FMS Official Challenge Ideas, Musings and Deliberations Thread

[HD]

OK, so here is phase one of the three-phase challenge procedure. Please post any challenge ideas in this thread, be they fully formed concepts, skeleton ideas or just vague musings. We can all discuss and deliberate over them and when we've done that for a while I'll start a new thread listed the final form of the challenges for voting purposes.

Fire away:

[SCIAG]

Possibly a Steve Coppell-based challenge? Possibly in reverse?

1) Set a favourite club who are in the third tier (or lower) of the country you plan to do the challenge in. Load all leagues from one nation, and no others. The nation must have at least three playable divisions. Then, take over a different club who have never played in the top flight of your country of choice. For example, Plymouth in England. You have 5 seasons to get them to the top flight- but you must win promotion as Championship Champions. If you fail (ie win promotion through the play offs or in second place) then simply continue to the next stage and aim to do better to make up for it. If you don't meet the deadline, then restart the challenge.

2) At this point, you may choose to leave the club or stay with them. If you leave the club, take a job with a team tipped for relagation by the media- you can check this in the club information screen. Take the club to a top-half finish (just to reinforce the point, you do not have to leave the club you got promoted with).

3)Stay at the club for as long as you wish, before resigning. Holiday until Febuary. Find a club in any league who are battling relagation. Apply for the job. You may apply for as many jobs as you like, but the club you take over must be in the relagation spots. If you keep the club up, you may move on to the next stage of the challenge. If the club gets relagated, you must stay with them, and may only leave when top of the league or sacked.

4) Take over another club in the same league as the your last one. You may take on a job in a lower division if you need to get your rep up. Take this club to a play off place within 3 years.

5) Right, I'm removing Man City from the equation completely and simplifying Crystal Palace. Take over your favourite club (that you set before the game began). Win promotion to the top flight, and then get to the final of a major domestic cup.

Normally, the challenge would end here. However, it's not going to.

6) Get the job with a big club- you should know who these are- that is in the top flight. When I say big, I mean Champions League size. If you're managing in a small country, go for a dominant team. Once you have the job, get the national team's job too- you may cheat your way to this. The challenge in this stage is simply. Qualify for the World Cup, and get at least a point in the group stage. Meanwhile, win a trophy- any trophy- with the club.

7) Finally, take over Tranmere Rovers. Avoid relagation for two years. If you're managing in a country which isn't England, take over a club from the lowest playable division and avoid relagation for two years.

Needs a bit of tweaking.

[HD]

OK guys, I think this tends to show that people aren't interested in an Official Challenge at this stage. If we don't get anything over the weekend I reckon we should call it a day for now.

[Wegason]

This may seem like plugging but I did originally offer this challenge to FMS before developing it into one for the Challenges forum.

Basically it would be a challenge, on FM08, using a custom database.

See my New Dawn in a New Land Challenge for greater depth than this post, in summary though...

A brand new nation created, replacing Northern Ireland. 40 custom teams, in three divisions, with more teams in the non-league section. Custom players etc

The challenge is that this new nation still has Northern Ireland's co-efficients and rankings, so the challenge is getting to a bigger Nirtanian club (or making your club big) and then being successful in Europe to garner more places in Europe.

I am willing to adapt it for the FMS Community but if people are interested then I think it would be a good, and different challenge. It is only available on FM 2008 though.

[SCIAG]

I've never tried to maike up a challenge before but I think I may have a good, if blindingly simple, one for you all to try when that happy day of FM09 arrival, errm , arrives.

The Randomised Challenge

This must be the first game you start with FM09. No DB tweaks either.

Start a new game, pick whatever leagues interest you, but make sure you have a few selected. If your machine will take it at least six.

Create a new manager, give him (or her) whatever experience you like.

Use the 'Randomise' button to select a team. Take the first one offered.

Write a story.

It's that simple, but should get a few stories off the ground as soon as FM09 arrives. What d'yall reckon ?

From the community thread.

[copperhorse21]

The "It's Who You Know" Challenge:

Pick any team and then the only people you can bring into the squad are ones who theoretically know someone at the club. In example, You bring in a striker, but it has to be one that was recommended to you by someone already on your squad. Or, you bring in a striker who was at the former club of one of your staff members during the time that staff member was at the club. Or, you bring in a striker from another team where they played on the same team with one of your current players (international team selection, etc.) without being recommended.

I've never done it myself, but it might be interesting to use those features not necessarily used a lot in the game. However, that is based on my personal experiences with those features. Others on here may use them more regularly than me.

[chesterfan2]

From the community thread.

Many thanks, SCIAG, I knew there must be a right place to put this, and you seem to have found it !

[Big Marv]

Here's one I've been musing over, it's not finalised, but would like to know your feedback.

The Beatles Challenge.

The premise being that you roughly follow the Beatles rise from working class Liverpool to Conquering the world.

Having specific challenges in each league and progressing as/when you complete said challenges

Additionally, you have to have your "Fab 4", who are players you must take along with you for the period of the challenge. These must be youngsters, in the region of, 16 years old (Not older than 17 at the end of the 1st season) at the start of the game. You must decide who your fab 4 are at the end of Season 1. These may be youngsters from your initial squad, game-generated youngsters or purchased youngsters. Everytime you move to a new club, your aim must be to bring the Fab 4 to that club, they must (injury permitting) play at least 1 competitive game per season, unless otherwise stated.

Star with either Sunday-League or No reputation:

1.) The Beatles started off as a group of schoolboys in the Liverpool region. You start as a manager of a (roughly) Liverpool based football club from the BSP or BSN (i.e. Vauxhall Motors, Southport, Northwich Victoria, Burscough) your aim here is to conquer your local area. Put simply, progress from your chosen division, i.e. promotion from BSN to BSP or BSP to ED2. Two caveats from this: 1.) You must spend a minimum of 2 years with your club, so success after season 1, means you must play through the following season. 2.) You must select your "Fab 4". At the end of season 1, select the 4 players that will continue with you throughout your career, you can even set their nicknames to John, Paul, George & Ringo!!!

Having completed the first section, you move onto:

2.) The Beatles first honed themselves overseas in Germany playing in Hamburg. Once you have completed the first challenge. You move onto a club playing in the German Regionaliga. As a region Hamburg clubs play in Regionaliga Nord, however this may not be possible, but at least a job in the Regionaliga. Again, the aim is to progress from the Regionaliga. So success is deemed promotion from your Regionaliga. Ideally, you will also sign your "Fab 4", during this time. Again, I'm not sure if signing your Fab4 is an (achievable) pre-requisite for progressing???

3.) Having honed themselves in Germany, the Beatles returned to the UK where they started to achieve some real success. In section 3, you must return to England to either a ED2, ED1 or ECH club, based in either the Liverpool region (Tranmere, Chester, Wrexham) or where the Beatles yielded most of their early fame & early recordings - London (Crystal Palace, Charlton, L.Orient, Barnet, Brentford, Q.P.R., Millwall, Dagenham & Redbridge). In this section you must achieve at least one promotion, and be playing in (at least) the Championship and continue playing with your club until a Team from Section 4 will have you as a manager. Again, the aim has to be to sign your Fab 4 players.

4.) Having seen some early success in England, the Beatles flew to the USA and spawned Beatle-mania. You must get a job in MLS and win the Major League (bonus kudos on getting a job with either Metrostars or Chicago Fire, for authenticity!!!). Again, you must aim to sign your Fab4 and take them Stateside.

5.) Having seen success in USA, the Beatles return to the UK, London & Abbey Road to a heroes welcome. You must take charge of any London side in the UK & qualify for Europe. The do what the Beatles never did post-USA and tour Europe (i.e. play the following season in UEFA/ECC). The same rules apply for your Fab 4.

6.) When Fame became too much and the Beatles were experimenting with all kinds of 'other' things, they went to India with the Maharishi Manesh Yogi. You must play for at least 1 season in India, with any team and must get at least 2 of your Fab4 (will this be achievable???) to sample India with you. This part is completed, after a mimium of 1 season and when 2 members of your Fab4 have sampled playing in India.

7.) The Beatles returned to the UK to record Let it Be and then to subsequently break up... Return to the UK, having sampled India, (London, again) and try and bring the Fab4 together. With your Fab4 playing you must win the Premiership/UEFA/ECC/FA Cup as a final hurrah.

Thoughts????

[SCIAG]

I don't think the Fab Four would leave a top flight club in Europe for India... additionally, any player prepared to sign for a BSP or lower side is unlikely to play in the Premiership (aside from the odd Kitson every few years).

[O\'Hara_fan]

What SCIAG said, though a way round it could be you be one of the beatles, and have possibly three staff who follow you everywhere?

[Big Marv]

A couple of additions:

- The players you select as your Fab4 must be no older than 18 by the end of the first season

- Injury permitting, all of your Fab4 in your squad, must play a minimum of 10 league games throughout the season that you complete that section of the challenge

- In the final part of the challenge, you must also sign players with the surname Lennon, McCartney, Harrison and (a derivitive of) Star (e.g. Starky, Starr, Starsky etc.)

- Leagues needed England (to BSN & BSS), Germany (to Regionalliga), USA, India. Also load all players fromthe home nations (to assist with the surnames for the final part of the challenge)

[SCIAG]

Can George McCartney count double?

[Big Marv]

Thanks for the feedback, although I think the point is that your Fab4 are never Premiership quality and merely move with you. i.e. they might get a dream move to Tottenham, when you're there, but surely your replacement there would sell them on as they are not good enough. I also think this is why the Indian challenge only requires 2 to follow you.

[Big Marv]

George McCartney is surely the holy grail for this challenge!

[Wegason]

It's interesting but complicated, I'm not sure having a Fab Four is necassarily possible, though taking 4 members of staff with you everywhere may be easier.

[glamdring]

I was going to do a challenge myself based on managing at clubs along the route of the Hurtigruten Norwegian Coastal Voyage ships (they call at ~34 ports along the coast of Norway IIRC, although when I looked into it there are quite a few that I couldn't even find a tiny non-league team who play there). Then I realised that I almost never move clubs during a game and can't be doing with playing a challenge where it is necessary to do so, plus I only got through half a season at one club before getting totally fed up with FM08. Something similar could be fleshed out into a challenge though mebee...not sure how you'd be able to port it across to a different country though!

[BobBev]

This is an idea that I had been thinking of for a little while and have now firmed up on. I think that there might have been something similar put forward during the last challenge so forgive me if I am proposing a concept that has aleady been considered. I am obviously up for any suggested improvements but I think that this framework could stimulate a story or two (I hope).

The Wheeler-Dealer Challenge

Let's face it, we all love buying and selling players and this is the main theme of the Wheeler-Dealer challenge. Each season you must use your entire transfer budget on the basis that if you don't spend it all then your tight-fisted Chairman will only go and use it to fund his extravagent lifestyle anyway. You don't have to spend all that lovely lolly at once - if the league that you play in has multiple transfer windows then you can save a bit for later but by the end of the season you can't have any transfer funds left in the bank. In addition you are obliged to accept any offers that come in for your players where the sum bid matches or exceeds their market value. That will bring in even more of the folding stuff for you to reinvest in new players. Will you be able to gain sustained success with an unsettled squad or will the changes in personnel prove to be too disruptive? Can you cope with the potential loss of a star player midway through the season? Do you have the man management skills to integrate new players into what could be a tight-knit squad? In short will you be a Harry Redknapp and make your team stronger or a Graeme Souness and throw good money after bad?

In order to make it a bit more interesting you are not allowed to manage in any of the established leagues throughout the world, so the following countries are out of bounds.

Argentina

Brazil

England

France

Germany

Holland

Italy

Portugal

Scotland

Spain

USA

That apart the world is your oyster! Pick any team in any league in any country and then entertain us with the results as you seek to fill your trophy cabinet.

[HD]

Does anyone have any thoughts on any of the proposals?

[glamdring]

If the official challenge is one that can be done with a single club (like Lisbon Lions was) then I promise I will have a go for the first time in quite a while. Otherwise I'll take a look, but probably won't be interested because I can't generally bring myself to leave a club I have built up and if you can't enjoy a game you can't enjoy writing a story about it either!

[SCIAG]

Randomised and wheeler dealer seem good ideas.

[sherm]

Total Football Challenge

"Simple football is the most beautiful. But playing simple football is the hardest thing"

"Total Football" is the label for an influential theory of tactical football in which any player can take over the role of any other player in the team. It was pioneered by Dutch football side Ajax

The Challenge itself is fairly simple. You are Johan Cruyff. A former legend of both Dutch and World football, you were the most famous pioneer of the philosophy of Total Football. Having experienced much success as a player, the demise and failure of Ajax and the Holland National side has upset you, and this is something you feel you have to change

Take control of Ajax, and while giving them the domestic success the club craves, try and match the feat of the 1970's side and win three European Cups (Ideally in succession, but if not then it doesn't make much difference)

If at any time, you are offered, or feel like you want to apply for the Dutch job should it become available, then you must beat their achievements of the Total Football Era and win the World Cup

As a Bonus, if you feel up to it, try and repeat the feat with another Dutch side, cementing Total Football as the iconic way to play 'the beautiful game'

[glamdring]

Total Football Challenge

"Simple football is the most beautiful. But playing simple football is the hardest thing"

"Total Football" is the label for an influential theory of tactical football in which any player can take over the role of any other player in the team. It was pioneered by Dutch football side Ajax

The Challenge itself is fairly simple. You are Johan Cruyff. A former legend of both Dutch and World football, you were the most famous pioneer of the philosophy of Total Football. Having experienced much success as a player, the demise and failure of Ajax and the Holland National side has upset you, and this is something you feel you have to change

Take control of Ajax, and while giving them the domestic success the club craves, try and match the feat of the 1970's side and win three European Cups (Ideally in succession, but if not then it doesn't make much difference)

If at any time, you are offered, or feel like you want to apply for the Dutch job should it become available, then you must beat their achievements of the Total Football Era and win the World Cup

As a Bonus, if you feel up to it, try and repeat the feat with another Dutch side, cementing Total Football as the iconic way to play 'the beautiful game'

Like the idea, but are there no constraints on your tactics? It wouldn't quite fit the Total Football idea if I buy a 6 ft 6 target man and play long ball football to win the Eredivisie!

[sherm]

That bit I am still deliberating on. In total football, every (outfield) player could play everywhere, but to buy a team of versatile players in FM could be a bit difficult. I was thinking that you can use either a 4-4-2, but tweaking the instructions etc. as you wish to play attacking football, or a 4-3-3 with one striker and two wingers-cum-strikerrs, if you see what I mean?

Cruyff was a genius and the star man of the Dutch and Ajax teams - maybe we could have one star midfielder who runs the show and must play every game when fit? No players over 6ft? No target men allowed, playmakers used etc

If anyone has any other suggestions, feel free, and I should have fully tweaked my ideas by later today

[glamdring]

I tried a bizarre tactic in FM06 with Whitley Bay where I set every player on the pitch (except the goalkeeper) to swap positions with someone else in a fashion that would potentially have allowed any player to end up almost anywhere and gave every player a free role, but I only dared use it in a pre-season friendly. I don't think FM's tactics have the right kind of level of instructions to handle a proper attempt at creating a real total football tactic so having to do that probably wouldn't make for a good story game Certainly a few restrictions/guidelines would be good though

[sherm]

I've got it (at least I think so anyways)

You must choose a tactic at the start of the game, whether it be 4-4-2, 4-5-1, 4-3-3, whatever. After this, you cannot change once chosen, and it must stay the same throughout the course of the game

Once in control of Ajax, you will have scope to buy players, but there are guidelines and restrictions to follow. No player (except for one, explained in the next step) must be over the age of 28 (although if players in your squad are at the start, you have a season to get them out. If not, they must go in the reserves from the start of season 2)

There must be at least two Dutch under 21 internationals in your squad at all times, and one regular Dutch International (If they are not internationals it doesn't matter, you can make them into one ) These must stay with you. The under 21's must change regularly (once the first two reach 22 etc) but the one star man (Cruyff's legacy) must remain with you at all times, play when available (every game) and can be the only man over 28. When you take the Holland job, he must be there with you too, and if he retires and goes into coaching, you must take him on as a coach

Finally, you may tweak the tactics as you wish, with B'arrows and F'arrows, playmaker (you cannot use target men though, and you cannot play long passing. It has to be short, mixed, attacking football) but you must stick with your chosen formation

What do you think?

[blowcrapup]

I like the sound of the Ajax one but you would need to use an edited db as Holland are normally unplayble or can only use newgens.

[BobBev]

One possible change that I would suggest for the Ajax challenge is to remove the "single-club" restriction (i.e. allow any club to be managed according to the tactical and personnel constraints laid out above). That would give more variety for the writers I think.

[sherm]

Hmmm. BobBev, that's a fair suggestion, and thinking about it, is a good one. Just because Total Football was employed by the Dutch doesn;t mean others cannot do it.

Having looked on WikiPedia about Total Football, it has a list of team that have used the tactic, which include Austria and Holland in international terms, and Ajax, Arsenal, Barcelona and Dynamo Kiev

Yes I think it would be prudent to make it any club (or country) you like to play with that way, you can bring total football to a country that hasn't had it. The rules would be the same, but I do like your idea

Cheers BobBev (and blowcrapup, I took your suggestion into account too)

[glamdring]

I agree with BobBev on that one - also the "You are Johan Cruyff" part...I think as a way to define the challenge based on a real historic figure it is good, but from a story perspective people would obviously want to create their own football icon in a similar mould to Cruyff with his ideals etc, just not having to pretend they are Cruyff himself!

[sherm]

Again Glamdring, a good suggestion - So if we remove the Johan Cruyff part and the single-club restriction, I think we have a good idea for a challenge there

If there are still tweaks you would suggest, please, feel free

[sherm]

Total Football Challenge (with suggested tweaks and changes from others)

"Simple football is the most beautiful. But playing simple football is the hardest thing"

"Total Football" is the label for an influential theory of tactical football in which any player can take over the role of any other player in the team. It was pioneered by Dutch football side Ajax

The Challenge itself is fairly simple. You are a football manager, but one who has long been an admirer of the 'Total Football' philosophy. You watched in awe as the Dutch side of the 70's took the world by storm. You want to employ that tactic once again, and when you get you next job, you will implement that tactic

Take control of any club in the world, and while giving them the domestic success that the Ajax side of the 70's had, and trying to win three European Cups and at least two League titles and one Domestic Cup (Ideally the Champions League trophies in succession, but if not then it doesn't make much difference)

If at any time, you are offered, or feel like you want to apply for the job of the country you are from, then you must beat the achievements of the Total Football Era and win the World Cup and/or European Championships

However, there are some restrictions. You must choose one tactic to start the game with, whether that be 4-4-2, 4-5-1 or 4-3-3. Once you have chosen one, you must stick with it through the entire duration of the game. You can tweak it as much as you like, using F'arrows and B'arrows, (although you must NOT use long passing or Target men, it must be a short mixed style in an attacking form)

You must also have no player (except one, explained in a minute) over the age of 28 in your squad. The only one you are allowed must be the 'Cruyff' of your team. He must play every game when fit and available, and he must spend his entire career at your club. He is the star player and main man in terms of the Total Football. If he goes into coaching, you must take him on as a coach. He must play every game for the national team (if you manage that country) until he retires

[BobBev]

A few questions for you sherm - at what point would you have to identify your "Cruyff"? Does it have to be as soon as you start the game or could it be a player that you specifically bring in? Also what if he refuses a contract extension at some point and leaves the club? Or you get an offer that your Chairman decides is too good to turn down or meets a minimum fee clause and he gets sold on?

[sherm]

The cruyff of the team does not have to be there straightaway. He can be a player that is brought in (although he must be in place by the start of the third season) or you can use somebody already at the club

In terms of the minimum fee, I would say at all costs, do not give one, although if this is unavoidable, set it as high as possible. However, should this be unavoidable and the chairman accepts an offer, and the player leaves, you are allowed to replace that player with another in that same position (and of same nationality)

Would you think that is acceptable Bob, or did you have your own ideas?

[BobBev]

Sounds fine to me sherm - clarifies it nicely.

[sherm]

I only asked if you had ideas because you have created many challenges, and some of your ideas have been excellent.

You are also a more experienced FMSer than myself, and to get advice from a senior member of the team is alsways a boost

[BobBev]

You are also a more experienced FMSer than myself, and to get advice from a senior member of the team is alsways a boost

Are you calling me old???

[glamdring]

You walked right into that one sherm

[sherm]

I did didn't I? Ah well, we all do it

And Bob, I assure you that no pun was intended - Somewhere in there is a compliment, ans I was not referring to your age whatsoever

[Peacemaker7]

I sometimes wonder if we actually try too with challenges these days, and although they look good on paper it ends up being pretty cumbersome once you start playing - and the game these days is also nowhere near as simple as it used to be, something we've discussed before and I guess something we really can't do anything about.

[glamdring]

Aye...depending what the challenge is and if I do choose to do it my hardest decision will be deciding on a version to play it in that won't have me hurling my laptop off the Tyne Bridge in no time! In the last week alone I've loaded up games in CM03/04, FM06, FM07 and FM08 to dabble with, but find irritations with in each

[BobBev]

glam - the Total Football challenge would suit you given the way you like your teams to play, and I suspect that Diego would be your Cruyff figure.

[Panpardus]

I wrote this before on one of the other challenge threads, but will restate here. Personally for me most of the challenges on here take to long and most people want to play their own sort of thing and tend to the Challenges as something sort of different when they get a bit sick of their own game.

I think simplifying them a little so there can be a result either way in 5 years is the best, so sort of mini challenges would be the way to go. After that people can continue on if they like but it isnt really necessary.

EG: Make it so they have to have certain leagues active, have a vote for team picked, have a few guidelines like can only get in staff through job apps, and get players through scouting, and limit coaches and scouts to a certain number. With transfers you can only buy one player a season/transfer period over their value rest have to be under and you have to sell if the offer is over x times what they a worth.

This might get a few more people interested in doing a short story and get more interest as you can read how others are doing as you know the story is only a more short term project

[clrkaitken]

Hey all,

Just wanted to throw my $0.02 in on this discussion, as I really enjoy reading these stories, and am currently fine-tuning a couple of FM08 stories, my firsts. I'm also looking forward to diving head-long into some stories on FM09, so this thread really interests me.

I'm in total agreement with panpardus. If the goal is to revive the FMS Challenges, I think it's important to differentiate our challenges from the CSE Challenges. I read some of the elaborate challenges set out here, and they look like they could make for fantastic games, but I feel that their story-telling potential is limited because anyone who chooses to do so eventually tells the same story, especially when there are so many specific steps.

The whole reason that these stories are enjoyable is because the successful writers have wonderfully vivid imaginations. I read their work, and I can place myself inside the world that the author has created. We should be encouraging a story "challenge" where we basically create an environment for the beginning point of the game, and let the author decide in what direction to take their story.

In my mind, we baiscally need to provide a where, a when, and a what common to all participants, and leave the how and why up to them. Tell them what leagues to load, at what date their game begins, and which teams they should begin with. The rest is up to the storyteller.

[glamdring]

Simplicity is definitely best in my view too. I enjoyed having a bash at HD's Lord of the Rings challenge a couple of years back, but didn't get very far because it needed a lot of leagues and my PC was not up to it and nor was my story writing ability up to the levels of creativity needed for that challenge.

The "challenge" aspect is always a bit iffy for FMS simply because we are obviously trying to write an interesting story first and foremost rather than be the first person to achieve some landmark or other and happen to write about it along the way. A good challenge can certainly provoke some good interest though with a good number of story attempts. No challenge will ever match the Lisbon Lions for me, both in its simplicity and in the level of interest (and it had > 10 stories that went a decent distance into it), but that's no reason why we shouldn't keep trying to find another one that captures everyone's imagination.

BobBev: I hadn't actually thought too much about specifics yet, but I suspect you could be right

[HD]

I'll have a look at this lot later on and come up with a voting thread.

PS: Can Terk or someone with mod powers add the most recent official challenge to the challenges log? Thanks.

[Terk]

Done that and unstickied the last challenge thread as well.