Are Player Attributes Completely Broken?

[Some Guy!]

Okay... I've done my explination, obviously doesn't matter in this thread.

So we have another nominee for "Stupidest Thread of the Year award!"...

[Guest NUFCMAD999]

there are quite a few players who (being a newcastle fan bellamy and martins spring to mind) have very good shooting technique but (while playing for us at least) often missed sitters because they didn't have the composure of say, alan shearer. a right back may score the odd screamer, but thats not the issue, finishing as far as i'm concerned finishing is a player's shooting technique, and you can have a very good technique at striking the ball but have low composure so you will get it wrong in the big games or when under pressure.

and pace and accelleration are different. you can have a high accelleration but low top speed and vice versa. people are quick over different differences, i really can't see how anyone can debate that tbh. admittadly the two are linked but its still worth seperating them.

[roykela]

OP really explains my point of views on this attribute system.

For me it's simple. If the player can't score as often as the finishing attribute implies (let's just say 20), then basically he's not a good finisher and should never have that particular attribute number. It doesn't make sense.

But i agree with the OP.

[Crpls]

I remember reading a post recently in the data issues forum which summed up what the finishing stat and I can understand why it would be misleading a bit.

It makes sense within the context of the game, but without any explanation in game, I understand why people would think it doesn't entirely fit.

[elsgouro]

Exactly. Therefore, a player with great finishing is not a great finisher, unless he's also greatly composured. I don't know why this is so difficult to accept.

What does it mean to be great at finishing without being greatly composed? It means that you can score very easily when you feel no psychological pressure, but you are often stressed, and that's when (and only then) you mess things up.

First of all I don't have to accept anything that is out of common sence or based on "vinephilosophy". A striker under psycological pressure? A stressed striker? WTF? And when a striker (or any player) is under pressure? When he's in one-on-one situations? When he's playing an away game? When he's playing an important game? So we're talking about a striker-by-order, "ok, he can finish but only under certain circumstanses". Then his finishing is poor.

Pace and Accelaration (I totally agree with you on that one)

That’s absolute nonsense. And you’ve seen players who are quick over longer distances but who are not quick to accelerate?

IMO they need to be seperated. You could see two players that start simultanously, one of them is already 2-3 metres ahead, (better acceleration, or explosion as you said) and after some seconds they have the same speed or the second player catches up. In terms of physics, that's how fast you can reach your max speed. IRL there are training scedules that improve exactlty that, a players ability to sprint, which is vital in short distances, where one or two meters can make a huge difference. Of course, the difference between the two (pace-acceleration) shouln't be ridiculously big, for obvious reasons.

[muncherdave]

Yeah roykela but how frequently they score depends on how good a chance they actually get. The rest of the team might be krap and give him no decent service. Then there's where to draw a line at how many goals a 20 finisher should get?

If its to do with accuracy instead, then a 20 finisher should be able to finish off any chance given to them regardless of the man standing between the sticks. I guess all that stops them from scoring everytime is the other stats like composure and concentration, as well as the fact they are supposed to be human and inexplicable occurences do happen to them. I like this idea, but I'm sure there are plenty of holes that can be picked into it and any other theory anyone can come up with. This topic boggles my mind, you could probably write a thesis on it.

[endtime]

I think the attribute is just misleadingly named. To me, the "finishing" attribute does not cover the player's overall ability to score goals (i.e. some kind of blanket attribute that is a combination of other stats but also seems to exist independently of them) but the technical ability to strike the ball at the goal.

For example, I'd say that I'm pretty good technically when it comes to passing. When I pass or cross the ball it generally ends up where I want it to; I can play curved passes, accurate through balls, long punts over the top, deliver low and tall crosses which reach their intended target. This implies that I am generally good with the ball and therefore should also be at least decent in scoring goals (after all, the general idea with shooting, passing and crossing is roughly the same - the ball needs to end up where you want it to).

However, I am just dreadful at shooting. No matter if it's long or short range, one on one or a header from three meters out, I just can't seem to get it right. And it's not down to composure, because I'm equally terrible when playing an important game in the 6-a-side league or when practicing alone in front of an empty goal. I'll either screw it horribly wide or send it straight at the keeper.

I seem to remember that back in CM 1 and CM 2 there was no "finishing" attribute, only a "shooting" one, and I think that this is what the finishing attribute means.

If its to do with accuracy instead, then a 20 finisher should be able to finish off any chance given to them regardless of the man standing between the sticks.

20 does not mean perfect; it means the best there is. Otherwise what would happen if you put a 20 finishing striker against a 20 reflexes goalkeeper? An unstoppable force meeting an immovable object would cause the universe to implode

[stuboy]

I think the attribute is just misleadingly named. To me, the "finishing" attribute does not cover the player's overall ability to score goals (i.e. some kind of blanket attribute that is a combination of other stats but also seems to exist independently of them) but the technical ability to strike the ball at the goal.

I seem to remember that back in CM 1 and CM 2 there was no "finishing" attribute, only a "shooting" one, and I think that this is what the finishing attribute means.

I think you've hit the nail on the head regarding finishing. Perhaps they could follow the Pro Evo model and have shot power/ shot accuracy as separate stats.

[brightonrock]

Decision

I don’t think it’s anyone right sitting back watching a game to debate decision making on a football pitch. At the moment a player attempts something, it is potentially effective or not. There is always the chance of successfully attempting a move, or to make up for it, and even when something doesn’t go exactly to plan, it leads to a completely different situation. The game of football is just too fluid to leave to be determined by a fixed path. In retrospect, of course it’s possible to claim that a player should have done this or that, etc., and also to say that a player had the right idea, even when a move was disappointingly unsuccessful. The stat Decision is incorrect in my opinion. It shouldn’t determine the odds of making the right decision. How do you decide what is the right decision? I believe there are some clear wrong decisions but a player can do so many things that would be deemed right that this stat should become futile. If instead Decision represented how quickly a player made up his mind, than we would be moving in a different territory. If you don’t see where I’m coming from just ask yourself why is possession football far more effective than most other strategies? Where is the predictable path to be followed when a team strings 25 passes together before finding the back of the net?

Pace and Accelaration (I totally agree with you on that one)

That’s absolute nonsense. And you’ve seen players who are quick over longer distances but who are not quick to accelerate?

The Pace (top speed) / Acceleration association maybe good for SNES race car games, wrongly suggests that a player has a maximum speed and a stable acceleration rate that are independent from each other. To show just how inaccurate this system is, consider the foolishness of trying to identify the two extremes using opposite levels for pace and acceleration--a player with breathtaking maximum speed but is very slow to get going, and a player who picks up a lot of pace really fast but is extremely slow.

Admittedly perhaps reaction and explosion come into question when picking up early pace from a static position. However, even in athletics that difference is incredibly slight. You scarcely see a big difference between a fast starter and the winner of the race during take off that is solely due to the power of the start. Reaction surely played a role also, and by then it is farfetched to claim that a sprinter has a steady acceleration rate until reaches VO max. All he has is his natural pace that he channels the best he can with efficient running form. Acceleration is just an operation that is made afterwards by dividing average speed from 0 to VO max by the length of time to reach the latter. So why account for that in a football simulation is beyond me, although it all stems from the belief that a player has a maximum speed that he is trying to build up to with his acceleration. It all seems a practical system. However, it doesn’t make much sense. Unless we are going to account for power and reaction, which allow for an explosive start, let pace just be pace please.

I don’t even want to talk about Finishing. What is that stat supposed to mean without Composure—that you have a high ratio of putting the ball on target, that you are easily capable of finding the corners, does it affect headed attempts? Also I was really stunned to learn about Free Kicks, and I’m afraid a similar dilemma exists for Corners. Maybe as you say some stats should be obvious composites of others, which would thus eliminate some illogical scenarios we can have in the game.

Especially with finishing, I think people confuse this with shooting. Finishing is the ability of the player to place the ball in the corner of the net, at least this is my understanding. It annoys me when people say, "I'm Chelsea, I played the Dog & Duck in the FA Cup, their striker scored three with 2 finishing, I couldn't score with all my internationals with 17 finishing". Sure, Chelsea should win. But do you seriously imagine a BSS striker physically cannot hit the target at all? Of course he can. BSS/BSN is about 40 tiers higher than I've ever played but I can kick a ball straight at a huge target. Its not about getting shots on target, its about making them hard to save. So Joe Bloggs with 2 finishing finds it difficult to find the corner, he would be more likely to hit it straight at the keeper. But combine finishing (finding the corner) with composure (not getting excited and/or intimidated by the pressure of the situation), technique (the way he kicks the ball, whether he's off balance, whether its a toe-punt or struck firmly and smoothly with the laces etc) and decisions (should I just drill it, should I chip the keeper, go round him, try and use the instep to curl it just inside the post) and there you have a conglomeration of stats that cover the act of shooting.

Similarly, the "he's only got 6 long shots" argument doesn't hold water. 6 Long shots doesn't mean, he cannot score from range. I'm a centre back, I can't shoot for toffee, but I've scored a couple from 25 yards. It just means he's poorer at them than a Prem player. Its not like a Conference side have never scored a 30-yard piledriver.

Acceleration and pace are fine. The way I see it is a short-distance and long distance stat. Running 2 yards in the penalty area for a 50-50 ball requires anticipation and being quick off the mark. Running 50 yards for a long ball over the defence requires pace over a certain distance, the ability to stay at a peak speed. Again to use an example, I've run a 13sec 100m before. Obviously Usain Bolt can run 9.5sec or whatever he got. Not that I'm in any way claiming I could beat him, that'd be ridiculous, but if we both started a race from the start line I'd be beaten in 2m because his acceleration is so incredible. If I started at say, 70m, him at 100m, would I win? Probably not, but I'd have more of a chance because by the time he gets to his peak speed, around the 30m mark, which he then maintains until the end, I'd also have reached mine, and be, say, 50m from the line to his 70. See? In track athletics like sprinting its usually the guy who has the best start who wins, because they all run at more or less the same speed and its acceleration that plays the key role, in the short-distance of the first 10-20m or so. On a football field when Ronaldo gets the ball in his penalty area from a corner and runs the length of the field with the ball, his pace is greater than Titus Bramble, so he runs that distance so much quicker. His acceleration is just time to reach his key pace.

I think I agree with you on decisions however. I think the ability to make the right decision is key. A keeper faced with the option of punch or catch may make the wrong decision- not quite get to the ball and give a weak punch, or try and catch under pressure and drop it. But as you suggest, perhaps decision making time, rather than decision making quality/correctness, might be a better definition of the stat. A player hesitating, especially in defence, is suicidal. But a player choosing to hurriedly clear rather than take the ball down doesn't make himself quite such a nuisance. As I pointed out though, it works well for being on the attack, choosing to chip/round the keeper/blast it/place it. Maybe the attack stat should be something along the lines of Instinct and keep decisions as a defensive stat, but as you suggest, change what it does.

[elsgouro]

So, if Joe Bloggs has low finishing but great composure,he couldn't find the corner, but he wouldn't be exited or indimidated in a difficult situation. Will he score or not? If Joe Bloggs has low finishing but high decision making, he couldn't find the net but he would make the right choise of shot from his repertoire. Will he score then? Or if he's a gifted, technical palyer, he would kick the ball with grace, but being poor at finishing, will he score? Are you kidding me?

Or the opposite: I have high finishing, so I can place the ball in the corner of the net, but can't make the right decision on how to this! Or I often get intimidated and can't score, but I have high finishing. I don't think so...

Finishing is the ability to score. If I have the ability to score then I have the technique, the decions and the composure to do so. That's why I have high finishing.

[Crpls]

In the game, finishing IS NOT the ability to score. That's the point we're trying to make.

It may be mislabeled, and perhaps it is something that needs to be changed, but that's not what it means currently within the game.

[brightonrock]

So, if Joe Bloggs has low finishing but great composure,he couldn't find the corner, but he wouldn't be exited or indimidated in a difficult situation. Will he score or not? If Joe Bloggs has low finishing but high decision making, he couldn't find the net but he would make the right choise of shot from his repertoire. Will he score then? Or if he's a gifted, technical palyer, he would kick the ball with grace, but being poor at finishing, will he score? Are you kidding me?

Or the opposite: I have high finishing, so I can place the ball in the corner of the net, but can't make the right decision on how to this! Or I often get intimidated and can't score, but I have high finishing. I don't think so...

Finishing is the ability to score. If I have the ability to score then I have the technique, the decions and the composure to do so. That's why I have high finishing.

First off, you don't need to get quite so defensive, it wasn't a personal attack, just my interpretation of the meaning of the attributes, I apologise if its annoyed you but jeez, calm down.

Right, so your examples:

Low finishing and great composure

Means in pressure situations, one-on-one etc, he won't buckle mentally. He still can't find the corner particularly well though, so although he will be confident, he still doesn't have the technical ability to place it perfectly in the corner. Will he score? No, not every time, obviously.

Low finishing but high decision making

He will make the correct choice as to what to do- ie with plenty of time he would place it, snap shot if it drops to him in a crowded penalty area rather than taking a touch and risk getting tackled- but if he chooses to place it, again he may not have the technical ability.

a gifted, technical player with low finishing

Well a player who kicks the ball sweetly can still kick it straight at the keeper. How many times have you heard a commentator say "a yard either side of the keeper and he scores"? Its just as opposed to low technique at which point he shanks the ball with a rubbish contact and it can go anywhere.

high finishing and low decisions/composure

Means you are technically good at placing the ball in the corner but a lack of composure may mean you hesitate and the opportuntity is lost, or you make the wrong decision. Despite being technically gifted at placing it, in the moment you go for a chip and put it over.

Finishing isn't scoring. By trying to link decisions and composure (mental stats) with finishing and technique (technical stats) you're lumping everything together arbitrarily without thought for what they mean. They all contribute to the act of shooting and as such they are linked, but they're also independent of each other. How can you say decisions and technique are the same thing? I've seen plenty of people who are technically superb but haven't got two brain cells to rub together and they blaze a simple 8-yard one-on-one into row z, because they have no composure, or poor concentration.

A friend of mine scores some astonishing goals- volleys, shots on the turn, dribbling through five players and scoring from an angle, nothing short of brilliant, but always seems to miss sitters that are on a plate for him. Does that mean because he misses the easy shot he has poor finishing? Or because he scores the difficult ones does he have great finishing? What I'm saying is they are independent of each other and all come under the umbrella of shooting but they're not the same thing and slicing these particular attributes down doesn't make sense.

[elsgouro]

Who said that technique and decisions are the same? And please, leave the "calm down" comments for the kids.

Anyway, you say that finishing isn't scoring. Or the ability to score. It's just the abilty to "place the ball to the corner of the net". In FM terms, I have no problem with that, though I do not agree. But IRL terms it's just pointless to say so, all of us know the basics of football, and we know that finishing=scoring.

So IRL, yes, your friend has poor finishing, actually. In FM he could be a leading striker, though.

[roykela]

Yeah roykela but how frequently they score depends on how good a chance they actually get. The rest of the team might be krap and give him no decent service. Then there's where to draw a line at how many goals a 20 finisher should get?

If its to do with accuracy instead, then a 20 finisher should be able to finish off any chance given to them regardless of the man standing between the sticks. I guess all that stops them from scoring everytime is the other stats like composure and concentration, as well as the fact they are supposed to be human and inexplicable occurences do happen to them. I like this idea, but I'm sure there are plenty of holes that can be picked into it and any other theory anyone can come up with. This topic boggles my mind, you could probably write a thesis on it.

Yeah, i didn't actually mean score. Didn't even think i wrote that, but i did lol. Not gonna start writing straight after getting up from bed again

What i actually meant was the quality of finishing. If the attribute on finishing is 20, then i would expect to see more finishes between the posts. Better quality on the finishing. If it's a goal or not depends on the GK as well, of course.

In my opinion, if there is a finishing abilitypoint, then i would like to think that all the other abilities, like composure, technique, off the ball etc. would've been covered in that finishing ability. Otherwise i wouldn't see the point of having that particular ability there, as it's own visible skill.

If you take away everything that is needed, like getting in position, composure etc. to be able to have the chance to finish, what does the finishing skill do?

To put it in another way. If you just have the finishing skill, and only that. What does it do? What does that ability alone cover?

[Brian Shanahan]

I agree with the OP on most of the points. I think someone said above that attributes like free kicks and finshing should be guide, ie average of all the other attributes needed e.g. composure, technique, shooting etc. (sorry cant remember who and cant find the post, tryng to play the game read the post and watch utd blackburn).

However I do disagree with him on the pace/acceleration issue. In school we had a phys ed teacher who could beat anyone over ten metres (acceleration) but because he was in his 50s he would lose over 250 (pace). So I'm of the opinion that both are very seperate although strongly linked.

[x42bn6]

And to pile-on with the acceleration/pace issue: Messi isn't that fast, but what kills static defenders is his ability to go from 0 to top speed in a split second (oh, and toss in his agility, balance and dribbling).

And I disagree with the OP about Bramble - Bramble is alright at marking and covering, but he has a goldfish's level of concentration. It's why he is a decent defender when he is concentrating properly, but he brainfarts on a consistent basis, and such is his level of brainfarting that it always costs the opposition a goal.

[IzzetLeicester]

What does decisions mean in the game then? I thought having 20 meant the ability to make quick and assertive decisions not mattering whether its right or wrong whilst having a 1 would mean a player that cant make up his mind and faffs around?

[mlp071]

It looks to me that lot of people wants this game to switch to arcade , now when it's not that easy to find "Diablo" tactics anymore.

All the stats account for something with higher or lower multiplier when it comes to gameplay.

For scoring , example, finishing will have higher coefficient of input in final value then for example decision, but both(and some others) will be part of the final calculation.In addition to that game calculate relevant opponents players, weather, etc...

This is simulation, not "Space Invaders" game after all.

Having only finishing to account for scoring will just make game arcade, with things that are nearly impossible in RL, like 160 cm striker scoring 30+ goals from headers and such.

Then we will have probably complaints about how ME is cheating. Oh wait , some people are already imagining those things.

As for what which attribute represents..it use to be in manuals, so read those (maybe older ones) or Google it..sheesh

[roykela]

It's in the manual, but not detailed enough. We're not looking for the "Diablo" tactic. We don't want to make it easier to win. Just easier to understand.

I would like to think that all of us understand what you mean mlp071, but what you talk about here, if i understand the OP correctly, is really not the point at all.

Say one player has got all the good attributes in the right places to be a good finisher, but then has a finishing attribute of 5 (just took a random number to make it easier to understand what i mean). Why does that player have 5 when everything else is perfectly good?!

Or the other way around. A player has finishing 20, but not the necessary abilities in other places to deserve that attribute in finishing. Why does he have 20 in finishing in the first place?

I would still love to hear some theories, though on the finishing attribute. If all the other attributes are taken away, what does one single attribute mean by it self? Let's say finishing!

[Crpls]

Read post #62. That's where the finishing attribute is most accurately explained. Again, whether it should be called 'Finishing' is another story.

[Rupal]

Are people defining 'finishing' as 'shooting accuracy' then, judging from the comments about finding the corner of the net? Maybe it should also involve being able to shoot with reasonable power.

If this is what it means, it's obvious that you need lots of other qualities as well to become a consistent goal scorer, like decision making (so that you choose a sensible spot to shoot accurately at), composure (so you don't panic and blaze the ball miles over the bar), positioning and anticipation (so that you actually are in the right place to score) and so on.

I've had a very successful goal scorer at Scottish Division 3 level with a finishing stat of only 7. He scored from lots of very easy chances that even I wouldn't have missed because he was in the right place at the right time all the time.

[danodamano]

Tedder_Road

This is a very good thread, and an interesting read. My take on the idea of multi-placed stats is usually that they are seperated into two, much similar to the Flair/Technique idea.

On one hand you have a player who KNOWS exactly where he wants to put the ball when one-on-one with the keeper, but due to a poor technique, he can't implement his idea and scuffs his shot/it goes wide etc. And on the other hand you have a player who lacks the composure and decision making necessary to decide where to put it, but a good technique allows him to power it past the keeper regardless. This is the seperation of finishing and composure for me, however I agree that If each technical attribute has an equal and opposite mental attribute (finishing and composure) (Marking and Concentration) etc then surely that defies the point of a "Technique" attribute, because it should ALL be technique).

I don't know how heavily weighted technique is in the game, but it's impossible to have an over-riding attribute such as that. You see a player like Paul Scholes, who can ping a pass over 60 yards onto the head/foot of a team-mate, but can he hit a free-kick like Ronaldo? Can he heck! On the one hand when passing a ball, his technique is second to none, however how can he be called a 19/20 on "Technique" if he can't hit a free-kick as well as the best of the best? So either there has to be a mental attribute + Technique for all ball related skills (EG Composure, Decision making and Technique make up a players "Finishing attiribute", or technique itself, among other dubious attributes has to be scrapped, otherwise somewhere along the line there will be an anomaly of a player (such as Scholes) who will no longer fit the principles of the game.

[muncherdave]

It's in the manual, but not detailed enough. We're not looking for the "Diablo" tactic. We don't want to make it easier to win. Just easier to understand.

I would like to think that all of us understand what you mean mlp071, but what you talk about here, if i understand the OP correctly, is really not the point at all.

Say one player has got all the good attributes in the right places to be a good finisher, but then has a finishing attribute of 5 (just took a random number to make it easier to understand what i mean). Why does that player have 5 when everything else is perfectly good?!

Or the other way around. A player has finishing 20, but not the necessary abilities in other places to deserve that attribute in finishing. Why does he have 20 in finishing in the first place?

I would still love to hear some theories, though on the finishing attribute. If all the other attributes are taken away, what does one single attribute mean by it self? Let's say finishing!

I think all or most the stats have to be linked to their mental capabilities though. Take Cristiano Ronaldo for instance, when he first started playing for United he was doing a billion stepovers but not really doing anything with the ball. He had the ability to play an excellent pass or smash in the ball but mentally he hadn't developed enough yet. If you look at him now though he gets results most of the time and does things that he should have been doing before but never. It's just the way they are linked and the importance that gets confusing to me I think.

I am doing my best to try and explain this well but I'm extremely hungover.

[pool]

Hey guys this is my first post

I don't think the problem lies with the stats themselves. I mean the stats they chose to depict the game because they're pretty spot on. I think the problem lies in the wording. I'll go over the few mentioned here..

Decisions - Very important in football, when to make a forward run when to take a shot who to pass the ball to to get a move going. Bad decisions can kill an attack or can a put a team mate under pressure.

Acc & Pace - Like someone up there mentioned some people are faster over a few yards but lose their edge over a distance. I personally don't start strong but I tend to out run most in a longer sprint because I'm heavier getting off the line so to speak. Messi was a good example I think Torres is also a good example.. Known in football as change in pace.

Composure - This doesn't affect a player's finishing stat some players are amazing finishers but buckle under pressure. Meaning they can score amazing goals time and time again when not under pressure due to time or match intensity (cup final/derby).

Now the two that need clarification are finishing and FKs.

Finishing - Could mean good at deciding where best to place the ball to beat the keeper and still get it on target (basically placement - technique would be important because a player would need to have good technique to match his idea.. As my friend always says when completely messing up a shot "it looked much better in my head") I say this because the alternative would make the technique attribute useless. It makes more sense that decisions in the match engine at least would effect when to make runs and who to pass to things like that and not smaller things like choosing top right corner or bottom left. Having said that decisions are still important for a striker but maybe not as important as it would be for a defensive or midfield player.

FK attribute also makes sense dead ball situations are different than open play. A player could be really good at crossing but not really that good at corners or free kicks from a wide position. While someone can score tons of goals from distance but put a wall in front of them and they just keep banging away at it. Having a high free kick attribute while having low technique and crossing while wrong doesn't take anything away from the game. You look at high free kick you think ohh could be my free kick taker then you look at the other stats they're not up to par so you move on and look for another guy. It's unrealistic yes but shouldn't ruin a game.

I think SI should really release some sort of tutorial to explain these things in detail not in game hints and tips that barely stay on screen long enough to be read let alone digested. Fifa have this little display thing when ever you fiddle around with a tactic like passing that shows how the players move if you set passing at slow normal or fast. They show you an example of how the ball would travel and how your players should theoretically move. SI should think of implementing something like that instead of keeping us guessing. Just a general idea of course not the exact out come of how your team will pass it if you set a slider a certain point given the plethora of attributes that affect everything. You should check out FIFA 09 to get an idea of what I mean.

I take personal issue with creativity. Apparently it's how often players ignore your instructions but I've always thought it had to do with a player's vision. You know spotting a run and threading the ball through and things like that. I'm assuming vision in FM has to do with anticipation maybe? Anticipating runs or something like that and if a guy has good passing then they should through ball often? I dont know help here would be appreciated.

[AB-forever]

I take personal issue with creativity. Apparently it's how often players ignore your instructions but I've always thought it had to do with a player's vision. You know spotting a run and threading the ball through and things like that. I'm assuming vision in FM has to do with anticipation maybe? Anticipating runs or something like that and if a guy has good passing then they should through ball often? I dont know help here would be appreciated.

Creativity is vision, creative freedom is how much you allow him to ignore your instructions.

[mimland]

I have said it before and I'm gonna say it again. The attributes seem to be very little of a players ability in this game. Looking at scouts and coaches they find players with the crappiest attributes and is of the opinion that they will rock the world and be the heroes of the century and then the find player with great attributes and consider them to be total crap. Sure once in awhile I could agree with but it happens too often.

Watching players with good pace and acceleration getting constantly outrun by crawlers is another thing that makes me think the way I do. I think 09 is alittle better in the aspect of valuing attributes but there is still some way to go. I know the hidden stats has to be counted in aswell and that is all good but not sure which hidden stat allows a player to get worldbeating attributes and play like everytime is his first on a footballpitch.

[Mitja]

agree with a lot that OP has to say (not all). i got used to it but don't understand why is technique stat linked with kicking a ball (passing, finishing), what i want to say is that 'shooting or passing technique' should be included in shooting/passing stat. it's like you need to have good technique for heading a ball, which we know it's not a case.

a couple of more obvious examples; free kicks + crossing = corner stat? technique + composure/pressure = penalty taking stat?

[Arecibo]

I completely agree that free kicks are not done well in this FM. Finishing however is fine, all things being equal, finishing of 15 will score more than finishing of 10.

The pace/acceleration argument does not stand, it's basic physics. Acceleration is a completely different phisycal quantity than velocity (pace).