AI Squad Management - I despair

[numbas2]

Champions League Final squad management. I left United in the summer prior and decided to go to the UCL final to watch. 

Only to see they had fielded a world class AM at DC, partnered by a breakthrough prospect and another at DMC.

Despite established first teamers being available (one of which was tired, great management there)

This is ridiculous and undermines achievements in the game when this is the standard of AI we're playing against. Not to mention the established issues with general AI squad building. Not going to talk about what the manager did to my world beating team in general after I left... crying shame.

[numbas2]

No idea why he has become an accomplished DC...

 

[numbas2]

Played at DC

 

[numbas2]

Played at DM

 

[numbas2]

DC alternatives - club legends really.

 

[numbas2]

DM alternatives - again legends of the club

 

[numbas2]

The four legends weren't even in the squad. One is unfit for some reason and another needs a rest. 

[Zachary Whyte]

If you have a save from before the final took place we can take a closer look. 

[inacion]

On 14/04/2024 at 13:19, numbas2 said:

Champions League Final squad management. I left United in the summer prior and decided to go to the UCL final to watch. 

Only to see they had fielded a world class AM at DC, partnered by a breakthrough prospect and another at DMC.

Despite established first teamers being available (one of which was tired, great management there)

This is ridiculous and undermines achievements in the game when this is the standard of AI we're playing against. Not to mention the established issues with general AI squad building. Not going to talk about what the manager did to my world beating team in general after I left... crying shame.

On my first FM24 save with Torquay for countless times I was able to assume high pressure strategy against opponents that under normal conditions would beat my team because of poor AI people management. While I do some rotation and try minimize as much as I can the game time to tired players or with poor physical condition, the AI doesn't seems to do it well. I didn't check if those managers had a poor people management attribute

[numbas2]

4 hours ago, Zachary Whyte said:

If you have a save from before the final took place we can take a closer look. 

 

[DP]

7 hours ago, Zachary Whyte said:

If you have a save from before the final took place we can take a closer look. 

Out of interest, you must be aware of these general trends? And the limitations of the AI. I’m convinced a save game here will give you no more insight than what you already have as you know the intricacies of how the AI works (and has done like this for some time). 

[Brodie21]

With the leaping advances of AI in general, it is something that desperately needs to be updated within the whole game e.g. choice of players, positions, formations, transfer targets etc

[afailed10]

This ruins the game for me and part of the reason I haven't yet "upgraded" from FM21. It's been downhill since FM18 in terms of AI squad and player development. For casuals this may not seem a big deal but for hardcore players this simply undermines all your efforts.

[tonidopa]

It's easy. People complained that the AI wasn't developing youth players and some developer changed it so now it throws random kids into the lineups and bench without any clue at all, leaving senior players out for no reason.

Simply put, the AI is as messed up as it ever has been.

 

[Rodrigogc]

1 hora atrás, tonidopa disse:

It's easy. People complained that the AI wasn't developing youth players and some developer changed it so now it throws random kids into the lineups and bench without any clue at all, leaving senior players out for no reason.

Simply put, the AI is as messed up as it ever has been.

 

Basically what has been done for years when it comes to solving problems in FM. Can't solve a problem for good ? Then you solve it by creating another one that will be solved by creating another one and so on and so forth.

[SPE3D]

It's funny I read these types of threads but I don't see these problems in my games. I'm in season 2036 so a similar stage to you but I'm finding AI squad building better than ever. 

Every now and then I will check games or teams just as you have and the AI are picking the right players they're rotating players in cup games or games against easier opposition they're resting tired players. When I look at their squads they are using the whole squad.

So I wonder why others don't have this experience and I think it's all down to the way you set your games up.  Football manager is such a large game and can be set up in literally thousands of different ways and I think a poorly balanced setup is the reason so many people don't get the experience I do.

 

 

[Brodie21]

1 hour ago, SPE3D said:

It's funny I read these types of threads but I don't see these problems in my games. I'm in season 2036 so a similar stage to you but I'm finding AI squad building better than ever. 

Every now and then I will check games or teams just as you have and the AI are picking the right players they're rotating players in cup games or games against easier opposition they're resting tired players. When I look at their squads they are using the whole squad.

So I wonder why others don't have this experience and I think it's all down to the way you set your games up.  Football manager is such a large game and can be set up in literally thousands of different ways and I think a poorly balanced setup is the reason so many people don't get the experience I do.

 

 

Don't leave us all hanging. How do you set up? 

[mlpowell]

It's kind of like your assistant's suggested lineups - it's the Champion's League final, this is the time to give your third string goalkeeper a time to shine!

The AI doesn't seem to be able to differentiate between a major continental league and a random second-tier cup.

[Rodrigogc]

10 horas atrás, mlpowell disse:

It's kind of like your assistant's suggested lineups - it's the Champion's League final, this is the time to give your third string goalkeeper a time to shine!

The AI doesn't seem to be able to differentiate between a major continental league and a random second-tier cup.

Actually it does differentiate, as reputation is one of the, if no the, most important criteria to decision making by the AI. But it seems now many other factors are being taken into the calculation and some sort of compensation (more weight to physical condition ? morale?) made by developers is hindering logical decisions by the AI. I'm not sure of this, but FM has a history of AI lining up players just because of their reputation so it doesn't make sense that a third GK would be prefered over the main one in an important competition if not for some type of compensation. 

I've seen many weird decisions in this version that made me drop the game this year. Ported a FM23 save as St Pauli to FM24, my first game against Bayern I saw Marcos Leonardo playing as a CM and Wirtz as a winger. They didn't create any goal scoring chance worth noticing against me, which frustrated me a lot. And I saw many other weird lineups, even Juventus being relegated in my Sampdoria save. 

Edited Friday at 11:29 by Rodrigogc

[SPE3D]

14 hours ago, Brodie21 said:

Don't leave us all hanging. How do you set up? 

Iis all about creating a balanced game world. So running a few leagues on full detail from each continent. Going into the advanced section and making sure parts of every continent are installed too. Using a large database. 

The aim is to create a balanced game world where every continent is well represented. There are articles on this forum that go into much more detail.

 

 

 

[tezcatlipoca665]

I run a lot of leagues from each continent (probably too many for most people, and a lot more with added league mods now this past while), and I can confirm that this hasn't helped me with AI squad building and AI squad selection issues in the slightest.

[Brodie21]

7 hours ago, SPE3D said:

Iis all about creating a balanced game world. So running a few leagues on full detail from each continent. Going into the advanced section and making sure parts of every continent are installed too. Using a large database. 

The aim is to create a balanced game world where every continent is well represented. There are articles on this forum that go into much more detail.

 

 

 

Hmmm i'll take a look but i'm dubious that would work - especially with the numerous people that experience this issue, including @tezcatlipoca665 comment directly above

[tonidopa]

The solution would be for the AI to have a clear idea of the squad, which players can play where (properly training them to do so) and also having a small selection of youth players (3-4) that wants to give chances to during the season and are kept in the U21s or B squad.

In order to do so, squads would need to be smaller and better built. In the second season of most games, for example, Man City has a first squad of almost 40 because of all the players returning from loans (the game is specially bad at this, as big teams usually have no more than 5-8 players loaned out when in reality you could see 20-25).

To sum up: smaller senior squads and better built Youth teams with selected prospects in them.

[tezcatlipoca665]

January 2024 into a new save and Leandro Trossard is transfer listed 'deemed surplus to requirements' by Arsenal and is about to go on loan to Man Utd. Unreal.

[NineCloudNine]

On 26/04/2024 at 14:49, SPE3D said:

Iis all about creating a balanced game world. So running a few leagues on full detail from each continent. Going into the advanced section and making sure parts of every continent are installed too. Using a large database. 

 

 

 

I do this. I have a very strong PC. Huge game worlds. AI still sucks at developing young players. Large game worlds produce more players from more places, but AI managers still don’t develop them.

Young player development needs to be an active process. AI managers play kids/newgens  with high CA, but they do not take low CA/high PA players and actively develop them.

Edited Saturday at 21:27 by NineCloudNine

[jcafcwbb]

Do the Premier League teams really develop young players though? Maybe some of the smaller ones by necessity.

But look at City. It is only really Foden who has come through their youth set up. The other U25s have been bought in from other clubs where they have been developed. If you look at most Premier League clubs the ones coming through are the ones who will always make it. They very rarely, if at all, take a player who is below Premier League level and develop them into Premier League.

What needs to be improved is the AI recruitment and from there the AI team's strength.

Even in League Two my team, AFC Wimbledon, will routinely lose our better better players. Ollie Palmer, Jack Rudoni, Ayoub Assal, Ali Al-Hamadi and this summer Jack Currie all did great things for us but have been taken by bigger clubs than us. In the game we are less likely to lose our best players in this way and if we find a wonderkid we can keep him beyond what happens in real life.

Paqueta has done well for West Ham but is probably on his way to Man City.

The real thing AI has to improve on is recruitment and the bigger clubs using their muscle to take wonderkids away from the clubs that found them.

[NineCloudNine]

7 hours ago, jcafcwbb said:

Do the Premier League teams really develop young players though? Maybe some of the smaller ones by necessity.

 

There’s a big world outside the EPL .

There are entire leagues - Brazil for instance - where developing young players for sale is the econonic model.

There are big clubs - Benfica for example - who fund their annual budget selling players from their academy.

There are famous clubs - Ajax for example - where use of the youth team is deeply rooted in the cultural identity of the club.

Even in the PL there are clubs - Man Utd for example - who take pride in their academy players.

Every club sometimes gets a gem who can be nurtured into a star with care.

None of these are reflected in the game. As another poster said above, every club makes the same transfers. The variety and cultural difference does exist in the form of club culture and chairperson preferences and expectations, they are just not given any consequence.

Edited Sunday at 17:12 by NineCloudNine

[DP]

22 hours ago, jcafcwbb said:

Do the Premier League teams really develop young players though? Maybe some of the smaller ones by necessity.

But look at City. It is only really Foden who has come through their youth set up. The other U25s have been bought in from other clubs where they have been developed. If you look at most Premier League clubs the ones coming through are the ones who will always make it. They very rarely, if at all, take a player who is below Premier League level and develop them into Premier League.

What needs to be improved is the AI recruitment and from there the AI team's strength.

Even in League Two my team, AFC Wimbledon, will routinely lose our better better players. Ollie Palmer, Jack Rudoni, Ayoub Assal, Ali Al-Hamadi and this summer Jack Currie all did great things for us but have been taken by bigger clubs than us. In the game we are less likely to lose our best players in this way and if we find a wonderkid we can keep him beyond what happens in real life.

Paqueta has done well for West Ham but is probably on his way to Man City.

The real thing AI has to improve on is recruitment and the bigger clubs using their muscle to take wonderkids away from the clubs that found them.

Foden, Rico Lewis, Cole Palmer, Oscar Bobb. 

[mlpowell]

On 27/04/2024 at 04:44, tonidopa said:

The solution would be for the AI to have a clear idea of the squad, which players can play where (properly training them to do so) 

 

A very small quality of life change would be your staff automatically training players (even if only youth/reserves) in the positions and roles you actually use. If you run a 3-4-3 or 5-3-2 (etc.) formation, the U18 coaches should probably know that your wingbacks should be trained as WBR/WBLs rather the DR/DLs. 

Not having your head of scouting tell you that you need to scout and sign some CAMs because you're weak in that position that you don't use at all would also be nice. 

Edited yesterday at 07:53 by mlpowell