How To Play Cautious and Low Block Football

[Jack722]

1.  Introduction

I think 'real' defensive football is both under-represented in football manager, as well as often misrepresented. Not only is it a common occurence for FM players to say that low blocks are useless, what's just as bad is popular users and brands using attacking mentalities, higher pressing and passing the systems off as defensive low blocks in order to stand out more.

As a regular user on these forums, I am yet to see a 'true' low block / cautious tactic that is even somewhat successful. I hope in this thread I can change that.

2.  Defensive Football

I think what has the biggest influence on whether a tactic is 'defensive' or not, is the mentality. Most users on this forum describe mentality as a risk indicator. I think this is a decent way of thinking about it, but I prefer to imagine in terms of intent, and put myself in the shoes of a real life player, instead of a virtual manager. Then, I imagine how I would naturally expect to play when we're heavy favourites (Attacking) or heavy underdogs (Defensive). 

Below is how the same scenario would look on an attacking and then a defensive mentality.

Attacking

 

Defensive

When we want to attack, we can expect the higher risk decisions. A winger will more likely cross a ball when out wide, fullbacks will sprint forward to overlap, and deeper midfield players / opposite wingers will move forward to overload the box. This is all at the expense of what we can see in the defensive mentality picture. Here the priority is security at the back in case of a counter attack, and safe options for the ball carrier to retain possession. The on-ball winger in this scenario will see that there are only two attackers in the box, and will most likely play the safe option and pass back to his fullback.

Similar things could be said for different situations. When in possession of the ball in their own final third, an attacking team will try and play more line breaking passes to move up the pitch, while focusing on retaining the ball when under pressure. A defensive team will more likely clear the ball when under pressure, and retain possession when not.

Lastly imagine being a striker when your team is in defence against a much stronger team, as opposed to being against a much weaker team. Against the stronger team, you're going to track back more and help out your defenders. Whereas against the weaker team, you'll be happier to stay further up field. This way you can save your energy for the attacking phase and be in a good position for a counter attack, while having faith that your team mates can handle the pressure defensively, and be able to find you when they finally win the ball.

3. The Low Block

The standard feature of almost any low block is the compactness. This strategy should aim to be as compact as possible, mostly converging on the area in front of your own penalty box. Any higher, and you'll be vulnerable to a ball over the top, any lower, and any player recieving the ball will be within good shooting distance. A good example can be seen below:

The three key features are that: 

• The team holds their shape instead of chasing the ball carrier
• Space is left unmarked out wide in order to flood the middle more
• Pressure only starts well inside their own defensive half.

Another interesting point is the positioning of the strikers. They aren't positioned high up the pitch anticipating a turnover, they are deep in order to help with the defence. This means that counter attacks are actually more difficult in this structure than commonly believed. Counter attacking is much easier with a mid block defence, where you try to win the ball more in the centre. What's more likely to happen when this team wins the ball back is for the forwards to make an attempt to hold up the ball in order to help the whole team move forward and gain territory. An ambitious counter attacking ball into space will be difficult for both the giver and the reciever. A defender who wins the ball back will be under immeditate pressure from a counter press (likely in their own half) meaning they'll struggle to get their head up to see the space. The opposition defenders also have a huge headstart on any attacker looking to run in behind, as well as having just come off a period of rest.

4. Realistic Expectations, Match Engine Limitations

You cannot play defensive football for 90 minutes / match , 38 games / season, and expect to be successful as any team that is not fighting a relegation battle. In defensive football you will rely too much on individual moments of brilliance, opposition mistakes and overcommmitments for goals, especially when a win is worth three points. Watch the full match of any team or manager that has a reputation for defensive football or parking the bus. You will find that they do still get forward and pressure well into the opposition half fairly reguarly. The difference is that they pick their moments. Defensive football is useful for:

• Playing one off games as the underdog. 
• Match plans
  • Switching to a defensive tactic to hold on to a lead
  • Using defensive football until the ~75th minute to keep a low scoreline before attacking late on for a 'smash and grab' victory or late draw

With an attacking tactic, you can get away with simulating a whole season using the one tactic. This way you'll have a 'we'll score more than you' strategy. That will not work with defensive football, if the opposition takes the lead, they can recognise that you're not pushing forward - and can easily see out their lead playing defensive football themselves. 

I also believe that, while defensive football is possible, attacking football in FM is far too effective. It's almost too easy to plug your best players into the gegenpress preset and massively overachieve. This means that, I wouldn't try the strategy in this thread if you only care about simming results. This method for me is satisfying because I can get decent and realistic results by playing a realistic way. I have no interest in winning the league with Burnley by playing gegenpress from day 1.

5. FM Analysis

In FM, I have taken West Ham (predicted to finish 9th) to 5th place, reguarly using my low block strategy. While doing this, we have also managed ultra low possession numbers, a high number of blocks and clearances, and a 'catenaccio' label from the media

 

 

 

 

6. Tactic

Above is my most defensive of three strategies. Using my points made in Section 4, we use this strategy against all of the 'big six' premier league sides, as well as when we want to hold on to a lead. 

We have translated the points made in the real life low block in Section 3, into FM:

• Lower defensive line
  • Positioning our defensive line a little bit outside our own box
• Trigger press less often
  • Holding our shape to prevent gaps opening up
• Much lower line of engagement
  • Only pressuring the opponent once in our own half
  • Keeping our lines as close together as possible for vertical compactness
• Force opposition outside
  • Leaving the outside unmarked in order to maintain lateral compactness
• 4411DM formation
  • Mainting vertical compactness (more compact than a 4231 / 433 which leaves gaps in front of the fullbacks)

 

To compliment our defensive mentality, we have also selected lots of defensive duty players. FM in the past used to recommend that you pick a certain number of attack duties per mentality (0-1 for VD / D / C, 2 for B, 3 for P, 4 for A, 5 for VA). And although it's only a rough guide, I think it's a good starting point that goes hand in hand with what each mentality is trying to do. For example, in defensive, we're mostly only ever looking to play the sideways pass / safe option. for this reason, we have only selected one attack duty, with 6 defend duties. This way we have one player spending lots of time forward to chase clearances and make runs in behind, while everyone else provides safe passing options and defensive security. If we're not going to cross the ball or get numbers into the box, there is no need to push our fullbacks forward, or have midfielders breaking forward into the box

Lastly, we have 0 in possession instructions. This is because, in possession, I don't actually have much of a plan for us. In possession, any attacking will be done through individual brilliance, or an opposition mistake. The important thing is that we hace 'counter' ticked in the transition phase. In FM, counter attacks are triggered automatically and are a completely different phase to in possession. It's tempting to want to add 'more direct passing / higher tempo / pass into space' but this actually goes against what we're trying to do, which is stay cautious in possession and wait for a counter opportunity. The mentioned instructions will actually turn us into a higher risk, long ball time, where we will be constantly losing the ball, instead of holding on to it and playing the safe pass.

Spoiler

 

Manchester United (A)

Away at Old Trafford we played our defensive low block for the full 90. Unfortunately we lost 1-0 due to a 85th minute winner. But looking at the stats, you can easily see how on another day we could've stolen a draw. Despite dominating the ball and having 20 shots, We managed to restrict them to no clear clut chances (CCC's) while having only two half chances, the same as us.

 

Brighton (A)

At Brighton, since it was a more even game, we used different strategies as part of a gameplan. Starting off with a positive midblock 4231DM, we played slightly on the front foot until we go one goal up in the 18th minute. We then switch to a counter attacking 4411DM midblock until halftime, before switching to the same low block defensive tactic seen against Manchester United until the end.

#

  As the general standard in most of our games this season. We manage to win by one goal whilst having fewer possession and fewer shots. But most importantly, we create more chances.

 

Edited August 12, 2022 by Jack722

[CARRERA]

I think there is a significant difference between playing with a low block and playing defensive football.

Playing with a low block can still have the intention to send (many) players forward to score after winning possession. Or to build up slowly with also players moving forward. And eventhough im not an expert for spanish football, i think thats actually what Atletico is doing most of the time.

I've went to youtube and looked up all laliga goals from last season for atletico and i noticed, that there are quite often 6-8 players around the box / in the final third whenever they score. And like 4 players inside the box.

Playing defensive football on the other hand (at least from my point of view) has the intention to primarily defend and maybe take the game into a later stage or maybe take away 1 point from a big team or luckily score some random goal from whatever. And thats also why it makes completely sense to increase the number of defend duties if your really wanna shut your goal down.

 

Edited April 4, 2022 by CARRERA

[Robson 07]

Good post Jack and subject to tackle.  Too many things to mention that I agree with.  Just a couple of points I'd query (not challenge) is that a lower DL on a defensive mentality seems to invite long shots and in FM land one of those has a tendency to fly in late on and stun you.  Also I get the principle you outline about lateral compactness, but again in FM land, I find that if it isn't standard then wide players aren't engaged properly and a pinpoint accurate cross sooner or later ends up on someone's bonce.  You could make a case for those type of things being match engine flaws though both seem to me to have been around for many versions.

Anyway I hope you get some great feedback from this thread.

[Jack722]

3 hours ago, CARRERA said:

I think there is a significant difference between playing with a low block and playing defensive football.

Yeah I think defensive football can even be played with a high press. I've seen Manchester City do this a number of times. When they win the ball back, they just pass it around.. No one really makes any forward runs, and players stay back to provide defensive security and safe pass options. It can really demoralise any opposition, who end up exhausting themselves chasing shadows since they really get forced to come out of their defensive shape.

3 hours ago, CARRERA said:

Playing with a low block can still have the intention to send (many) players forward to score after winning possession. Or to build up slowly with also players moving forward. And eventhough im not an expert for spanish football, i think thats actually what Atletico is doing most of the time.

I've went to youtube and looked up all laliga goals from last season for atletico and i noticed, that there are quite often 6-8 players around the box / in the final third whenever they score. And like 4 players inside the box.

Since out of possession and in possession are seperate, this is of course completely viable, but i'd question why you'd want this. I can't think of any times off the top of my head when a team has used a 'pure' low block while still actively trying to push forward when on the ball in search of a goal. Even playing on the counter with this tactic is difficult because your players are often pushed so far back that they have multiple players to beat as well as 3/4 of a football pitch to run before being able to shoot, especially with tactical fouls nowadays. 

IMO when I see Atletico play, they more often use a mid block or a mid to low block instead of a pure low block, unless they're looking to see out a game, when they might go to a low block.

I see the left image as a low block (Much lower loe, lower dline,less pressing) the middle image as a mid/low block (lower loe, less pressing) and the right image as a mid block (blank instructions)

 

[Jack722]

37 minutes ago, Robson 07 said:

Good post Jack and subject to tackle.  Too many things to mention that I agree with.  Just a couple of points I'd query (not challenge) is that a lower DL on a defensive mentality seems to invite long shots and in FM land one of those has a tendency to fly in late on and stun you.  Also I get the principle you outline about lateral compactness, but again in FM land, I find that if it isn't standard then wide players aren't engaged properly and a pinpoint accurate cross sooner or later ends up on someone's bonce.  You could make a case for those type of things being match engine flaws though both seem to me to have been around for many versions.

Anyway I hope you get some great feedback from this thread.

Understand your points. The far post crosses can be a killer at times, but the long shots aren't really a problem. I remember back in FM20(?) Every long shot was basically a cannon into the top corner, but it feels more balanced now in this engine.

[coach vahid]

First of all great thread. Open post well writing. 

I have some questions :

Do you use these roles for something or is it just because your players fit in these roles. Do you use some players instructions and oppositions instructions to enhance your theory?

You said that the 433 leave too much gap but what about the classic 442?

And if you take a goal first, do you adapt your strategy but in the opposite way you write about it?

Thanks for your work. 

[Jack722]

2 hours ago, coach vahid said:

Do you use these roles for something or is it just because your players fit in these roles. Do you use some players instructions and oppositions instructions to enhance your theory?

There's not particular reason why I use these roles. What's more Important is the duties. For example in the defensive tactic, I don't need overlapping fullbacks, whereas in the positive tactic I want Cresswell to get to the byline and pump in crosses. And again there's no particular reason for it, just that he's got good dribbling and crossing and sending a fullback forward can be an easy way to create overloads and break down defences when we want to play on the front foot. 

My CAM easily could've been an AP, or my striker is sometimes a TMa depending on who plays there. Lots of other roles could've been different as well.

My choice between the reason I had my left side as WB and right as FB is purely because Cresswell has better crossing and dribbling. The WB stays wider and actively tries to cross and dribble more than the FB, who tends to play more simple passes and is only really looking to cross when in open space.

And no extra instructions.

2 hours ago, coach vahid said:

You said that the 433 leave too much gap but what about the classic 442?

Irl lots of teams switch to a 442 when defending deep and compact, even if their on ball system is completely different. It's one of the more solid shapes so is easily doable. Imo the 442, 532 and 541 are probably the best formations to use for this style. My rule of thumb is to avoid formations with > 2 players in the AM / ST strata. 

At the beginning of the save, I tried the same instructions as the defensive tactic but used a 4231DM, and while we scored a decent amount of goals, we conceded a tonne, which went completely against my philosophy. Against lesser teams we'd win 3-2 while Against the big boys we'd get thrashed (lost 6-0 to liverpool). After switching the cautious and defensive tactics to the 4411, we've been grinding out 1-0 wins, and keeping it tight against the top teams. Last two games in a row we lost 2-1 away to Chelsea then 2-1 away to PSG. Despite the losses I was very happy with the performances, we can't expect to be getting anything from these types of games anyway.

2 hours ago, coach vahid said:

nd if you take a goal first, do you adapt your strategy but in the opposite way you write about it?

I regularly switch between the three tactics previously mentioned, the positive , cautious and defensive. In home games against the bottom half, I regularly start with the positive tactic before switching to more defensive after scoring first.

[nugatti]

Hi, a great read this 

Just a tip for you - this thread you may not have read 

[coach vahid]

Hi, 

Do you still play this save? 

Any update? 

I try your settings but It was not so satisfied... Surely it's my team... But if you have any tips, i'll take it. 

[Jack722]

13 hours ago, coach vahid said:

Hi, 

Do you still play this save? 

Any update? 

I try your settings but It was not so satisfied... Surely it's my team... But if you have any tips, i'll take it. 

Don't think i've played too many more games than shown in the screenshot. 

I don't like providing specific tactical advice in these forums and have avoided it for a long time, since I believe tactics are secondary to recruitment, training and man management. It's even more difficult since this isn't really a single tactic, and more a selection of 'match plans'. 

Although feel free to post what you've been trying and your results. Maybe myself or someone else can take a look.

[DarJ]

On 04/04/2022 at 22:16, Jack722 said:

I can't think of any times off the top of my head when a team has used a 'pure' low block while still actively trying to push forward when on the ball in search of a goal.

I think that is what Mourinho did at inter especially against big teams. There an excellent video on coaches voice YouTube page where he explained one of his wins in the champions league against Barcelona

[Rashidi]

I don't think there is enough coverage on defensive tactics which play differently and I noticed one of your settings was press less, which is something I have encouraged others to do whenever they want to play a disciplined block. When players press less it doesnt meant they don't press, it just means that these players hold their position and press when it is necessary. So if one were playing a disciplined low block that could be something some coaches might want to see happen. Your roles and duties are important. When I set up like that I usually have  a pair of AFs ready to bolt and attack the defensive line. In a lot of situations we usually get a 2v2 from deeper positions.

[coach vahid]

Thanks for the tips. 

[Gianni Brera]

Finally someone who actually goes into -Defensive- football, without resorting to an attacking mentality + a lowered LOE. Thank you!

I was already beginning to wonder if anyone else did that, with so many videos on Youtube warning FM players to "never ever go below Cautious mentality" or "never lower the defensive line".

Defensive mentality with lots of Defend duties and less pressing is a very powerful combination to stifle games and frustrate opponents. It's considered anti-football for a reason: dont expect any nice, smooth counter-attacking plays from such a system.

The kind of lethal effectiveness demonstrated by Mourinho's Inter Milan or Simeone's Atletico did not occur in Defensive-tier mentalities, those were aggressive teams, using a perfect mixture of convicted criminals, mercenaries and uniquely talented artists. Only in those big games that everyone remembers, yes, they would resort to anti-football to defend a spectacular result.

Thank you for setting that straight.

Defensive football in FM is really as straightforward as it is. And Ive even used it in games from the kick-off where I was expected to win. It just takes patience to wait and trust that your players will score. If the clock hits the 75th minute and its still 0-0, I begin to make adjustments, such as additional creative freedom for the forwards, or tell a full-back to go forward. In many cases, I noticed that can be enough to bring that late goal.

[coach vahid]

Can you share your set up? 

I, personally use a 442 DM with a Wm on left, a Winger on right and two advanced forward... With the same instructions. When I play on positive, it's pretty cool, but when I change on cautious or defend, I always take the goal. Obviously, it was not the objective.

[Tsuru]

@Jack722a valid question here: we know that it is very hard to win trophies based on a defensive strategy. And after being 5th on the league with West Ham, the team is going to Europe next season, the reputation will probably increase and you will not be predicted for 9th place again, I suppose. So next season you would probably be the favourite team in more matches - so as this happen I guess you would start more matches with the attacking tactic and would use less the defensive one as the starting strategy as team goes up on European/English pyramid? Are you considering this reputation/expectations increase as part of your overall strategy?

Thank you for your effort on this very interesting tactical guide.

[DarJ]

3 hours ago, Tsuru said:

we know that it is very hard to win trophies based on a defensive strategy.

I used to think like that too but since I've switched to a primarily defensive tactic in my save even if I'm the favourite to win the league, I still have no problem winning games. So I think it could still work long term

[Jack722]

On 21/04/2022 at 15:32, Tsuru said:

@Jack722a valid question here: we know that it is very hard to win trophies based on a defensive strategy. And after being 5th on the league with West Ham, the team is going to Europe next season, the reputation will probably increase and you will not be predicted for 9th place again, I suppose. So next season you would probably be the favourite team in more matches - so as this happen I guess you would start more matches with the attacking tactic and would use less the defensive one as the starting strategy as team goes up on European/English pyramid? Are you considering this reputation/expectations increase as part of your overall strategy?

Thank you for your effort on this very interesting tactical guide.

Exactly this. 

The FM online community seems to forget far too often that teams in the real world adjust their tactics all the time. They might not do big formation changes, but all the time you'll see adjustments to tempo, pressing and creative freedom. In an even game, a lot of the time you'll see the winning team make slight adjustments. You'll see fullbacks and central midfielders staying back and holding their position more, and you'll less likely see them pressing right up to the keeper. Whereas the losing team, especially late on, will throw everything at the opposition. Forwards won't really track back so much and midfielders will be making late runs in the box while fullbacks are staying high and wide looking to pump in crosses.

This is partly why I find it useless most of the time when users post their tactics asking for help. Because they way I play, I'd be making slight adjustments all the time based on whether I think I should be able to win, wheather we're being outplayed, whether we're looking tired etc.. And theyre never complex adjustments related to exploiting weaknesses or laying a 'trap' or whatever, It's just a matter or how attacking or defensive I want to be. Am I willing to send my fullback forward to 'unlock' a defense? Or do I think it's too risky and the other team are good enough to exploit this on the counter? Ultimately this won't matter if we're losing with 5 minutes to go, because in these situations we can't afford not to take the risk.

Edited July 27, 2022 by Jack722

[Aoyao]

We need to translate football theory into FM language。

14 小时前, Jack722说:

Exactly this. 

The FM online community seems to forget far too often that teams in the real world adjust their tactics all the time. They might not do big formation changes, but all the time you'll see adjustments to tempo, pressing and creative freedom. In an even game, a lot of the time you'll see the winning team make slight adjustments. You'll see fullbacks and central midfielders staying back and holding their position more, and you'll less likely see them pressing right up to the keeper. Whereas the losing team, especially late on, will throw everything at the opposition. Forwards won't really track back so much and midfielders will be making late runs in the box while fullbacks are staying high and wide looking to pump in crosses.

This is partly why I find it useless most of the time when users post their tactics asking for help. Because they way I play, I'd be making slight adjustments all the time based on whether I think I should be able to win, wheather we're being outplayed, whether we're looking tired etc.. And theyre never complex adjustments related to exploiting weaknesses or laying a 'trap' or whatever, It's just a matter or how attacking or defensive I want to be. Am I willing to send my fullback forward to 'unluck' a defense? Or do I think it's too risky and the other team are good enough to exploit this on the counter? Ultimately this won't matter if we're losing with 5 minutes to go, because in these situations we can't afford to take the risk.

 

[Jack722]

On 20/04/2022 at 10:18, coach vahid said:

Can you share your set up? 

I, personally use a 442 DM with a Wm on left, a Winger on right and two advanced forward... With the same instructions. When I play on positive, it's pretty cool, but when I change on cautious or defend, I always take the goal. Obviously, it was not the objective.

I'm not surprised. A good rule of thumb is to use a maximum of one attack duty when using Cautious or below.

If you read the cautious description, you're not even really trying to attack, only push players forward when you have an opportunity to counter. You don't need two attacking focal points for this. What's more important is that you have players tracking back and offering safe passing options when in possession. When a counter is triggered, almost everyone bolts forward anyway regardless of duty.

The same way you wouldn't use 3 centrebacks + an anchor man when you're on very attacking looking for a last minute goal, don't use a poacher if your looking to defend for 95% of the match. You're not going to be able to provide him with any chances and he won't end up doing much. An AF is slightly better than a poacher, but two is unecessary imo for this style.

Edited May 7, 2022 by Jack722

[Jack722]

End of Season Update:

We manage a very respectful 6th place finish, while everything has largely stayed the same. The gameplan, tactics and overall stats remain unchanged:

Being one of the teams with the most blocks and clearances shows that we're set up well defensively, with lots of bodies back to get in the way of shots, while also taking the low risk approach of clearing the ball instead of trying to play out. A busy / impenetrable defence shows that we're happy to allow lots of low risk shots that can easily be saved or blocked. Finally, fewer and innacurate passes demonstrates how we don't really care about keeping possession.

The game that showed what we're all about the most was a home victory against Manchester United:

Since I would've been happy with a draw in this game, we played the full 90 with a cautious low block. It's really satisfying to see how we restricted them to 0 chances and less than a 25% shot on target ratio, despite having conceded 17 shots. You can see how deep we were using average positions:

 

A nice video of the low block in action can be seen below. The forward and CAM work hard together to prevent vertical progression through the middle, then our two defensive DM's completely shut out their most creative player (B. fernandes, #18). Man United then have to rely on the flanks and high risk switches of play to progress forward, and the result is a low quality cross where our two CB's easily outnumber the forward.

Spoiler

Tactic for above game:

 

Like I've tried to mention before, we don't and likely couldn't play defensive football for the full 90 every game. If I think it's sensible to set up to dominate possession and attack, I'll do it. For example, at home to 16th placed Norwich, I played a simple, fairly high pressing, positive 4231:

The result was a routine 2-0 victory... If we're good enough, we may aswell let our creative players off the leash a little bit.

 

[Jack722]

Also, someone's not appreciative of my hard work 

[Tsuru]

You see @Jack722, I have been facing some troubles to develop a tactic and play it exact the same way on FM 21 against every team. Maybe I am more suited to an adaptative style like yours, however I have never tried it.

I developed here a system based on our ideas and I will start testing it.

You see, I added a more complex layer here as I moved the DMs up on the counter tactic, and also the Positive one is a two CM 4231. I also left the more attacking tactic just on Positive, this way I can add instructions to our attacking strategy if it is really necessary.

I will let you know how this is working/developing.
 

Edited June 1, 2022 by Tsuru

[Jack722]

On 01/06/2022 at 13:45, Tsuru said:

You see @Jack722, I have been facing some troubles to develop a tactic and play it exact the same way on FM 21 against every team. Maybe I am more suited to an adaptative style like yours, however I have never tried it.

I developed here a system based on our ideas and I will start testing it.

You see, I added a more complex layer here as I moved the DMs up on the counter tactic, and also the Positive one is a two CM 4231. I also left the more attacking tactic just on Positive, this way I can add instructions to our attacking strategy if it is really necessary.

I will let you know how this is working/developing.
 

honestly this looks pretty good to me. Only thing I would change is the AF to a TM(s), DLF(s) or PF(s) on the defensive tactic. You don't really need a forward that doesn't track back to 'spearhead' your attack when youre barely attacking. Also, support duties still make runs in behind if a clear opportunity is there, such as large open space or an opposition mistake. Maybe I would stick to only using DMs or only using CMs across all three tactics, so that it is easier for the players to learn one position instead of two. Also I haven't tried using 'much' lower loe/dline very much. I reguarly use this to see out games where I'm really clinging on to moderate success, but I dont know how viable it is to use for a whole game, or even a considerable number of minutes within a game. And normally I set up my roles to be even more defensive when using 'much' lower, like play a 541 with a PF(d) so that we're ultra compact. Although it does eliminate any sort of attacking threat from your team.

How did it go?

[Jack722]

I've left the West Ham save for now, and tried bringing some defensive football to a stronger team with larger ambitions. Villarreal.

The year is 2025, and although we are fresh from winning the league last season, Villarreal is still some way of the giants of Real Madrid and Barcelona. We're more or less on the same level as Ateltico Madrid. With our squad strength, unlike West Ham, we should be able to play positively against pretty much every team in the league. Apart from Madrid, Barca and away to Atleti.

Fast forward to mid way through the season, and our defensive tactics have already done their job for us. We're one point behind Real madrid, in a title race which is leaving everyone else behind. We have also already played away against all the big three. With two 1-0 wins and a 1-1 draw.

However, the most recent game, away to Atleti, was by far the best. It was for me, a defensive gameplan carried out to perfection, and was what inspired me to continue this thread.

We were coming up against an Atleti managed by Pep Guardiola. So this game was always going to be an interesting clash of styles. 4-3-3 vs 5 at the back. Play out of defence vs hoof it long, Relentless pressing vs low block. Tiki-Taka vs Anti football. 

My 'default' tactic, which I used for the majority of games where I was superior, was a standard 4-3-3:

However, it would've been a mistake to simply 'adapt' this tactic and starting XI by lowering the pressing lines and changing mentality. Firstly, due to personnel. Although my midfield is very balanced and is equally comfortable in defence as attack, both my fullbacks are much more effective going forward. As well as this, my wingers are much more suited to playing on the front foot. they lack work rate, stamina, marking and positioning to track opposition fullbacks up and down the field all day. These players simply aren't quite suited to playing low blocks and grinding out results in a 4-3-3. 

Even worse are the roles and duties. My fullbacks immediately bomb up the field when we get the ball, since they are on attack. this isn't good if, as soon as we get the ball, we want to play it safe. Not only will we play very few passes forward to these players, we won't have defensive cover for turnovers nor will we have sufficient passing options deep to play through any pressure. Secondly, we have two attack duties up top. This means these players won't track back very much, especially the striker. We cannot afford to invite pressure if we don't get the numbers back to defend.

The solution?

5-3-2

Changing my left winger for an extra centreback gave us two benefits:

• 5 at the back gives our poor defensive fullbacks more room for error than a back 4
• Moving our remaining winger up to the ST position gives him less defensive responsibility and lets us utilise his pace and dribbling better on any counter attacks, seeing as he won't be tracking back all the way to his own corner flag.

In terms of players, subbing out our normal starting CM, Ilic, for a BWM, Thorsby, allowed us to sacrifice a good dribbler and passer, in exchange for more energy and better tackling in midfield. Since we won't be controlling the game, we need fewer excellent technical players, and more who are willing to get stuck in. Also, you will notice fewer attack duties and more defence + support duties. A mix of defence and support allows us both to defend compactly / have men behind the ball, as well as have enough players willing to get forward if it looks like a counter is on. When there looks to be no opportunity to get forward, everyone will stay back for security and to offer safe passing options.

 

The result was that we were able to force a scrappy game, with neither side having an xG of greater than 1. Looking at the average positions, you can see that we rarely left out own half, and defended in a solid low block, which forced Atleti to play round our front and sides. Atleti dominated the ball in the middle third of the pitch, but were unable to get so close to our box, with only 8% of the play being in our third.

 

We scored what turned out to be the winner in one of the most anti football goals you'll ever see. Cautious sideways and backwards passing between our defenders, and once the pressure comes, we go all the way back to the keeper to hoof it long. Chukwueze pounces on the CB's missed clearance and slots home the 1v1.

 

 

[Jack722]

And just for fun, we decided to see out the last 5-10 minutes of the game on very defensive. When I have any doubts at all about how to setup my tactic. I pick the mentality first based on the game situation (which should normally be quite easy based on if youre winning / losing and on the betting odds). And then I re-read the mentality description, to remind me of how I should set up the formation, roles and duties.

If you look at very defensive:

What's important here is that:

1. We're not looking to score. At all
2. We always play the safe option. If there is no safe option, we clear it.
3. Keeping more players behind the ball than usual and reducing space.

this immediately makes me think three things. Firstly, a bottom heavy formation. Secondly, everyone on defence, while defending as deep as possible. Thirdly, sub in as many naturally defensive players as possible.

the resulting abomination is what i ended up with below:

Important points:

• As low of a block as possible
• Only possession instruction being to waste time (if we're not looking to score, why do I need to overload them with instructions on how to score?)
• The wings are occupied by a nautral FB and a natural CM that are both competent playing on the wing. There is no need for pacey dribblers with flair in this situation.

The way we saw out the game, to me at least, was absolutely beautiful. Although I'm sure it will hurt for a lot of you to look at. Here are the final few seconds of the game:

 

My favourite part was our striker (#20) putting in a tackle on their striker (#10).

[Tsuru]

Em 17/07/2022 em 23:38, Jack722 disse:

honestly this looks pretty good to me. Only thing I would change is the AF to a TM(s), DLF(s) or PF(s) on the defensive tactic. You don't really need a forward that doesn't track back to 'spearhead' your attack when youre barely attacking. Also, support duties still make runs in behind if a clear opportunity is there, such as large open space or an opposition mistake. Maybe I would stick to only using DMs or only using CMs across all three tactics, so that it is easier for the players to learn one position instead of two. Also I haven't tried using 'much' lower loe/dline very much. I reguarly use this to see out games where I'm really clinging on to moderate success, but I dont know how viable it is to use for a whole game, or even a considerable number of minutes within a game. And normally I set up my roles to be even more defensive when using 'much' lower, like play a 541 with a PF(d) so that we're ultra compact. Although it does eliminate any sort of attacking threat from your team.

How did it go?

Yeah, you were right about the CMs/DMs. Moving them up or down the field adds a complexity layer that, although can be manageable, can make things more complicated. Sometimes we have players that do well both positions, but sometimes we don´t. I also felt that the 4-2-3-1 was too risky and the 4-4-1-1 was not being good enough on counter attacks. In fact, the 4-4-1-1 is a complicated formation because it lacks a lot of power on the flanks on the last third.

So I thought that, if I really want to change the strategies and become more flexible, I should stick with the same formation. Then I decided to go with a 4-4-2: simple, easy and very flexible.

I used some tactics from Rashidi´s YouTube channel as templates for the more attacking formation, which is this one...
 

 

...and for the counter 4-4-2, which is the one below.

 

 

For the most defensive strategy - used on games against very hard opponents and to hold on comfortable leads/end of matches - I decided to give it a chance to FM´s 4-4-2 Park the Bus template. I saw a video on YouTube in which the tactic worked very well and I thought that on some circumstances it could be useful.

The first tests with this system went very well, including good matches using Park the Bus when necessary, but then I decided to stop playing FM. I came back recently with a new save and I have been playing pre-season, now using this system from the very starting point. 

Despite the tactics itself, I think that being flexible is key here. If we always adapt our strategy we have much more winning chances than trying to insist on playing always the same way.

[Rolotor]

Em 27/07/2022 em 17:51, Tsuru disse:

Yeah, you were right about the CMs/DMs. Moving them up or down the field adds a complexity layer that, although can be manageable, can make things more complicated. Sometimes we have players that do well both positions, but sometimes we don´t. I also felt that the 4-2-3-1 was too risky and the 4-4-1-1 was not being good enough on counter attacks. In fact, the 4-4-1-1 is a complicated formation because it lacks a lot of power on the flanks on the last third.

So I thought that, if I really want to change the strategies and become more flexible, I should stick with the same formation. Then I decided to go with a 4-4-2: simple, easy and very flexible.

I used some tactics from Rashidi´s YouTube channel as templates for the more attacking formation, which is this one...
 

 

...and for the counter 4-4-2, which is the one below.

 

 

For the most defensive strategy - used on games against very hard opponents and to hold on comfortable leads/end of matches - I decided to give it a chance to FM´s 4-4-2 Park the Bus template. I saw a video on YouTube in which the tactic worked very well and I thought that on some circumstances it could be useful.

The first tests with this system went very well, including good matches using Park the Bus when necessary, but then I decided to stop playing FM. I came back recently with a new save and I have been playing pre-season, now using this system from the very starting point. 

Despite the tactics itself, I think that being flexible is key here. If we always adapt our strategy we have much more winning chances than trying to insist on playing always the same way.

Hello! Just checking up: are you still using this tactic? Have you used any PIs or OIs?

[Rolotor]

Em 27/07/2022 em 13:05, Jack722 disse:

I've left the West Ham save for now, and tried bringing some defensive football to a stronger team with larger ambitions. Villarreal.

The year is 2025, and although we are fresh from winning the league last season, Villarreal is still some way of the giants of Real Madrid and Barcelona. We're more or less on the same level as Ateltico Madrid. With our squad strength, unlike West Ham, we should be able to play positively against pretty much every team in the league. Apart from Madrid, Barca and away to Atleti.

Fast forward to mid way through the season, and our defensive tactics have already done their job for us. We're one point behind Real madrid, in a title race which is leaving everyone else behind. We have also already played away against all the big three. With two 1-0 wins and a 1-1 draw.

However, the most recent game, away to Atleti, was by far the best. It was for me, a defensive gameplan carried out to perfection, and was what inspired me to continue this thread.

We were coming up against an Atleti managed by Pep Guardiola. So this game was always going to be an interesting clash of styles. 4-3-3 vs 5 at the back. Play out of defence vs hoof it long, Relentless pressing vs low block. Tiki-Taka vs Anti football. 

My 'default' tactic, which I used for the majority of games where I was superior, was a standard 4-3-3:

However, it would've been a mistake to simply 'adapt' this tactic and starting XI by lowering the pressing lines and changing mentality. Firstly, due to personnel. Although my midfield is very balanced and is equally comfortable in defence as attack, both my fullbacks are much more effective going forward. As well as this, my wingers are much more suited to playing on the front foot. they lack work rate, stamina, marking and positioning to track opposition fullbacks up and down the field all day. These players simply aren't quite suited to playing low blocks and grinding out results in a 4-3-3. 

Even worse are the roles and duties. My fullbacks immediately bomb up the field when we get the ball, since they are on attack. this isn't good if, as soon as we get the ball, we want to play it safe. Not only will we play very few passes forward to these players, we won't have defensive cover for turnovers nor will we have sufficient passing options deep to play through any pressure. Secondly, we have two attack duties up top. This means these players won't track back very much, especially the striker. We cannot afford to invite pressure if we don't get the numbers back to defend.

The solution?

5-3-2

Changing my left winger for an extra centreback gave us two benefits:

• 5 at the back gives our poor defensive fullbacks more room for error than a back 4
• Moving our remaining winger up to the ST position gives him less defensive responsibility and lets us utilise his pace and dribbling better on any counter attacks, seeing as he won't be tracking back all the way to his own corner flag.

In terms of players, subbing out our normal starting CM, Ilic, for a BWM, Thorsby, allowed us to sacrifice a good dribbler and passer, in exchange for more energy and better tackling in midfield. Since we won't be controlling the game, we need fewer excellent technical players, and more who are willing to get stuck in. Also, you will notice fewer attack duties and more defence + support duties. A mix of defence and support allows us both to defend compactly / have men behind the ball, as well as have enough players willing to get forward if it looks like a counter is on. When there looks to be no opportunity to get forward, everyone will stay back for security and to offer safe passing options.

 

The result was that we were able to force a scrappy game, with neither side having an xG of greater than 1. Looking at the average positions, you can see that we rarely left out own half, and defended in a solid low block, which forced Atleti to play round our front and sides. Atleti dominated the ball in the middle third of the pitch, but were unable to get so close to our box, with only 8% of the play being in our third.

 

We scored what turned out to be the winner in one of the most anti football goals you'll ever see. Cautious sideways and backwards passing between our defenders, and once the pressure comes, we go all the way back to the keeper to hoof it long. Chukwueze pounces on the CB's missed clearance and slots home the 1v1.

 

 

Hello, Jack.

Loved these tactics, and I've been trying to adopt them in my own saves, which made for some very challenging and entertaining gameplay.

One question: what are the individual player instructions you used for your Villareal 4-3-3 tactic?

Thanks once again!

[Jack722]

13 hours ago, Rolotor said:

Hello, Jack.

Loved these tactics, and I've been trying to adopt them in my own saves, which made for some very challenging and entertaining gameplay.

One question: what are the individual player instructions you used for your Villareal 4-3-3 tactic?

Thanks once again!

Thanks for the positive feedback

It's been a while so I'm not 100% sure, but I don't think there were any instructions. Many players have that personal instruction mark, but that's just because I automate it so that a certain player in a certain position will always play a specific role.

[Tsuru]

Em 19/08/2022 em 20:43, Rolotor disse:

Hello! Just checking up: are you still using this tactic? Have you used any PIs or OIs?

Hi Rolotor.

Yes I used some PIs on the flank players to make them Play Narrower. However I am not using these tactics anymore because although they are good, they did not fit my team very well.

@Jack722I have been facing some problems when changing the strategy. Normally when I am the favourite team I start with the more attacking tactic, then after a goal I change to counter attack as I think parking the bus very soon can be a lot of risk.

However the team is suffering to control the match and explore the counters well - normally the other teams move up their lines and we get stuck on our field. Did you have any problems like these?

This is not the first time that low block/counter tactics make my team too passive and opponents create too many chances, maybe it is something I am doing wrong, or maybe it is my tactic itself or something, so I would just like to know if you too have faced this before.

It is just that this is so frustrating, sometimes we are playing very well and retreat to control the match and explore counters but we simple stop playing and it becomes more risky than if we simple kept attacking.

Edited August 24, 2022 by Tsuru

[Jack722]

11 hours ago, Tsuru said:

This is not the first time that low block/counter tactics make my team too passive and opponents create too many chances, maybe it is something I am doing wrong, or maybe it is my tactic itself or something, so I would just like to know if you too have faced this before.

It is just that this is so frustrating, sometimes we are playing very well and retreat to control the match and explore counters but we simple stop playing and it becomes more risky than if we simple kept attacking.

What tactic do you use? It's hard to help without knowing what you're doing

All I can offer now is a quick summary/checklist for playing cautious and below

• Roles and duties that make sense
  • Be ultra wary of any attack duty that won't track back so much and will rush forward when on the ball
  • Why have a poacher if you're not trying to make chances for him? Something like a TM that can protect the ball and play over/through a press in general is a better idea. Also why pick a CWB and have someone in your defensive line roam around and take risks and dribble. Don't be afraid to use 'unattractive' roles like PFd and FBd
  • My rule of thumb: 0 attack duties, >= 4 defend duties.
• Formation that makes sense
  • Again a rule of thumb is any flat formation with no more than 2 players in AM and ST strata. 5-3-2, 4-4-2, 4-5-1, 5-4-1. This formations have enough defensive players and are easier to collapse on to itself and be extremely compact
• Keep the Dline and LOE and Pressing triggers at the same level always (unless you're 100% sure you know what you're doing) ex. All on lower, all on much lower, or all on standard.
• Make an effort to keep up tactical familiarity.
  • Practice your cautious tactic multiple times in pre-season
  • If a player has fluid familiarity as an AF in an attacking tactic, make sure he is training as a PFs/d or TMs in order to fit into your cautious tactic when needed.
• Pick the right players
  • I reguarly train and play natural fullbacks or central midfielders in the winger position to use as subs for when I need to go defensive. I find they have much better defensive attributes than any natural winger. 
  • For strikers, finishing/flair/vision/agility is less valuable in these tactics. Instead it's good to have first touch/strength/balance/pace/work rate
• Keep narrow 
  • I always by default use defend narrower if I don't have an extra central player such as a 3 CB or 3CM formation. I find that a 442 will always suffer through the middle in a low block if you don't defend narrower.

 

 

 

Edited August 24, 2022 by Jack722

[Jack722]

On 27/07/2022 at 17:51, Tsuru said:

...and for the counter 4-4-2, which is the one below.

 

Also this doesn't seem to me like a defensive tactic. I imagine you can get some nice counter attacks with this setup, but I don't believe it's defensive solid and personally wouldn't use it if I wanted to hold onto a lead or play for a draw. I didn't mention anything before because you said it was producing good results, but this has far too many attack duties to be a defensively solid cautious tactic.

[Tsuru]

50 minutos atrás, Jack722 disse:

Also this doesn't seem to me like a defensive tactic. I imagine you can get some nice counter attacks with this setup, but I don't believe it's defensive solid and personally wouldn't use it if I wanted to hold onto a lead or play for a draw. I didn't mention anything before because you said it was producing good results, but this has far too many attack duties to be a defensively solid cautious tactic.

Thank you for your feedbacks.

How would you setup a 442 focused on holding a lead or playing for a draw? Just for me to have an idea.

The attacking tactic is working well and the park the bus is too, but the counter/holding one is not helping us at all.

[Jack722]

8 hours ago, Tsuru said:

Thank you for your feedbacks.

How would you setup a 442 focused on holding a lead or playing for a draw? Just for me to have an idea.

The attacking tactic is working well and the park the bus is too, but the counter/holding one is not helping us at all.

442 is one of the more difficult ones to do because it encourages you to put in two strikers and two wingers. Four players who may not be that good defensively. Encourage defensive and physical attributes, as well as work rate, over the flashier attributes. In a 442, sometimes I accommodate my more attacking wingers by converting one of them to strikers, and playing wide midiflders or fullbacks at winger.

But I'd go for something like:

Mentality: Cautious

TI's: Regroup, Counter, Lower Dline, Less often pressing triggers, Lower lOE, Defend Narrower.

Formation:

The roles here are very rough, so you don't need to copy all of them exactly. But if you want to change any: try keep the duty the same (A/S/D), and avoid particuarly risky roles like CWB and AP, that are available on support. try make the roles as similar as possible to your other tactic to avoid drops in familiarity. So if you normally play IW's, feel free to use them here, same with BPD.. Or swap the CMd for a DLPd, or the CMs for a BBMs.

[Tsuru]

1 hora atrás, Jack722 disse:

442 is one of the more difficult ones to do because it encourages you to put in two strikers and two wingers. Four players who may not be that good defensively. Encourage defensive and physical attributes, as well as work rate, over the flashier attributes. In a 442, sometimes I accommodate my more attacking wingers by converting one of them to strikers, and playing wide midiflders or fullbacks at winger.

But I'd go for something like:

Mentality: Cautious

TI's: Regroup, Counter, Lower Dline, Less often pressing triggers, Lower lOE, Defend Narrower.

Formation:

The roles here are very rough, so you don't need to copy all of them exactly. But if you want to change any: try keep the duty the same (A/S/D), and avoid particuarly risky roles like CWB and AP, that are available on support. try make the roles as similar as possible to your other tactic to avoid drops in familiarity. So if you normally play IW's, feel free to use them here, same with BPD.. Or swap the CMd for a DLPd, or the CMs for a BBMs.

Very nice, thank you. Considering my main tactic it would be something like this:
 

 

Just ignore the NCB, it is a standard from Rate my Tactic´s 442 and I forgot to change it 

I tried to downgrade the striker pair on a logical way, that is, the main tactic has an attacking and a support duty, so here I tried a support and a defend one using PFs, which are roles that fit well the two men upfront. 

Also the DLP-Su that normally plays on the left became a simple CM-Su as we don´t want him risking things too much. The other roles are just duty downgrades so I think it is a nice starting point.

Edited August 25, 2022 by Tsuru

[Jack722]

1 hour ago, Tsuru said:

Very nice, thank you. Considering my main tactic it would be something like this:
 

 

Just ignore the NCB, it is a standard from Rate my Tactic´s 442 and I forgot to change it 

I tried to downgrade the striker pair on a logical way, that is, the main tactic has an attacking and a support duty, so here I tried a support and a defend one using PFs, which are roles that fit well the two men upfront. 

Also the DLP-Su that normally plays on the left became a simple CM-Su as we don´t want him risking things too much. The other roles are just duty downgrades so I think it is a nice starting point.

I don't see any reason why that shouldn't work. Make sure to use the instructions i said as well for a starting point. 

Also make sure to have the familiarity as high as possible through training and friendlies before using it in a big game.