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Football Manager 2016 - 16.2.0 Official feedback thread


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Big,very big delay for the winter update this year.We are disappointed from the criminal referee of PAOK in yesterday match against Olympiacos too.So nervous this day

Except it isn't delayed, both because it's always released around this very time, and because there was no set date. Hard to be delayed when there isn't one.

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This may have been raised earlier in this thread, but SI's in-game definition of a "key pass" is very different to most statistic gathering companies. I can only presume it is (understandable) teething problems with the new, and very good, Prozone analysis feature.

I've managed both Arsenal and Anderlecht extensively on FM16 - as well as a few other teams - and found that my full-backs, usually camped within the opposition's half, tally up at least twelve "key passes" a game. Upon further analysis, at least ten of them are harmless passes square, into midfield, from around the opposition's penalty box. It isn't just full-backs either.

I may be wrong, but I believe this also contributes to the ridiculous match ratings full-backs receive. I presume "key passes" are a major value within the match rating algorithms.

Just to further this, here's a typical example of the issue. My RSC Anderlecht side is playing BATE Borisov - a good side in their own right - in the group stage of the UEFA Champions League.

I'm thirty-five minutes in and, having just taken the lead, I decide to review the match analysis to see where I can better my tactics/game plan. What I find is neither surprising nor unprecedented. Galhardo, my right-back who tends to position himself in advanced areas, has already completed five "key passes," while Youri Tielemans has also completed five "key passes." Here they are:-

Anderlecht%20vs.%20BATE%20Borisov%20-%20Key%20Passes%20leading%20to%20Shots_zpsoykxbses.png

As you can (probably) see, literally one of these "key passes" led to a shot (which resulted in my goal); and it was just one of two which was passed into the opposition's area. Most of these "key passes" is my players recycling possession, spreading it from side-to-side. It's quite obvious that Football Manager's definition of a "key pass" is very different to that of a statistics company, a keen football follower or even a casual fan.

As detailed in my previous post, I think this is a good explanation as to why full-back ratings are incredibly inflated. A good portion of the passes they complete are considered "key passes."

This has nothing to do with my tactics, my gameplan or my players - this is an issue (likely an understandable one) with SI's in-game definitions of certain tangibles.

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Just to further this, here's a typical example of the issue. My RSC Anderlecht side is playing BATE Borisov - a good side in their own right - in the group stage of the UEFA Champions League.

I'm thirty-five minutes in and, having just taken the lead, I decide to review the match analysis to see where I can better my tactics/game plan. What I find is neither surprising nor unprecedented. Galhardo, my right-back who tends to position himself in advanced areas, has already completed five "key passes," while Youri Tielemans has also completed five "key passes." Here they are:-

Anderlecht%20vs.%20BATE%20Borisov%20-%20Key%20Passes%20leading%20to%20Shots_zpsoykxbses.png

As you can (probably) see, literally one of these "key passes" led to a shot (which resulted in my goal); and it was just one of two which was passed into the opposition's area. Most of these "key passes" is my players recycling possession, spreading it from side-to-side. It's quite obvious that Football Manager's definition of a "key pass" is very different to that of a statistics company, a keen football follower or even a casual fan.

As detailed in my previous post, I think this is a good explanation as to why full-back ratings are incredibly inflated. A good portion of the passes they complete are considered "key passes."

This has nothing to do with my tactics, my gameplan or my players - this is an issue (likely an understandable one) with SI's in-game definitions of certain tangibles.

I've long had my own reservations on this. Excellent post, especially on the knock on effects of it.

This, if any one is in doubt, is a good example of constructive feeback.

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For me this is symptomatic of what the real issue with crosses is; there are far too many of them. Any attack duty fullback is told to cross often, this leads to annoying situations like this where fullbacks will try to cross at all costs, even if there is absolutely no room to do it. It looks awful in the ME because of that animation where the defender catches up with them when it looks like they have time to cross, even though they actually don't. And inevitably because there are so many crosses attempted there are too many goals from them.

I play 4-1-4-1 on Counter with support fullbacks and wide midfielders and Work Ball into Box (which means that all my players are told to cross less often). So short of playing on Contain with no wide players and never attacking I couldn't really reduce crosses much more. With this I actually attempt a realistic number of crosses per game, between 15-25. The AI will, without any exception, attempt at least 30+ crosses a game against me though.

Defending in wide areas is absolutely screwed up because in their defensive shape teams don't cover the width of the pitch properly, they bunch up in the middle. This is particularly bad against teams who use narrow formations like the diamond or 5-3-2, hence the massive number of assists from fullbacks in Italy as I posted before. It takes one game to see this. It's totally beyond my comprehension how certain posters on this forum can't see it. It's the same old suspects though who if the grass was pink instead of green they wouldn't see a problem. They seem to actually want to hold back the development of the game. If they had their way we'd all still be playing CM2.

I think problem with crossing is even more complex. I do not score or conceede too many from crosses.

- number of crosses: I don't know what's avarage number of them but as we know the number can vary a lot irl. with this in mind I don't believe the number of crosses is the most important factor here, so this leads us to:

- crossing quality/decision making: decision making when crossing can be awful. this is something most of us will agree, plenty of undecisive moments where wide players (wingers and FBs) simply wait for defenders to close them down instead of whiping the cross in earlier. or dribbling down the line holding up play and waiting for defenders to catch them, ignoring all the passing options available around. which also leads to strange decision/crossing making and too many corners. buggy and annoying to watch really.

but then on the other hand some people do witness too many goals from crosses especially assits from FBs. as mentioned in Italy the FBs will massivly lead the assists, avarage ratings and Motm charts by far. players like Marchisio, Pogba, Pjanic, Hamsik world class midfielders will have 0 or 1 asisst with av. rating around 7.00 for example. my experience as I said is that I don't score/concede too many eventhough I use FBa. quite on contrary, I would say Dzeko as my main threat from crosses is awful at scoring headers. he scores here and there but considering the number of attempts he's awful. also I don't conceede or score too many from far post, contrary to what some people say.

conclussion here leads us to the fact that some people/settings/leagues/formations experience this crossing bug. also the player statistics shows us there is something seriously wrong with FBs and that they're over-powered a lot. at least in SeriaA.

- defending wide area and cutting the passing options

personally I wouldn't say defending the wide area is totally screwed. yes the defending team should be more positionally awere of FBs movement and threat. in real life the wide player most usually winger will be the one who will close the passing lane to oposing FB. this is missing in FM. full-backs easily receive the pass in open space, there's no one who closes them down to receive the ball in the first place. teams just too easily swap the ball to the other flank. in FM this is happenening too easily while ire it's the one of the most riskiest passes and you need top quality passers and enough width to swap flanks like in FM. for me this is where I would defenetly try to make ME adjustments which shouldn't be that hard to implement. I don't know how many of you have seen it or paid attention to it but in this ME version even the FBs can exchange the passes from one wing to another. irl this is almost impossible.

-reaction time and positioning

especially Gk's is strange and this needs big improvement. sure there are too many rebound goals and it looks silly. GK and defence positioning when dealing with crosses looks suspicious sometimes but I'm not really sure that is the biggest problem here. if their positioning (and reaction time-should be) was improved then we would hardly see any goals from crosses.

- ball control

linked to switching the flanks and other risky (long) passes, I think that players are just too good at ball control when receiving those passes. at least it could take a few more touches/seconds to control it. that way defender gets those couple of moments to close the player down. you don't see a first time cross after 50 meter pass in real life but it happens in FM too frequently. on the other hand when there's a really good chance of a nice and simple first time cross, players will dwell on the ball on many occassions.

- closing down

there are some segments of pressing linked to this issue I mentioned already. but simply it doesn't work well enough. this is for seperate discussion.

with all of the above in mind and probably a couple of more things I haven't mentioned I think we can conclude this issue is far more complex than it looks at first. I defenetly wouldn't say the crossing is over-powered per se. while some users experience it and also the player stats back it up, anyone who ever watched the game in full will easily spot player dwelling before cross for no aparent reason. which means there could even be much higher number of crosses attemted in the first place. to be honest this dwelling before cross looks like artifical keeping the number of crosses down thing to me. at least this is my experience, in my situation and what I'm seeing I could argue the crossing is under-powered. my team puts decent amount of crosses but I defenetly don't score too many, esecially having in mind I have a player (Dzeko) who wins many headers but just doesn't score much from them. again it looks like headers were tuned down to ''realistic'' ratio. I honestly didn't see too many goals from the far post tap ins as witnesed by some people, so I can't comment on that.

for me the biggest issue is that full-backs have too much time and space in the first place (long passes too effective, ball control too good). what I'd like to see improved decisioning - dweling on ball, dribbling down the line ignoring passing options - less stupid amount of corners, more crosses bouncing and steying on pitch, more crosses going nowhere. but also improved defending of wide area, defending team being more awere of full back positioning. attacking team needs width and quality passers to switch flanks.

and secondly eventhough I like many of segments of this ME it's too one dimensional in terms of where the danger can come from. world-class MCs, AMCs are only really good at switching flanks and long passes with a couple of asissts during hole season. world class strikers are missing too many headers-sitters. Inside forwards and Wingers dribbling far too much. why they don't play more one-two's? where are those 50-50 through balls which should happen far more frequantly? Target Man flick-ons? I've never seen those simple one touch dribbles from deep areas which start counter-attacks, basic football move and probably the most important reason why teams need those midfield playmakers..

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Big,very big delay for the winter update this year.We are disappointed from the criminal referee of PAOK in yesterday match against Olympiacos too.So nervous this day

It wasn't a penalty, the player dived.

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Big,very big delay for the winter update this year.We are disappointed from the criminal referee of PAOK in yesterday match against Olympiacos too.So nervous this day

Some transfer windows closed at the end of last week so it hasn't been all that 'delayed'

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I think problem with crossing is even more complex. I do not score or conceede too many from crosses.

- number of crosses: I don't know what's avarage number of them but as we know the number can vary a lot irl. with this in mind I don't believe the number of crosses is the most important factor here, so this leads us to:

- crossing quality/decision making: decision making when crossing can be awful. this is something most of us will agree, plenty of undecisive moments where wide players (wingers and FBs) simply wait for defenders to close them down instead of whiping the cross in earlier. or dribbling down the line holding up play and waiting for defenders to catch them, ignoring all the passing options available around. which also leads to strange decision/crossing making and too many corners. buggy and annoying to watch really.

but then on the other hand some people do witness too many goals from crosses especially assits from FBs. as mentioned in Italy the FBs will massivly lead the assists, avarage ratings and Motm charts by far. players like Marchisio, Pogba, Pjanic, Hamsik world class midfielders will have 0 or 1 asisst with av. rating around 7.00 for example. my experience as I said is that I don't score/concede too many eventhough I use FBa. quite on contrary, I would say Dzeko as my main threat from crosses is awful at scoring headers. he scores here and there but considering the number of attempts he's awful. also I don't conceede or score too many from far post, contrary to what some people say.

conclussion here leads us to the fact that some people/settings/leagues/formations experience this crossing bug. also the player statistics shows us there is something seriously wrong with FBs and that they're over-powered a lot. at least in SeriaA.

- defending wide area and cutting the passing options

personally I wouldn't say defending the wide area is totally screwed. yes the defending team should be more positionally awere of FBs movement and threat. in real life the wide player most usually winger will be the one who will close the passing lane to oposing FB. this is missing in FM. full-backs easily receive the pass in open space, there's no one who closes them down to receive the ball in the first place. teams just too easily swap the ball to the other flank. in FM this is happenening too easily while ire it's the one of the most riskiest passes and you need top quality passers and enough width to swap flanks like in FM. for me this is where I would defenetly try to make ME adjustments which shouldn't be that hard to implement. I don't know how many of you have seen it or paid attention to it but in this ME version even the FBs can exchange the passes from one wing to another. irl this is almost impossible.

-reaction time and positioning

especially Gk's is strange and this needs big improvement. sure there are too many rebound goals and it looks silly. GK and defence positioning when dealing with crosses looks suspicious sometimes but I'm not really sure that is the biggest problem here. if their positioning (and reaction time-should be) was improved then we would hardly see any goals from crosses.

- ball control

linked to switching the flanks and other risky (long) passes, I think that players are just too good at ball control when receiving those passes. at least it could take a few more touches/seconds to control it. that way defender gets those couple of moments to close the player down. you don't see a first time cross after 50 meter pass in real life but it happens in FM too frequently. on the other hand when there's a really good chance of a nice and simple first time cross, players will dwell on the ball on many occassions.

- closing down

there are some segments of pressing linked to this issue I mentioned already. but simply it doesn't work well enough. this is for seperate discussion.

with all of the above in mind and probably a couple of more things I haven't mentioned I think we can conclude this issue is far more complex than it looks at first. I defenetly wouldn't say the crossing is over-powered per se. while some users experience it and also the player stats back it up, anyone who ever watched the game in full will easily spot player dwelling before cross for no aparent reason. which means there could even be much higher number of crosses attemted in the first place. to be honest this dwelling before cross looks like artifical keeping the number of crosses down thing to me. at least this is my experience, in my situation and what I'm seeing I could argue the crossing is under-powered. my team puts decent amount of crosses but I defenetly don't score too many, esecially having in mind I have a player (Dzeko) who wins many headers but just doesn't score much from them. again it looks like headers were tuned down to ''realistic'' ratio. I honestly didn't see too many goals from the far post tap ins as witnesed by some people, so I can't comment on that.

for me the biggest issue is that full-backs have too much time and space in the first place (long passes too effective, ball control too good). what I'd like to see improved decisioning - dweling on ball, dribbling down the line ignoring passing options - less stupid amount of corners, more crosses bouncing and steying on pitch, more crosses going nowhere. but also improved defending of wide area, defending team being more awere of full back positioning. attacking team needs width and quality passers to switch flanks.

and secondly eventhough I like many of segments of this ME it's too one dimensional in terms of where the danger can come from. world-class MCs, AMCs are only really good at switching flanks and long passes with a couple of asissts during hole season. world class strikers are missing too many headers-sitters. Inside forwards and Wingers dribbling far too much. why they don't play more one-two's? where are those 50-50 through balls which should happen far more frequantly? Target Man flick-ons? I've never seen those simple one touch dribbles from deep areas which start counter-attacks, basic football move and probably the most important reason why teams need those midfield playmakers..

Excellent post, most of the issues with the ME are covered in this post

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I've long had my own reservations on this. Excellent post, especially on the knock on effects of it.

This, if any one is in doubt, is a good example of constructive feeback.

Thank you.

I should stress that is by no means an isolated incident. I can provide similar examples of almost every game I've ever played on this version. To be honest, I'm quite surprised that it hasn't been raised as an issue more often.

Really hoping it's something that can be rectified with the new patch, but I predict it's probably too complex an issue to solve in a matter of days.

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Thank you.

I should stress that is by no means an isolated incident. I can provide similar examples of almost every game I've ever played on this version. To be honest, I'm quite surprised that it hasn't been raised as an issue more often.

Really hoping it's something that can be rectified with the new patch, but I predict it's probably too complex an issue to solve in a matter of days.

I looked specifically at this, inspired by your post. I can't provide screenshots, I'm afraid, so I'll try using words instead. The scenario is a home match as Arsenal against Stoke City, playing an attacking, flexible 4-2-3-1. My right back is a WBs with Stay Wider and Cross from Deep; my LB is a WBa with Stay Wider. Neither of the central midfielders have special instructions; I'm playing Ramsey at DLPd and Pogba at BBM. Alexis on the left wing is a RMD; Oxlade-Chamberlain on the right is a Wa. Ozil in the center is an APa and ahead of him Giroud is a TMs.

The first four passes are all vertical. Mesut Ozil, from a free kick, finds Alexis free in space at the corner of the penalty area on the left, but he's going away from goal and the first touch is poor. Mesut Ozil makes a long pass to find Alexis running in behind the Stoke fullback. Aaron Ramsey plays the ball to the feet of Olivier Giroud; he's got his back to goal at the edge of the D and is tightly marked and immediately tackled and dispossessed. Keiran Gibbs makes a tackle in midfield and plays a raking diagonal ball to Alexis, who has again run in behind the fullback. Of these first four, only two could be said to have created any danger and none have led to a shot.

By 12 minutes we're up to 10 key passes. Ozil plays a diagonal ball to a streaking Gibbs, who hits a first-time cross to Giroud, who controls it on his chest but can't quite get a shot away. After a ball is cleared to the halfway line from a corner, Bellerin hits a long pass to Gibbs near the line on the left, about 18 yards from the byline. Gibbs takes a touch to control it and taps a square ball a few yards inside to Alexis, at the corner of the D. Both the Bellerin and Gibbs passes are scored as key passes. Alexis plays a pass from the left corner of the penalty area to Ozil, standing in a central position about ten yards from the edge of the penalty area; Ozil touches it to Paul Pogba, also outside the penalty area with his back to goal; Pogba plays a square pass across to Oxlade-Chamberlain at the right corner of the penalty area about two yards outside; Oxlade-Chamberlain plays a square ball outside for an unmarked Bellerin to run onto. All four of of those passes are marked as key passes.

At 20 minutes we've got four more. Pogba plays a beautiful long pass to Giroud running the channel, but Giroud is marked by four defenders and holds the ball up for nothing. After a throw-in, Alexis dribbles past his marker and plays a cutback to Giroud; Giroud chooses not to shoot. On a counterattack, Giroud plays a ball in between the fullback and centerback to find Alexis. Ozil plays a long ball forward to Giroud, marked by three defenders, on a counter attack. So far we have 14 key passes, 3 shots, zero on target, zero CCC and zero half chances.

To be honest, I can't really keep this up. By half time, my players have had 28 key passes. Two have been inside the penalty area, both going directly away from goal. Three have been into the penalty area. Thirteen are primarily horizontal. The net result is 9 shots, 4 on target, 1 woodwork, 2 CCC, 1 HC. Two are from the RB, 4 from the LB, 4 from the BBM, 1 from the DLP, 2 from the RW, 4 from the LW, 5 from the AMC and 6 from the ST.

Final match stats are 20 shots, 9 on target, 7 off. 1 woodwork, 2 CCC, 5 half chances. 361/494 passes completed, 11 of 53 crosses. 43 key passes, so just under 9% of total attempted passes and 12% of completed passes are key passes. Of those 43, 3 happen in the Stoke penalty area, none going towards goal. Four go into the penalty area from outside. 39 of the 43 are within the Stoke half. 20 are what I would consider horizontal passes. Giroud's assist on 37 minutes for Oxlade-Chamberlain is scored as a key pass; it was a long, vertical pass played on the counter as the Ox ran into the right-side channel. Neither Giroud's assist for Pogba's goal on 52 minutes or Ozil's for the Ox on 73 minutes were scored as key passes.

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but then on the other hand some people do witness too many goals from crosses especially assits from FBs. as mentioned in Italy the FBs will massivly lead the assists, avarage ratings and Motm charts by far. players like Marchisio, Pogba, Pjanic, Hamsik world class midfielders will have 0 or 1 asisst with av. rating around 7.00 for example. my experience as I said is that I don't score/concede too many eventhough I use FBa. quite on contrary, I would say Dzeko as my main threat from crosses is awful at scoring headers. he scores here and there but considering the number of attempts he's awful. also I don't conceede or score too many from far post, contrary to what some people say.

conclussion here leads us to the fact that some people/settings/leagues/formations experience this crossing bug. also the player statistics shows us there is something seriously wrong with FBs and that they're over-powered a lot. at least in SeriaA.

Italy is a country where a lot of teams use narrow formations, which I think is one of the biggest quirks in the ME, in that teams that only use one wide outlet (either wingbacks or fullbacks) seem to produce even more crosses and chances from wide areas. My theory is that when a team only uses attacking defenders out wide, the opposition full backs see there are no wingers and thus tuck in to help out in the box, and if you have attacking wingers or AML/R they are generally quite derelict in their own defensive duties, which means the opposition wide players get so much space.

I play a 4-5-1 with AML/R and I have lost count of how many times I'll watch opposition full backs saunter up the pitch and overlap unmarked, while my AML or AMR literally stand on the spot and ignore them.

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Also re: the key passes issue, play one of your central midfielders as an AP(A) and you can almost guarantee he will average 7.5-8 for a whole season, just by virtue of excessive passes being classified as key.

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Italy is a country where a lot of teams use narrow formations, which I think is one of the biggest quirks in the ME, in that teams that only use one wide outlet (either wingbacks or fullbacks) seem to produce even more crosses and chances from wide areas.

Yep. This is easily one of the weirdest things in the current ME. At a point a couple of seasons ago I completely dreaded playing an AI team that played a 4-3-2-1 Christmas Tree against me, they were impossible to beat because they'd kill me with crosses. Despite the fact I had 2 men on each wing, and they had just 1, it seemed to make them even more crossing-minded and unmarked instead of the opposite.

I eventually solved that by playing a high line, high closing down, to take away the space for their fullbacks to run into from deep without going offside. Speaking of which, my own fullbacks seem to go offside way too often, which is just bizarre. I play a WB/S and a FB/S on the fullback positions. That's not even very extreme roles at all, yet they go forward so much they get caught offside all the time. And that's both of them, not just the most attacking WB/S.

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