A 3-4-3 non-WB experiment

[LPQR]

Hello everyone, thought I'd do a write up on an experiment I've been running trying to make one of my favourite formations work in FM. Ever since this save with VFB stuttgart in FM16 and coining out a 3-2-2-1-2 interpretation of a 3-4-3 that has brought me so much joy in the game I've tried to create similar systems in the follow up versions of the game but ultimately fell short of the same success mainly due to the change in behaviour of some key roles for the tactic - HB and DLP mainly and specifically, their interaction with the back line. Also worth noting the inability to manually set team fluidity and that being a consequence of duty setting on a player level.

What I love about that formation is the fact that it uses the two holding midfielders to create cover for the defensive line rather than relying on wing-backs to run 20km per game up and down the wing as it is commonly expected from most used 3-4-3 variants. I mean, logically speaking, in order to form the ideal 5-man defensive line, doesn't it make more sense to have 2 players already sitting deep drop back between the defenders in the defensive phase rather than expecting the wing backs that are positioned around the enemy box during the attacking phase to run all the pitch-length back? There would be, of course, implications regarding the absence of a midfield screen in front of the defenders in that scenario, however, nothing that can't be managed without a bit of creativity regarding player positioning/movement. In the end, even one of the midfielders dropping in between the 3 CB's would be enough to create a solid back 4, guarded by 1 DM.

Anyways, even though the HB or the DLP do not perform the drop between defenders as I would have liked them to in FM21 I thought I'd give this formation a go and document my thought process whilst I try to make this work.

 

Disclaimer - as counter-intuitive as it may seem this thread is mostly about me finding the most work-able solution for this formation and listing out my ideas and reflections during the process rather than creating a world-beater tactic so please treat it accordingly

 

Part 1: Initial set-up and drawing board musings

The club I've chosen to try this with is Borussia Monchengladbach, one of my favourite teams in the Bundesliga. With a media prediction of 5th it should also prove a decent enough challenge.

 

And beside the fact I'm half-in-love with the club's history and style of play, the more pragmatic reasons for choosing this club lie in the stats:

 

Highest rated team in the league for aggression, teamwork and work-rate as well as the available selection for wide players make this squad a perfect fit for what I'm envisioning regarding the tactical application.

 

So, the initial theories that I will use as pillars for the start the experiment will be the following:

 

1. Wide players acting as 'wide shuttlers' - not getting in too deep neither in the defensive phase, nor the attacking phase, rather acting as a wide passing option and a point of dispatch for crosses from deep and dangerous through balls angled towards the attacking front three. Their role will also be to create additional pressure in the middle of the field, where I will be looking to maximize the advantages of having basically 5 players pressing for the ball. 

2. The two holding midfielders performing the duty of protecting/joining the backline (if I find a way to pull that off somehow) and most importantly (!) playing a wing-covering role together with the WMs and the Wide CBs in 'the triangle of pressure' aimed at covering the most problematic position for this formation: the hole

 

3. Employ a medium block in order to benefit from numerical superiority behind the ball and look to hit on the counter. Facilitate quick transitions by having fluid movement between the front three and rely on the AM to be the 'carrier' during offensive transitions

 

4. Defend Wide and force the opposition inside - by spreading the back three out and making space for the DM's to (ideally) drop deep we could have a back line composed of either 5 or 7 players, depending on where the WMs are positioned when the opponent is close to our box - most likely in a 'high camp' scenario where the opponent is moving the ball side-ways in front of our defensive formation looking for an opening is where our WMs will join the backline, otherwise getting caught open on the counter will most likely leave us defending with our 5-man block consisting of the DMs and CBs. Even without the DM's dropping in between CBs, by forcing the opposition inside we will have the numerical advantage against pretty much any formation, even midfield heavy like 4231AM or 4-3-1-2/ 4-3-2-1

 

So, that being said, this is the 'blank canvas' I'm starting off with:

- I will see how the formation reacts to 'gegen'-like instructions as I believe our numerical advantage in midfield could mix very well with counter-press mechanisms, allowing us to overwhelm the opposition whilst they try to build from the back or move the ball upfront through the middle. I have also instructed the AM to tackle harder as well, and given the PF role has that instruction hard-coded, we now have all front 3 instructed to press like hell and tackle hard.

- The PF(A) has been instructed to 'roam from position' in order to have freedom in exploiting space for the final ball opening. Both PFs have been instructed to shoot less often.

- Both CBs have been instructed to stay wider for obvious reasons

- the AM instructed to 'roam from position', 'take more risks', 'move into channels' and 'get further forward'

- I have set the WM role (probably one of my favourites in FM) for the wide players given that they are highly customize-able and offer great balance between attacking threat, defensive stability & overall team-interaction. For now, these are the PIs I have set, I will adapt the role as I go on.

 

 

 

Part 2: Spotting gaps & adjusting accordingly

As always, the first few games are for analysis and adjustment, and we have started with a mixed bag:

 

The good

- strong diamond shape in the build up from deep phase allowing quick progression of the ball from back to front

- wide CBs 'stay wider' PI helps support WMs better than I anticipated

 

- the WM behaviour in defensive transitions is fantastic and it results in us having a 6-7 man backline in defence when transition is complete (enemy 'camp in our box' scenario)

- the HB does not drop nicely between the CBs as I expected but it maintains very close proximity to the backline which is hugely encouraging

 

The 'could be better'

 

Gladbach vs. Wolfsburg

observation: the WMs are sitting too wide during the offensive transitions and often isolated from the closely-knit front three surging forward. Because they are both on support duties, they will never be ahead of the front two or the front three during the attacking phase and I don't expect them to be: what I want from them is to stay closer to & interact more with the front three in the offensive transition as a passing option.

adjustments: ticked 'sit narrower' and 'roam from position' PIs for both WMs. In combination with 'run wide' this helps them stay narrower during the build up phase and only reach the extremis of the pitch by the end of the offensive transition and make wide runs only when the are on the ball, maintaining off the ball movement narrow. Roam from position ensure they exploit space more actively, working more to make themselves available for a receiving pass.

 

observation: the higher defensive line and counter-press instruction are leaving our team-shape exposed because the players favour staying high up in advanced positions once the opponent has gained the ball, specifically the DLP & the WMs. 

adjustments: dropped both D-line and engagement line one notch (now set to standard) and changed from 'counter-press' to 'regroup' team instruction in order to make sure that once the ball is lost players will prioritize getting back into shape as quickly as possible. The lower d-line will also allow some extra time/buffer zone for the three CBs to stay off-pressure until the 're-group' movement of the players is complete.

 

observation: the system is very successful in maintaining possession high up the pitch however there are many situations in which both, the DLP and the HB would benefit from a deeper passing option. as seen below, the HB is unable to pass to the BPD because he is too deep and marked by the opposition forward whilst passing to the wide CBs would offer less further passing opportunity.

adjustments: changed BPD to Libero(S) as the Libero pushes further up the pitch and offers more creative options in recycling the ball deep. 

 

Gladbach vs. Mainz

observation: Whilst they do put pressure on the opposition quite well, the three players responsible for 'the triangle' covering 'the hole' are not effective in winning the ball from opposition players making wide runs: player. Out of all three, only the WM that is already instructed to tackle harder is performing best the blocking duties on the wing.

adjustments: instructed the wide CBs and the DLP & HB to tackle harder. Considering employing opposition instructions for AML/AMR or MR/ML players in the future if this adjustment is not successful. 

observation: the AM(a) is not positioned forward enough during counter breaks and is overlapping space with the DLP(S), focusing too much on the low-medium build-up phase. What I would prefer him to do in a 'recycle ball' scenario is to push forward and to only pick up the ball in the opposition third, looking to deliver the final ball or attack the goal himself. 

adjustments: changed AM(A) to Shadow Striker role. Considering changing DLP(S) to Regista (with 'get further forward' PI) in order to provide further pressure up the pitch whilst mounting counter-attacks - this should also help the left WM(s) being better supported high up the pitch

 

Adapted Version & Results

 

Having completed all of the above adjustments after the Mainz game, these are the results we have managed to obtain:

 

League

 

Our PF(A), Breel Embolo won the top scorer award with 31 goals in 30 matches and our Regista, Neuhaus, won the top assister award with 12, followed in second by our right WM with 11.

   

Cup

 

Pretty chuffed with the results of the test, although I have to admit that the very high work-rate of this BMG squad might actual blur some of the short-comings of this formation/system. I will test it out with another team just to have an all-round conclusion.

 

 

Edited October 10, 2021 by LPQR

[LPQR]

Part 3: the diagonal pass & defensive shape & movement

 

The last part was about focusing on the specific formation in question and trying to understand what combination of player roles & team instructions combine to give us a balanced style of play that maximizes the pros and minimizes the cons of the said set-up. Even though in terms of results I am pretty pleased with what we've achieved in tests of the last version of the set-up with Sassuolo and Gladbach there are a number of things happening on the pitch that I think can be better:

1. 'The ball moves quicker than the player' - If we were to divide the attacking scenarios into 'camp in enemy half' and 'fast counter break' then this formation heavily favours the first: because we can not afford all-out attacking wingers they are left behind in the transition phase and the ball naturally moves quicker (than the players) to the most advanced players on the pitch which are the two strikers. By definition the reliance on just 3 players (2 strikers with the AM behind) to break down the opposition in a fast-moving counter is huge and we can only benefit from the 3-2-5 shape in the 'camp in enemy half' scenario when the WMs have had enough time to catch up with the offensive trio. That is a massive disadvantage. 

A potential solution would be to lower the passing tempo and synchronize the speed of the movement of the ball with that of the movement of the players, however I feel that would hurt our counter break efficiency even more as we would lose momentum and slow-down the transition speed, thus allowing the opponent more time to regroup.

2. ‘The lonely man and the obvious midfield gap’ - as a consequence of the above, either our AM or one of the forwards on the ball in a ‘fast counter scenario’ are often left with a mammoth task of covering a huge amount of ground, both horizontally and vertically, with support options horizontally fairly limited mostly because our WMs are not as available for support passes as I would have liked due to them being heavily involved in covering the wings and not having enough time to move from the corner flag area where they’ve been dealing with an opposition winger (let’s say) to the advanced wing or half-space area where they’d need to be to provide a passing option to the AM or PF in the ‘fast counter-break’ scenario (see above screenshot).

A very similar pattern can be observed in the support options available vertically in the midfield as the HB would logically not spring forward until late in the transition and we would only have the DLP and AM in charge of a very large midfield area and often out-numbered by the opposition, which goes against the very principle of ‘overloading the midfield’ that I wanted to achieve.

3. ‘Two strikers sounds great but what on earth are they doing?’ - I won’t lie, our two strikers have been doing a fantastic job in scoring, but… a closer look at the types of goals they have scored tells me the absolute majority of these goals came from the ‘fast counter break’ and very few from the ‘camp in enemy half’ scenario. Given the fact that I would prefer a less structured approach and have them contribute to more than just the attacking phase, another point to consider is how much they are helping the team when not charging towards the goal. They are both pressing forwards and they definitely do press the opponent towards ball recovery however their positioning whilst doing that is affecting team shape to great extent and offers advantages on a very occasional and random basis. 

Also, we benefit from having the PF(a) in a very high-up-the pitch position in situations where he has a clear passing lane available that would place him in a 1v1 situation with the keeper, however these situations are limited, especially versus formation defending deeper. So apart from these occurrences, there are obvious disadvantages created by the gap left behind the PF(a):

He does not benefit from enough support to navigate complex defences

He pushes the defensive line of the oppositions too far in-field so the PF(S) AM and WMs can not be placed in 1v1 scenarios and won’t be able to utilize their pace or dribbling, being forced to recycle the ball horizontally and focus on the PF(A) as the main disruptor of the opposition line in a ‘fast counter scenario’

In conclusion, all of the above (supported by match analysis) go to conclude that the style of play (even though statistically efficient) is lacking balance in a number of areas and can be further improved. 

 

So, where to from here?

This all started with the ambition of creating a 3-4-3 with no wing backs and everything you’ve read until now shows the advantages and the disadvantages of the 3-2-2-1-2 interpretation of the 3-4-3. In order to better balance the system and have a more efficient approach to more phases of play I have decided that the main pieces on my chessboard that I’d need to move in order for the above shortcomings to be massively redressed would be the 2 forwards. In other words - if I can have one player there that would track back enough to provide a stable midfield axis in defensive transitions (whilst retaining attacking threat) and another one that would be the main focal point of the attacks however not disrupting the front 5s 1v1 probabilities in the 3-2-5 shape in attack then everything would make a lot more sense.

The solution? 

 

- I have moved one forward down into the AM position and have changed the other’s role into a central, supporting striker that likes to drop deep into midfield (F9 in this case).

- I have also raised the engagement line to the highest possible & ticked 'prevent short GK distribution' in order to push the front 3 position on the pitch a little bit

- Changed Regista to DLP to offer stability in the double-pivot, also because we won't be needing him to go far up the pitch anymore thanks to the AMs

- ticket 'offside trap' and changed all 3 defenders to defend duty in order for the trap to be functional

- due to the 4-man axis (WM-SS-SS-WM) and the 2 DMs behind providing a clear overload of the midfield, have gone back to counter-pressing

 

The changes are noticeable immediately:

 

1. First of all, we get the same 3-2-5 shape in attack however with one key difference: because the F9 drops deep and drags the opponent D-line with him he allows the rest of the players (WMs and AMs) to be positioned equally offensively, providing equal chances for a run on goal. What is also important to note is that each of the front three can drop even deeper, destabilizing the opponent defensive formation and making it hard to predict which player will perform that function and thus assigning a respective marker.

In this scenario, all of the front 5 players’ first touch, acceleration & off the ball movement stats are absolutely key, given that most of the breakthroughs will occur via diagonal balls or through balls. To give you a better idea of how these final balls & run on goals happen, check this video out:

The Importance of the Diagonal Pass

2. Second, we now have much, much better support in the half-spaces for the WMs as they each have an AM close to them to combine with. We also create a ‘box’ in the middle of the pitch with  the HB, DLP & 2AMs which equally helps us maintain possession and break opponent possession much better than before. This also means that counter-pressing is a viable option yet again and I have returned to that team instructions (changed from re-group)

3. Third, our front three are dropping much deeper in the defensive phase, each of them taking on a man and helping our defensive shape immensely when the opposition is inside our half:

 

I have run the test on a few teams using this set-up and the results have been good:

Atletico Pamplona (media prediction 12th) - stopped mid-season due to the overwhelming amount of contract negotiation requests & long term injuries for both AMs

VFB Stuttgart (media prediction 14th)

 

Brentford (media prediction 20th)

 

Bologna (media prediction 9th)

 

Some observations whilst testing:

1) Inverted players on the wings (right foot at LM and left foot at RM) can bring a different dimension to the style of play - most noticeable at Bologna where Orsolini had a killer season as a left-footed RM

2) the AM quality is crucial, particularly  off the ball, first touch, acceleration & finishing attributes

3) in the Brentford test I have changed F9 to DLF because Ivan Toney is such a physical front man and it brought on some interesting variations to the style of play - definitely not a better or worse option, just depends on the player available and how he interprets the role

4) due to the fact that the 2 DMs are so active in the half-spaces they get into situations where they act like a full-back on defend duty a lot of the times and they tend to have a lot of openings for crosses 

5) strong CBs with good positioning, concentration and decision attributes are very important in order for the offside trap to function properly

6) AM & AP combo can also be functional - tried that at Bologna with decent results however less incisive movement in the final 3rd due to the front 5s un-even positioning in the 3-2-5 attack shape

7) using 'tighter marking' for opposition IFs/IWs can be very effective 

 

Edited October 18, 2021 by LPQR

[LPQR]

reserved(2)

[VinceLombardi]

I play a nearly identical setup (same formation, slightly different roles) which I also pulled forward from my FM16 save. I absolutely love it. It works well as the underdog and as the stronger team. It's by far my favorite formation in FM21. Played 10+ seasons on a journeyman save and its been my primary formation for the entire save. It's so good, I abandoned my normal "American Football" style playbook for it. 

I recommend DM(s) with hold position for both the DMCs, it's a great holding midfielder role and they work great together as a double pivot. I also have them both as close down more, tackle harder, and mark tighter. They play a bit of a BWM/Stopper role on defense which allows my CDs more freedom to just focus on shutting down through balls, passes over the top, and blocking shots (I further encourage this by having the CDs all close down less). It also gets them (the DMCs) involved in protecting the flanks if/when the wide Midfielders get caught up field or dont track back enough in defense.

I think this will help some of your defensive concerns. 

In terms of the AMC, I like the SS(a), but I kicked him out to one side and moved the supporting striker (I use a DLF(s)) to the center spot. It adds just a little assymetric variation, but more importantly gets the AMC out of the middle, where he can get shut down too easily by an opposing DMC -- which is common as you face more defensive teams.

In FM16, that AMC could charge down the middle of the field and run on to balls between the opposing CDs and so he worked well right in the middle of the field. In FM21 the defender AI is good enough to shut that down that run up the middle more often than not. Also having the supporting striker in the central spot, turns the supporting striker into the extra man in the box and forces the CDs to step up to defend him. This frees up both the attacking striker and and AMC to make runs behind the CDs when the CDs step up to challenge the supporting striker. 

It will also help with your issue with the AMC not finding space since with him off to one side he can play with the wife midfielder on that side and create overloads in the channel when the central areas are too congested.

EDIT SCREENSHOT:

 

Edited October 10, 2021 by VinceLombardi

[coach vahid]

It makes me think about some old thread...The Fantatista and the thing with the half spaces...

Always a pleasure to discover your theories. I'm always on fm19. But i'm glad to read you.

[LPQR]

11 hours ago, VinceLombardi said:

I play a nearly identical setup (same formation, slightly different roles) which I also pulled forward from my FM16 save. I absolutely love it. It works well as the underdog and as the stronger team. It's by far my favorite formation in FM21. Played 10+ seasons on a journeyman save and its been my primary formation for the entire save. It's so good, I abandoned my normal "American Football" style playbook for it. 

I recommend DM(s) with hold position for both the DMCs, it's a great holding midfielder role and they work great together as a double pivot. I also have them both as close down more, tackle harder, and mark tighter. They play a bit of a BWM/Stopper role on defense which allows my CDs more freedom to just focus on shutting down through balls, passes over the top, and blocking shots (I further encourage this by having the CDs all close down less). It also gets them (the DMCs) involved in protecting the flanks if/when the wide Midfielders get caught up field or dont track back enough in defense.

I think this will help some of your defensive concerns. 

In terms of the AMC, I like the SS(a), but I kicked him out to one side and moved the supporting striker (I use a DLF(s)) to the center spot. It adds just a little assymetric variation, but more importantly gets the AMC out of the middle, where he can get shut down too easily by an opposing DMC -- which is common as you face more defensive teams.

In FM16, that AMC could charge down the middle of the field and run on to balls between the opposing CDs and so he worked well right in the middle of the field. In FM21 the defender AI is good enough to shut that down that run up the middle more often than not. Also having the supporting striker in the central spot, turns the supporting striker into the extra man in the box and forces the CDs to step up to defend him. This frees up both the attacking striker and and AMC to make runs behind the CDs when the CDs step up to challenge the supporting striker. 

It will also help with your issue with the AMC not finding space since with him off to one side he can play with the wife midfielder on that side and create overloads in the channel when the central areas are too congested.

EDIT SCREENSHOT:

 

that's very very interesting! how do you find the balance on the left flank as I assume the AF must be pretty far apart from the left WM?

[LPQR]

7 hours ago, coach vahid said:

It makes me think about some old thread...The Fantatista and the thing with the half spaces...

Always a pleasure to discover your theories. I'm always on fm19. But i'm glad to read you.

good to have you around mate and thanks for sticking by yes, definitely, the fantasista experiment with Ajax is one of my all time favourite saves

[LPQR]

Just tested the final version of the tactic with Sassuolo (media prediction: 9 in Serie A). Only made 2 transfers - sold Boga and brought Almada in as he could act as back up for either AM or ST positions,

[VinceLombardi]

On 11/10/2021 at 00:58, LPQR said:

that's very very interesting! how do you find the balance on the left flank as I assume the AF must be pretty far apart from the left WM?

My entire gameplan is about getting my  attacking players favorable 1v1 matchups with defenders, isolating that matchup to prevent other defenders from assisting their teammates, and then giving my players the creative freedom to beat their man. 

My buildup is largely about getting the wide midfielders or the AMC the ball in the middle third and allowing them to carry it into/near the box. Meanwhile my other players move forward and prevent the defender nearest the ball carrier from getting assistance from other defenders, creating a 1v1 opportunity. From there, my WMs/AMC are given absolute creative liberty to dictate how they want to play to beat their man. They can dribble, pass, cross, whatever out of that situation -- which is a big reason I use the wide midfielder role, as it largely a blank canvas and the only wide role that doesn't have a cut inside/go wide or cross more/from byline instructions. The support duty with get further forward is a solid, aggressive mentality without getting too single minded in attack. If they can't win the matchup, I want them to pass back into the DMC or wide CD to recycle possession and try again. 

The AMC off-center to the right creates a natural overload to that side which pulls the defense in that direction. This leaves the left midfielder with the entire flank all to himself. He is a little isolated during build up, but it's by design. It also can create a lot of opportunities where he is left entirely undefended around the top corner of the box. Plus as the attack reaches the opposing box, that space is reduced and the left midfielder has plenty of opportunities to link up with the AF(a), DLF(s) or the left DMC(s).

I tried to record some highlights of it in action, but I couldn't figure it out, so I will post some screenshots showing what I mean in another post.

 

Edited October 12, 2021 by VinceLombardi

[VinceLombardi]

This is just a quick shot of my typical buildup as we get the ball forward. I used to run a PF(a)/PF(s) striker pairing like you, but I changed to a AF(a)/DLF(s) as I found the Pressing Forward roles are a little slow in getting to their duties in the attack . They do offer a lot more in defense and certainly can understand the choice, but I want a guy always available for an outlet pass (the DLF(s)) so that my CBs don't just hoof the ball clear all the time and a guy always challenging the defense to make a run on goal (the AF(a)). The SS(a) off center to the right pulls the defense to the right (and often the DLF as well) and creates a bit of an overload to that side. The SS(a) and WM(s) play the ball very well between each other while moving forward at pace and are very effective at carrying the ball into the attacking third. Between 60-80% of my possessions work up the right channel in this manner. The left midfielder also gets a good number of opportunities as he has loads of space and as soon as he breaks past the opposing midfield, he can carry the ball into the opposing third by either sticking to the left or cutting inside and carrying through the middle.

Spoiler

This first sequence shows how moving the supporting striker into the middle of the field can help free up the attacking striker for a run on goal by pulling the opposing DC forward. The DLF receives a header, which he puts back to the DMC, who knocks it forward to the freed AF(a). The initial attack breaks down and the AF(a) gets himself a bit isolated, but the ML quickly runs up to support the attack by offering an outlet for a back pass at the top of the box. The ML is in pretty good position to take a shot, but also has 3 other teammates nearby who are also free in the space created by the initial run by the AF(a). The ML passes to the DMC(s) who has come up to sit just outside of the box and the DMC makes a good shot for a score. A more conservative DMC duty wouldn't have had him forward enough to support the attack in the middle, which is needed as the attacking AMC is regularly too far forward to be a reliable option in the middle, and without the "hold position" instruction the DMC likely would have found himself pulled all the way into the box with a lot less space to work with.

Spoiler

This sequence shows how the DLF and AF can still play solid defense, particularly in the middle third, forcing a turnover, and then immediately enter into the attack. Again, the DLF plays the extra man and destabilizes the defense, freeing a number of runners on goal. The defense recovers and makes a good play, but are unable to make a perfect pass to start a counter attack. This enables the WM(s) to tackle the ball off the would be attacker and then he uses his speed and absolute creative freedom to run across the entire field and up the opposite flank. In doing so, he takes advantage of the defense being out of position from the previous attack, and creates space for the other WM(s) to receive the ball with space to shoot. 

Spoiler

 

Edited October 12, 2021 by VinceLombardi

[LPQR]

32 minutes ago, VinceLombardi said:

This is just a quick shot of my typical buildup as we get the ball forward. I used to run a PF(a)/PF(s) striker pairing like you, but I changed to a AF(a)/DLF(s) as I found the Pressing Forward roles are a little slow in getting to their duties in the attack . They do offer a lot more in defense and certainly can understand the choice, but I want a guy always available for an outlet pass (the DLF(s)) so that my CBs don't just hoof the ball clear all the time and a guy always challenging the defense to make a run on goal (the AF(a)). The SS(a) off center to the right pulls the defense to the right (and often the DLF as well) and creates a bit of an overload to that side. The SS(a) and WM(s) play the ball very well between each other while moving forward at pace and are very effective at carrying the ball into the attacking third. Between 60-80% of my possessions work up the right channel in this manner. The left midfielder also gets a good number of opportunities as he has loads of space and as soon as he breaks past the opposing midfield, he can carry the ball into the opposing third by either sticking to the left or cutting inside and carrying through the middle.

  Reveal hidden contents

This first sequence shows how moving the supporting striker into the middle of the field can help free up the attacking striker for a run on goal by pulling the opposing DC forward. The DLF receives a header, which he puts back to the DMC, who knocks it forward to the freed AF(a). The initial attack breaks down and the AF(a) gets himself a bit isolated, but the ML quickly runs up to support the attack by offering an outlet for a back pass at the top of the box. The ML is in pretty good position to take a shot, but also has 3 other teammates nearby who are also free in the space created by the initial run by the AF(a). The ML passes to the DMC(s) who has come up to sit just outside of the box and the DMC makes a good shot for a score. A more conservative DMC duty wouldn't have had him forward enough to support the attack in the middle, which is needed as the attacking AMC is regularly too far forward to be a reliable option in the middle, and without the "hold position" instruction the DMC likely would have found himself pulled all the way into the box with a lot less space to work with.

  Reveal hidden contents

This sequence shows how the DLF and AF can still play solid defense, particularly in the middle third, forcing a turnover, and then immediately enter into the attack. Again, the DLF plays the extra man and destabilizes the defense, freeing a number of runners on goal. The defense recovers and makes a good play, but are unable to make a perfect pass to start a counter attack. This enables the WM(s) to tackle the ball off the would be attacker and then he uses his speed and absolute creative freedom to run across the entire field and up the opposite flank. In doing so, he takes advantage of the defense being out of position from the previous attack, and creates space for the other WM(s) to receive the ball with space to shoot. 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Now that is what I call a quality post! Fantastic insight mate, it makes me want to go back to creating asymmetric systems and overloads. I am actually experimenting now with 2 AMs and have noticed a massive improvement in the link up play in the half spaces and the general involvement of the wide players. 

[VinceLombardi]

35 minutes ago, LPQR said:

Now that is what I call a quality post! Fantastic insight mate, it makes me want to go back to creating asymmetric systems and overloads. I am actually experimenting now with 2 AMs and have noticed a massive improvement in the link up play in the half spaces and the general involvement of the wide players. 

I really like the difference it makes. I find both the supporting striker and the AMC play better with that minor asymmetric adjustment. Personally, I like putting my wide guys on an island, but that's because of strategic roster and tactical goals I have. I like my wide players running with the ball, and that gives them the most space to do that.

Here is the play vs the press. The wide players on support stay back to assist in the build up and the DMC(s) with hold position stay back and keep that double pivot shape throughout the attack -- which I felt I lost with a roamer like the Regista. In this play they just bounce it around the middle third and then launch a speculative pass that ends up being good for a goal. These sorts of passes from my DMCs have a rather low success rate, but my shape means that even if it fails and the defense clears the ball, I am positioned well to recover the loose ball. And if it goes out for a corner, my DCs are super effective in the air and I'll happily keep trying my luck on the near post all day.

Spoiler

 

[VinceLombardi]

 A quick bit about my team build as it drives a lot of my role/tactical choices:

I put a huge emphasis during team building on physicals > mentals > technicals. This is because physicals and mentals influence all player actions, while technicals only effect certain actions. Generally speaking, I prefer a player to attempt to make the right play (mentals) with the ability to do what he needs to do (physicals) and if the action fails because the technicals aren't there, oh well. Because, the reverse -- a player that can make every play but lacks the physicals to do what needs to be done or the mentals to recognize what the right play is -- is very inconsistent. He might have flashes of amazing, but generally will be frustrating as he makes mistakes or just cant get to where he needs to be to influence the play.

As to specific positions, my CDs need to be very capable in the air as a lot of my defensive strategy is about preventing the opposition from getting the ball to the feet of their scorers. Its also very helpful on set pieces (both offensively and defensively) and to win back the ball when the opposing team tries to clear it. I take a similar approach for my DLF playing in the middle as I want him to be able to recover our own cleared balls and get them to a teammate to create an attack. Plus generally I want him to be a matchup nightmare for midfielders so that the opposing DCs are forced to step up and pressure him, thus freeing up the AF(a) or SS(a). For my primary attackers (the AF(a), WM(s), and SS(a)), I look for winger type players. Fast and with the ability to run with the ball. It doesn't make any difference if my player beats his man if he can't take advantage of the space it opens up. 

Spoiler

This is the results of my last full season. I had a really great shot at winning the league but a uncharacteristic bit of bad form to end the season let me down. Still a good showing considering Real Madrid has about 5x my wage budget. Still a solid campaign, most team goals, 5th lowest conceded, absolutely dominate on set pieces, top goalscorer (3rd year running) & top assist man (2nd year). 

Spoiler

Here are the team stats for the season. While the AF(a) gets the lions share of of the goals (31), lots of people get involved. 4 guys with 10+ and 8 with 5+. Similar story with assists, where the SS(a) led the charge at 24, but 3 guys got 10+ and 6 got 6+ assists. The key passes really help tell the story on how the creating is happening all over the pitch. Finally, I've been pleasantly surprised with the defensive contributions of my attacking players. None of them are particularly good at defending but most are still managing 2+ tackles and 1.5+ interceptions per game. Most of those are coming in the middle third and it really helps us launch some devastating counter attacks. 

 

Spoiler

 

Edited October 12, 2021 by VinceLombardi

[Lbsaligh]

For your adapted tactic that you used with great success with Sassuolo, did you have any player instructions?

[Piperita]

I recently started this kind of 3-4-3 as well. It was my favourite formation back at the other FM and I wanted to have a quick test to see if it translates; now that the WCB is on the horizon, I need some baseline for comparison ^^

Roles and Team instructions

Spoiler

Against better teams the RGA can get swapped for a DLP(s). Counter is optional and depending on the strikers and Trequartista. It adds about 5-8 shots a game but there is some more urgency in attack, lowering the average xG/shot and passing accuracy. For my team it is worth it but if the Ta acks the speed and dribbling to set up the counter or the strikers are not the best scorers, it hurts more than it helps.

Individual instructions:
__Outer CD: Stay Wider. They also both have "Brings Ball out of Defense"
__RGA:  Tackle Harder. PPM to drop deep. If I play against heavy presses, I switch him for a DLPs
__VOLs: Forward, Tackle Harder
__WMs: Forward, Stay Wider, Cross Less Often, Tackle Harder

General idea:
The team is compact in midfield and makes it hard to break down if the wingers and defenders have the speed advantage. The Pressing Forwards harass the backline until they either make a mistake (and with the other striker, a free-flowing playmaker, and the two wingers bombing forwards, there are lots of early passing options) or play a long ball that is easy to pick up for the five at the back and WM. If something goes over? They first have the trap and then the speed and space to intercept the opposition. If they try to play through the defense? It is a solid block in the middle and if they go wide the centre is packed with big strong boys and the WM and outer CD and/or DM also challenge whenever they try to cut inside late.

Both strikers also balance the Trequartista who presses and tackles less urgently but absolutely dominates the spaces given to him by the formation. His biggest strength however? Moving into the channels between fullback and centreback and making way for the wingers to run down the line or cut inside. Or to occupy the DM enough for the Volante to arrive late for a long shot.

Findings about PPM
--I have two PFa currently in my squad:
_____My reserve striker came with the combination of "Likes Ball played into Feet" and "Tries First Time Shots" is an absolute beast from the bench. Low crosses from the WM on his side and through balls from the Ta come directly at his feet and he immediately goes for the shot. Against tired opponents he scores quite well, despite being stock-average otherwise. If I bred some players that have even better movement and first touch? Or are adept at using both feet? A great option to have and as this player uses only few headers and dribbles not that much? Two strong dump stats
_____My main striker is a poor man's Haaland. Not quite so fast. Not quite as strong at finishing. But a little bit taller and blessed(?) with the playmaker PPM of trying to pass instead of shooting and dictating tempo. Which makes him quite unique: He gets a lot of headers from the crosses the WM and Ta offer him and he gets enough chances to score. But when a counter is in progress and he comes from the side, he doesn't do the classical move of cutting inside or shooting with his bad foot, he instead makes flat passes to the players rushing forwards.

--For the PFs I see little difference whether or not he has "Plays with back to goal". They both have roughly the same stats. Which is a shame because I wanted him to set the WM and Ta into motion. What made a difference however was to tell him to shoot with power. This really buffs his long shots that get on target and make them a danger, both directly and from rebounds.

--The Ta is a role with so much liberty, that a player with good flair and mentals can probably be left alone. Alas, my two options already come with some "baggage". One has the nice combination of "One-Twos", "Comes Deep" and "Gets into Area". Which makes him highly mobile and lets him dominate the entire midfield area and often arrive at precisely the right moment around the box. But when not countering and instead building up normally, he clashes with the Regista at times and there is a hole in the front that makes attacks either slow or predictable. The other Ta just has "Killer Balls" and "Gets Forward More Often". As Ta he still roams freely in midfield to receive the ball but he then tends to be less show-offy, instead dribbling free and either passing or shooting directly.

--Both outer CD desperately need "Brings Ball out of Defense". Even as CD this makes them exploit the spaces left on the flanks.

Skills needed
--The WM are key. I often use Wingbacks here because they tend to be fast, have good movement in both offense and defense and, this is key, they know how to tackle. They don't necessarily need a speed advantage over the opposition because there is still a big block behind them, but they should never be completely outclassed and should have at least one way to stop them. Be it through tackles or movement is secondary. Unless I have two towers in the centre, crossing is secondary as low cross-passes or cutbacks to the Ta are often the better weapons. Dribbling is nice to have but when they have it, they should be quicker and have great balance/agility -- losses of possession hurt them a lot! If one has the money/reputation or the youth setup to create them from scratch, a strong inside foot helps them a lot but unfortunately that is quite expensive
--The Central Defenders however must be quick and mentally fit. The Offside Trap must work and they are tasked to sweep up long balls and to follow whoever gets through.
--I like both my DM to be relatively complete offensively. Movement, long shots, AND Vision/Passing make them hard to counter because they can arrive late, shoot from distance, or play some tricky balls. Corresponding PPM and switching positions can further help them there. Defensively my main focus is strength and tackling as well as healthy Aggressiveness/Bravery.
--I planned with a goalkeeper with a high rushing out attribute to help my high line. But the central block does enough stability against classical long balls through the centre. The main danger are fast wingers who cross into the back of the defense and set pieces. Command of Area together with Bravery/Jumping Reach and Reflexes are now my go-to attributes.

Results and usual matches
I went through the preseason, first round of the cup and two qualifying rounds of the EuroLeague with hardly any shot on target faced. Usually it ended something like 2,45 to 0,13. Weaker teams got obliterated and teams on my level or slightly higher couldn't get through and were defeated on the counter. Repeatedly.

At the Bundesliga though? First match I made the mistake to not factor in that Leverkusen has really, really fast wingers. This resulted in two early mistakes costing me and after ten minutes I was 0-2 down. It resulted in a really fun 4-3 and an amazing effort by the offense but defensively there were holes!

The next games were easy results with lots of goals and even though the defense allowed little throughout most of the match, they made a few big mistakes and after leads of two to three goals were achieved, often the got complacent and in the span of a few minutes the opposition's xG went from a respectable 0,2 to something like 0,9. Or they managed to score a quick one completely out of nowhere. I hope that with better CD and some heavy mentoring there will be more solidity!

Where the formations shines the most though? Weirdly enough whenever one player gets send of and I play with the Regista centrally and the VOLs out. Once the opposition opens up as result, the counters are absolutely deadly!

Speaking of send-offs: Especially the wingers and the Volante need some good takling and anticipation AND need to train the formation before being used in "real" games. Otherwise they are in danger of paying quite a few fines throughout the season. If they have the attributes and the familiarity though? The fouls and intensity are rather "normal" and it is the opponent on thin ice. Fouls on the wingers resulting in red cards could almost be considered part of the tactic

___________________

Update: After full familiarity

Assists

Spoiler

I am glad to finally have a formation that goes all-in on passing. The percentage of through-balls is obscene! I also like how the flanks are perfectly symmetrical and at this snapshot it showed. Usually their form switches every so often. Early on in the season I had plenty of angled low passes from the left side to the PFa. After a while the right side made cutbacks to Ta and PFs or the random cross. Or they both play support while the Ta acts on both flanks

Shots faced and fired

Spoiler

After my last formation completely outscored the expected values, now it looks more in line with what we should have. In other words a good formation instead of just good players. Going together with shots faced and fired, this means the average xG/Shot is 0,16 in offense and in defense 0,1

The opposition's conversion rate hurts me a bit inside. I really need to go from a classical Sweeper Keeper to a more conservative keeper and to continue to improve my CD.

Put together I am the lone #1 in xG/game and goals scored, the #1 in xG against and #3 in goals conceded.

Formation in attack

Spoiler

A nice 3-2-3-2 in attack. This can be further improved by giving the Wingers offensive-in-possession PPM. Recently I had to use my Treqs there. The going forward PPM on one side and the getting into area on the other were more dangerous but so, so nice to look at!

I like how the PFs is on line with the PFa most of the time. My centrebacks are a bit too close together in my opinion, but that will end in 22

The Wingbacks are a bit misleading, they stay wider most of the time. But in the final third they cut inside rather rapidly after I switched to more even-footed players.

 

Edited October 14, 2021 by Piperita
Added pictures

[Lbsaligh]

37 minutes ago, Piperita said:

I recently started this kind of 3-4-3 as well. It was my favourite formation back at the other FM and I wanted to have a quick test to see if it translates; now that the WCB is on the horizon, I need some baseline for comparison ^^

[Pictures to follow once I'm out of the office]

The roles I chose were
__SKd----CDd, CDd, CDd----RGAs, VOLs---WMs, WMS---Ta---PFa, PFs

Individual instructions:
__Outer CD: Stay Wider. They also both have "Brings Ball out of Defense"
__RGA:  Tackle Harder. PPM to drop deep. If I play against heavy presses, I switch him for a DLPs
__VOLs: Forward, Tackle Harder
__WMs: Forward, Stay Wider, Cross Less Often, Tackle Harder

Team Instructions:
--Play out of Defense
--[Counter] --> This adds a good 5 to 8 shots a game but with less accuracy. Perfect for my team but a risk if only few players have the finishing
--Much Higher Defensive Line
--Offside Trap
--Force inside
--More Urgent Pressing

General idea:
The team is compact in midfield and makes it hard to break down if the wingers and defenders have the speed advantage. The Pressing Forwards harass the backline until they either make a mistake (and with the other striker, a free-flowing playmaker, and the two wingers bombing forwards, there are lots of early passing options) or play a long ball that is easy to pick up for the five at the back and WM. If something goes over? They first have the trap and then the speed and space to intercept the opposition. If they try to play through the defense? It is a solid block in the middle and if they go wide the centre is packed with big strong boys and the WM and outer CD and/or DM also challenge whenever they try to cut inside late.

Both strikers also balance the Trequartista who presses and tackles less urgently but absolutely dominates the spaces given to him by the formation. His biggest strength however? Moving into the channels between fullback and centreback and making way for the wingers to run down the line or cut inside. Or to occupy the DM enough for the Volante to arrive late for a long shot.

Findings about PPM
--I have two PFa currently in my squad:
_____My reserve striker came with the combination of "Likes Ball played into Feet" and "Tries First Time Shots" is an absolute beast from the bench. Low crosses from the WM on his side and through balls from the Ta come directly at his feet and he immediately goes for the shot. Against tired opponents he scores quite well, despite being stock-average otherwise. If I bred some players that have even better movement and first touch? Or are adept at using both feet? A great option to have and as this player uses only few headers and dribbles not that much? Two strong dump stats
_____My main striker is a poor man's Haaland. Not quite so fast. Not quite as strong at finishing. But a little bit taller and blessed(?) with the playmaker PPM of trying to pass instead of shooting and dictating tempo. Which makes him quite unique: He gets a lot of headers from the crosses the WM and Ta offer him and he gets enough chances to score. But when a counter is in progress and he comes from the side, he doesn't do the classical move of cutting inside or shooting with his bad foot, he instead makes flat passes to the players rushing forwards.

--For the PFs I see little difference whether or not he has "Plays with back to goal". They both have roughly the same stats. Which is a shame because I wanted him to set the WM and Ta into motion. What made a difference however was to tell him to shoot with power. This really buffs his long shots that get on target and make them a danger, both directly and from rebounds.

--The Ta is a role with so much liberty, that a player with good flair and mentals can probably be left alone. Alas, my two options already come with some "baggage". One has the nice combination of "One-Twos", "Comes Deep" and "Gets into Area". Which makes him highly mobile and lets him dominate the entire midfield area and often arrive at precisely the right moment around the box. But when not countering and instead building up normally, he clashes with the Regista at times and there is a hole in the front that makes attacks either slow or predictable. The other Ta just has "Killer Balls" and "Gets Forward More Often". As Ta he still roams freely in midfield to receive the ball but he then tends to be less show-offy, instead dribbling free and either passing or shooting directly.

--Both outer CD desperately need "Brings Ball out of Defense". Even as CD this makes them exploit the spaces left on the flanks.

Skills needed
--The WM are key. I often use Wingbacks here because they tend to be fast, have good movement in both offense and defense and, this is key, they know how to tackle. They don't necessarily need a speed advantage over the opposition because there is still a big block behind them, but they should never be completely outclassed and should have at least one way to stop them. Be it through tackles or movement is secondary. Unless I have two towers in the centre, crossing is secondary as low cross-passes or cutbacks to the Ta are often the better weapons. Dribbling is nice to have but when they have it, they should be quicker and have great balance/agility -- losses of possession hurt them a lot!
--The Central Defenders however must be quick and mentally fit. The Offside Trap must work and they are tasked to sweep up long balls and to follow whoever gets through.
--I like both my DM to be relatively complete offensively. Movement, long shots, AND Vision/Passing make them hard to counter because they can arrive late, shoot from distance, or play some tricky balls. Corresponding PPM and switching positions can further help them there. Defensively my main focus is strength and tackling as well as healthy Aggressiveness/Bravery.

Results and usual matches
I went through the preseason, first round of the cup and two qualifying rounds of the EuroLeague with hardly any shot on target faced. Usually it ended something like 2,45 to 0,13. Weaker teams got obliterated and teams on my level or slightly higher couldn't get through and were defeated on the counter. Repeatedly.

At the Bundesliga though? First match I made the mistake to not factor in that Leverkusen has really, really fast wingers. This resulted in two early mistakes costing me and after ten minutes I was 0-2 down. It resulted in a really fun 4-3 and an amazing effort by the offense but defensively there were holes!

The next games were easy results with lots of goals and even though the defense allowed little throughout most of the match, they made a few big mistakes and after leads of two to three goals were achieved, often the got complacent and in the span of a few minutes the opposition's xG went from a respectable 0,2 to something like 0,9. Or they managed to score a quick one completely out of nowhere. I hope that with better CD and some heavy mentoring there will be more solidity!

Where the formations shines the most though? Weirdly enough whenever one player gets send of and I play with the Regista centrally and the VOLs out. Once the opposition opens up as result, the counters are absolutely deadly!

That is an interesting write-up and can’t wait to see some pictures. I may give this a try and see how it performs!

[LPQR]

@LbsalighBMG 3-4-3.fmfcheck it out here - bear in mind that from time to time i used opposition instructions to mark tighter on opponents IF/IWs 

@Piperita loved the write-up and specifically the part about PPMs - I think it's something ever so overlooked by the majority of FM players, mainly how much of a difference it can make in terms of how a player interprets the role according to their PPMs

[LPQR]

I'm thinking of testing my 3-4-3 variation with 2 AMs on a new team, do you guys have any suggestions for which team you want to see the test on?

[halfspace3000]

21 hours ago, LPQR said:

I'm thinking of testing my 3-4-3 variation with 2 AMs on a new team, do you guys have any suggestions for which team you want to see the test on?

chelsea or Atletico Madrid

[Piperita]

I added some pictures and pictures to my last post. The last round was even better than the previous ones :)

On 13/10/2021 at 19:25, LPQR said:

I'm thinking of testing my 3-4-3 variation with 2 AMs on a new team, do you guys have any suggestions for which team you want to see the test on?

If you want to play weaker teams, SC Freiburg from the Bundesliga.

--They have good enough pace (but sadly not that great acceleration) for the tactic in key positions.
--Grifo is a fine AM with a partner at his side: He has the long shots AND passing AND set pieces to be a constant danger and his partner can mask his speed deficits.
--Santamaria is a well-rounded DM/MC with offensive movement and with enough defensive partners to cover for him.
--There are three different striker types: One cold converter, one pressing forward who can also be retrained as offensive AM (as partner for Grifo) or Right Winger (where the struggle the most because the researchers hate Sallai :(), and a well-balanced one with room to grow. So options for whatever direction you want to grow.

For midclass teams I could imagine Leverkusen. They have the speed. They have the recklessness. They have the stamina. Might need one more speedy defender or two but otherwise? A bit riskier than usual but in terms of offensive potential probably comparable to the big Bayern with the available players.

[LPQR]

3 hours ago, halfspace3000 said:

chelsea or Atletico Madrid

That would be too easy although it could be a lot of fun to watch judging by what i'm seeing in my test

58 minutes ago, Piperita said:

I added some pictures and pictures to my last post. The last round was even better than the previous ones

If you want to play weaker teams, SC Freiburg from the Bundesliga.

--They have good enough pace (but sadly not that great acceleration) for the tactic in key positions.
--Grifo is a fine AM with a partner at his side: He has the long shots AND passing AND set pieces to be a constant danger and his partner can mask his speed deficits.
--Santamaria is a well-rounded DM/MC with offensive movement and with enough defensive partners to cover for him.
--There are three different striker types: One cold converter, one pressing forward who can also be retrained as offensive AM (as partner for Grifo) or Right Winger (where the struggle the most because the researchers hate Sallai :(), and a well-balanced one with room to grow. So options for whatever direction you want to grow.

For midclass teams I could imagine Leverkusen. They have the speed. They have the recklessness. They have the stamina. Might need one more speedy defender or two but otherwise? A bit riskier than usual but in terms of offensive potential probably comparable to the big Bayern with the available players.

Interesting suggestion, Grifo looks like a lovely fantasista too. I might give them a go depending on the direction that further tests will take. For now I have opted for Bologna in serie A as I'm a bit fed up with Bundesliga and especially how overpowered Haaland is 

The stats look really really good btw! Mind sharing a screenshot of your set-up? For some reason I find it hard to visualize the dynamics otherwise and I'm curious how you interpreted the formation

[LPQR]

OP updated with new post

[LPQR]

Brought myself together and finished the season with Atletico Pamplona

The key match of the season was a destruction of Real Madrid

 

topped the charts with the most clear cut chances created, most possession and fewest shots conceded

[gokalpcakir1]

What are the PIs on your 2amc tactic?

Edited October 20, 2021 by gokalpcakir1
ss

[LPQR]

14 hours ago, gokalpcakir1 said:

What are the PIs on your 2amc tactic?

there you go, I also use tight marking and show onto weaker foot opposition instructions for AMR and AML positions

Bologna 343 variation.fmf

[davehibb]

@LPQRawesome as always mate and some fantastic contributions by everyone else too!

A thoroughly enjoyable read!

[ramie]

I wonder how this translates onto fm22. I suppose you would select wide cb roles

[Piperita]

1 hour ago, ramie said:

I wonder how this translates onto fm22. I suppose you would select wide cb roles

Hard to tell right now. I haven't found the time to start my eugenics training programm to get the right kind of players for my version of the tactic, so I can't say i definitely but so far my experience is that the WCB needs some tweaking to be an upgrade to the old mold of "role+PI+PPM".

The defense duty is the only one that stays on line with the central defender. But the hardcoded "Cross from Deep" sometimes hurts because it triggers early, bypassing some defensive buildup. I guess with some longer training and better players, it could wirk rather well though, especially with central, moving playmakers attracting the ball. But like I said, I couldn't train that so far :(

The support is pretty well tweakable and is quite fun. Sadly, they don't help an offside trap. But on the flipside: "Play from the back" and some good late movement or recycling or long balls.

As for the attack version: For me the best combination so far is to combine it with a strong defensive support in the DM area. For my old tactic a DLPd was barely enough containment (had to put the forward movement off the WM as well against better teams) and for more classic formations a IWBd was quite nice!

[LPQR]

4 hours ago, ramie said:

I wonder how this translates onto fm22. I suppose you would select wide cb roles

I have run a test with the AM version with Sassuolo on the beta. The major observations so far are:

1) HB interaction with the D-line is much improved and 'the drop' finally happens as it should

2) WCB is a totally different kettle of fish of a role and @Piperita summed the main pros and cons up nicely above. For me, the fact that they push up the field so much meant I could switch WM from support to attack, however I don't get the same balance I had before because of the hard-coded behavior of the WCB.

3) Opponents are exploiting the half-spaces a lot more than in the previous match engine

4) Central play is hugely down-graded and wing-play is enhanced. We only have around 50-60% of the penetration rate through the middle compared to the previous ME and shadow runs are much better anticipated and marked by opponents.

5) down-graded conversion rate. experiencing a shocking number of missed 1to1 chances (players like Berardi should be really taking at least 50% of those chances). I'm talking 14 1to1 situations missed in 4 matches.

6) off-side trap not as efficient as in previous ME

We are in January now and sitting 2nd in the table with Sassuolo but what I see on the pitch is a distant shadow of the same system in the previous ME. In fact, we'd probably be mid-table if not for goals from crosses.

Its still beta, early days for the ME to be considered final but I really hope I can see my strikers taking at least some of their chances, otherwise it's a bit too frustrating for now.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ramie]

I will be interesting to see what tweaks you and @Piperita make to your systems. I don't run systems like this but I love to read and learn about other systems. Keep up the good work.

[VinceLombardi]

18 hours ago, LPQR said:

 

3) Opponents are exploiting the half-spaces a lot more than in the previous match engine

4) Central play is hugely down-graded and wing-play is enhanced. We only have around 50-60% of the penetration rate through the middle compared to the previous ME and shadow runs are much better anticipated and marked by opponents.

5) down-graded conversion rate. experiencing a shocking number of missed 1to1 chances (players like Berardi should be really taking at least 50% of those chances). I'm talking 14 1to1 situations missed in 4 matches.

We are in January now and sitting 2nd in the table with Sassuolo but what I see on the pitch is a distant shadow of the same system in the previous ME. In fact, we'd probably be mid-table if not for goals from crosses.

Its still beta, early days for the ME to be considered final but I really hope I can see my strikers taking at least some of their chances, otherwise it's a bit too frustrating for now.

Yeah, I'm going to make a bit of a too-early-hot-take here, but I don't think this system is going to be a good match for this match engine. Definitely expect that we are going to have the most success(or at least the less frustration) with systems built around wing play and single strikers (or strikerless) ala FM19-20. I'm going to dust off some of my FM19 stuff and use it as the starting point for my FM22 tactics rather than starting with my FM21 stuff.

Hopefully, I'm wrong and it can be resolved in patches, but I'm not holding my breath. 

Edited October 24, 2021 by VinceLombardi

[bowieinspace]

On 24/10/2021 at 08:09, LPQR said:

I have run a test with the AM version with Sassuolo on the beta. The major observations so far are:

1) HB interaction with the D-line is much improved and 'the drop' finally happens as it should

2) WCB is a totally different kettle of fish of a role and @Piperita summed the main pros and cons up nicely above. For me, the fact that they push up the field so much meant I could switch WM from support to attack, however I don't get the same balance I had before because of the hard-coded behavior of the WCB.

3) Opponents are exploiting the half-spaces a lot more than in the previous match engine

4) Central play is hugely down-graded and wing-play is enhanced. We only have around 50-60% of the penetration rate through the middle compared to the previous ME and shadow runs are much better anticipated and marked by opponents.

5) down-graded conversion rate. experiencing a shocking number of missed 1to1 chances (players like Berardi should be really taking at least 50% of those chances). I'm talking 14 1to1 situations missed in 4 matches.

6) off-side trap not as efficient as in previous ME

We are in January now and sitting 2nd in the table with Sassuolo but what I see on the pitch is a distant shadow of the same system in the previous ME. In fact, we'd probably be mid-table if not for goals from crosses.

Its still beta, early days for the ME to be considered final but I really hope I can see my strikers taking at least some of their chances, otherwise it's a bit too frustrating for now.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think the key with this system within the beta match engine comes down to how you are able to set the team up to defend the wide areas. Attacking wise, yes play does tend to default into crosses from wide areas, so from the point of view of your own attack, creating overloads in the middle with two AMCs/CF's in whatever combo you find suitable is fairly manageable...you just need to make sure in the attacking phase that two of them are pushing high and into the channels, with your wide players overloading on the outside to create that ball across the box. It's a fairly straightforward match engine in terms of how to create chances (that's not to say it's straightforward for the player as such, but just in terms of the match engine encouraging one particular approach).

The struggle I have had is more about how to create the robust defensive shape against teams playing aggressive wide systems - either 4-4-2 with two attacking wide midfielders, wingers etc, or a 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 where the main threat is from wide, e.g. inside forwards, raumdeuters etc. Without wing backs or full backs, the back 3 can get overloaded, pulled to one side and then there's a free ball to the back post. With the match engine favouring that particular move, it happens quite often.

I've experimented with a few ways to do this - the movement of the half back makes it a little easier, but I think reducing overall team mentality to standard (to suck the WM's deeper in the defensive phase), reducing high press slightly and compressing the verticality of the defensive shape are important. By making the team more compact, it pushes the double pivot into the defensive lines area, and starts to force the defensive line wider (especially when paired with the force opposition inside instruction). I have also found success by setting the WM's to man mark the opposition wide forwards (4-3-3/4-2-3-1) or wide midfielders (in a 4-4-2). I've set my DM's to tight mark as well and press aggressively to create something of a trap when the play gets played in the central areas in attack. 

A lot of work to do on this within this current match engine for sure