FM23.4: Frozen in time- UEFA club competition formats (1994-97)

[irish kopite]

Edit 26/05/2023- File has been fixed for some issues identified and can be used for 23.4.0. There are now realistic awards for the Cup Winners' Cup and UEFA Cup. I've also fixed some other issues which were bugging me. The fixture schedule in the Champions League group phase is as it was in the mid 1990s and I've fixed some colour schemes. Also, Lazio do not qualify as defending holders of the CWC in the first season, defending holders will qualify for the following season's CWC from 23/24 provided they do not win their domestic top flight title. The 22/23 Super Cup is played between Real Madrid and Eintracht Frankfurt (as UEFA Cup holders) but reverts to Champions League holders vs. CWC holders from 23/24.

Thanks to @ \'Appy \'Ammer  80's file for showing me how to do this.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________

It's summer 1997. Borussia Dortmund are the last European club champions, having beaten Juventus in the 1996/97 UEFA Champions League final in Munich. European club football is however on the cusp of major historical change, driven by the continent's biggest clubs.

Since the early 1970s, there has been three main European club competitions. Each of them had a distinct identity arising from their entry criteria. They were-

• the European Champion Clubs' Cup, aka the European Cup, a competition run since the mid to late 1950s for all of the champions of Europe's domestic leagues.
• Its twin was the European Cup Winners' Cup (UEFA Cup Winners' Cup from 1994/95) for all of the continent's domestic cup winners.
• Finally, there was the UEFA Cup. From the early 1970s, it was the successor to the Fairs Cup. The UEFA Cup was sometimes referred to as the 'runners up' cup, reserved for the teams who finished second in their domestic top flights the previous season. However, similar to the modern Champions League, the bigger nations like England, Italy, Spain, Germany etc had multiple entrants per season. For example, prior to the Heysel Ban in 1985, English teams entered four teams each season.

All three competitions were played as single elimination, and unseeded, knock-out tournaments.

The vehicle of change was the European Cup. UEFA had come under intense pressure from the mid to late 1980s from the continents biggest clubs who were seeking greater revenues than clubs in traditionally smaller European nations and were threatening to break away and form a European Super League. As a result, UEFA introduced an 8-team group stage with effect from 1991/92, replacing the quarter-final and semi- final stages. The winner of each group played each other in the European Cup Final. From 1992/93, the new group stage had a new name- the UEFA Champions League, coincidentally the same season the Premier League replaced the Football League Division One in English football.

However, the biggest clubs were still not happy. The new European Cup format was neither fish nor fowl. The champions of the big nations still had to run the gauntlet of unseeded knock-out games in the first two rounds of the new format before reaching the lucrative Champions League stage and, horror of horrors, possibly played against each other. Many fans of European football felt the new later stage group format was dull and unexciting. The Champions League pleased nobody.

Another major problem was the number of dead rubber group games at what was, and still is, the traditional business end of the season. Crucially, the contract with Europe's public service media TV providers, through the European Broadcasting Union, was due to expire with effect from 1994/95. In order to make the competition more appealing to satellite and pay per view TV providers across the continent, and more lucrative for the clubs and themselves of course, UEFA decided to introduce a new radical European Cup format for season 1994/95. This new format replicated the new European Championship format for Euro 96 in England.

From August 1994, the European Cup became officially known as the UEFA Champions League from start to finish. The competition proper would begin with a pre- Christmas 16 team group stage, split into four groups of four. The top two clubs in each group progressed to the post- Christmas knockout stage, beginning with the quarter finals in early March.

Controversially, UEFA also decided to give byes to the title holders and domestic champions of the top nations 1-7, all of whom started the competition in the group stage. The remaining eight clubs came from the winners of an August qualifying round of 16 played by the champions of nations 8-23 (or 9-24) using an early form of coefficient. For the first time and perhaps disgracefully, the champions of smaller nations 23 or 24 to 48 were shut out of the European Cup/ Champions League. Instead they entered the UEFA Cup. The Cup Winners' Cup remained unchanged.

UEFA probably initially believed they had squared the circle and addressed the concerns of all parties. The biggest clubs received byes to the group stage and were seeded, giving them the best possible chance of reaching the knockout stage against the other big clubs. The satellite TV companies were willing to pay big money for rights to this new format while also satisfying the millions of paying TV viewers by returning to the traditional end of season knock-out games played by many of the champions of Europe's biggest nations. Everyone was a winner, so it seemed anyway.

However, by 1996 the biggest clubs planned a radical new European Super League, including an additional knock-out cup competition for its members. It was clear that the format change to and the clever marketing of the Champions League had created something of a commercial juggernaut to the detriment of the other two more traditional competitions, particularly the Cup Winners’ Cup. Rather than placate the burgeoning super clubs, UEFA had fed a crocodile and with effect from 1997/98, the Champions League was expanded to include the 8 runners-up from nations 1-8. This was when the clear and definitive break from the old European Cup tradition happened.

By 99/00, the competition was further expanded to include the top four finishing teams from the biggest nations, starting with a 32-team group stage. The modern Champions League was born - a European super league by the backdoor. The old European Cup, founded by the sporting ideal to crown a European club champion- the Champion of Champions- was dead, killed off in favour of commercial necessity. The quality of the UEFA Cup and Cup Winners' Cup was also severely hallowed out with the Cup Winners' Cup becoming a bit of an anachronistic farce as the turn of the century approached. By 1999, the competition was disbanded and combined with an expanded UEFA Cup, itself a pale imitation of its 1970s and 1980s heyday.

But what if?

What if for example the 1996 plans collapsed as a result of similar fan outrage and protest, as seen in 2021, and the financiers of the new ESL pulled out?

What if UEFA faced the continent's biggest clubs down and buried the ESL for a few generations, at least, and retained the European club competition formats as they were in 1996/97, with some minor practical adjustments?

This file is for football fans like me who lived through the major changes of the late 1990s but who wished the commercialisation of the game stopped around 1996 or 1997.

Truth be told, I initially welcomed many of the changes in the 1990s. I thought they were good for the game. All seater stadia in England- I remember the dark days of the 1980s and early 1990s, the crap grounds, hooligans, risking bottles in the head, TV blackouts with no football to watch or an odd game on a Sunday afternoon. I also thought the new Champions League format was exciting. I was heavily influenced by the brilliant 1995 Ajax team (and Euro 96), who were the poster boys of the new era. After all, the CWC and the UEFA Cup remained on Tuesdays and Thursday nights for a more traditional offering. For me, the mid-1990s saw a blending of the new with the best of the old.

Incidentally, I don't remember anybody, managers, players, fans or commentators, referring to the European Cup as the Champions League until the early 2000s, when the tournament became one to include non-champions, as if to signify a definitive break between the old European Cup tradition and the new hyper commercialisation of the 21st century. It was simply "The European Cup" throughout the 1990s, THE Holy Grail.  European football in the 1990s had a mystique. Each of the three tournaments was unique, winning one was a major achievement. But the European Cup was the big one. The Champions League was just a UEFA marketing slogan. I think the expansion in 1999 to include two group stages changed the public perception and referring to the competition as the European Cup met with mocking derision. The pace of change in just a few years was startling.

By the early 2000s, that mystique had really gone for me. I thought Man United's 1999 win (the first non-reigning domestic or title holder to lift the trophy) was an abomination, and not just because it was United! Why? Even though my own club has also won two Champions Leagues, I still haven't buried the old European Cup tradition and like many Liverpool fans my age, I haven't fully reconciled to the new way of doing things and the hyper commercialised footballing world as we approach the quarter mark of the 21st century. Those first four European Cups mean much more to me as deep down I feel as if we don't deserve numbers 5 and 6. 2005 was a great experience but the season before we were miles behind a fantastic Arsenal side.

At the end of each season I also still nerdishly look to see who would’ve entered the old competitions based on final league tables and who won the domestic cup competitions. I think the modern Liverpool, Man Utd and Chelsea have won the European Super Bowl equivalent, a bland, bloated corporate aberration and the forthcoming changes to a 36-team league turn the competition into a farce. Yes, winning the Champions League is a major achievement but those who do are not European Champions. Using the 2019 Champions League Final as an example, how can teams who finished 3rd and 4th the prior season and haven’t won a domestic top flight title in 29 or 58 years call themselves European Champions!

This file is an alternative, driven by the principle that the Champions League is for champions only. This has knock-on effects for the other two main European competitions-

UEFA Champions League

Competition proper commences with a 16-team group stage. Top 2 in each group progresses to the quarter- finals. The title holders and domestic champions of the top 7 nations based on current UEFA coefficient enter at the group stage and are seeded. Unlike the Champions League of the mid 1990s, there are three prior qualifying rounds. Domestic champions of associations 8 to 15 are given byes to the playoff round, where they play the winners of a qualifying series played by the domestic champions of associations 16 to 47. The eight Playoff winners advance to the group stage, where they are unseeded. The Quarter and Semi Finals are two legged affairs which include the away goals rule tiebreaker and finishing with a single leg final at a neutral venue.

(If a title holder also wins its domestic top flight title in the same season, the domestic champion of association 48 takes the title holder’s place, with knock-on effects for the stage some teams enter. For example, the domestic champions of the top 8 associations enter at the group stage).

Losers of a qualifying round or Playoff do not drop down to the UEFA Cup.

 

UEFA Cup Winners’ Cup

Contested by the 48 domestic winners of the main national cup competition (or the runners-up of the cup if the winners do a domestic double and/or also win the Champions League in the same season). There is a preliminary round played by the cup winners of smaller nations based on in-game league reputation to reduce the competition to 32 teams, followed by four knock-out rounds and finishing with a single leg final at a neutral venue. All rounds include the away goals rule.

Title holders are given a wildcard entry to the following season’s Cup Winners’ Cup if they fail to win their domestic title. If the title holder also wins its domestic cup in the same season, the cup runners-up take that nation’s place.

UEFA Cup

Contested by 71 teams. There is a preliminary round played by teams from smaller nations based on in-game reputation to reduce the competition to 64 teams. There are then five knockout rounds finishing with a single leg final at a neutral venue. All rounds include the away goals rule.

England, Spain, Italy, Germany enter four teams. France, Holland, Portugal and Belgium enter three teams. Scotland, Austria and Russia enter two teams. All other nations enter their top flight runners- up (or 3rd place finishers should the runners-up enter the Cup Winners’ Cup).

Title holders are given a wildcard entry to the following season’s UEFA Cup if they fail to qualify for European competition by other means. Therefore, some nations may enter five teams, like Germany for season 2022-23.

The Carabao Cup winners are given a UEFA Cup place if they fail to qualify for European competition by other means, but England is limited to four entrants, apart from the title holder scenario described above. If the Carabao Cup winner qualifies for European competition by other means, its place reverts to the Premier League.

UEFA Super Cup

Single leg final at Stade Louis Monaco in August and contested by the winners of the previous season's Champions League and Cup Winners' Cup.

 

Credits

This file has been a very long time in the making for me. I wish to really thank the 1980s guru @ \'Appy \'Ammer for his help and advice. This file is a collaboration between him and me. Please use his 80s Dutch Cup file or the Dutch Cup won't run. His Icelandic fix also got me over the last hurdle for a 23.4 release. Cheers Appy!

@Carlito85 If you ever come back online, many thanks. I picked up loads from your files and they thought me how to use the Editor. I was a total novice before I got looking at them.

I've also picked up a hell of a lot from reading comments by @themodelcitizen His World Club Cup file plus @ \'Appy \'Ammer  FA Cup Semi- Final file really gives that mid to late 1990s/ 2000 feel to a save before the old Wembley was demolished, when the World Club Cup started with the 7 team format (and United pulled out of the FA Cup!), Cup semi-finals at neutral grounds other than Wembley, Cup replays etc.

@ZahnZee I wouldn't never have gotten the Cup Winners' Cup working as intended without examining (forensically!) your video.

Last, but not least, the formidable @Wolf_pd Again, I picked up loads of tips from your Iron Curtain files.

 

 

I'd welcome any views on the file, especially any mistakes I didn't pick up in testing.

I hope anybody who uses gets some joy out of it. It proved to be a real trip down memory lane for me, to a much simpler and innocent time when football was still largely just a sport.

 

 

 

 

 

Season 1997-98 European club competition ALTERNATIVE.fmf

Edited May 26, 2023 by irish kopite
Update to editor file- 26/05/2023

[\'Appy \'Ammer]

Superb mate. Great narrative there. Really rolls back to the days of yesteryear! Well done, glad you got it over the line. 👍

[VP.]

Brilliant idea, I miss the old European comps and have always believed the Champions League should only be for the champions of each nation. Will definitely give this a go at some point with the hope of creating our win in Copenhagen 1994, I won't mention the 95 final and Nayim though...

[Wolf_pd]

2 hours ago, irish kopite said:

It's summer 1997. Borussia Dortmund are the last European club champions, having beaten Juventus in the 1996/97 UEFA Champions League final in Munich. European club football is however on the cusp of major historical change, driven by the continent's biggest clubs.

Since the early 1970s, there has been three main European club competitions. Each of them had a distinct identity arising from their entry criteria. They were-

• the European Champion Clubs' Cup, aka the European Cup, a competition run since the mid to late 1950s for all of the champions of Europe's domestic leagues.
• Its twin was the European Cup Winners' Cup (UEFA Cup Winners' Cup from 1994/95) for all of the continent's domestic cup winners.
• Finally, there was the UEFA Cup. From the early 1970s, it was the successor to the Fairs Cup. The UEFA Cup was sometimes referred to as the 'runners up' cup, reserved for the teams who finished second in their domestic top flights the previous season. However, similar to the modern Champions League, the bigger nations like England, Italy, Spain, Germany etc had multiple entrants per season. For example, prior to the Heysel Ban in 1985, English teams entered four teams each season.

All three competitions were played as single elimination, and unseeded, knock-out tournaments.

The vehicle of change was the European Cup. UEFA had come under intense pressure from the mid to late 1980s from the continents biggest clubs who were seeking greater revenues than clubs in traditionally smaller European nations and were threatening to break away and form a European Super League. As a result, UEFA introduced an 8-team group stage with effect from 1991/92, replacing the quarter-final and semi- final stages. The winner of each group played each other for in the European Cup Final. This stage in the tournament became known as the UEFA Champions League with effect from 1992/93, coincidentally the same season the Premier League replaced the Football League Division One in English football.

However, the biggest clubs were still not happy. The new format was neither fish nor fowl. The champions of the big nations still had to run the gauntlet of unseeded knock-out games in the first two rounds of the European Cup and, horror of horrors, possibly playing against each other. Many fans of European football felt the new later stage group format was dull and unexciting. The Champions League pleased nobody. Another major problem was the dead rubber group games at the traditional business end of the season and crucially, the contract with Europe's public service media TV providers, through the European Broadcasting Union, was due to expire with effect from 1994/95. In order to make the competition more appealing to satellite and pay per view TV providers across the continent, and more lucrative for the clubs and themselves, UEFA decided to introduce a new radical format for the Champions League for season 1994/95. The new format replicated the new European Championship format for EURO 96 in England and the new competition became officially known as the UEFA Champions League from start to finish.

The competition proper would begin with a pre- Christmas 16 team group stage, split into four groups of four with the top two clubs in each group progressing to the post- Christmas quarter finals. UEFA also decided to give byes to the title holders and champions of the top nations 1-7, all of whom started in the group stage. The remaining eight clubs came from the winners of an August qualifying round of 16 played by the champions of nations 8-23 or 9-24 using an early form of coefficient. For the first time, the champions of smaller nations 23 or 24 to 48 were shut out of the lucrative new tournament and instead entered the UEFA Cup. The Cup Winners' Cup remained unchanged.

UEFA probably initially believed they had squared the circle and addressed the concerns of all parties. The biggest clubs received byes to the group stage and were seeded, giving them the best possible chance of reaching the knock-out stage against the other big clubs. The satellite TV companies were willing to pay big money for rights. The format satisfied the millions of paying TV viewers, providing exciting knock-out games towards the end of each season, played by the champions of Europe's biggest nations, in theory at least.

However, by 1996, the biggest clubs planned a radical new European Super League, including an additional knock-out cup competition for its members. It was clear that the format change to and the clever marketing of the Champions League had created something of a commercial juggernaut to the detriment of the other two more traditional competitions, particularly the Cup Winners’ Cup. Rather than placate the burgeoning super clubs, UEFA had fed a crocodile and with effect from 1997/98, the Champions League was expanded to include the 8 runners-up from nations 1-8. This was a clear break from the old European Cup tradition.

By 99/00, the competition was further expanded to include the top four finishing teams from the biggest nations, starting with a 32-team group stage. The modern Champions League was born - a European super league by the backdoor. The old European Cup, founded by the sporting ideal to crown a European club champion- the Champion of Champions- was dead, killed off in favour of commercial necessity. The quality of the UEFA Cup and Cup Winners' Cup was also hallowed out and by 1999 the Cup Winners’ Cup was no more as a standalone tournament. The competition was combined with an expanded and secondary UEFA Cup.

But what if?

What if for example the 1996 plans collapsed as a result of similar fan outrage and protest, as seen in 2021, and the financiers of the new ESL pulled out?

What if UEFA faced the continent's biggest clubs down and buried the ESL for a few generations, at least, and retained the European club competition formats as they were in 1996/97, with some minor practical adjustments?

This file is for football fans like me who lived through the major changes of the late 1990s but who wished the commercialisation of the game stopped around 1996 or 1997.

Truth be told, I initially welcomed many of the changes in the 1990s. I thought they were good for the game. All seater stadia in England- I remember the dark days of the 1980s and early 1990s, the crap grounds, hooligans, risking bottles in the head, TV blackouts with no football to watch or an odd game on a Sunday afternoon. I also thought the new Champions League format was exciting. I was heavily influenced by the brilliant 1995 Ajax team (and Euro 96), who were the poster boys of the new era. After all, the CWC and the UEFA Cup remained on Tuesdays and Thursday nights for a more traditional offering. For me, the mid-1990s saw a blending of the new with the best of the old.

Incidentally, I don't remember anybody, managers, players, fans or commentators, referring to the European Cup as the Champions League until the early 2000s, when the tournament became one to include non-champions, as if to signify a definitive break between the old traditions and the new hyper commercialisation. It was simply "The European Cup" throughout the 1990s, THE Holy Grail.  European football in the 1990s had a mystique. Each of the three tournaments was unique, winning one was a major achievement. But the European Cup was the big one. The Champions League was just a UEFA marketing slogan. I think the expansion in 1999 to include two group stages changed the public perception and referring to the competition as the European Cup met with mocking derision. The pace of change in a just a few years was startling.

By the early 2000s, that mystique had really gone for me. I thought Man United's 1999 win (the first non-reigning domestic or title holder to lift the trophy) was an abomination, and not just because it was United! Even though my own club has also won two Champions Leagues, I still haven't buried the old European Cup competition in my head or reconciled to the new way of doing things. At the end of each season I still nerdishly look to see who would’ve entered the old competitions based on final league tables and who won the domestic cup competitions. I think the modern Liverpool, Man Utd and Chelsea have won the European Super Bowl equivalent, a bland, bloated corporate aberration and the forthcoming changes to a 36-team league turn the competition into a farce. Yes, winning the Champions League is a major achievement but those who do are not European Champions. Using the 2019 Champions League Final as an example, how can teams who finished 3rd and 4th the prior season and haven’t won a domestic top flight title in 29 or 58 years call themselves European Champions!?

This file for 23.4 only is an alternative, driven by the principle that the Champions League is for champions ONLY. This has knock-on effects for the other two main European competitions-

UEFA Champions League

Competition proper commences with a 16-team group stage. Top 2 in each group progresses to the quarter- finals. The title holders and domestic champions of the top 7 nations based on current UEFA coefficient enter at the group stage and are seeded. Unlike the Champions League of the mid 1990s, there are three prior qualifying rounds. Domestic champions of associations 8 to 15 are given byes to the playoff round, where they play the winners of a qualifying series played by the domestic champions of associations 16 to 47. The eight Playoff winners advance to the group stage, where they are unseeded. The Quarter and Semi Finals are two legged affairs which include the away goals rule tiebreaker and finishing with a single leg final at a neutral venue.

(If a title holder also wins its domestic top flight title in the same season, the domestic champion of association 48 takes the title holder’s place, with knock-on effects for the stage some teams enter. For example, the domestic champions of the top 8 associations enter at the group stage).

Losers of a qualifying round or Playoff do not drop down to the UEFA Cup.

 

UEFA Cup Winners’ Cup

Contested by the 48 domestic winners of the main national cup competition (or the runners-up of the cup if the winners do a domestic double and/or also win the Champions League in the same season). There is a preliminary round played by the cup winners of smaller nations based on in-game league reputation to reduce the competition to 32 teams, followed by four knock-out rounds and finishing with a single leg final at a neutral venue. All rounds include the away goals rule.

 

 

Title holders are given a wildcard entry to the following season’s Cup Winners’ Cup if they fail to win their domestic title. If the title holder also wins its domestic cup in the same season, the cup runners-up take that nation’s place.

UEFA Cup

Contested by 71 teams. There is a preliminary round played by teams from smaller nations based on in-game reputation to reduce the competition to 64 teams. There are then five knockout rounds finishing with a single leg final at a neutral venue. All rounds include the away goals rule.

England, Spain, Italy, Germany enter four teams. France, Holland, Portugal and Belgium enter three teams. Scotland, Austria and Russia enter two teams. All other nations enter their top flight runners- up (or 3rd place finishers should the runners-up enter the Cup Winners’ Cup).

Title holders are given a wildcard entry to the following season’s UEFA Cup if they fail to qualify for European competition by other means. Therefore, some nations may enter five teams, like Germany for season 2022-23.

The Carabao Cup winners are given a UEFA Cup place if they fail to qualify for European competition by other means, but England is limited to four entrants, apart from the title holder scenario described above. If the Carabao Cup winner qualifies for European competition by other means, its place reverts to the Premier League.

UEFA Super Cup

Single leg final at Stade Louis Monaco in August and contested by the winners of the previous season's Champions League and Cup Winners' Cup.

 

Credits

This file has been a very long time in the making for me. I wish to really thank the 1980s guru @ \'Appy \'Ammer for his help and advice. This file is a collaboration between him and me. Please use his 80s Dutch Cup file or the Dutch Cup won't run. His Icelandic fix also got me over the last hurdle for a 23.4 release. Cheers Appy!

@Carlito85 If you ever come back online, many thanks. I picked up loads from your files and they thought me how to use the Editor. I was a total novice before I got looking at them.

I've also picked up a hell of a lot from reading comments by @themodelcitizen His World Club Cup file plus @ \'Appy \'Ammer  FA Cup Semi- Final file really gives that mid to late 1990s/ 2000 feel to a save before the old Wembley was demolished, when the World Club Cup started with the 7 team format (and United pulled out of the FA Cup!), Cup semi-finals at neutral grounds other than Wembley, Cup replays etc.

@ZahnZee I wouldn't never have gotten the Cup Winners' Cup working as intended without examining (forensically!) your video.

Last, but not least, the formidable @Wolf_pd Again, I picked up loads of tips from your Iron Curtain files.

Happy to hear the Iron Curtain helped

[irish kopite]

2 hours ago, VP. said:

Brilliant idea, I miss the old European comps and have always believed the Champions League should only be for the champions of each nation. Will definitely give this a go at some point with the hope of creating our win in Copenhagen 1994, I won't mention the 95 final and Nayim though...

I remember those two finals well. Graham really had great expertise in those two legged European ties but the winner's curse struck in 1995. I remember it being a big talking point afterwards. Nayim's goal was one in a million.

[SItom]

Hi, how u managed the coefficients bug? Great work btw.

[irish kopite]

1 hour ago, SItom said:

Hi, how u managed the coefficients bug? Great work btw.

The coefficients are effectively disabled and fixed on the current real life UEFA coefficients for the CL. There is a form of in-game coefficient working for the CWC and UEC preliminary round team selection based on the dynamic reputation of the nation's top flight. 

I think this is what you mean by coefficient?

[Daniel Evensen]

Great work!  And I'm happy to see the Iron Curtain legacy live on.

[SItom]

Well I tried to create a Royal League, but since last FM the competing countries starting with 0 points in five year ranking, and for sweden there are chosen weird underclass teams...

[LazgoNNO2000]

so this is an alternate timeline when UEFA was never greedy

[irish kopite]

1 hour ago, LazgoNNO2000 said:

so this is an alternate timeline when UEFA was never greedy

Yes. That was my intention. 

It assumes the European Cup never expanded to include non- champions with the knock-on effect that the other two club competitions remained. CWC as a pure knockout for domestic cup winners, UEC as a pure knockout for league runners-up or best of the rest competition. 

There are some minor improvements to the mid 1990s tournaments-

All being equal, all of the domestic champions of the UEFA member nations as of 1997 entered the Champions League and a qualifying series has been added.

There are no drop downs to the UEC from the CL. The final of the UEC is played over a single match instead of two legs. This is what actually happened when the European Cup was expanded in the late 1990s and the CWC was discontinued.

The Super Cup is played over a single match at Stade Louis Monaco instead of over 2 legs. Again, this is what happened in the late 90s and well into the 00s. However the Super Cup remains as a game between the winners of the CL and CWC.

[LazgoNNO2000]

46 minutes ago, irish kopite said:

Yes. That was my intention. 

It assumes the European Cup never expanded to include non- champions with the knock-on effect that the other two club competitions remained. CWC as a pure knockout for domestic cup winners, UEC as a pure knockout for league runners-up or best of the rest competition. 

There are some minor improvements to the mid 1990s tournaments-

All being equal, all of the domestic champions of the UEFA member nations as of 1997 entered the Champions League and a qualifying series has been added.

There are no drop downs to the UEC from the CL. The final of the UEC is played over a single match instead of two legs. This is what actually happened when the European Cup was expanded in the late 1990s and the CWC was discontinued.

The Super Cup is played over a single match at Stade Louis Monaco instead of over 2 legs. Again, this is what happened in the late 90s and well into the 00s. However the Super Cup remains as a game between the winners of the CL and CWC.

so do PSG,Man City and Chelsea exist and do they have some money

[irish kopite]

3 hours ago, LazgoNNO2000 said:

so do PSG,Man City and Chelsea exist and do they have some money

Yes. The file merely reverts the European club competitions to their mid 90s formats with some minor adjustments.

It is not an Iron Curtain type file which restores the entire footballing world as it existed in 1997.

[LazgoNNO2000]

4 hours ago, irish kopite said:

Yes. The file merely reverts the European club competitions to their mid 90s formats with some minor adjustments.

It is not an Iron Curtain type file which restores the entire footballing world as it existed in 1997.

and that why i want to rewrite european competitons format in FM editor but it too very hard

[MJB1986]

Great job! Is it possible to alter the co-efficients for example making it England, Scotland, Wales and Spain as the top 4 teams? Is it also possible change the Welsh cup winners to qualifying for the cup winners cup and the teams in Scotland and Wales that win the league cup, qualify for the UEFA Cup?

[irish kopite]

10 hours ago, LazgoNNO2000 said:

and that why i want to rewrite european competitons format in FM editor but it too very hard

It is too hard and would need a lot of time. Time that I absolutely don't have.

@Wolf_pd did a great job recreating the late 1980s for FM20.

Edited April 17, 2023 by irish kopite
Link added

[irish kopite]

7 hours ago, MJB1986 said:

Great job! Is it possible to alter the co-efficients for example making it England, Scotland, Wales and Spain as the top 4 teams? Is it also possible change the Welsh cup winners to qualifying for the cup winners cup and the teams in Scotland and Wales that win the league cup, qualify for the UEFA Cup?

Yes it's possible.

You need to go to the team pool in qualified teams and adjust there. Move those 4 nations up to the top.

I think the Welsh Cup winners do qualify for the Cup Winners Cup Preliminary Round? I'm away from my PC at the moment.

You could copy the England sub Team Pool in the UEFA Cup qualifying teams section for Scotland and Wales. But you'd need to take the same amount of places you add for those nations off another nation or nations. The easiest way would be to keep the number of teams entering the competition the same.

[MJB1986]

1 hour ago, irish kopite said:

Yes it's possible.

You need to go to the team pool in qualified teams and adjust there. Move those 4 nations up to the top.

I think the Welsh Cup winners do qualify for the Cup Winners Cup Preliminary Round? I'm away from my PC at the moment.

You could copy the England sub Team Pool in the UEFA Cup qualifying teams section for Scotland and Wales. But you'd need to take the same amount of places you add for those nations off another nation or nations. The easiest way would be to keep the number of teams entering the competition the same.

Thanks for the advice mate! :-)

[paracoolo]

i think there's an issue with awards.. Im not so sure if its the same for everyone but for me there is issues:

[irish kopite]

The file has been updated for 23.4.0. Please see opening post for details.

[oche balboa]

Brilliant I'm going to download this and have a play with it 

[Moore]

Probably a very stupid question, but: does it solely work with 23.3 or can it be played with previous updates? (I wanted to try it out with the 1998/99 season db, which runs with 23.0.0 only.

Edited August 10, 2023 by Moore

[irish kopite]

The file works with the latest database. It originally was created for 23.0. I don't know how to roll a file back to 23.0, although I'd be confident there is a way to do that.

I was under the impression that additional editor files won't work with the retro databases but I may be wrong.

 

[Curtains-2720]

Awesome mod mate @irish kopite thanks a lot

[Pablotapiav]

Brilliant work! please repeat it on FM24.

[Pablotapiav]

@irish kopite Could you give me some help? I want to do the same with south america competitions.

Before 99 only two teams per country were qualyfied to Libertadores (winner and runner up), so this could follow what this patch is inspired.

 

[irish kopite]

19 hours ago, Pablotapiav said:

@irish kopite Could you give me some help? I want to do the same with south america competitions.

Before 99 only two teams per country were qualyfied to Libertadores (winner and runner up), so this could follow what this patch is inspired.

 

Unfortunately, I'm very unfamiliar with non-UEFA club tournaments.

The best advice I can offer is to study my file and adapt to what you want through A LOT of trial and error. That's how I learned from a base of having absolutely zero editor experience. It took me a long time though and a lot of effort across multiple versions from FM20 to FM23 before I was in any way confident of releasing this file.

Study the process from the very beginning at qualified teams to how I built the various stages and/or rounds in both a group stage tournament (CL) and a pure knockout tournament (UEC and CWC).

[LazgoNNO2000]

hey dude i was thinking but frozen in time file is not working

2023-2024 season was start and it never start qualfying rounds

[irish kopite]

19 hours ago, LazgoNNO2000 said:

hey dude i was thinking but frozen in time file is not working

2023-2024 season was start and it never start qualfying rounds

Hi. Did you start your save in the 2023/24 season using another editor file?

I don't think my file will work with those files or retro databases. I haven't had time to do testing with these files.

[irish kopite]

I plan to test my file when the FM24 editor is ready and I will release for FM24 as soon as it verifies.

I won't be doing any further editor work until FM24.

[LazgoNNO2000]

2 hours ago, irish kopite said:

I plan to test my file when the FM24 editor is ready and I will release for FM24 as soon as it verifies.

I won't be doing any further editor work until FM24.

wow cool so will you added intertoto cup in FM 24

[irish kopite]

2 hours ago, LazgoNNO2000 said:

wow cool so will you added intertoto cup in FM 24

I don't have any plans to add the Intertoto Cup.

[LazgoNNO2000]

10 hours ago, irish kopite said:

I don't have any plans to add the Intertoto Cup.

oh it because it going to bug the game

[LazgoNNO2000]

10 hours ago, irish kopite said:

I don't have any plans to add the Intertoto Cup.

well why not doing an file when ECA Breaked away from UEFA And create EFC

[irish kopite]

5 hours ago, LazgoNNO2000 said:

oh it because it going to bug the game

I've no interest in creating the Intertoto Cup.

[LazgoNNO2000]

39 minutes ago, irish kopite said:

I've no interest in creating the Intertoto Cup.

because it too hard and anyways i was wonder are you going to do editing in FM Editor is when Nations and ECA Breakway from UEFA And FIFA in FM 2024

[irish kopite]

On 07/10/2023 at 15:19, LazgoNNO2000 said:

because it too hard and anyways i was wonder are you going to do editing in FM Editor is when Nations and ECA Breakway from UEFA And FIFA in FM 2024

No. I don't have any desire to create any European club competitions after season 96-97.

[Wolf_pd]

On 07/10/2023 at 16:19, LazgoNNO2000 said:

because it too hard and anyways i was wonder are you going to do editing in FM Editor is when Nations and ECA Breakway from UEFA And FIFA in FM 2024

This is a fantasy scenario right?

[LazgoNNO2000]

6 hours ago, Wolf_pd said:

This is a fantasy scenario right?

yeah

[Wolf_pd]

53 minutes ago, LazgoNNO2000 said:

yeah

Considering this thread is for the historical scenario, this is not the place to ask for it.

[LazgoNNO2000]

39 minutes ago, Wolf_pd said:

Considering this thread is for the historical scenario, this is not the place to ask for it.

oh okay

[Curtains-2720]

Hey mate @irish kopite love this mod, any plans for FM24 release?

[irish kopite]

Hoping to release in the next few days. Some minor changes I want to do when I get some spare time. Thanks for the interest!

[Curtains-2720]

Il y a 1 heure, irish kopite a dit :

Hoping to release in the next few days. Some minor changes I want to do when I get some spare time. Thanks for the interest!

Excellent news mate. Could you give more details about those minor changes? I'm curious ^^

[irish kopite]

I'm going to try a 94/95 replication, which was the first season the European Cup/ Champions League proper commenced with a group stage. In this edition of my file, there will be dropdowns to the UEFA Cup for those who don't make the group stage. I just have to make the UEFA Cup work.

In reality what actually happened was the champions of nations 24-48 were locked out of the CL altogether and played in the UEFA Cup. I hated this, being from one of those minor European nations, so I'll take the liberty of amending the CL in the earlier rounds.

UEFA Cup and Super Cup finals will also revert to two legged affairs.

I've fond memories of this season and I'm a huge admirer of that brilliant Ajax CL winning team. In my view, they were the last old school European champion.

[Wolf_pd]

14 minutes ago, irish kopite said:

I'm going to try a 94/95 replication, which was the first season the European Cup/ Champions League proper commenced with a group stage. In this edition of my file, there will be dropdowns to the UEFA Cup for those who don't make the group stage. I just have to make the UEFA Cup work.

In reality what actually happened was the champions of nations 24-48 were locked out of the CL altogether and played in the UEFA Cup. I hated this, being from one of those minor European nations, so I'll take the liberty of amending the CL in the earlier rounds.

UEFA Cup and Super Cup finals will also revert to two legged affairs.

I've fond memories of this season and I'm a huge admirer of that brilliant Ajax CL winning team. In my view, they were the last old school European champion.

Oh yes, that set-up was both horrible and ideal. Ideal, because it reminded me of the smaller simpler competition, but horrible because it left all those nations out. Added negative bonus is that you would have to build the competition in such a way that coefficients would be working, otherwise you wouldn't have teams move between the European Cup and UEFA Cup. I have honestly no idea how that could be done properly. So, good choice to do it diferent.

[irish kopite]

Thanks. Yes I think it's the most viable workaround.

I also feel very conflicted about football in the mid 90s. On one hand, I've fond memories of that era. The Premier League was well underway. It was the last few seasons of the champions only European Cup before the competition morphed into the Champions League. The format felt fresh and provided some big clashes in the March to May period. Looking back from nearly 30 years, a big thing for me strangely, as opposed to say the late 80s, was that top level football felt closer as it was televised live. It wasn't just highlights late at night. 

However it was television that killed it. Locking out the smaller nations from the European Cup being a harbinger of what was just around the corner.

Edited November 6, 2023 by irish kopite

[Curtains-2720]

Sounds great, looking forward to it

[Curtains-2720]

How is it going along mate? Take tour Time ofc, just excited about this mod and Hope to get insights into the process

[irish kopite]

It hasn't been going well. The UEFA Cup changes I need to make to last year's file have caused me a headache. I'll need a rethink over the weekend to see if I can make the competition work as I intended.