My 4123

[dryfountain123]

I'd like to share my last versión of a 4123 which provided me some results.

The general idea of the tactic is to play a possession strategy, low risk. I don't want to see my players doing strange things: everybody keep his role and play simple. In order to score goals, my tactic should provide different patterns of play and variety of chances, reserving creativity and risks for the upfront and more talented players.

Tactics and preferred eleven:

Gk: A simple gk

CD: simple cb

Right fb: Cover flank, and stay back. I thought about using FB(d) but it may créate big gap between him and my W.

Left fb: Provide width down the letf flank.

A: defend, screen cd and play simple passes

Cm(at): like a shadow striker but in the cm strata. Score goals and track back to help midfield to win the ball back.

AP(su): the creator of the team. Assists is what I expect from him

W: run, dribble, cross

IF: Cut inside, assists and goals

AF: lead our offence, score goals.

 

Player instructions

GK: distribute to fb

both fb, less risky passes

 

I want my team to play selectively and methodically so I chose Defend mentality because it is low risk, slow patient build up. Structured shape so my players stick to their roles&duties and reserve creativity and risky things to my upfront players.

 

Team Instructions:

- Defend mentality has some direct passing at back so to counteract this I selected play out the defense. It reinforces my idea of playing slow, low risk build up.

- Work ball into box. I want to be patient, I don't want long shots or speculative crosses.

- Push higher up. Defend mentality has Deep defensive line, so to counteract this I pushed it a bit higher.

- Dribble less. I just want to dribble more my upfront players (IF, W, AF) who have hardcoded dribble more PI

 

First season:

 

Excellent results. Best team a part of big 3. I played (and lost in penalties against FCP and Sporting) final of both national Cup tournaments.

 

 

[djpdavey]

Do you know why you lost your 8 games? were they close games? Just interested in your analysis and weak points of your tactic and how you are looking to address this. 

[FMunderachiever]

13 minutes ago, djpdavey said:

Do you know why you lost your 8 games? were they close games? Just interested in your analysis and weak points of your tactic and how you are looking to address this. 

He lost 3?

[summatsupeer]

1 minute ago, FMunderachiever said:

He lost 3?

He's Portimonense so @djpdavey is correct with 8.  He also said he lost to FCP in final so definitely not them though they are highlighted blue like his team so understand the confusion.

[FMunderachiever]

1 minute ago, summatsupeer said:

He's Portimonense so @djpdavey is correct with 8.  He also said he lost to FCP in final so definitely not them though they are highlighted blue like his team so understand the confusion.

Ah sorry, should have looked closer

[summatsupeer]

@dryfountain123 are you just sharing the tactic?  if so it should go in the tactic sharing area.  If you want advice then what issues do you see happening?

[dryfountain123]

hace 8 horas, summatsupeer dijo:

@dryfountain123 are you just sharing the tactic?  if so it should go in the tactic sharing area.  If you want advice then what issues do you see happening?

No, by no means I'd share this tactic. It only gave me some results.

I'm severely struggling with the game. I always start very well until my performances drop and I never can't turn things around.

Fact is before that, I'm adjusting my tactic, making small tweaks to adapt to the match. Eventually, my team collapses and so I do.

With the tactic I posted, it's obviously slow and patient. This was my purpose and it's fine. Sometimes I see we are too slow and then I increase tempo or I change mentality. It Works very well.

In other cases, I see my defensive line too Deep and I just push it higher. I'm happy with my defense in general terms, we struggle against big tall strikers but it's caused mainly by personal at my disposal I think.

Problem comes when what I've been doing stops working. I run out of ideas and in all honesty i don't know what to try.

What specific issues I see happening? Nothing particular, it's just everything wrong. Where we had a patient build up now we have rushed decisions and hoofed balls by my cd, my players taking long shots. I can't create chances and I concede very easily. My defenders are like ghosts,...

One thing that shocks me is something that I initally thought was an indivual mistake but it's happening almost in every match. Opposition defenders try a long pass which goes straight to my cd. In that precise moment, my cd make a forward run (they are not instructed to play offside trap) and leave their striker all alone.

First time I saw it I said WTF are you doing. Next time I was like mmm... Now is happening almost every match, it seems something is wrong. I tried dropping my defensive line (if that makes any sense) but still happens. It's very very strange.

 

[summatsupeer]

The main thing that stands out to me is the balance of the roles.  Your back 4 and DM is pretty cautious but your front 5 are all more risk takers.  This is before even considering your on defensive + structured.  Moving the ball slowly due to deep roles, play out of defence, dribble less plus the low risk will give opponents time to get back and organized so by the time the players you want to take some risk get it they're outnumbered and likely running into dead ends.

I think this is especially true for the AF who looks isolated. Against teams who try to keep a high line he could have some success.  But if they drop deep I'm not seeing much space being created, especially before the AP tries to play a through ball or one of the front 3 run with it or the winger crosses it. 

Are a lot of your goals scored from counter attacks? Defending deep and having 3 fast forwards i could see them doing well even though you have AML+amr rather than ml+Mr.

While you say you want the forwards to be the ones taking risks I think your expecting a lot from them, against organized defences with little support but lots of cover.

To play more possession style id expect a support duty forward to drop and help advance the ball rather than focusing on trying to run in behind and I certainly wouldn't expect a winger.

[dryfountain123]

hace 5 horas, summatsupeer dijo:

The main thing that stands out to me is the balance of the roles.  Your back 4 and DM is pretty cautious but your front 5 are all more risk takers.  This is before even considering your on defensive + structured.  Moving the ball slowly due to deep roles, play out of defence, dribble less plus the low risk will give opponents time to get back and organized so by the time the players you want to take some risk get it they're outnumbered and likely running into dead ends.

I think this is especially true for the AF who looks isolated. Against teams who try to keep a high line he could have some success.  But if they drop deep I'm not seeing much space being created, especially before the AP tries to play a through ball or one of the front 3 run with it or the winger crosses it. 

Are a lot of your goals scored from counter attacks? Defending deep and having 3 fast forwards i could see them doing well even though you have AML+amr rather than ml+Mr.

While you say you want the forwards to be the ones taking risks I think your expecting a lot from them, against organized defences with little support but lots of cover.

To play more possession style id expect a support duty forward to drop and help advance the ball rather than focusing on trying to run in behind and I certainly wouldn't expect a winger.

My idea was to concéntrate creativity and risks in my front 5. I don't want my players to do strange things, so my defenders must just pass short to the closer teammate until we can get the ball to "attackers". Hence the Structured shape.

While my back 4 and dm are cautious, this is exactly what I want, and I have a fb on attack to provide width. One of my ideas was to have width provided by winger (right) and fb (left).

Against defensive teams, it Works quite well. They sit back while I have 60+% possession. I don't créate lots of chances but at least 1-2 to score 1 goal. If they score first, I'm dead, it's true... And that's the root cause of my problems.

As matches go by, I started dropping some of the instructions, following the same reasoning tan you but I don't see major changes. Missplaced passes, long shots everywhere… My midfielders don't win the ball back, there are huge spaces between my fb and cd....

I don't score many goals from counters. Most of my goals are ball to the winger, dribble, cross. If my winger has an off day, I'm lost.

My AF is completely isolated, if he doesn't score, he does absolutely nothing. I tried giving him a supportive role, but then there is nobody to finish crosses inside the box.

I ran out of ideas so I tried changing my formation to a 4411, with AP in the AM strata, A as a cm(d), cm(a) changed duty to support, and the IF as a wm(s). Now my AP is marked out of the game and my AF still isolated. My winger starts from a deeper position and I don't know if that's good or bad. I see a lot of passes intercepted from my cm(s) to w(a). Or missplaced. Connection fails between them. My wm(s) is too wide, despite I told him to sit narrower, he is not a realistic passing option. My cm(s) and ap(s) are moving in the same spaces, a lot of times are exactly in the same positions or, even worse, roles are reversed: while I'd expect my AM to be a creator and cm(s) a runner, they do the opposite: AP making forward runs and cm(s) trying to organize my attacks.

My defenders are still ghosting, it's like there is no material presence. It's very strange.

I came back to my 4123 and results are more or less the same. While they are not bad, they are just ok. I think I could be doing better, much better. Lots of times I drop points against much weaker teams and when facing strong oposition I'm just destroyed.

 

 

 

[dryfountain123]

hace 5 horas, Millsinho dijo:

I think summatsupeer makes some very good points about the balance of the roles.

You’re clearly getting good results, so I’m in no way suggesting I know better, but in case it helps here are the roles and duties I’m using for a system based more on movement and space creation, as opposed to counter attack.

It’s all about how the roles work together to form something greater than the sum of its parts. In my case I decided I wanted an attack minded Mezzala, so this was my starting point and I built the team around this role. The right winger stays wide to occupy the fullback and give the Mezzela the space he needs in the channel, and the CF drops deep and roams from his position enabling the MEZ to get beyond him and use the space he vacates. My CF dropping deep means he doesn’t offer as much off-the-ball penetration, so the Raumdeauter helps with this by again using the space vacated and looking to get forward more. The CM then acts as a simpler supporting player to help link everything together.

In defence, I have three conservative roles supporting and covering from counters while the WB gets forward to give penetration from deep and offer width on the left while the Raumdeuter sits narrower, and the Regista gives the guys making penetrating runs the supply they need.

 

I don't like the idea of having a creative player in the DM strata. I want somebody focused on screening the defense but, well, it's something I haven't tried so I'll try it.

[summatsupeer]

Focus more on the roles and duties.  Defensive mentality will make them safer, look at the mentality bar on the players instruction screen.  For example a DM-S whilst doesn't have a lot of instructions to be low risk, in Defensive+Structured he will be, your using a A-D in that system so taking to extremes.   Stop looking at the players in isolation, "this player gives width, this player scores, this player creates" that doesn't look at how they combine to do those things.

Your creator is going to move to collect the ball due to being a AP-S but half your team are just going to watch and cover the AP once he gets it so whats are his options?  Well he can't dribble with it so has to look for a pass, no one is really moving to help him from deep, they'll be covering him, FB-A will still be cautious so won't get forward till later, FB-S will be deep unless its really safe for him to go forward.  To play through the AF or W-S who will be far away will be speculative so just leaves IF-S or CM-A.  Possession is about using the ball well, having support and options.  Whilst you say you want a possession style, you then isolate players talking about width or not having a target for crosses.

It doesn't matter if the AP-S starts in MC or AMC as thats his defensive position, when you get the ball he still moves to collect the ball and no one else really gets up to help the AF-A who stays high.

[dryfountain123]

hace 1 hora, summatsupeer dijo:

Focus more on the roles and duties.  Defensive mentality will make them safer, look at the mentality bar on the players instruction screen.  For example a DM-S whilst doesn't have a lot of instructions to be low risk, in Defensive+Structured he will be, your using a A-D in that system so taking to extremes.   Stop looking at the players in isolation, "this player gives width, this player scores, this player creates" that doesn't look at how they combine to do those things.

Your creator is going to move to collect the ball due to being a AP-S but half your team are just going to watch and cover the AP once he gets it so whats are his options?  Well he can't dribble with it so has to look for a pass, no one is really moving to help him from deep, they'll be covering him, FB-A will still be cautious so won't get forward till later, FB-S will be deep unless its really safe for him to go forward.  To play through the AF or W-S who will be far away will be speculative so just leaves IF-S or CM-A.  Possession is about using the ball well, having support and options.  Whilst you say you want a possession style, you then isolate players talking about width or not having a target for crosses.

It doesn't matter if the AP-S starts in MC or AMC as thats his defensive position, when you get the ball he still moves to collect the ball and no one else really gets up to help the AF-A who stays high.

There are very advanced concepts which I struggle to visually fathom. Let me think about it and see what can I do.

[summatsupeer]

Have a look at some of the guides on this page.  Especially the style guides, they might give you some ideas how to implement what you want.

 

[dryfountain123]

hace 1 hora, summatsupeer dijo:

Have a look at some of the guides on this page.  Especially the style guides, they might give you some ideas how to implement what you want.

 

I know that guides and my tactic was expected to be based on them… Not a very succesfull atempt by me...

As I said,it's more a visual problem. While I understand theory, I struggle to decode what's happening during the match (from images to words and viceversa)

[dryfountain123]

Is it posible to tell your players "turn around and pass the ball back, there is no urgency to get forward if there are no passing options?"

[khodder]

2 hours ago, dryfountain123 said:

Is it posible to tell your players "turn around and pass the ball back, there is no urgency to get forward if there are no passing options?"

I believe you could acheive this somewhat by lowering mentality and asking said player to "hold up ball" though the second part of that I'm less sure about.

[dryfountain123]

I moved to this:

I dropped all TI, went to standard. Start from scratch was my intention.

 I honestly ignore what visually means "créate space". I struggle to understand this concept.

I'm still in a downward spiral, I concede lots of chances and hardly ever créate. It's even worse than before: I can't defend and most of my attacks come to nothing.

I simply can't keep possession, I'm always around 40%. All the time missplaced passes and long shots. My cd are still making forward runs. My winger cuts inside and moves narrow, instead of staying wide. The same does my left fb. Both are supposed to provide width...

My striker is all the time dispossesed. My playmaker tries all the time killer nobody. My cd hoof the ball all the time.

I win some matches scoring that lucky opening goal and then sit back. If my defenders behave, we can win. Otherwise, we are done.

 

 

[facman]

On 10/07/2018 at 22:09, dryfountain123 said:

 I honestly ignore what visually means "créate space". I struggle to understand this concept.

My cd are still making forward runs. My winger cuts inside and moves narrow, instead of staying wide. The same does my left fb. Both are supposed to provide width...

My playmaker tries all the time killer nobody. My cd hoof the ball all the time.

 

Let's look at a few of those things in isolation.

Space: Imagine I am a winger, and you are marking me. I make a run up the touchline and you follow, because that is your job. Behind me is a huge amount of space I have created, that can be occupied by one of my teammates. That is what people mean by "creating space" - using movement of players to drag defenders out of the way. You can look at the roles and duties you assign to your players to work out what sort of movement they will make on the pitch, and whether or not that will create space, or if they will be running into each other. You can draw it on a piece of paper

CD making forward runs: Do your defenders have any PPMs to bring the ball out of defence, or run with the ball? You could go into the PI page for those positions and tick the Hold Position PI to 'lock' them down.

Winger and FB cutting inside: Look at their PPMs. I have an Attacking midfielder/Striker in my team with the PPM 'Comes Deep to Get Ball'. This is great if I want him in a striker role where he links with the midfield, but terrible if I want him to lead the strike force on the shoulder of the last defender. Do either of your players want to cut inside due to PPMs?

CD hoof the ball: This can happen with defenders, and I tend to try to compensate for this by using the TI 'Play Out of Defence' or using the PI 'Fewer Risky Passes' on my CDs. This will reduce the amount of time they hit long hopeful balls.

Playmaker tries killer pass: That is what the Playmaker is supposed to do! The problem is that if there isn't good movement then there won't be anyone to pass to. Why not play without a playmaker? My most successful formation of my own creation was a 4-4-2 in FM16 which was Defensive/Fluid and had no playmakers (It starter with a WP on the right of midfield, but that role enede up being changed to Winger). That system took Leeds from the Championship to the Premiership title and Champions League knockout stages in 5 seasons. Why not try increasing your shape to Fluid to bring your players closer together and increase overall creativity, changing the AP to a CM(S) and seeing whether the passing improves?

[dryfountain123]

hace 3 horas, facman dijo:

CD making forward runs: Do your defenders have any PPMs to bring the ball out of defence, or run with the ball? You could go into the PI page for those positions and tick the Hold Position PI to 'lock' them down.

Hold position is hardcoded for cd. They make forward runs as explained below:

En ‎06‎/‎07‎/‎2018 a las 23:58, dryfountain123 dijo:

One thing that shocks me is something that I initally thought was an indivual mistake but it's happening almost in every match. Opposition defenders try a long pass which goes straight to my cd. In that precise moment, my cd make a forward run (they are not instructed to play offside trap) and leave their striker all alone.

First time I saw it I said WTF are you doing. Next time I was like mmm... Now is happening almost every match, it seems something is wrong. I tried dropping my defensive line (if that makes any sense) but still happens. It's very very strange.

 

hace 3 horas, facman dijo:

Winger and FB cutting inside: Look at their PPMs.

They have no PPM's. This was the first thing I checked before setting the role.

hace 3 horas, facman dijo:

CD hoof the ball: This can happen with defenders, and I tend to try to compensate for this by using the TI 'Play Out of Defence' or using the PI 'Fewer Risky Passes' on my CDs. This will reduce the amount of time they hit long hopeful balls.

This is exactly what I was already doing and they were hoofing the ball. I removed that instructions and are doing the same.

 

hace 3 horas, facman dijo:

laymaker tries killer pass: That is what the Playmaker is supposed to do! The problem is that if there isn't good movement then there won't be anyone to pass to. Why not play without a playmaker? My most successful formation of my own creation was a 4-4-2 in FM16 which was Defensive/Fluid and had no playmakers (It starter with a WP on the right of midfield, but that role enede up being changed to Winger). That system took Leeds from the Championship to the Premiership title and Champions League knockout stages in 5 seasons. Why not try increasing your shape to Fluid to bring your players closer together and increase overall creativity, changing the AP to a CM(S) and seeing whether the passing improves?

It's good to try killer balls… as long as they are for your teammates. He is all the time passing the ball to the opponent, literally, he has the ball and passes it to the opponent, despite having other much obvious passing options.

I already increased my shape from Structured to flexible. I could go to fluid, I'll try.

I've already tried not to use a playmaker and nothing changed.

 

i can't créate chances. Opponents créate tons. Things are getting worse and worse, my team plays worse and worse… Now my players have decided to assist the opponents to score: one of my players, all alone with no pressure, decides to pass the ball to the closest opponent so he can run and score, because, naturally, my defenders won't move or Will miss the tackle.

 

[dryfountain123]

hace 3 horas, facman dijo:

Space: Imagine I am a winger, and you are marking me. I make a run up the touchline and you follow, because that is your job. Behind me is a huge amount of space I have created, that can be occupied by one of my teammates. That is what people mean by "creating space" - using movement of players to drag defenders out of the way. You can look at the roles and duties you assign to your players to work out what sort of movement they will make on the pitch, and whether or not that will create space, or if they will be running into each other. You can draw it on a piece of paper

I understand what you say but I have no idea how to use it, particularlly, because I don't see my players doing specifically nothing: the move without the minor sense, not following any pattern or instruction I give them (winger cut inside, moves centrally, e.g.)

[dryfountain123]

I can't score goals.

I've tried everything and I can't score. I can't tell you why, but I can't créate chances, all the decisions my players take are wrong. When they have to shot they pass, if they have to pass they shot...

I don't know why my results dropped so much. I've won 2 of the last 10 games, I've scored 15 goals in 15 matches. I'm still in 2nd position because I won a lot of matches before.

It's my fourth season and it seems my team can't play decently. I've changed my formation, roles, duties, instructions… accordingly to what you said and I can't créate chances. I simply can't and I can't tell you why.

I ignore what to do know. I'm infront my laptop without any constructive idea, i'll play a match and lose it, simply.

I'm completely lost. What would you do?

[westy8chimp]

hi @dryfountain123 has much changed since the OP?

The roles/duties look ok to me in isolation (not my choice, but certainly no reason to not be scoring goals or winning your fair share of games).

Lack of goals can be attributed to 'work ball into box', negating the strengths of your winger and AF, slowing play down when you are already on a low risk mentality. Defensive mentality... perhaps over cautious... especially as you have a bottom heavy formation.

Are you a top table club, mid table, or relegation candidate? That would affect how the opponent lines  up and whether you can afford to take more risk

@Elitee raised a post about the same formation recently, by taking a step back and re-assessing what he is trying to achieve he had a quick turn around. Was good advice from other users in his thread too.

https://community.sigames.com/topic/439906-advice-needed-on-scoring-more-goals/

 

[dryfountain123]

I've tried many things so this is just an example...

My team is expected to end top 5. You'll see I'm first but it's because first part of the season was excellent. I can't score now, it's like there is a Wall and I can't.

But I can't even créate chances or move the ball with a mínimum of intelligence. It's like we do nothing, pass here pass there, ball intercepted. Unsuccessful cross, long shot, dribble missed… Obvious passing option, I shot or try an imposible pass nowhere.

 

 

[Robson 07]

How far into the season are you?  Teams may be setting up in a certain way to frustrate you.

Control & Very Fluid will be fast paced swarming a lot of players forward and perhaps you're losing shape + control (even though you are on control); getting overcrowded in the final third.  You may find more space by playing with a lower line or a different team shape.

[dryfountain123]

hace 16 horas, Robson 07 dijo:

How far into the season are you?  Teams may be setting up in a certain way to frustrate you.

Control & Very Fluid will be fast paced swarming a lot of players forward and perhaps you're losing shape + control (even though you are on control); getting overcrowded in the final third.  You may find more space by playing with a lower line or a different team shape.

Sure they are playing defensive, both fullbacks staying back all times. I'll try dropping my defensive line and lowering shape to flexible.

[summatsupeer]

20 hours ago, dryfountain123 said:

Just looking at this, that front 5 is full of very risky roles regardless of team mentality & shape.  AP-S will collect deep and look for a through ball.  MEZ-A is trying to make runs and also looking for through balls.  W-S will collect and try and run with it or cross it.  RMD-A will tend to be high, if not in a shooting position he's most likely of the 5 to play it simple.  CF-S will try and do a bit of everything.

Then add in that your team plays pushed up, high pressing with risk (Control) and is quite shallow (Very Fluid with a support duty forward) it could lack space for runners when you have such a focus on penetration.

20 hours ago, dryfountain123 said:

But I can't even créate chances or move the ball with a mínimum of intelligence. It's like we do nothing, pass here pass there, ball intercepted. Unsuccessful cross, long shot, dribble missed… Obvious passing option, I shot or try an imposible pass nowhere.

Sounds like you need to add some patience into the team, less focus on forward play and risky actions so they can consider there options and have a wider choice. 

Crossing will likely depend on how good your ST is in the box or if the RMD is good at winning it at the back post.

 

[dryfountain123]

hace 48 minutos, summatsupeer dijo:

Just looking at this, that front 5 is full of very risky roles regardless of team mentality & shape.  AP-S will collect deep and look for a through ball.  MEZ-A is trying to make runs and also looking for through balls.  W-S will collect and try and run with it or cross it.  RMD-A will tend to be high, if not in a shooting position he's most likely of the 5 to play it simple.  CF-S will try and do a bit of everything.

Then add in that your team plays pushed up, high pressing with risk (Control) and is quite shallow (Very Fluid with a support duty forward) it could lack space for runners when you have such a focus on penetration.

Sounds like you need to add some patience into the team, less focus on forward play and risky actions so they can consider there options and have a wider choice. 

Crossing will likely depend on how good your ST is in the box or if the RMD is good at winning it at the back post.

 

Not that I want your validation before trying anything but I'd like to be sure I'm getting the idea, at least:

Here I think I have a good balance between:

- Aggressive roles: Winger and SS running at defense and looking for through balls. AP collecting the ball and trying through balls having one player running on the left and another player running on the right

- Supportive roles: Wm and DF, again for the playmaker to choose if he wants to play safe on the left (wm), safe on the right-center (df) or risky as above described.

- A fb surging from Deep, offering width an another "risky" option for the playmaker or even the wm.

- Cautious mentality and TI, to avoid rushed decisions while we are still incisive according to the roles. Play out defense because counter mentality has direct passes at back, push higher up because the defensive line may be too Deep and too much space between defense and midfield. Dribble less because winger and SS are already dribbling a lot.

 

 

[summatsupeer]

2 hours ago, dryfountain123 said:

Not that I want your validation before trying anything but I'd like to be sure I'm getting the idea, at least:

Here I think I have a good balance between:

- Aggressive roles: Winger and SS running at defense and looking for through balls. AP collecting the ball and trying through balls having one player running on the left and another player running on the right

- Supportive roles: Wm and DF, again for the playmaker to choose if he wants to play safe on the left (wm), safe on the right-center (df) or risky as above described.

- A fb surging from Deep, offering width an another "risky" option for the playmaker or even the wm.

- Cautious mentality and TI, to avoid rushed decisions while we are still incisive according to the roles. Play out defense because counter mentality has direct passes at back, push higher up because the defensive line may be too Deep and too much space between defense and midfield. Dribble less because winger and SS are already dribbling a lot.

 

 

Looks fine to me if it fits your players.  Might need a few tweaks but don't really know until you try it with your players.

[Robson 07]

Sorry, me again.

You just went from a 433 control-very fluid to in the next post, a 4411 counter-flexible and with a load of new roles.  Both tactics may or may not work but in my opinion you're no longer evolving one system.  I appreciate that maybe you took some advice from me, & some from @summatsupeer and maybe others but that may also be making the process harder as you are jumping about and making multiple changes at once.  Title of thread is "my 4123".  Think you should follow through on that line.  Apologies if I just came across curmudgeonly.

[dryfountain123]

hace 10 minutos, Robson 07 dijo:

Sorry, me again.

You just went from a 433 control-very fluid to in the next post, a 4411 counter-flexible and with a load of new roles.  Both tactics may or may not work but in my opinion you're no longer evolving one system.  I appreciate that maybe you took some advice from me, & some from @summatsupeer and maybe others but that may also be making the process harder as you are jumping about and making multiple changes at once.  Title of thread is "my 4123".  Think you should follow through on that line.  Apologies if I just came across curmudgeonly.

Well… All I can say is I had a playmaker in my 4123 and I moved him to the Am strata, and my dm to midfield strata. Then I changed some roles... and that's what we have now. 

I'd rather say my tactic somewhat evolved, it's not that I started everything from scratch.. But your point is still valid because I started with a 433 and now I'm close to a 442. 

Anyway, I think now I have a solid starting point and I would be honestly very thankful if you kept contributing.

;)

[dryfountain123]

En ‎19‎/‎07‎/‎2018 a las 21:23, summatsupeer dijo:

Looks fine to me if it fits your players.  Might need a few tweaks but don't really know until you try it with your players.

Here is where I fail… I have the general idea but when I go to something more detalied I fail.

I see my striker taking long shots, instead of holding the ball up. My wm the same. My AP is trying imposible to passes to nobody: these are not risky passes, they are just terrible ideas.

SS just dribbles dribbles and dribbles surrounded by 4 players.

Our passing is horrendous, never chosing the logical option, always weird decisions and bad execution.

Winger crosses to nobody, cuts inside and roams to central positions.

We can'tcontrol a match against a team playing two tiers below. No possession, no chances, no nothing.

This is the point where I fail. I can't recognize why my players are doing what they do. Or even worse, Ican't recognize what my players are doing so my whole analysis is wrong.

At this point, I'm lost. I don't know what to adjust, what to change, what to do. I just start thinking about another formation, starting almost from scratch comitting the mistake pointed by @Robson 07. I know that would be a bad idea, but honestly, I don't know what to do.

 

[summatsupeer]

10 hours ago, dryfountain123 said:

Here is where I fail… I have the general idea but when I go to something more detalied I fail.

I think the easiest thing to do is when you spot these end of moves, pause or go back a bit.  What is that player told to do? What options did he have?

For example the SS dribbling into dead ends, well a SS is told to dribble often and its unlikely he will have a risky pass option near him so will likely go it alone. Is this his fault or the roles near him?  Watch what happens and what you'd rather he do or what you'd rather have other players do to help him.

Maybe the WM needs to take more risks to get forward and give the SS another option earlier? Yes the DL is meant to be providing width but that's from deep and as your on counter might wait to get forward a little later when its safer rather than during transitions.  Maybe the SS could be a AM-A so he takes risks with his runs but not so much with passing or dribbling to allow other players to get up in support?

Focus on one issue at a time.  After hopefully improving that issue I'd look at the AP and consider if thats what you want him to do. Just from what you've said a CM-S or DLP-S might make him more careful.  Again when you see him trying those passe, pause it and look at what options he had and what fit the role he has.

Finally check the players attributes and traits.  If a player has tries through balls or runs with ball or tries long range passes etc that can make them try things that they might not be great at or that you want them to do in your tactic.  You'd have to training them out of it or replace them.

[herne79]

I'm confused.

A few days ago you were using a 4123DM formation, 1st in the league at the end of April 2022 (expected finish top 5).  Which is great.

Now you're playing a 442 in September 2018 ???

Why have you restarted?  What happened to the 4123?

[dryfountain123]

hace 52 minutos, herne79 dijo:

I'm confused.

A few days ago you were using a 4123DM formation, 1st in the league at the end of April 2022 (expected finish top 5).  Which is great.

Now you're playing a 442 in September 2018 ???

Why have you restarted?  What happened to the 4123?

 

En ‎20‎/‎07‎/‎2018 a las 0:23, dryfountain123 dijo:

Well… All I can say is I had a playmaker in my 4123 and I moved him to the Am strata, and my dm to midfield strata. Then I changed some roles... and that's what we have now. 

I'd rather say my tactic somewhat evolved, it's not that I started everything from scratch.. But your point is still valid because I started with a 433 and now I'm close to a 442. 

Anyway, I think now I have a solid starting point and I would be honestly very thankful if you kept contributing.

;)

 

[herne79]

@dryfountain123

That doesn't explain anything.  You were top of the league with just a couple of weeks of the 2022 season remaining using a 4123DM.

Why have you stopped playing that save and restarted?

[dryfountain123]

hace 5 minutos, herne79 dijo:

@dryfountain123

That doesn't explain anything.  You were top of the league with just a couple of weeks of the 2022 season remaining using a 4123DM.

Why have you stopped playing that save and restarted?

I stopped playing because I was afraid of being unable to turn it around. 

I really like this save and I do not want to lose it, so I reopened another just to try things, until I understand how to cope with the situation.

When I feel safe about what I do, I'll take it up again.

 

[Didaro]

1 minute ago, dryfountain123 said:

I stopped playing because I was afraid of being unable to turn it around. 

I really like this save and I do not want to lose it, so I reopened another just to try things, until I understand how to cope with the situation.

When I feel safe about what I do, I'll take it up again.

I think your biggest problem was the Advanced Playmaker. 

[westy8chimp]

If you are top with a few games left... Its unlikely to be a tactical issue in getting over the line, you may have a few key players struggling under the pressure. 

I'd go back to it and man manage those last few games properly (go defensive and give "concentrate" shout when you go a goal up... Go attacking with "demand more" id you go a goal down) 

[herne79]

14 minutes ago, dryfountain123 said:

I stopped playing because I was afraid of being unable to turn it around. 

I really like this save and I do not want to lose it, so I reopened another just to try things, until I understand how to cope with the situation.

When I feel safe about what I do, I'll take it up again.

 

Turn what around?  You were top of the league near the end of the season and only had an expectation of finishing top 5.  ok, you had a bad run of form, but you were still top with an expectation of finishing top 5.

This can be a common theme in threads - people sometimes forget to manage their own expectations, forgetting the large picture and just focussing on the last few matches.  Which is exactly what you've done here.  Whether you've had a recent bad run or not, overall you've had a cracking season.  You should be pleased.  Your system is clearly sound and perhaps with a few new additions to the squad in the summer you can push on again.

Just in terms of your bad run, any number of things could have happened such as: perhaps you had injuries to key players; maybe your players felt the pressure too much in the run in and cracked; maybe they got complacent or over confident; maybe you got complacent or over confident and didn't adapt to the match situations; maybe there were one or two tactical tweaks you could have tried; some / all of the above; something else entirely.

It's fine to restart and try other things of course, but a lot of this situation you're trying to understand is simply down to getting caught up in winning the league and hitting bad form, whilst forgetting the big picture of your season expectations.

[dryfountain123]

Results were good, that's right, but:

1. Most of my matches were 1-0, 0-1, even against much worse teams, playing one or 2 tiers lower (cup games). I really suffered to beat most of the teams.

2. My striker, who is super top for my level, scored 4 goals in the whole season.

3. My results were based on an untenable rock solid defense. Once I started conceding a normal amount of goals,  mostly the odd goal here and there, results dropped because I was unable to change the Flow of the game. Instead of 1-0 I had 1-1and I didn't know how to make my team more dangerous.

Most of my wins were scoring 1 goal and then sitting Deep, which is fine if you are underdog, but when heavy favourites I feel I need something different, not because my results are bad overall but because I expect my team to get wider margins, créate more chances, dominate more the games… If I want to make it in the next level I need a more powerful attack and sure it's not my players fault because I already signed an excellent striker and a couple of attacking minded midfielders who should be making the difference.

 

 

[herne79]

7 minutes ago, dryfountain123 said:

Results were good, that's right, but:

1. Most of my matches were 1-0, 0-1, even against much worse teams, playing one or 2 tiers lower (cup games). I really suffered to beat most of the teams.

2. My striker, who is super top for my level, scored 4 goals in the whole season.

3. My results were based on an untenable rock solid defense. Once I started conceding a normal amount of goals,  mostly the odd goal here and there, results dropped because I was unable to change the Flow of the game. Instead of 1-0 I had 1-1and I didn't know how to make my team more dangerous.

You're still not thinking in overall terms.  In Portugal, the challenge is to break the dominance of the top 3 or 4 teams.  Winning the league is just a bonus.  You're at the end of the 19/20 season playing as Portimonense battling not for a top 5 finish (your Board's expectations) but for the league title itself.  That's fantastic !  Stop putting so much pressure on yourself - you have had a brilliant season.  So what if you only win 1-0?!?  Who do you think are, Benfica?  Porto?  Come on, ease up on yourself and give yourself a pat on the back.  To even be in that position with that club after just a couple of seasons is a massive achievement in that league.

12 minutes ago, dryfountain123 said:

Most of my wins were scoring 1 goal and then sitting Deep, which is fine if you are underdog, but when heavy favourites I feel I need something different, not because my results are bad overall but because I expect my team to get wider margins, créate more chances, dominate more the games…

Again, you expect.  Nobody else is.  You are the one putting yourself under this pressure but you are failing to realise just how fantastically well you are doing.  Stop being so hard on yourself.  Why should you expect to win by wider margins?  Again, do you think you are Benfica?  It's a good thing to have ambition but being overly ambitious in too short a period of time is leading to your over expectations.  You're trying to run before you can walk.

14 minutes ago, dryfountain123 said:

If I want to make it in the next level I need a more powerful attack and sure it's not my players fault because I already signed an excellent striker and a couple of attacking minded midfielders who should be making the difference.

The 4123DM formation is a good formation to use.  You've already proven that because you've taken little Portimonense to the top of the league.  I'm sure with one or two tweaks and one or two personnel changes the system could be improved.  Equally though if you want to explore other tactical options that's perfectly fine.  Just stop forgetting who you are playing as and the challenge which that in itself brings .

[dryfountain123]

With this:

and sometimes moving mentality to standard, I've found tremendous success, being able to unlock parked buses.

On the other hand, I have a more cautious 4141 which I use in more difficult matches/away/when I want to hold a lead that it's still rock solid at back.

I feel now confident to come back to my initial save and resume it.

 

 

[dryfountain123]

I came back to my initial save and unfortunately after a very good run (15 consecutive wins), my team stopped playing and now I can't win a single match. 

I can't tell why. Terrible defensive mistakes, constant penalties against, I'm conceding lots of goals (almost 3 per game). I even came back to my security tactic 4141 and I'm conceding the same. Or more.

My players pass the ball to the opponent all the time: it's not that passes are intercepted, it's my players passing the ball straight to the opponent.

I don't know what's going on… Teams were already playing defensive against me and I could beat them. Other teams, who attacked me, I could stop them with my security tactic and adjusting it according to the opponent. Now, it's simply imposible. 

I don't know, I really don't know.

DOes this happen to you? it's like a different team, we can't string 3 passes together, always choosing the weirdest and most terrible option: shooting from distance when there are obvious passing options, passing the ball when it's time to shoot, passing the ball to the opponent, etc..