team shape - in english, please!

[difran8]

2 hours ago, herne79 said:

Some of you are still spending far too much time worrying about minute player mentality changes as Team Shape changes.  Unless you are seriously into min/maxing (in which case you really don't need such numbers anyway), these small movements are largely irrelevant.  I've said it before in this thread - Team Shape affects creative freedom and space.  Forget about player mentality and you'll have a much easier time.

So it's better if i stop considering altering team shape as a means to fix tactic issues?  Or at least move it way down in the ladder of possible tactical changes/fixes i can apply?

[sacchi]

5 hours ago, herne79 said:

ok I was afraid of this.

I've hidden that post.  Measuring a bar with a ruler and posting results in a thread can do more harm than good.  There is a reason we moved away from 1-20 slider scales after FM13, so lets not go back to it please .

People looking at defined scales of numbers and don't realise those numbers are merely an opinion based on a ruler placed on a computer screen could get the wrong idea.  You can't come up with numbers and then present them de facto into a thread.

Some of you are still spending far too much time worrying about minute player mentality changes as Team Shape changes.  Unless you are seriously into min/maxing (in which case you really don't need such numbers anyway), these small movements are largely irrelevant.  I've said it before in this thread - Team Shape affects creative freedom and space.  Forget about player mentality and you'll have a much easier time.

It wasn't me who put that bar on the PI screen, it was SI. And I doubt they did it to show random bs and to mislead the users.

My numbers weren't opinion based, nor pulled them out of my ***, they were a careful and correct translation of the bar into a 1-20 scale. And I only posted them after somebody asked.

One of the common short explanation of team shape is that it is a CF/mentality allocation tool. Yet now you say forget about player mentality...

It's a common belief that on Very Fluid all players have the same mentality. Looks like not true. Or that on Fluid there is a 5/5 split. Looks like far off.

Huge mistery, that team shape...

Sorry if I'm annoying. (I'm annoyed too, by the fact that I don't exactly know what instructions I'm giving to my players.)

[herne79]

ok, put it another way.  Lets assume for  second you are correct and there is a 2 point difference in your striker's mentality between Very Structured and Flexible, or between Flexible and Very Fluid.

What does that actually mean?  What noticeable difference in player mentality only, do you actually observe in your striker's behaviour on the pitch during matches?

This is why I say there is no real need (min/maxers aside) to get so wrapped up in player mentality changes as you adjust Team Shape.  The differences are so small that even to the trained eye become hard to spot.

On the other hand, team compactness and creative freedom differences are far more observable.

So, by all means keep half an eye on the player mentality bar if you really want to get into the enth degree of detail, but I'd honestly recommend you focus your energies on observing changes to creative freedom and team compactness.  Personally I'd completely forgotten there was even a bar showing player mentality - which goes to shows how much time I spend thinking about the impact of Team Shape on it.

[Tyballs]

Hey. People are different. Some need to have fact presented as numbers to grasp a mechanism others can understand from seeing the wheels turn. Some analyse their games from stats, some from prozone snd some from watching games. It would be great to be able to switch of or on some graphics or numbers. There should at least be some indication of the level of creative freesom. 

[summatsupeer]

Sorry, I started with the numbers as I was interested how Duty interacted with Team Shape, how accurate the in game descriptions are and if I was correctly explaining the interaction.  In the end having X-Y-Z mentality values doesn't make it "right", what you see happening on the pitch is most important.

My summary would be:

• In game descriptions are out of date.
• Very Fluid makes most of your support players have the same mentality.  Duty has a small effect to create roughly 3 groups close together.
• Each step of team shape towards Very Structured drops the deeper players in your formation more and pushes up the advanced positioned players more.  Duty has a slightly larger effect each step, defend duty drops more and attack duty pushes up more.

[kevin3]

5 hours ago, herne79 said:

ok, put it another way.  Lets assume for  second you are correct and there is a 2 point difference in your striker's mentality between Very Structured and Flexible, or between Flexible and Very Fluid.

What does that actually mean?  What noticeable difference in player mentality only, do you actually observe in your striker's behaviour on the pitch during matches?

A 2 point difference in player mentalities is exactly how team shape/team compactness worked in previous FMs so it's understandable that users would look at player mentalities to understand different team shapes.

From FM12, here are the differences in mentalities between Very Rigid and Very Fluid. Remember mentality directly altered team shape. 

Very Rigid               Very Fluid

 

Do different player mentalities still affect team shape or is it now something else?

[pedrosantos]

1 hour ago, summatsupeer said:

 

My summary would be:

• In game descriptions are out of date.

and the main source for so many misunderstandings

[sacchi]

8 hours ago, herne79 said:

I'd honestly recommend you focus your energies on observing changes to creative freedom and team compactness. 

I feel like I'm at a good place with these two already. (Even if everybody believes I'm )

 Now I will keep testing with my focus on player movements and closing down / def. transition. And when I'm done in 2 or 3 months, I can finally start a real save. 

 

3 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

what you see happening on the pitch is most important.

The nr.1 rule of this game.

[pedrosantos]

On 10/08/2016 at 02:56, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Team Shape is an area of the game I find really fascinating and one of the most important components of creating a successful tactic.

I have most experience playing with Fluid and Very Fluid shapes, and they're fairly easy to explain.

Very Fluid

Key points:

• Players attack and defend as a single unit
• Free-flowing football with high creative freedom

What does this mean in FM?

• Players individual mentalities have a low deviation from the team mentality
• Every player is given high creative freedom

What are the implications for the rest of your system?

• Be wary of unbalanced mentalities - selecting attack / defend will give all players attacking / defensive mentalities. For example, a DC(D) in a Very Fluid & Attacking system has a higher mentality than a DC(D) in a Flexible & Attacking system.
• You need players with well-rounded attributes. Defenders must be comfortable on the ball and attackers must be hard working to help defence.
• You don't necessarily need many / any playmakers as your entire team has higher creative freedom so shares the burden. (see wwfan's TT&F guide)

Synergies:

• Very fluid is a nice compact system and your attackers help in defence so it works particularly will with high pressing.
• Standard mentality helps add balance to a very fluid system. This is where I'd recommend starting, if you're struggling.
• For me, Very Fluid & Attack is suicide and Very Fluid & Defend/Counter is van Gaal.

Real life examples:

• Dutch / Ajax Total Football
• Pep Guardiola's Barcelona / Bayern.
• Arrigo Sacchi's Milan

 

Fluid

Key points:

• Your team is now divided into broad attacking and defensive units with the entire team contributing to the transition.
• As with Very Fluid, you play free-flowing football with high creative freedom.

What does this mean in FM?

• Your team is less compact but you now have separate units responsible for attacking or defending.
• You still have a high creative freedom.

What are the implications for the rest of your system?

• Dividing the team into two units opens up a broader range of mentalities such as attack, control, defend or counter because you can assign players into the attack or defensive unit to balance the system.
• Individual player roles (particularly duties) become more important.
• Players on support roles are assigned an individual mentality based on your team mentality.
• You'll still want generally well-rounded players but can perhaps afford a few specialists now - playmakers, ball winners etc.

Real Life examples:

• Lots. Any team playing a group of attacking players balanced by a defensive core.
• Arsene Wenger's Invincibles (more recently Arsenal have rather unsuccessfully moved towards Very Fluid)
• Many famous Brazil teams
• Real Madrid's galacticos

Both of these play great football, but I hope the above can show the differences. Very Fluid uses Team Mentality to create balance whereas Fluid uses player duties.

I am not really in a position to comment on the other team shapes as my understanding is not as clear.

Do you think with Guardiola defenders, including CDs, have high creative freedom ? I remember some player from Barcelona stating that Guardiola allowed freedom with the ball, but none without it. Can this be emulated in FM ?

[Dr. Hook]

On 8/11/2016 at 11:07, sacchi said:

Now I will keep testing with my focus on player movements and closing down / def. transition. And when I'm done in 2 or 3 months, I can finally start a real save. 

By then FM17 will be out and it will have changed again

[sacchi]

4 hours ago, Dr. Hook said:

By then FM17 will be out and it will have changed again

Thankfully the older versions don't get banned when the newest is released.

 

My daily funny vision: PPMs are most powerful on Structured. 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

On 10 August 2016 at 00:48, ianscousemac said:

Ö-zil to the Arsenal!  I really enjoyed the way your have wrote about the fluid and very fluid team shape.  I think its really useful when being able to compare them to real life teams.  Thanks for your input.

You're welcome!

[summatsupeer]

On 8/11/2016 at 17:09, pedrosantos said:

Do you think with Guardiola defenders, including CDs, have high creative freedom ? I remember some player from Barcelona stating that Guardiola allowed freedom with the ball, but none without it. Can this be emulated in FM ?

I remember reading/watching that Guardiola has a quite methodical system to move the ball forward, but once in the final third he allows the players a lot of freedom to create chances.  It's not really possible to do that in the current ME as you apply freedom to players not zones.

[Blarry]

1 hour ago, summatsupeer said:

I remember reading/watching that Guardiola has a quite methodical system to move the ball forward, but once in the final third he allows the players a lot of freedom to create chances.  It's not really possible to do that in the current ME as you apply freedom to players not zones.

That's the paradox we have to cope with - there's too many variables bound into too few settings. 

It's good that you brought up Guardiola. By vertical positioning as well as "total football" contribution of the whole team, his play style is all Very Fluid. But in terms of positioning and the allowed deviation from a player's position in relation to the ball, he's playing as structured as football ever gets.

It makes no sense tieing behavioral instructions to basic positioning.

[goalash]

So, 2 years (nearly) have passed and we're back at it, are we? Or is it just me.

I have reread through all the posts in this discussion, which gave some solid understanding of the shape concept, or rather: what the shape concept used to be back then.

Anyway, it's 2018 now, new game's out. I''m reviving the topic, as I have just bought it few days ago and found myself still not getting fluidity - maybe not at all, but in practice.

Please take a look at the statements below and mark them as true or false.

1. With the Standard mentality, I have selected the Fluid shape, because my defenders seem good at more midfield-based skills, as passing, technique and flair, and my midfielders seem good at more attacking skills, as off the ball, flair and finishing. Y/N
2. With the Standard mentality, I have selected the Rigid shape, because my defenders won't do me any good in more offensive aspects of the game, and my midfielders ale also unlikely to make any difference up front. Y/N
3. With the Control mentality, I have selected the Rigid shape, as I don't want all my team to take the more risky approach and I want at least my defenders to be more careful. Y/N
4. With the Control mentality, I have selected the Fluid shape, as the time runs out, the match's still tied, and I don't want to push the Mentality bar higher to Attacking; I'd rather tell my team to be Controlish as a whole, making it a bit more risky. Y/N
5. With the Counter mentality, I have selected the Rigid shape, as I'm cautious towards the match, but also don't want to overdo it - I want my front to be focused on attacking, whenever an opportunity arises. Y/N
6. With the Counter mentality, I have selected the Fluid shape, as the match draws to a close, I want to stay even more cautious and secure the draw. Y/N
7. With the Contain mentality, I have selected the Very Fluid shape, as I'm parking the bus, leading Brasil 1-0 as the New Zealand manager in the World Cup final. Y/N

[zlatanera]

2 hours ago, goalash said:

So, 2 years (nearly) have passed and we're back at it, are we? Or is it just me.

I have reread through all the posts in this discussion, which gave some solid understanding of the shape concept, or rather: what the shape concept used to be back then.

Anyway, it's 2018 now, new game's out. I''m reviving the topic, as I have just bought it few days ago and found myself still not getting fluidity - maybe not at all, but in practice.

Please take a look at the statements below and mark them as true or false.

1. With the Standard mentality, I have selected the Fluid shape, because my defenders seem good at more midfield-based skills, as passing, technique and flair, and my midfielders seem good at more attacking skills, as off the ball, flair and finishing. Y
2. With the Standard mentality, I have selected the Rigid shape, because my defenders won't do me any good in more offensive aspects of the game, and my midfielders ale also unlikely to make any difference up front. Y 
3. With the Control mentality, I have selected the Rigid shape, as I don't want all my team to take the more risky approach and I want at least my defenders to be more careful. Y
4. With the Control mentality, I have selected the Fluid shape, as the time runs out, the match's still tied, and I don't want to push the Mentality bar higher to Attacking; I'd rather tell my team to be Controlish as a whole, making it a bit more risky. Y
5. With the Counter mentality, I have selected the Rigid shape, as I'm cautious towards the match, but also don't want to overdo it - I want my front to be focused on attacking, whenever an opportunity arises. Y
6. With the Counter mentality, I have selected the Fluid shape, as the match draws to a close, I want to stay even more cautious and secure the draw. Y
7. With the Contain mentality, I have selected the Very Fluid shape, as I'm parking the bus, leading Brasil 1-0 as the New Zealand manager in the World Cup final. Y

 

[goalash]

2 hours ago, zlatanera said:

 

Dear God, I got it! 20 years after my first Championship Manager game and 14 years into the FM series!

[zlatanera]

3 minutes ago, goalash said:

Dear God, I got it! 20 years after my first Championship Manager game and 14 years into the FM series!

Well I hope so, otherwise I'm wrong as well haha

Hopefully someone else replies and confirms what I've said.

[DiStru_]

On 3/12/2018 at 11:01, goalash said:

1. With the Standard mentality, I have selected the Fluid shape, because my defenders seem good at more midfield-based skills, as passing, technique and flair, and my midfielders seem good at more attacking skills, as off the ball, flair and finishing. Y/N
2. With the Standard mentality, I have selected the Rigid shape, because my defenders won't do me any good in more offensive aspects of the game, and my midfielders ale also unlikely to make any difference up front. Y/N

Do Structured and Fluid affect the midfielders that much? On most team mentalities their personal mentality doesn't change at all, so the way I thought it was, is the following:

• Structured and Fluid = affect mostly defenders and advanced players
• Very Structured and Very Fluid = affect all positions, including your midfielders

For example, if you select the Standard team mentality and then change between Structured and Fluid, you will notice no difference in the personal mentality of your midfielders. However, if you select Highly Structured with the same team mentality for example, midfielders mentality will be affected. That's why I assume there is very little difference in your midfielders being involved in transitions whether you select Structured or Fluid.

[goalash]

3 hours ago, DiStru_ said:

Do Structured and Fluid affect the midfielders that much? On most team mentalities their personal mentality doesn't change at all, so the way I thought it was, is the following:

• Structured and Fluid = affect mostly defenders and advanced players
• Very Structured and Very Fluid = affect all positions, including your midfielders

For example, if you select the Standard team mentality and then change between Structured and Fluid, you will notice no difference in the personal mentality of your midfielders. However, if you select Highly Structured with the same team mentality for example, midfielders mentality will be affected. That's why I assume there is very little difference in your midfielders being involved in transitions whether you select Structured or Fluid.

So what you're saying is that Rigid and Fluid affect only both "ends" of a formation - defenders and forwards - excluding midfielders. That would make sense.

Question 1: what attributes would you consider key for defenders and fowards before making a decision on Shape?
Question 2: what attributes would you consider key for midfielders before moving to either Very Rigid or Very Fluid?

[summatsupeer]

You guys are over complicating it.

1. The midfield is the centre from which the deeper and more advanced players are either told to expand or compress.

2. The more structured the shape the bigger the effect of the duty and the strata (d, dm, m, am, st) has. The more fluid the shape the smaller the difference duty and strata has.

3. Each shape doesn't have special effects they're just smaller/bigger.

4. Different roles have different mentalities as well.

So for example a support duty CM will have the same mentality regardless of team shape though his creative freedom will change. If he was support in DM or AM then his mentality will change with the structured shapes having a bigger effect and the fluid ones being a smaller effect.

This is why so many of us advise to just use Flexible if you don't know what it does.  Roles, duties, and team mentality should be the focus when making a tactic. Team shape wont suddenly fix a tactic, its more a setting to refine it.

[NabsKebabs]

Yep, people always over complicate shape. 

For me, it's simple. 

If I want fast transitions or counter attacks, I go structured. This is because less players will be involved in the attack but the ones that are will be on a higher mentality.

If I want to throw more players into the attack, or camp in the opposition half, I'd go fluid. Attackers are more likely to hold up the ball, drop a bit deeper and wait for support. 

If I'm unsure or just a want a balance, flexible is the way to go. 

[goalash]

On 3/13/2018 at 15:40, summatsupeer said:

You guys are over complicating it.

 

On 3/13/2018 at 15:50, NabsKebabs said:

Yep, people always over complicate shape.

We do, because it's explained terribly in-game - since the very beginning. And they had a lot of time to up their game in this regard.

[Keyzer Soze]

In relation to team shape, i usually like to simplify things, and to do that i've decided to put aside some of the variables.

So, team shape affects:

- Creativity

- players roles mentality

- team compactness

Creativity it's the first variable i ignore, simply because i can always give more, or less, creativity with TI's (be more expressive, be more disciplined) and players roles.

Players roles mentality have small changes, like @summatsupeerexplain very well, but i think they are very small indeed and the influence in the tactic it's marginal.

So in the end it's a simply choice of wanting my players closer, or note, to each other. If i want them closer, i go with fluid or very fluid, if i want them more apart i go with structured or very structured.

[summatsupeer]

The explanations used to be fine but I agree, since they changed what the shapes do and how duty interacts with the players mentality they've not updated them, I have no idea why.

49 minutes ago, Keyzer Soze said:

Creativity it's the first variable i ignore, simply because i can always give more, or less, creativity with TI's (be more expressive, be more disciplined) and players roles.

Players roles mentality have small changes, like @summatsupeerexplain very well, but i think they are very small indeed and the influence in the tactic it's marginal.

So in the end it's a simply choice of wanting my players closer, or note, to each other. If i want them closer, i go with fluid or very fluid, if i want them more apart i go with structured or very structured.

Agreed.

The only thing i'd add is a reminder of the effect shape has on the duty and how that modifies the players starting mentality. On Very Fluid the stratas start closer together and the duties have a small effect.  On Very Structured the startas start further apart and the duties have a bigger effect which could further expand the space if you have say a FB-D + IF-A or could close it a bit if you have say a FB-A + IF-S.