How on earth is it possible that the AI plays cautious against me and can have 60% possession?

[CaptCanuck]

2 hours ago, Zemahh said:

The problem lies in how Mentalities are designed. In theory, Cautious or Defensive should indeed result in "anti football", but in FM they really don't....

1. The way pressing works, players never close down passing lanes, instead they run directly towards the ball, vacating their area and leaving a passing option open. Even with top-heavy formations, that can result in some really wonky-looking pressing, with players chasing the ball like headless chickens and outside of opposition getting caught in possession, they can often still play out of defence without too many issues.

 

This is one of the reasons I've messed about with defenders and midfielders (basically whoever has some skills and pace, but also has good 'positioning', 'marking' and 'teamwork' values) in the striker's spot, to try and mitigate the comical angles pressers take when going to the ball/player they are man marking. Does it genuinely help? IDK, without watching more game play, but I'd like to think suitable attributes for suitable tasks within the overall tactic is better than not. Some forward with marking/tackling/positioning of 7 is definitely going to be Benny Hilling it all over the pitch.

[crusadertsar]

26 minutes ago, CaptCanuck said:

This is one of the reasons I've messed about with defenders and midfielders (basically whoever has some skills and pace, but also has good 'positioning', 'marking' and 'teamwork' values) in the striker's spot, to try and mitigate the comical angles pressers take when going to the ball/player they are man marking. Does it genuinely help? IDK, without watching more game play, but I'd like to think suitable attributes for suitable tasks within the overall tactic is better than not. Some forward with marking/tackling/positioning of 7 is definitely going to be Benny Hilling it all over the pitch.

Yeah, like actually play a proper pressing forward (with suitable attributes to match the role) when you want to press from the front. Makes sense! I always wondered why people played your typical CR7 wannabe in the forward role in a hard-working pressing system and then complained that he didn't press properly

Edited August 18, 2020 by crusadertsar

[CaptCanuck]

1 hour ago, crusadertsar said:

Yeah, like actually play a proper pressing forward (with suitable attributes to match the role) when you want to press from the front. Makes sense! I always wondered why people played your typical CR7 wannabe in the forward role in a hard-working pressing system and then complained that he didn't press properly

Ya my first two seasons with Brighton I had Maupay who could run around like a terrier biting at everyone's ankles, with excellent mentals for the pressing position - except the expected low defensive ones - when I transitioned to more pleasant football I sold him on as he didn't really fit anymore.

Now I don't really have anyone suited for that role the handful of times a season I'm pressed to bring that style out, so might as well experiment. Speaking of which I just played Bournemouth last night and played two up front (never played with two strikers before) with super high lines and urgent pressing and man-marking 3 of the back 4 and it worked as such. On work machine now, but I took a few screengrabs of the results, with this ad-hoc crash the bus tactic, I can add later.

[crusadertsar]

@CaptCanuck that's great, looking forward to seeing your results!

[Haribo1681]

I've been following this thread with interest for some ideas about how to combat the AI approach to nullifying games and partying like they're Spain 2009. Going into the final game of the season, we're second in the league and heavy favourites at home to Wolfsburg. I thought I'd experiment with some of the different options suggested here, so started on attacking mentality (to try and score early), standard LOE and higher DL, with PIs for the front three to close down more, OIs to mark their midfielders tightly (to close off the passing options) and close down three of their back four, hopefully forcing them to go through the left back at all times and reduce his options. After 30 minutes, that wasn't working so we switched to a positive mentality (to try and retain possession better but still be a threat in attack, as well as giving them a little more encouragement to leave their own penalty box); this was combined with a higher LOE and higher DL.

And then this happened...

(edited to delete accidental duplicate image upload)

By the way - I only posted this really as I found it amusing; i'm not really looking for any fixes, guidance or tactical workarounds and this definitely isn't a 'fix the ME now!' rant!

Edited August 18, 2020 by Haribo1681

[Hess]

20 shoots and only 4 on the target? That's is really bad, you should look at this in the analysis report.
I'll guess you are trying too hard and failing at it,  just giving the possession back. Maybe a lot of crosses and long shots? 

At the end of the day, you had only four chances to score.

[Bluebird123]

3 minutes ago, Hess said:

20 shoots and only 4 on the target? That's is really bad, you should look at this in the analysis report.
I'll guess you are trying too hard and failing at it,  just giving the possession back. Maybe a lot of crosses and long shots? 

At the end of the day, you had only four chances to score.

There it is, the "it's your tactic argument". Look at the opposition CB's passing stats, that is an absurd number of passes. When you add in the keeper, we're looking at 300 passes between those three players alone. For reference I beat Juventus earlier with my Milan team, we had 57% possession and not even my midfield three have 200 passes between them let alone over 300.

 

 

 

[Hess]

 

12 minutes ago, Bluebird123 said:

There it is, the "it's your tactic argument". Look at the opposition CB's passing stats, that is an absurd number of passes. When you add in the keeper, we're looking at 300 passes between those three players alone. For reference I beat Juventus earlier with my Milan team, we had 57% possession and not even my midfield three have 200 passes between them let alone over 300.

We use "your tactic argument" because it doesn't happen to us.
I'm the blue team.
Me (Brazilian Serie A) against a team that has no division:

Against a team in the second division.

One from third division:

Another lower Serie A team (I'm the black one):

Against a better team (I lost, but was a fair game).

I'm playing around with the tactics a lot this season, so I can really tell which one I used in the games, but mainly 4231 and a 370.
BTW, are you playing on Steam and the game is in the latest version? Sometimes it is just a bug already fixed...

Edited August 18, 2020 by Hess

[CaptCanuck]

25 minutes ago, Bluebird123 said:

There it is, the "it's your tactic argument". Look at the opposition CB's passing stats, that is an absurd number of passes. When you add in the keeper, we're looking at 300 passes between those three players alone. For reference I beat Juventus earlier with my Milan team, we had 57% possession and not even my midfield three have 200 passes between them let alone over 300.

What is genuinely funny is that their CB won PoM for playing 119 keep-away/training drill passes. I see he had 1 'key pass' so credit where credit is due ;-) Surely the substitute goal scorer deserved it.

[FuturePLManager]

14 hours ago, Enzo_Francescoli said:

Why don't YOU show us your tactic? It's a very real possibility that it's simply unsuitable for your intents and purposes. Based on those stats, it's yet another attacking high pressing tactic full of playmaker types without any real presence in the box.

You are joking right? If I'd use 25 playmakers I'd rather have too much possession and absolutely no attacking intent, which has nothing to do with a team like Montpellier passing around the ball in their 4-1-3-1-1 shape. I play Camavinga as a HB or DM/D depending on what the opponent plays and if I feel like  I need a build-up with three, which mostly happens with 2 striker formations or a 4-2-3-1. Ntcham and Pogba play CM/A and AP/S or in the CL or Lyon/Marseille/Monaco/Nice Away MEZ/S so I have a whooping 0-1 playmakers in a team that gets opposed with tons of caution.

[Bluebird123]

55 minutes ago, Hess said:

 

We use "your tactic argument" because it doesn't happen to us.
I'm the blue team.
Me (Brazilian Serie A) against a team that has no division:

Against a team in the second division.

One from third division:

Another lower Serie A team (I'm the black one):

Against a better team (I lost, but was a fair game).

I'm playing around with the tactics a lot this season, so I can really tell which one I used in the games, but mainly 4231 and a 370.
BTW, are you playing on Steam and the game is in the latest version? Sometimes it is just a bug already fixed...

I don't think you've really addressed the point, instead you called out the users shots on target and ignored the issue at hand which is defensive teams being able to pass the ball around and rack up crazy pass numbers and possession. Again, 300 passes between two cbs and a keeper is not normal or acceptable.. It's great you can achieve those numbers, I have managed it myself throughout my time with FM20, but consistently for an entire season? No way, once your reputation increases after competing for leagues you will face this issue at some point, obviously adapting is part of football, however the way opposition teams go about adapting to you is frankly ridiculous and the advice that is given is very contradictory at times, or just waved away and having your tactic called nonsensical or whatever. 

 

[Hess]

2 minutes ago, Bluebird123 said:

I don't think you've really addressed the point, instead you called out the users shots on target and ignored the issue at hand which is defensive teams being able to pass the ball around and rack up crazy pass numbers and possession. Again, 300 passes between two cbs and a keeper is not normal or acceptable.. It's great you can achieve those numbers, I have managed it myself throughout my time with FM20, but consistently for an entire season? No way, once your reputation increases after competing for leagues you will face this issue at some point, obviously adapting is part of football, however the way opposition teams go about adapting to you is frankly ridiculous and the advice that is given is very contradictory at times, or just waved away and having your tactic called nonsensical or whatever.

My team is predicted to finish 3rd in the league and I got this numbers through the last 3 seasons (won and 4th), but I got your point.
Once I have some spare time, which won't be any time soon, I'll try a save with a top tier team, like Dortmund or some PSG and see if I get the same outcome (opposition playing very defensive and defender with tons of passing and possession).
 

[CaptCanuck]

10 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

@CaptCanuck that's great, looking forward to seeing your results!

@crusadertsar @goku4 - so here is what I used against the Cherries. 1st pic is 4 screenshots from the match we just won, the 2nd pic is a comparison of general match stats and passing including the match they beat us earlier.

Bear in mind I've never (literally) used two strikers before, so don't know what the best combo is (I actually had Pelly as a TM in the first 1/2), and I know my midfield was exposed, but that was what I was willing to put up with to apply pressure.

My 3rd/4th choice strikers man marked their 2 CBs and my IF man marked their right back. Team wise I marked/pressed their CMFs. You can see the reduction in passes (previous match using a normal tactic) amongst the backline and CMFs, although Cook still did make quite a few. Interestingly their keeper had the same amount of passes and we had a similar amount of shots/corners, so their 'start position' was the same we just blew up their ping-pong option. In both matches their keeper was outstanding earning 7+ rating, otherwise I reckon a few more coulda/shoulda/woulda gone in :-)

Edited August 19, 2020 by CaptCanuck

[Enzo_Francescoli]

7 hours ago, FuturePLManager said:

You are joking right? If I'd use 25 playmakers I'd rather have too much possession and absolutely no attacking intent, which has nothing to do with a team like Montpellier passing around the ball in their 4-1-3-1-1 shape. I play Camavinga as a HB or DM/D depending on what the opponent plays and if I feel like  I need a build-up with three, which mostly happens with 2 striker formations or a 4-2-3-1. Ntcham and Pogba play CM/A and AP/S or in the CL or Lyon/Marseille/Monaco/Nice Away MEZ/S so I have a whooping 0-1 playmakers in a team that gets opposed with tons of caution.

No, I'm not, and I'll tell you why, although I still haven't seen your tactic. Most of these systems, like, I assume, yours operate on a higher mentality (positive or attacking). That will have your players move the ball around on a higher tempo and increased urgency which will often result in forcing the issue. At the same time, they will use a lot of playmaker types and support duties (more often than that includes their lone striker). That means they have no real presence in the box. So, what will the players do? Pass the ball around against a parked bus and because they can't pass it into the danger zone, sooner rather than later (high mentality, remember) they resort to long shots (40% of your total shots against Montpellier came from outside of the box). Long shot equals giving up possession. You can tell your players to work the ball into the box all you like if there's no one in the freaking box. Through balls? To whom? The people in the stands, most likely. You also don't have enough players up the pitch with the DM on defend duty. Against these defensive teams you  wanna leave only  the GK and CB's behind and have the rest of them get the hell up.

On the other hand, these tactics usually go with high pressing lines (and usually pair it with extremely urgent pressing). That means most of the action happens in the opponent half. There's no patient build-up by your team, because the higher mentality will make the players move the ball forward with urgency. Again, less possession. You wanna stop the opposition from passing the ball around the back, but at the same time you press their defenders with only three players, two of which are out wide (against a narrow formation, no less). Montpellier have five players with whom to build-up the play (includes the GK). And yet, the more urgent pressing will get your midfielders out of position (without really threatening their defenders), so Montpellier will always have at least one unmarked player to pass the ball to.

So, you're pissing away possession, but leave their patient build-up relatively unbothered. Do the math.

Edited August 19, 2020 by Enzo_Francescoli

[goku4]

This screenshot here, is the best proof how broken the ME is and how illogical mentalities are implemented ingame....

Btw, I just added a screenshot of my success so far, so that nobody can tell me that it's my tactics or that this post is just rage...

Bournemouth is playing with a defensive mentality, 3 at the back, one wb on defend duty, 2 CDMs plus 2 CMs and they just dominate possession away to one of the best teams of the PL.

There is no explanation for that. No "its your tactics" no "lower the mentality" etc. this can't just happen.

Edited August 19, 2020 by goku4

[HUNT3R]

We've tried to keep the discussion focused on the tactical side. Different ideas were put forward etc. While issues with the ME are acknowledged, at the same time, it's possible to do what you wanted - keeping possession against defensive teams.

 

 @goku4, if you want to continue a tactical discussion, open a new thread and list the issue you have + how you're setting up etc.

 

[Rashidi]

I just wanted to add something as this thread is being locked.

Looking at the tactic that was initially posted up. There is no question in my mind that it was giving away the ball needlessly to a team that wasn't planning on coming out. Instructions that didnt' make any sense.

1. Pass into Space against a stacked defence

PIS only works if there is space, the first tactic was playing with a much higher line of engagement and a higher defensive line, which means that you are already playing in the opponents half and trying to ask your players to go for risky passes and find players in space. That isn't really going to work well against a team that is stacked so deep. Instead it made things worse with the higher mentality. If tempo is any higher than standard then I will be surprised if one can leave the match playing like  that with 45% possession or higher.

2. Focus play instruction increases mentality and also risk, so those players on the flanks are going to give the ball away even more.

Personally speaking a strategy where I was playing wider, lower tempo, positive or attacking mentality with focus play could have been an option. I would also consider using direct passing and WBIB instead of PIS.