Tactical revelations with VFB Stuttgart

[LPQR]

Hi all, in this thread I will post any tactical ideas or 'revelations' that I come across in my career thread with Stuttgart  To start with, Here's a system I managed to put together that brought some great success with der VfB. 

Tactical revelations

So, my computer crashed and I had to start the season again. I thought I'd implement something different this time, and after considering the players I have at my disposal I decided to implement a very fluid system with a 3-4-1-2 base shape

Main issues considered

- My fullbacks are decent but far from world-beaters 

- I have a lot of talented DM's, and most of them have high workrate, stamina and strength

- I have the best defensive trio in the league with Orban, Hesse and Grunenberg, and it would be a shame to leave one of them on the bench

- Same goes for the attacking trio of Eggestein, Avdijaj and Rapp, although using Rapp as a shadow striker allows me to exploit his creative prowess in midfield

- There's plenty of strength, pace, work rate, stamina and tactical intelligence in the squad to be playing deep, absorbing the pressure and create quick transitions

- I have a shortage of wide, winger-style players, Gnabry being the only one that stands out

 

*the left midfielder cuts inside and is more of a defensive playmaker

*right midfielder attacks the wide space

*normal defensive line so that we can exploit our speedy midfielders

*two DM's - both physically astute,  one of them them running forward to support attacks, the other sitting deep and dictating tempo

*maximized width so we do not concede the flanks too much 

*very fluid shape for compactness, creativity and team-play

Half season results:

 

Best defence, best attack, still going strong in all competitions and some amazing player performances:

Attacking trio

                                                                                                                                                                                              apps   gls  ass   mom

say what you want, but 33 goals and 8 assists by December is pretty impressive
 

Overall

 

Let's see where this gets us this season  

 

I will make a few points about how important it is that you figure out how you want to/can play and adjust accordingly. I notice a lot of people thinking any tactic could work with any team or any team can play any style of football, which I believe to be the reason for their struggles. At the end of the day, if football would be that simple it wouldn't actually exists in its current competitive form. It's a very complex game with infinite amount of variables, however the one thing that you can or have to do as a football manager is know how you will play.

 And when I say that I don't mean being 100% sure from the start about each movement you want your players to make, everybody adjusts and learns along the way exactly because of the complexity of the game that i mentioned earlier on. You're bound to be faced with unknown scenarios in the game one way or the other. The one thing that you can do is analyse your squad, try to understand the parameters of the tactical creator and what options it gives you and then come up with a solution to implement an idea. For example, team shape is a key thing in this FM I believe as it influences pretty much every aspect of how you play. So it's important that you understand the implications of playing a flexible or fluid approach before deciding which one to use. With the team above, employing a very fluid shape makes sense because I have very all-rounded players and a lot of what they do on the pitch is more down to their own talent rather than my specific tactical instructions. However, that is an instruction in itself! It is a decision you have to make whether you want your players to be free in making those decisions or not. My advice is to not tick things left and right and expect for a magical cocktail, keep it simple and, most importantly, make sure you can observe and understand the results of your decisions!  

so, key question:

What are your squad characteristics?

so, let's say you have good to excellent players, let's say defenders that can pass the ball 7 out of 10 times and midfielders that can tackle successfully 7 out of 10 times, which is how I would describe my squad at the moment. This enables me to focus on a style of play that involves much more fluidity in player movement. I have decided to field my strongest 11 and see which one performs best in which position and how I can fit it all into a system.

 - So I have 3 CB's that can do a decent job on the ball, one of them slower than the other two, who have 15 for acceleration and 13/14 for pace. This means playing a back three should not be problematic as the 2 side CB's are quick enough to cover a lot of ground on both the wide and central areas of the pitch. Additionally, they are tactically intelligent enough to cover for each other and again, quick enough to come back to a central position from a wide position(for example challenging an opposition winger). 

- I have 4 DM's in the squad that are very strong, fast, hard working and good in individual duels. This enables me to have them deep enough to protect the backline and rely on their speed to support the team high up enough in transitions. The choice of roles is tied to a different issue: the overall style of play. So I have a normal defensive line and a standard mentality and a normal tempo, which means I will usually sit pretty deep and absorb pressure looking for an opportunity to either break away at speed or build up play in a favourable area (pass into space TI). Anyway, this is what I want. Why? Because:

- I have Rapp  (16Acc 18Pac), Gnabry(17Acc 16Pac), Eggestein(15Acc 14Pac) and Avdijaj (16Acc 13Pac) that are all really quick players with good dribbling that can break away at speed as well as having high attributes off the ball which means they are intelligent enough to find space and exploit it. 

- So why DLP(D) and RPM(S) for the DM's? I decided I want two playmaking roles that will decide how the transition unfolds from deep. There are mainly two scenarios: We win the ball back and the DLP is responsible for picking up that long ball that opens up space or the RPM drives forward with the ball looking to initiate a more dynamic attack. I do not want any playmaking roles in the final third as that disrupts the flow of the movement, as players will look to pass to the playmaker even if another player is in a better position to pass to. 

- Naturally, in this system, I would rely a lot on the work-rate and stamina of the 2 wide players to cover the wide areas. Luckily, both at my disposal have really good attributes there. However, I decided that it would still be too risky to solely rely on those two, so I adapted the tactic to ease off the pressure on them. How? I maximized the team width. How does that help? It means that when the team is defending we have a bank of 5 players defending looking like this:

Here you can see my RPM challenging Atletico's forward for the ball whil the DLP marks the other forward while covering the space between the LCB and CB. You can also notice that the RCB and LCB are wide enough to challenge the wide players if needed (that is if the LWM and RWM fail in challenging or marking them), and the space they leave is covered by the two DM's, both instructed to tackle hard and mark tightly.

The Very Fluid team shape also plays a big part in how this system works. It's effect on this particular aspect of play(defending) is obvious: look at how close the lines are to each other. The team is very compact and allows little space to the oposition.

- The Shadow Striker and why is it working so well in this system: Matthias Rapp is a player I picked up when he was 15 and developed him in what many believe to be the finest German player of his generation. 
 

- notice the high work rate and the good tackling and marking stats

- Comes Deep to Get the Ball PPM

The combination of these factors play a decisive role in how Rapp interprets the SS role. In defensive situations he will come deep and help the midfield(see picture above) while his speed helps him transition quickly in attack and join the two forwards in no time.

- what I mean by adapting and suiting your system to the players you have: If I didn't have a player like Rapp I would have probably gone for a CM(A) in the midfield strata. This could turn out to be a viable solution if your side is weaker as well, as that would solidify the defense with a bank of 5 midfielders in the defensive stage of play. Additionally, if my 2 DM's wouldn't be so good in both challenging for posession and creating play I would probably have to change their roles and the whole idea of the system would change as a result.

Off the ball and passing are also very important in this kind of system, as a very fluid shape means the team relies on the player's ability to fill in for each other's positions and not waste passes when in critical situations. Overall stamina, work rate, good tactical attributes(anticipation, decisions, concentration) of the players also play a massive part in it as I rely on the players ability to cover ground due to the width mentioned earlier on. 

Also, my left midfielder cuts inside, and if he wasn't as technically gifted as the WM's I've got at my disposal I would probably instruct the team to exploit the right flank. I have opted not to for two reasons: one of them is the one above and the second is because I rely on the overall tactical intelligence of my team to 'pass into space' correctly, i.e. I leave the decision whether to exploit one side of the pitch or the other to their ability to read the game and interpret the right call. An overall weaker squad might struggle with that.

See how it's all interconected?

 

Link to part II - Adapting

Link to part III - Bringing back the Libero

[herne79]

Well done, 3412 can be pretty tricky to get right .

(PS, please mind the language in this forum ).

[LPQR]

10 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Well done, 3412 can be pretty tricky to get right .

(PS, please mind the language in this forum ).

I'll blame it on enthusiasm and bow to the concept of civilization

Thanks, to be fair I have a really strong squad, however I tried various systems, 4-3-1-2, 4-4-2 and none seem to be as successful. I still believe the best way to to actually get a tactical system right is to exploit the strengths of the team and minimize how much the opposition exploit the weaknesses. Might sound a bit obvious and of course, there are a lot of other things that go into it, but, personally, that's the only way I've managed to get decent to good results in this game: strategically understanding the squad's attributes and how you can play as a result.

[cfkllasdfaslkdfj]

LPQR, please tell us what types of players are needed for this tactic, as well as how to modify it under certain situations when the opponent is stronger, or I have lower class players?

[LPQR]

On 9/30/2016 at 08:16, cfkllasdfaslkdfj said:

LPQR, please tell us what types of players are needed for this tactic, as well as how to modify it under certain situations when the opponent is stronger, or I have lower class players?

update in OP should answer your question

 

 

[LPQR]

OP updated

[LPQR]

Tactical musings - part II

So, about adapting,  for example, last season and in the early stage of this season I was faced with an injury/lack of squad depth crisis in the striking department

I've decided to switch the tactic to something like this

 

- the new formation changes the dynamics of play so adjustments are necessary

- 'cut inside' instruction is removed for the left midfielder as Rapp has been pushed to the left and occupies that area of the pitch, additionally this allows Hoxha to make more runs out wide and explore his pace 

- the AM is given a support duty because he has three players around him making runs from deep out of which two with attack duties. This is actually very important, because an absolutely key part of my tactical set-up was analyising the support/attack roles and how they're distributed on the pitch in relation to how the player's roles and instructions make them move

- Gnabry is now able to stay a bit wider because the AM, Besuschkow covers enough defensive ground to ease off that responsibility on him

- the RPM is now able to make an impact in the advanced areas of the field, with the AM holding up the ball while he overlaps him with his speedy runs from deep for both him and the RW

- the CF, Eggestein is playing with a support duty because he has two players 'moving into channels' in behind him that could break the opposition defense if given the right pass. In the previous system that was the job of the F9 and with the AM now sitting much deeper, Eggestein has to be given that task. Speaking about inter-connectivity, this example is a great one because at the end of the day, the thought that I've focused on while making these instructions is how the team will play or how the system will work rather than on individuals. One might be inclined that a striker on support duty is 'less attacking' but hey, football is not an individual's game, especially in a very fluid system. So, how did he fare in the new system so far?

 

not too bad

overall team performance until December?

 

 not too bad

[LPQR]

Just a quick update on the success I've had with this system in my Stuttgart all-German career

June 2022 - Total Overview

Overall career stats

                                                                                          Season 15/16 - 2.Bundesliga Champions

                                                                                          Season 16/17 - Bundesliga 3rd place, German Cup winners

                                                                                          Season 17/18 - Bundesliga Champions, German Cup winners, German Super Cup winners, CL - knocked out in first round

                                                                                          Season 18/19 - Bundesliga Champions, German Cup winners, CL - knocked out in quarter final

                                                                                          Season 19/20 - Bundesliga Champions, German Cup winners, CL - knocked out in semi final

                                                                                          Season 20/21 - Bundesliga Champions, German Cup Winners, Champions League winners 

                                                                                          Season 21/22 - Bundesliga Champions, German Cup semi-final, CL - knocked out in group stage, Europa League Winners,

                                                                                                                   Club World Championship winners, German Super Cup winners, Uefa Super Cup winners

[LPQR]

Tactical musings part III - Bringing back the Libero

another piece I think is worthy of a write-up is my successful attempt at integrating a Libero in my system

so the tactic I used in my team for nearly 6 seasons now is pretty much exactly the same as the one in the OP, with minor changes on player instructions on the left WM and the central defender. Having brought back to the club a player that I trained in my academy, I've stumbled upon the issue of how to integrate him in my system.

Meet Benjamin Gallus

*I could play him at either RCB or DM(roaming playmaker) in my current system

*He wouldn't be amazing in either roles, as he lacks balance and jumping reach to be a central defender

and his first touch and technique are not more than okay for a RPM

*his best position and the most suited for his attributes is RB, which I don't use in my tactic since I play with a back three

*one thing that he excels in is speed. Lots of speed, work-rate, vision, passing, long shots and some great tactical intelligence

Okay, so the idea was to re-train him as a libero, as he is extremely well suited for that role, as the above screenshot highlights. Given that a member of my back three is getting older and will probably decline in his attributes in the next year, I decide to  shift my tactical approach to suit Gallus and slowly mould him as the leader of my back-line. Even at 21 years of age, he is one of my best players in the squad and it looks like he could improve even further. So, here is the new set-up:

*changed the DLP(D) to a HB(D)

*instructed the HB to mark tighter

*instructed the Libero to dribble less

 

so this how the team will look to move from a defensive shape         and this what the team looks like when in attacking shape

  

*the idea of the new system is to create extra pressure in midfield by having the libero acting as a roaming playmaker starting from deep. as the half back pushes forward as well when the team is in possession, and the left midfielder cuts inside, this creates a big numerical advantage in the central area of the pitch with players performing different movements and pulling defenders out of position in a very fluid system that allows plenty of movement:

-the half back and the libero will regularly swap positions depending on who is better positioned to defend/mark/receive a pass/press forward

- the WM has 'cuts inside instruction' but alternates with the CF in occasionally drifting out wide

- the SS and F9 will alternate positions in dropping deep or making a run forward

- the right WM will sit narrower to help the team when in possession, but will make a run wide when space opens up

So, essentially we would have 7/8 players in the opposition area when attacking, something looking like this

 

*the players PPM's play a massive part in why this system works as it does and is set-up as it is. The best example would be my CF's PPM's to cut inside from the left wing and come deep to get the ball. As the attacking move unfolds, he will drift to the left side of the pitch, creating width and allowing the left WM to cut inside and either support the three players on the right attacking the box or have a go at goal himself. The CF also comes deep to get the ball leaving space behind him for the SS, the F9 or the right WM to explore when they are in more advanced positions.

* as we employ a standard mentality coupled with a normal defensive line, when in defensive situations, our players sit pretty deep and we usually have 6-7 players behind the ball, and sometimes even 8 when the Shadow striker (who has a 'comes deep to get the ball' PPM) drops deep in midfield to pick up the ball and challenge opposition players. Below you can see how my team looks like having just won back possession from the opposition after a successful challenge by the HB:

-notice how deep my wide midfielders are, they are practically positioned as wing-backs

 

 

-a similar defensive situation. in three or four seconds after recovering the ball, our WM's are already much higher up the pitch, however you can still notice the 5 man defensive core.

from left to right: LCB, HB, Libero, RPM, RCB

 

- Example of Libero alternating with half back: usually our Libero is positioned in a more advanced area than the HB in attacking transitions, however in this attacking move the libero stays deeper while the HB makes a run forward due to him being in a better position to explore space and press forward. this will, in turn, allow the left midfielder to run wide and explore that space as the HB will have already covered the central area where he usually attacks

 

the team can position itself in a number of formations, depending the situation. for example, in this situation both our HB and Libero stay a bit deeper to mark the opposition forwards and we look like a 4-2-3-1. In this screenshot you can also notice the CF drifting out wide to the left.

 

defensive situation where we are being hit on the counter after losing possession high up the pitch. the speed of the Libero as well as the half back's and centre-backs' allow the team to get back into a defensive position quickly

the screenshot above illustrates another advantage that congesting the midfield area with the help of the libero brings:

*counterpress: notice that we have 6 players who are already in front of their opponents and are better positioned to intercept any balls that an opposition player might try to feed his on-running team-mates in their attacking build-up. In this specific move, Rapp succesfully challenges Petit, the opposition player looking to initiate the counter movement and our team is already high up the pitch enough to transition back into attack without having to cover too much space

 

example of player congestion in midfield

*in this specific move you can see Gallus(libero), Rapp (shadow striker) and Henrichs(RPM) forming a trident in midfield, that forces the opposition to commit men to challenge them. As a result, they only have 4 players defending our 4 players attacking the box. Gallus feeds the ball to Eggestein (CF), a whole block of 4 Bayern players is too high up pressing to react or track back in time and the CF has three three players providing options and making runs next to him: the right WM, the F9 and the left WM

 

So here is the final result against Bayern(most of the above screenshots where during this match):

 

and our form since changing the system*

*the match against Tottenham we fielded a rotated team and I tried to use a DLP(D) instead of a HB. obviously failed)

 

Issues to consider

- this system is working because of a very intelligent set of players in a very fluid system, as I rely on them to judge the situation and make the best decision

- both my libero and half-back are two physically astute players with very good speed and ability to read the game. Gallus' screenshot has been posted above, this is my Half-Back

- notice positioning, vision, work rate, pace and overall tactical attributes

- studying your players' ppm's thoroughly and understanding the movement that creates on the pitch is crucial, especially in a very fluid system

- all of the above mentioned points play a great role in how the team defends, transitions and attacks per general

- the libero's speed, physique, technical and tactical ability are all key to this system

[mikcheck]

This is some really good and interesting thread and how you've changed the way you play. You've completely dominated bayern in that game.

Dont you find your 3 defenders stay too narrow because the use of the libero? Also it's curious i always thought that HB role only works when you use a normal 4 man defense and he is in DMC position, not DMCL or DMCL. But it's working fine for you!

[davehibb]

Great post!

Very interesting how the system is evolving and an insightful breakdown of all the working parts that makes it so formidable.

You're either a genius mate or a mad scientist... Or a bit of both!

[LPQR]

2 hours ago, mikcheck said:

This is some really good and interesting thread and how you've changed the way you play. You've completely dominated bayern in that game.

Dont you find your 3 defenders stay too narrow because the use of the libero? Also it's curious i always thought that HB role only works when you use a normal 4 man defense and he is in DMC position, not DMCL or DMCL. But it's working fine for you!

I will post a more detailed update soon focusing on the whys and hows of that. But yeah, the answer to your question is a key area of focus in this system  

1 hour ago, davehibb said:

You're either a genius mate or a mad scientist... Or a bit of both!

*inserts received compliment in the 'truths that I'm scared of' folder*

[Ghents]

I am loving the look of the Libero tactic. I played about 5 seasons with Torino with a sweeper and once you learn the quirks of how the sweeper spot interacts it can be real fun. Will definitely look to try something similar to this in FM17. I always tried to avoid playmakers in the DM/CM strata with a Libero because it kind of washed them out, but it looks like you're essentially looking for him to be more of a deeper DLP-D and combine with the HB/CB to make a pseudo back 4, so that actually really works.

[LPQR]

3 hours ago, Ghents said:

I always tried to avoid playmakers in the DM/CM strata with a Libero because it kind of washed them out, but it looks like you're essentially looking for him to be more of a deeper DLP-D and combine with the HB/CB to make a pseudo back 4, so that actually really works.

my thinking behind that specific defensive set up was based on a few issues:

- creating variety in the way the team controls the space from deep: as mentioned above, the half back and the libero will alternate their defensive/attacking/supporting responsibilities and that creates a source of surprise for the opposition. 

- creating different positional situations on the pitch: sometimes we will have 5 men acting as a back-line, especially when we are in our normal defensive position. sometimes we will have a back 4, when both the Libero and the Half back stay deep but the RPM runs forward. sometimes we will have three men, when both the half back and the RPM venture forward and the libero covers for them, staying deep between the two CB's. sometimes only two, wehn both the libero and the half-back run forward to support attacks and the RPM is already in a more advanced position than both of them . this creates different options in how the play unfolds from deep as well as how we defend/attack space

- having the HB and Libero push higher up to maintain pressure when the team is in possession in the opposition area as well as breaking the opposition's counter-attacks high up the pitch, using his intelligent reading of the game and speed to intercept opposition's direct passes

- the Libero peforms a number of duties, including that of a deep passing option that a DLP would provide, however his mark on the game is far more complex as he is involved in many more phases of the game

-using the players at my disposal to influence the most possible areas of play in roles that make them use their best attributes

As mentioned above, I will come back later with a more detailed post which will include thoughts about variety and how important I think it is

[Anaconda Vice]

Are there any particular PI's you have used or are they stock roles except for the few PI's you mention?

The systems look great and definitely something I want to look at in FM16 while I wait for some things to be fixed in FM17

[LPQR]

26 minutes ago, Anaconda Vice said:

Are there any particular PI's you have used or are they stock roles except for the few PI's you mention?

The systems look great and definitely something I want to look at in FM16 while I wait for some things to be fixed in FM17

unfortunately, i will not go into those details for two reasons: one, this thread is about tactical concept development and discussion. second, the PI's are a result of the players available and how the team can play as a result. I have mentioned this repeatedly in the above posts and I expect the level of detail provided should be enough to enable anyone to develop a similar system or concept. If not, I'm afraid I'm not one to share tactics as that kills the point of having an educated discussion 

[Ghents]

2 hours ago, LPQR said:

my thinking behind that specific defensive set up was based on a few issues:

- creating variety in the way the team controls the space from deep: as mentioned above, the half back and the libero will alternate their defensive/attacking/supporting responsibilities and that creates a source of surprise for the opposition. 

- creating different positional situations on the pitch: sometimes we will have 5 men acting as a back-line, especially when we are in our normal defensive position. sometimes we will have a back 4, when both the Libero and the Half back stay deep but the RPM runs forward. sometimes we will have three men, when both the half back and the RPM venture forward and the libero covers for them, staying deep between the two CB's. sometimes only two, wehn both the libero and the half-back run forward to support attacks and the RPM is already in a more advanced position than both of them . this creates different options in how the play unfolds from deep as well as how we defend/attack space

- having the HB and Libero push higher up to maintain pressure when the team is in possession in the opposition area as well as breaking the opposition's counter-attacks high up the pitch, using his intelligent reading of the game and speed to intercept opposition's direct passes

- the Libero peforms a number of duties, including that of a deep passing option that a DLP would provide, however his mark on the game is far more complex as he is involved in many more phases of the game

-using the players at my disposal to influence the most possible areas of play in roles that make them use their best attributes

As mentioned above, I will come back later with a more detailed post which will include thoughts about variety and how important I think it is

Yep, it is definitely a very dynamic role. I was more speaking from how I typically used Libero's. It's not going to be the dribble up the center of the pitch and smash home a goal in the top corner like people are used to from FM13 etc., but as you've seen if you have a specific idea in mind for the position, it can be super valuable.

I am definitely following the progress of this, however. I like that you're making the tactic dynamic in the fact that the build up can come from just about anywhere. That's an issue where I often run into after a few seasons is that teams know what to isolate and take away and them I'm stuck fidgeting with the settings/roles to break them down.

As you mentioned, the halfback and Libero can kind of exploit/man those gaps of space that are usually the no-man's land and instead pick up the ball and re-initiate an attack.

On your next update can you take a screenshot of the 2D look? I'm curious the position of the "back 4" in both defense, transition, and attack. My issue was always the Libero at times seemed to get in the way of the CBs on long balls or in the box on crosses.

[LPQR]

22 minutes ago, Ghents said:

On your next update can you take a screenshot of the 2D look? I'm curious the position of the "back 4" in both defense, transition, and attack. My issue was always the Libero at times seemed to get in the way of the CBs on long balls or in the box on crosses.

done

[Ghents]

Awesome. I'm planning a Bilbao save in FM17 and I wanted to do something a little unique to set them apart further than just Basque players, and was thinking of carrying over my sweeper tactic, but this is intriguing to potentially mold to their squad. They're also a bit light on fullbacks and I'd need to really rely on mediocre fullbacks, or just play to their strength with the attacking players and midfield. de Marcos and Balenziaga might transition well to Libero. de Marcos already plays all over the place.

[LPQR]

I'm considering starting a new thread focusing on the development and the particularities of the libero tactic, as it's a bit messier than I like in here

[Ghents]

Please do. I've been playing around with the formation and quite like using two defensive wingers as almost pushed up wingbacks giving the width in the attack and bombing them in to the attacking trio.

[Anaconda Vice]

22 hours ago, LPQR said:

unfortunately, i will not go into those details for two reasons: one, this thread is about tactical concept development and discussion. second, the PI's are a result of the players available and how the team can play as a result. I have mentioned this repeatedly in the above posts and I expect the level of detail provided should be enough to enable anyone to develop a similar system or concept. If not, I'm afraid I'm not one to share tactics as that kills the point of having an educated discussion 

Fair enough, just looked like an exciting system. 

Have you been able to try and implement something like this on FM17 yet? 

[LPQR]

9 hours ago, Anaconda Vice said:

Fair enough, just looked like an exciting system. 

Have you been able to try and implement something like this on FM17 yet? 

Unfortunately I haven't got the new FM yet. Although as much as I hear everyone say the ME is much improved, I doubt there's any point investing time in designing a system on FM17 yet. It's exciting, I agree, but it's just the beta and from my experience the ME is simply not reliable yet. Maybe some less complex systems would work for now, but systems that rely a lot on specific instructions or the ME executing specific tasks in relation to the tactical creator will be very hard to set-up correctly and make them work in the long run. I am of course, half-speculating because I haven't actually tried the new FM yet, but I believe this is the logical thing to think, at least from experience

[edit]

forgot to mention  I'm one of those firm believers in tactical concepts rather than 'how to trick the match engine', so technically speaking, if I express my ideas well enough to draw a picture of the tactical concept of this system, I think it can be implemented in any version of FM, given you find how to instruct the ME to 'translate the concept' into the game and make adjustments if you see that, for example the left WM isn't performing the task that he is supposed to in the 'tactical concept' or that the shadow striker role now implies a new set of instructions that make him behave differently than what he is meant to do to make things work for everyone else

[Ghents]

I forgot to mention, I'm trying this on 17, not 16.

[LPQR]

16 hours ago, Ghents said:

I forgot to mention, I'm trying this on 17, not 16.

I've just tried FM17 on a friend's pc and the half back seems to be a massive problem so far, as it doesn't behave the way a half-back should. the defense splitting wide or staying narrower at appropriate times is very important in this system, and most of these width transitions are dictated by the half back. in theory, it could work with a very, very intelligent DLP(D) instead and with very good defensive/physical stats

[Ghents]

4 hours ago, LPQR said:

I've just tried FM17 on a friend's pc and the half back seems to be a massive problem so far, as it doesn't behave the way a half-back should. the defense splitting wide or staying narrower at appropriate times is very important in this system, and most of these width transitions are dictated by the half back. in theory, it could work with a very, very intelligent DLP(D) instead and with very good defensive/physical stats

Yes. I'm going to try a DLP-D and DM-D later on.

[davehibb]

I've experimented with a system based on the second iteration of the Stuttgart system here, with the 2 x AMC and it's carried over really well so far in FM17 with my fledgling Ajax save.

I wanted to go 3 at the back and I think the 'double 6' gives a nice shield and is also dynamic going forward in terms of the RPM carrying the ball and the DLP distributing it.

I've gone for the same roles and duties I believe. A few tweaks in terms of TIs, only being fluid and not very fluid being one. And no PIs as yet as the tactic isn't at 100% fluid and I want to wait until it is before I refine it to the style of play I want.

As for results, beat Rostov 4-2 away and 6-0 at home and just defeated BMG 7-1 away in the Champions league qualifiers. Lost 1-0 away to Heracles in the league but with a weakened team in preparation for the BMG game, so I think it was worth it.

[LPQR]

1 hour ago, davehibb said:

I've experimented with a system based on the second iteration of the Stuttgart system here, with the 2 x AMC and it's carried over really well so far in FM17 with my fledgling Ajax save.

I wanted to go 3 at the back and I think the 'double 6' gives a nice shield and is also dynamic going forward in terms of the RPM carrying the ball and the DLP distributing it.

I've gone for the same roles and duties I believe. A few tweaks in terms of TIs, only being fluid and not very fluid being one. And no PIs as yet as the tactic isn't at 100% fluid and I want to wait until it is before I refine it to the style of play I want.

As for results, beat Rostov 4-2 away and 6-0 at home and just defeated BMG 7-1 away in the Champions league qualifiers. Lost 1-0 away to Heracles in the league but with a weakened team in preparation for the BMG game, so I think it was worth it.

I'm very happy to hear that mate. I haven't tried an adaptation of any of these systems on the new FM yet, but if there would be a team that would be a perfect fit for the style of football they aim to play it would definitely be Ajax  

 

[davehibb]

The system does seem stable so far and I've become a big fan of the double 6 recently, as opposed to 2 in the CM strata and especially the RPM in that position.

There's a few positions I think I want to try and tweak but just waiting to get 100% familiarity before making those decisions.

[Lordluap]

On 10/20/2016 at 23:42, LPQR said:

Tactical musings part III - Bringing back the Libero

another piece I think is worthy of a write-up is my successful attempt at integrating a Libero in my system

so the tactic I used in my team for nearly 6 seasons now is pretty much exactly the same as the one in the OP, with minor changes on player instructions on the left WM and the central defender. Having brought back to the club a player that I trained in my academy, I've stumbled upon the issue of how to integrate him in my system.

Meet Benjamin Gallus

*I could play him at either RCB or DM(roaming playmaker) in my current system

*He wouldn't be amazing in either roles, as he lacks balance and jumping reach to be a central defender

and his first touch and technique are not more than okay for a RPM

*his best position and the most suited for his attributes is RB, which I don't use in my tactic since I play with a back three

*one thing that he excels in is speed. Lots of speed, work-rate, vision, passing, long shots and some great tactical intelligence

Okay, so the idea was to re-train him as a libero, as he is extremely well suited for that role, as the above screenshot highlights. Given that a member of my back three is getting older and will probably decline in his attributes in the next year, I decide to  shift my tactical approach to suit Gallus and slowly mould him as the leader of my back-line. Even at 21 years of age, he is one of my best players in the squad and it looks like he could improve even further. So, here is the new set-up:

*changed the DLP(D) to a HB(D)

*instructed the HB to mark tighter

*instructed the Libero to dribble less

 

so this how the team will look to move from a defensive shape         and this what the team looks like when in attacking shape

  

*the idea of the new system is to create extra pressure in midfield by having the libero acting as a roaming playmaker starting from deep. as the half back pushes forward as well when the team is in possession, and the left midfielder cuts inside, this creates a big numerical advantage in the central area of the pitch with players performing different movements and pulling defenders out of position in a very fluid system that allows plenty of movement:

-the half back and the libero will regularly swap positions depending on who is better positioned to defend/mark/receive a pass/press forward

- the WM has 'cuts inside instruction' but alternates with the CF in occasionally drifting out wide

- the SS and F9 will alternate positions in dropping deep or making a run forward

- the right WM will sit narrower to help the team when in possession, but will make a run wide when space opens up

So, essentially we would have 7/8 players in the opposition area when attacking, something looking like this

 

*the players PPM's play a massive part in why this system works as it does and is set-up as it is. The best example would be my CF's PPM's to cut inside from the left wing and come deep to get the ball. As the attacking move unfolds, he will drift to the left side of the pitch, creating width and allowing the left WM to cut inside and either support the three players on the right attacking the box or have a go at goal himself. The CF also comes deep to get the ball leaving space behind him for the SS, the F9 or the right WM to explore when they are in more advanced positions.

* as we employ a standard mentality coupled with a normal defensive line, when in defensive situations, our players sit pretty deep and we usually have 6-7 players behind the ball, and sometimes even 8 when the Shadow striker (who has a 'comes deep to get the ball' PPM) drops deep in midfield to pick up the ball and challenge opposition players. Below you can see how my team looks like having just won back possession from the opposition after a successful challenge by the HB:

-notice how deep my wide midfielders are, they are practically positioned as wing-backs

 

 

-a similar defensive situation. in three or four seconds after recovering the ball, our WM's are already much higher up the pitch, however you can still notice the 5 man defensive core.

from left to right: LCB, HB, Libero, RPM, RCB

 

- Example of Libero alternating with half back: usually our Libero is positioned in a more advanced area than the HB in attacking transitions, however in this attacking move the libero stays deeper while the HB makes a run forward due to him being in a better position to explore space and press forward. this will, in turn, allow the left midfielder to run wide and explore that space as the HB will have already covered the central area where he usually attacks

 

the team can position itself in a number of formations, depending the situation. for example, in this situation both our HB and Libero stay a bit deeper to mark the opposition forwards and we look like a 4-2-3-1. In this screenshot you can also notice the CF drifting out wide to the left.

 

defensive situation where we are being hit on the counter after losing possession high up the pitch. the speed of the Libero as well as the half back's and centre-backs' allow the team to get back into a defensive position quickly

the screenshot above illustrates another advantage that congesting the midfield area with the help of the libero brings:

*counterpress: notice that we have 6 players who are already in front of their opponents and are better positioned to intercept any balls that an opposition player might try to feed his on-running team-mates in their attacking build-up. In this specific move, Rapp succesfully challenges Petit, the opposition player looking to initiate the counter movement and our team is already high up the pitch enough to transition back into attack without having to cover too much space

 

example of player congestion in midfield

*in this specific move you can see Gallus(libero), Rapp (shadow striker) and Henrichs(RPM) forming a trident in midfield, that forces the opposition to commit men to challenge them. As a result, they only have 4 players defending our 4 players attacking the box. Gallus feeds the ball to Eggestein (CF), a whole block of 4 Bayern players is too high up pressing to react or track back in time and the CF has three three players providing options and making runs next to him: the right WM, the F9 and the left WM

 

So here is the final result against Bayern(most of the above screenshots where during this match):

 

and our form since changing the system*

*the match against Tottenham we fielded a rotated team and I tried to use a DLP(D) instead of a HB. obviously failed)

 

Issues to consider

- this system is working because of a very intelligent set of players in a very fluid system, as I rely on them to judge the situation and make the best decision

- both my libero and half-back are two physically astute players with very good speed and ability to read the game. Gallus' screenshot has been posted above, this is my Half-Back

- notice positioning, vision, work rate, pace and overall tactical attributes

- studying your players' ppm's thoroughly and understanding the movement that creates on the pitch is crucial, especially in a very fluid system

- all of the above mentioned points play a great role in how the team defends, transitions and attacks per general

- the libero's speed, physique, technical and tactical ability are all key to this system

This is genuinely verging on FM genius.  One of the best posts I've ever read on here.  Kudos.

[Ghents]

2 hours ago, davehibb said:

The system does seem stable so far and I've become a big fan of the double 6 recently, as opposed to 2 in the CM strata and especially the RPM in that position.

There's a few positions I think I want to try and tweak but just waiting to get 100% familiarity before making those decisions.

More and more I've been going for 2x DM vs. 2x CM. The extra defensive stability is worth way more than the added attack.

What are some of the positions you're thinking of trying? I think WM are perfect for the wing, but I was thinking of trying an AP-S instead of the AM-S for kind of a bigger inverted triangle AMC/DM/DM.

[niklas1907]

OI's?

[davehibb]

17 minutes ago, Ghents said:

More and more I've been going for 2x DM vs. 2x CM. The extra defensive stability is worth way more than the added attack.

What are some of the positions you're thinking of trying? I think WM are perfect for the wing, but I was thinking of trying an AP-S instead of the AM-S for kind of a bigger inverted triangle AMC/DM/DM.

For sure I think the defensive stability is worth dropping central midfielders back but from what I've seen so far from using this system and a 4-4-1-1 I used at the back end of FM16, the 2 x DM 'double 6', still offers a lot going forward, especially if one of the DMs is an RPM.

As for the changes I have in mind, I guess it's more about the players at my disposal and just fine tuning and trying to implement a certain style of play but again, I'm not at 100% familiarity so the things I'm not liking thus far may be fine once the team is totally familiar.

The role which is disappointing me just a little thus far is the Shadow Striker. I'm using Davy Klaassen there and given his mentals, physicals and PPMs, I would expect a little more from him and dynamism from the position than I have seen thus far.

I know @LPQR liked his SS with the 'comes deep' PPM, whereas Klaassen is more about going forward, so I may just have to tweak it slightly but we'll see. I'm still blown away by the 7-1 away win over BMG before I left home for work this morning.  I was hoping for a draw or narrow defeat, given the chasm in quality between the teams. The kids done good.

[davehibb]

20 minutes ago, niklas1907 said:

OI's?

I don't know about anyone else but I never bother with them.

[Ghents]

10 minutes ago, davehibb said:

For sure I think the defensive stability is worth dropping central midfielders back but from what I've seen so far from using this system and a 4-4-1-1 I used at the back end of FM16, the 2 x DM 'double 6', still offers a lot going forward, especially if one of the DMs is an RPM.

As for the changes I have in mind, I guess it's more about the players at my disposal and just fine tuning and trying to implement a certain style of play but again, I'm not at 100% familiarity so the things I'm not liking thus far may be fine once the team is totally familiar.

The role which is disappointing me just a little thus far is the Shadow Striker. I'm using Davy Klaassen there and given his mentals, physicals and PPMs, I would expect a little more from him and dynamism from the position than I have seen thus far.

I know @LPQR liked his SS with the 'comes deep' PPM, whereas Klaassen is more about going forward, so I may just have to tweak it slightly but we'll see. I'm still blown away by the 7-1 away win over BMG before I left home for work this morning.  I was hoping for a draw or narrow defeat, given the chasm in quality between the teams. The kids done good.

Interesting. I'm still trying to figure out what I want to do at Bilbao and this 343-ish shape is really interesting and would fit them long term. No matter the formation I use Raul Garcia absolutely mobs at SS, so I'll probably stick there. I'm going to try rolling with the AP-S since I have Munian with Iturraspe and Benat at DLPD/RPM as I'm a big fan of the double six from FM16 as well. I'll let you know how that works out for me.

You use the same setup home and away?

And yeah unless I'm trying to achieve something very specific I don't use OI, either.

[davehibb]

9 minutes ago, Ghents said:

Interesting. I'm still trying to figure out what I want to do at Bilbao and this 343-ish shape is really interesting and would fit them long term. No matter the formation I use Raul Garcia absolutely mobs at SS, so I'll probably stick there. I'm going to try rolling with the AP-S since I have Munian with Iturraspe and Benat at DLPD/RPM as I'm a big fan of the double six from FM16 as well. I'll let you know how that works out for me.

You use the same setup home and away?

And yeah unless I'm trying to achieve something very specific I don't use OI, either.

Bilboa is a save I'm seriously considering for FM17. I was originally going to do an Atletico save but I'm not feeling it at the moment, so it'll be interesting to see how you do.

I always use the same system home or away. I'm also not one for have an attack/counter/control version of the same tactic. Again, since the back end of FM16 I've gone more for a standard approach as a base and if i need to change mentality in game I can do so.

Again, that's done to reading great threads like this one.

[Ghents]

I usually always do Newcastle since that's who I support, but after about 2 seasons it gets too easy because when you win Ashley will actually spend a ton of money, so it gets boring pretty quick. Bilbao at least forces me to be strategic and rely on youth development. I'll try the formation out for a few matches and report back. I'm in the middle of my first season figuring out the squad and all. I usually play a full season to learn the players and then start for real fresh.

[BoxToBox]

19 minutes ago, davehibb said:

Bilboa is a save I'm seriously considering for FM17.

One of the best saves in FM, always.

[LPQR]

56 minutes ago, davehibb said:

The role which is disappointing me just a little thus far is the Shadow Striker. I'm using Davy Klaassen there and given his mentals, physicals and PPMs, I would expect a little more from him and dynamism from the position than I have seen thus far.

I know @LPQR liked his SS with the 'comes deep' PPM, whereas Klaassen is more about going forward, so I may just have to tweak it slightly but we'll see.

I've mentioned above that the way Rapp interpreted the SS role is pretty unique. Apart from coming deep to get the ball he was really quick and hard working as well, which helped him transition from midfield to attack in seconds, and that would be of equal if not greater importance in the system. From what I know, Klaassen is a player that struggles in that department (correct me if I'm wrong). Another issue could be the ppm's of your forwards, as, for example if one of the forwards is not droping deep enough, the SS could find his opportunities to have space to exploit limited. One possible approach would be to reduce the space between the lines even further by increasing the fluidity and d-line, however that's a drastic change to accommodate just one player, and many other aspects will have to be adjusted accordingly. Another option would be to have a DLF instead of a CF for the same reason, so that he drops deeper and aids your SS's chances of finding space behind the opposition. And finally, you could pull him down to a CM(A) or a AP(A) in the midfield strata for a slightly different style of play: more defensively solid and less of a threat in the box but with a greater influence in the build-up play.

Hope this helps

[LPQR]

4 hours ago, Lordluap said:

This is genuinely verging on FM genius.  One of the best posts I've ever read on here.  Kudos.

glad you enjoyed it  

[nick1408]

I've got Klaassen at the moment (paired with Saido Berahino).  Klaassen has pushed Ross Barkley out of the AMs role and Berahino owns the SS role.  I use the WMs as a passing outlet so Edwin Cardona (right footed playmaker) is situated there and helps buildup.  DLPd is Gueye while Will Hughes is the RPM.  I play Lukaku is up front.  I feel this is a fairly flexible tactic.  The only real issue I have seen (as with all back 3 tactics so far) is the side CD's drift too far towards the centre when the ball is out wide and it allows an opposition winger to fill the space, receive a cross and score.  The worst I saw was both DM's and the CDc close down an AMC allowing the two other CD's to drift central and allow a wider player time on the ball to score.  I haven't played with closing down yet but maybe if I tell them to close down much less I may not see that.