The Art of...Struggling !

[Daniele77]

Hi guys !

I'm back here...New FM, new issues ! Well, not properly, I got many successes in FM15 but this time I'm experiencing some difficult that I'd like to clarify before go trough my key season.

Everything started with Bari, my hometown, a promotion at the first season take me to the Serie A, one relegation avoided, 2 season in Europa League very good transfer moves and...back to the middle of the Serie A and now forced to qualify to the Europa League to keep my place at the club.

Well, this is not impossible to reach, now I got a very good team with 3/4 stars in every position and a good backup, something like 70M/€ and a team with the average age of 22 years...But still struggling and this year I can't fail, so I've to ask help from the guru's of this forum

Let's keep an eye to the team, to the system, to the issue, and let's build a winning club fixing bugs in my tactic !

Ok, here's my idea: a 4-3-3 Attack minded where (plan A) main scorers are the 2 inside forwards, plan B will see the wingback provide mixed crosses to my incredible striker (Dzaferovic it's a 2.02 beast...) or to my faster inside forwards cutting on the first or on the second post. I'd like to play fast and direct (I hate tiki-taka, just thinkin' about it when I'm leading at least 2-0 and I want to keep things safe without parking the bus...).

So I setted up an attack with 2 inside forward attack minded supported from a complete forward.

In the middle a "sitter" (The Defensive Midfielder, Darlan),that stay back and keep an eye on the flanks when the winback pushes a "runner" (Escalante, a box-box mid) and the "attacker" (The Advanced Playmaker, Lulic...wow, seems a Q.Tarantino's movie-intro!!!) that should provide different kind of play cover the space in font of them.

On the back, a pretty standard four line, with 2 wingback (support, in origins they was on "attack" but in the first year of Serie A I understand that there was a party every sunday on my flanks ) and 2 standard central defenders.

For first, like I learned here by the "grandmasters" wwfan, cleon, RTHerringbone and Rashidi (please, think about subtitle your fantastic guides...) let's keep an eye to the team report...

TEAM STATS

DEF STATS

MID STATS

ATT STATS

Like you can see, I build something good in this club...Let's think now about these stats and let's go to the chalkboard.

Let's start from what Team Stats suggests to me.

Teamwork ("Gioco di squadra") make me think about a Fluid formation (also useful to reduce the gaps on the flanks and from the midfield to the striker), my team is strong ("forza") so I choose to tight-mark and, a very good value on Pace and Acceleration in the Defs Stats ("Velocità e Accelerazione") should allow me to keep my d-line a little more higher than normal.

So let's think at the middle...I told I wanna play direct but without waste balls from the deep with continuos long passes, so I activate "Start building from defence", I told them to be more creative due to a good value in decisions (in both team and mid stats) and after some match with a very low ball-possesion (about 40%) I switched on mixed passes with a standard speed (that on attack minded team is anyway faster then normal).

In attack I suppose anything it's contextual. Let me explain better.

My team has good skill in decision, two inside forwards are faster and could use trough passes at the same time the should be capable to Run at defence so I choose at the end of the first half what to do if goal chances are lacking. Usually I look at the stats at what kind of goals usually they conceed so I choose that pattern. They conceed lots of goals from crosses? I choose "use flanks" and cross, more. They conceed goals from middle passes? Well, "use center" and "more trough passes".

I think this make sense. I think this should work...And easily with the team I got. No man. It won't.

I'm now trying to follow some of the suggestion in the post "The art of Attacking Football" where a more large team (but I'm attack minded..My team is already large) and more pressing (that takes all my players at a strenght of 70% in the last 20 minutes of every match) and see what I got, but let's see commons issue I'm experiencing and how I suppose to react.

1 - First of all can't dominate weaker teams.

Often got a very low ball-possession also versus weak teams and the worst part of this is that when a concede a goal they can easily keep the ball and deny any chance of score with a ball-possession that easily reach 60%.

Possible solutions: press-more, d-line higher, change the role of my Complete Forward to a Defensive Striker with support duty.

2- Conceding goals.

In the 3rd match of this season I was playing versus Livorno (respect, but isn't exactly play vs Juventus...) so I think about an easy game.

At the 9 minute we were already on a 0-2 with 2 goals conceded by crosses using a high d-line and a normal (that I suppose is anyway large) shape.

Really can't understand this...I'll switch to a large shape but I'm sure that I'll start to concede tons of goals by trough passes.

3- Central Defenders Instructions.

They are young, they are strong they are 4 star rated. Wow. If I set the old good tight-marking/hard-tackle/press more combo everything should work and opponent striker should not see the ball in 90 minutes...Well, not exactly, still conceding more than I expect.

4- The big illusion.

The hateful trick...I build 15 chances and finally I score...But immediately they draw.

Ok, they react but it depends by the team. I could accept to switch on "Counter" with biggest team, but I expect to kill lower sides that switch on "Attack" in the last 15 minutes with 2 goals more.

So, here we are, clearly I don't wan't a plug&play tactic, simple I'd like to understand were and why my decisions are bad and my system it's failing.

Hope you all can save my bench !

[Midnight Rob]

Made me smile if nothing else. Not your plight but I may add. I hope you discover... The Art of Some Helpful Replies...

[Daniele77]

Made me smile if nothing else. Not your plight but I may add. I hope you discover... The Art of Some Helpful Replies...

Yeah, I know, my english could have that effect !

With more pressing, highest d-line and overlaps things seems going better.

Won 3 at home (not easy games with Fiorentina, Sampdoria and a strong Udinese) and lost 2 (Roma and Milan but playing a very good soccer), but, most important thing, I keep the game in my hand, conceding 2 goals from distance against Roma (1-2 I had the lead till 65') and 2 goals from the same side to AC (0-2).

Come on, let's improve this season !

[Daniele77]

UPDATE

Juventus - Bari 7-0...What a shame, but I did a huge mistake. It was my fault.

Bari - Cagliari 1-0...1-3 Panic again, still conceding from flanks, not crosses but trough passes like a blade in the butter. Shape too large? My midfield concede too freedom? This continuous won/defeat makes me really confused...

[herne79]

I've just been out for an excellent meal, with good company and even better wine, so I'm a little fuzzy and not quite following it all.

Please take this bag of snakes and lay them out straight - what exactly are your Mentality, Team Shape and Team Instruction settings?

If I'm reading it right (which I'm probably not) - Attacking Mentality + Fluid Team Shape? And then TIs: Tight Marking, Slightly Higher D Line, Play out of Defence, Close Down More? And then some others depending on what happens during matches?

Think I may need some coffee...

[Daniele77]

I've just been out for an excellent meal, with good company and even better wine, so I'm a little fuzzy and not quite following it all.

Please take this bag of snakes and lay them out straight - what exactly are your Mentality, Team Shape and Team Instruction settings?

If I'm reading it right (which I'm probably not) - Attacking Mentality + Fluid Team Shape? And then TIs: Tight Marking, Slightly Higher D Line, Play out of Defence, Close Down More? And then some others depending on what happens during matches?

Think I may need some coffee...

Well...It's called "discussion" so let's discuss hoping to learn something.

What's wrong with attacking mentality combined with a fluid shape?

I'd like to take back the ball as fast as I can, so if I loose the ball I can't just sit and watch the opposite team keeping the ball all the time waiting for the final whistle, so I try to reduce space and press them.

Why this sounds so strange?

[herne79]

It doesn't sound strange .

I'm simply trying to understand what Mentality, Team Shape and TIs you are using.

[RTHerringbone]

It lacks any subtlety. The Mentality is aggressive, Duties are aggressive and TIs are quite aggressive. Possession is low because you play high tempo football, and possession in FM is based on time in possession rather than passes. Your AML/R do not defend effectively with those Duties in that Mentality, and your midfield Roles mean the Anchor has a lot to do. Watch where your players move as you attack; you commit too many forward and lack depth.

[nomorezen]

Agree with rth in my system I use fullbacks set to attack and they get forward a lot, using wing backs with just two central defenders and inside forwards and aggressive mentality is a bad idea you must concede a lot of goals from crosses and long balls down the wings.

Also don't assume that wingers can't score I use AMR/L set as wingers on support and they score 20 goals a season each because of the way the whole system is setup. Be less aggressive.

[MrYoYo]

Hey,

You're playing the same formation / idea I am, however I'm executing it a bit different.

One of the main issues I often have are indeed the very defensive teams that turtle in front of their goal. Very difficult to play against, and yep, often a fast counter and bam, you're behind even though you're often the better team.

For starters, my IF are on support duty, the formation/tactic/idea is already very offensive, so these guys needs to chip in defensively as well. My left IF is very very mobile and technical, so this guy is set up to play more narrow, which helps confuse opposing defense players often.

Next are the midfield players, an attacking advanced playmaker, and a supporting deep lying playmaker.

In deep midfield I have a halfback on defend duty. This is because playing high has its disadvantages :-)

Defence are wingbacks and central defenders. WB go up, stay wide and cross often.

Depending on the opponent, and the way they play, I use attacking - flexible or counter - flexible.

Tempo normal - high, depending on the opposition and play I'm seeing on the pitch.

Higher defence line

Close down much more

Play out of defence

Mixed passing

Look for overlap

Roam from position

Again, depending on what I'm seeing I sometimes cancel some of the TI's.

If the oppossition is scared and playing on the counter I play deeper, higher tempo, more direct passing, pass into space, try and get them to come at me. Or try break their defence by passing much more forward instead of lateral.

It's a difficult process. I'm playing a second division team (belgium, Lommel United), and it's slowly coming together now, I still often tie a game against these defensive counter teams.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2b77gS60tQsano1RWQtb2FRMG8/preview

[Daniele77]

It lacks any subtlety. The Mentality is aggressive, Duties are aggressive and TIs are quite aggressive. Possession is low because you play high tempo football, and possession in FM is based on time in possession rather than passes. Your AML/R do not defend effectively with those Duties in that Mentality, and your midfield Roles mean the Anchor has a lot to do. Watch where your players move as you attack; you commit too many forward and lack depth.

Ok, I see, so I suppose it's a matter of unbalanced duties.

I suspected about that, but I thought a 343 duty mix was good enough also because I haven't sides completely attack minded, but maybe I was wrong and this surely explain why my AP continuously try to launch in a nonsense way.

About my midfield...well many guides talk about sitter, runner and attacker so that was the reason I setted roles in that way.

I'll try changing duties and take a look at what is happening on the pitch.

[Daniele77]

Agree with rth in my system I use fullbacks set to attack and they get forward a lot, using wing backs with just two central defenders and inside forwards and aggressive mentality is a bad idea you must concede a lot of goals from crosses and long balls down the wings.

Also don't assume that wingers can't score I use AMR/L set as wingers on support and they score 20 goals a season each because of the way the whole system is setup. Be less aggressive.

Sounds good, but probably I'll try a set with 2 support wingback and 2 support inside forward. With 2 fullbacks on attack I'm scared that their main duty could leave too many freedom to the opposite wingers...

[Daniele77]

It doesn't sound strange .

I'm simply trying to understand what Mentality, Team Shape and TIs you are using.

Ok, probably you are assuming that in an attack minded formation there's no need to press more and play with an higher d-line...I agree, but I was looking for something that make me dominate the game and gave me the result to build 15/20 chance for a game vs 7/8 so I tried to change things maybe in a too extreme way.

[Daniele77]

"The wind of change" it's probably coming

I'll post some result with some explanation attached this afternoon or tomorrow ! Stai tuned !

[Daniele77]

Few changes:

On the flanks, changed the IF to a Support Duty.

Back on the Flexible system, that gave me better results in the pas seasons.

Be less aggressive with TI.

And so...

As you can see, I changed just a pair of settings and I had a huge improving even if now I can't get the same big results in a row a had in the beginning...Now let's play a very important game vs Bologna, so I'll explain other issues I'm experiencing...Why so "important" ? Well...

[Daniele77]

And before posting the results of the end of the season, I'd like to thank everybody who gave support in this post !

We are in Champion's League ! Not only...We could almost won the title but we had 2/3 unlucky matches (Empoli, from 1-0 to 2-1 due to a sent off...A late gol of Napoli that cost me a draw and a 0-0 at home vs Genoa).

But everything is perfect ? Everything works ? No, there are many issues to look at and I need some support in "reading the match engine".

For example:

- My striker (but inside forward too) collect too many offsides.

- Inside forward doesn't score so much even if alway say them to play more in the center of the pitch. I've to admit that (how you can imagine looking at tactic screen...) they are not natural inside forwards, but just wingers adapted to that role that plays on opposite foot side. Could this be reason?

- Overlaps are naturals and I've no need to put that to extreme using the properly TI, but too many times my wingback crosses are stopped so I simply collect I huge number of useless corners.

- Still conceding a lot when opposition start to overlap. I've also tried to go counter in a 451(M) formation but in the best case I still keep the lead without collect any goal chance.

Any suggestion, especially for points 1 and 3 ?

[Jean0987654321]

Nice to see that your tinkered tactic is now working.

[Daniele77]

Yeah, but like I said before It's everything but not perfect.

I'll try to do better in next season !

[Daniele77]

Aaaaaaaaaaaargh ! Not the start I expected !

The draft gave me a difficult match vs Sporting to access at the Champion's League groups. It was only 1-2 at home so I expect to play Europa League (again) if there won't be a miracle in Lisbona...Damn.

After that a non-easy game vs Brescia (I expected it was easier...) with this stats:

These are exactly what I don't want to see: only 5/14 shots on target, basically no clear cut chance and far away from the 50% of shots on target usually we should looking for.

I spotted something about tackling...Usually looking at the match engine I saw my wingback miss the tackle so the opposite winger can have lot of fun. What I did ? Fine-tune their tackle on normal and not on "Stuck-In" had a good result.

But remains that 2 big issues...Why my CF it's often in offside ? Why crosses attempt of my WB and IF are often blocked ? What ME it's hardly trying to explain ?

Any ideas and cooperation would be appreciate...

[Warrenwwr]

lets see some of the movement/crosses analysis pics for your forwards

[Daniele77]

This could be interesting. I never look at that stuff...I'll post it later, now I'm at San Nicola's stadium! Come on Bari !

[Daniele77]

Here you are. These are movements for my WB/IF.

I'll post movements of my CF...Looking at that, I'm not sure is it the role I'm looking for, cause he moves everywhere, but maybe it's better if he simply stay in the box linking with midfield when needed without moving on the flanks...

This refers to the match vs Sporting, where the issue was more easy to seek...

[Warrenwwr]

the CF does as he pleases i think. you want a striker role that would position himself mainly to receive the crosses. the wingers are doing well to get balls in the box. try the normal adv forward or poacher i think.

[Daniele77]

the CF does as he pleases i think. you want a striker role that would position himself mainly to receive the crosses. the wingers are doing well to get balls in the box. try the normal adv forward or poacher i think.

Yeah...But why crosses are so easily blocked ?

[Warrenwwr]

it would be hard to tell from just those pics, but my guess is that the crosses come in, but either the quality of the crosses aren't consistent or the striker simply gets outplayed by the defense.

things i would like at include giving my striker less freedom (ie give him a role like adv forward or poacher), or see if the wingersare getting enough space to send in quality balls. in this version of the game there are so many different things which affect pass quality from tempo to directness to attributes of the player etc etc.

try something and let us know how it worked out!

[Daniele77]

Ok time for frustration as arrived.

We read guides, we see movies and everithing we got it's "keep it simple, do not overcomplicate". So I did a try.

A 4-4-2, play direct, wide...nothing too complex just fullbacks, wingers, target man...Even an idiot should be capable to set up properly and, with a team that's got all the player 3/4 star rated play decently and reach a position between 1st and 4th.

Noway...At home 0-0 Vs Galatasaray and they shoots 19 times !!! Probably I did something wrong, but maybe the game is not easier like someone that knows how the ME works it's trying to suggest.I'm not havin' fun this year...

[Azor4Lion]

Hi Danielle77, I feel exactly like you. FM this year is being a really painful to play. My team goes on a roller-coaster, suffer stupid goals, can’t score many and can’t find a tactic to achieve success, this happened with RBL, currently on 3rd season, and the 2nd place last season was almost like a miracle.

I tried a save on FMT with Manchester United to test my tactics and like Rashidi said test the match engine and try to build the system I want, but things aren’t going well.

So I would like to play a 433, so I can flip it to 4141 if I want to counter attack or 4231 to flip into 4411 (I do this latter on games if I am winning by just one goal even if am favourite). I like to have plan A and B ready.

I will try to explain the thoughts I have about my team.

I want to play Control mentality, as RBL is predicted sixth place I want to fight for tittle, even I am not favourite, and the major of teams will try to get me on counter and I want to avoid being too aggressive with the mentality. I would like a team that have more possession, doesn’t matter how much, because control mentality makes sense to have more possession, I guess.

I like to build from the back, but have a doubt on the tempo I should use…

I hate long shots, I don’t buy/use player with longshots PPM.

Is possible to give my team freedom on the final third (no instruction) to make them decide which way to find the net and still be able to score a lot?

I would like being able to press the opponent, but not sure if this is a problem on my RBL save or not, by being too aggressive… On Man U save I haven’t pressing more than default.

My problems:

Suffer stupid goals

Very low shots on target vs shots ratio

Unable to score much goals in control mentality

Formation

Tem instructions

Started the match against Tottenham like this:

Since Newcastle game change the TI to:

Worrying stats:

Vs Derby

First half: Control/ Flexible, Play out of defence

Second half: Control/ Fluid, Play out of defence

I was testing how the team play with this instruction, but it was an awful performance

Vs Everton

It was another awful performance.

Everton had 36% possession when Barry was sent off (edited:minute 47), but manage to end the game with 47%!

Not happy with the way team played this 3 matches

What am I doing wrong?

[JaYmZeE]

Okay, excuse me if I misunderstand but lack of sleep and uncertainty on exactly what it is you want clarified are not going to stop me trying.

Personally, - not a fan of this 4-1-2-2-1 or 4-3-3 wide - but that's not really relevant.

If it was me trying to set up a footballing team that plays out from the back using this system - firstly, I'd have my passing set to short and the tempo to low. Fluid Team shape - fine, I'd have a slightly higher line and I wouldn't be playing the offside trap - only time I ever use offside trap is with the highest line setting normally when I'm using 3-2-5 to try and get a late equalizer.

Only ever use prevent GK distribution if your closing down more at least - which tends to be my default. - so I'd have prevent GK & closing down set to more - a slightly higher line, short passing, low tempo, play out of defence - but unless I knew of a specific weakness in the opposition no further instruction here.

As for the final third - you've got fullbacks - ideally these guys are going to be overlapping your inside forwards (don't understand the pre-occupation with these dudes - they're ok, but really, they just get in the road of whatever you've got storming up from midfield.) - anyway - so I'd be setting up to look for overlaps and work ball into box - I'd probably have either WB's on Support or FB's on Att to get them up - with there instructions saying cross more & cross from byline.

Your Man Utd unless I'm posting in the wrong thread - in any system where you aim to have control and have technically superior players - take of the leish and let em do what they were born to do - be more expressive & roam from positions are a must for me in this sorta system with good players. Look what happened when Mourinho put the leish on players like Hazzard, Oscar & co at the start of this season. You want to be creating chances - give them the freedom to express themselves and chances you shall have.

Not sure why your playing narrow - I'd be playing fairly wide or balanced and no narrower. Playing wider stretches the oppositions lines over a greater area allowing more holes for balls/runs etc.

Pass into space should be highlighted regardless of what system your playing. Space = good - unless your going for hyper pointless meaningless possession always passing to a body why would you not want to put balls into space for wide men or not so wide men - these days it could be women - whoever - I'm not interested in their gender/race/sexual orientation/religious beliefs/voting habits etc - I just want to know if they can anticipate that perfect ball into space that essentially rips the defence to shreds and leaves either an easy finish or a easy pass for a finish. I can't find my lighter.

Found it - Dribble at defence - I just leave - this can be decided by the players I've selected - i don't see this as a team instruction - thought of Talentless centre-half trying to dribble up-field - gives me the heebies.

The reason I use overlaps & work into box is that if you work into box without width it comes down to higher tempo one touch passing which leaves a high chance of mistakes and giving the ball away/attack breaking down - so at lower tempo build-up - control environment - the work ball into box works well - you end up with a higher standard of chance and a better ratio of clear cut chances:everything else and therefore more goals.

Sweinstigger is waisted in a DM-DEF role - DLP-DEF if you must - nothing wrong with DM-DEF - just not with The Sweinkopf. Herrera, Martial & Rooney are all in a bit of a hurry to get things finished - in a control environ I'd have much more focus on support roles - Rooney as an AF-A - I'm not sure - but I think he'd make a decent F9-Support - if not, your Man Utd - buy one or develope a couple. Now my issues are more with your system and the personel in the system than anything easy fixed.

I'd want a system that had mata in the 10 position - in the hole behind the f9-Support - playing in an AP-Support role. Rooney drops of, gets involved in the build up, I'd have a BBM or two or one BBM and a BWM in a support role behind them - that way you've got runners coming from midfield for mata to play in or go wide to the WB's on Support or FB's on Attack. They go wide the whole group take a walk to the penalty box awaiting the inevitable cross.

Granted in your system there is nothing stopping Herrera from awaiting runs from Fellaini and playing balls into space in front of him or Rooney if you leave him as AF-A. With FBs on Support your a little short on other options - they'll come forward, but will cross from deeper, leaving offsides an issue and also not really allowing time for Fellaini to come into play. I'm rambling so I'm going to try and make this maiden post and come back and see if there's something worth adding - if I continue in this vane I'm going to start slavering down my chin!

JaYmZeE.

Ok, Kettles on - in any system where you want to control play - you want to squeeze your opponent backwards towards his own goal - so think control - think slightly higher line & close down more - essentially gives you more space to work in and them less and when you do lose possesion and attacks break down, your team is straight back at trying to win the ball back. The fact that your using a control system means your of the mind that the opposition is inferior to you so they're hopeless centre halfs and mindless defensive midfielders will soon get caught in possesion or give the ball away under pressure and hey ho - a quick ball into space and whack - 4-0 to the pars, 4-0 to the pars - what's the score at East End Park - 4-0 to the pars!

Couple of wee things - I like many - when playing a back 4 will have one CD-set to DEF and the other set to COVER - this just means your a little less square and slightly less susceptable to the ball straight through your middle on the counter attack and after 60 mins of domination your 4-0 down at home to Crystal Palace (Nothing against Crystal Palace - just don't like finding myself 4-0 down at home to them when I've had 52 shots and they've had 2!)

Okay - looking at some of the other stuff you've posted. It's very difficult in the current version to Control a game when your away to opposition >= to yourself. Personally, I object to having to defend against anyone, but countering isn't quite defending I tell myself so I'll go with that.

This requires some pretty fundemental changes. Defensive line - slightly deeper, Stay on feet - when I counter I normally go flexible - tempo - normal at least but probably high - you don't have to - in fact if your normally a short passing team - stay short passing. I'd be more disiplined and Stick to positions. At this stage I'd go balanced or slighty narrower. Deselect play out of defence - stuff looking for overlaps or working balls into the box - this is now about effectiveness and nothing to do with hogging possesion - it's only beauty is the clinical fashion in which you despatch your foe after they've dominated for 85 mins - created a multitude of chance and find themselves losing 0-3 at home to your good self.

I realise I'm away into areas that have very little to do with anything asked here - anyway - flat 4 - FB on S - CD-D CD-C FB-S - I'd then have to DM-DEF sitting squat in front of the back four. Then a mix of WM-S & WiN-S in midfield so Wide-Midfielder on Support or Wingers on Support - if your feeling frisky you could risk WM-A - I'd then have an AM-S and probably a DLF on A or Complete Striker if you've got one - probably on Support. Essentially, your defence has to be set up to starve them of space - not commit therefore risking exposure - and wait for them to slip up, with a bit of luck leaving themselves exposed and off we go, a couple of quick passes to get you out wide, a pass to your striker who holds it up just long enuff for your AM to go steaming past and a pass into space in front of him setting him up perfectly to balloon it over the bar.

If your a longer passing team with wide men - like your set up - you may want to clear to flanks or if you have a particularly efficient front man - pump it straight boxwards - counter attacking isn't about anything masterful - not true - the mastery of the thief - quick, brutal but ultimately effective. Oh yeah - PACE - pace anywhere when your using counter will improve everything.

Normally I'm worried about gaps, and lack of obvious options etc when I set up my teams - when countering I couldn't give a monkeys frustration - worth keeping in mind to change your set-piecies when countering - to make sure you don't get caught on the counter when taking a set-piece you gained from a counter. Leave xtra bodies back - you can still be effective from set-piecies - quick throws etc - but your never looking to commit bodies forward in numbers.

I've probably missed most of the bits that matter but hey-ho, don't be a lemming!

KNEW i'd miss something important - GK - distribution - HUGELY IMPORTANT - Control - roll it out - slow it down - distribute to someone close - CB's that can pass more than 3 feet or full backs or some deep playmaker.

For Counter - Distribute quickly - throw it long if he;s capable - UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES have keepers hoofing it upfield where it all becomes a lottery regading possesion - when it's in your keepers hands - you have possesion - don't waste it.

[Captain Cabinets]

Absolute quality post JaYmZeE.

There's lots of great advice in these threads but rarely is it so succinct and understandable in terms of what's happening and why.

[JaYmZeE]

Happy to be of service!

[Azor4Lion]

JaYmZeE, your post was awesome!!!

I am trying to create something for RBL, so I use Man U for tests, but United is going in the same way, bad...

Some silly goals I suffer

[video=youtube;39mx25UkQFI]

[video=youtube;fKySwnWCRus]

[video=youtube;Upynz0dFJtg]

The 3 major problems are:

- I can’t make my team score a decent amount of goals

- Still suffering more goals than I should (when I am on balanced formations and against weaker teams)

- Can’t control the game even if am superior (not talking about just possession, but sustain the opposition and not suffer 10-20 shots against a underdog)

By now, after 2 seasons and 3 months with RBL, I have a decent squad, am on UCL, and I want my team to do somethings, but I can’t make do things right. I doubt more and more on my game plan leaving my confused. But I will try to forget what I think I know and start from zero.

I have write to myself what the dna of the team be like

-Attacking football (score a decent amount of goals)

-Win possession battle

-Have a short passing game

So putting things on FM terms:

What should be the formation: 4231 or 433? On RBL I have players for both but still not sure which one choose

And how about use 3 CM and then adapt in game, if needed?

TI (help me understand things a little better, please) :

Low tempo or normal tempo? Will be bad if my front man try do things a little faster? Normally I go with low tempo on RBL

Width: it would be bad if I set fairly narrow? When I was testing the match engine, I got the idea the team will be closer and defend better, am I wrong?

Offside trap: if I am playing a high D-line wouldn’t be better keep it in line to avoid more through balls?

Tackling: normally I leave it by default, because I am not sure which suits me better

I think I will use close down more to win back the ball, usually do in RBL

Play out of defence, short passing and work ball into box is a good combination? Or will WBIB leave to meaningless possession?

If I am playing away should I use pass into space? Like, JaYmZeE said teams will be leave more space for my fast players to exploit

And how about roam from position? This would make my team more unpredictable, am I right?

Discussing The roles

JaYmZeE, don’t worry about Schweinsteiger, he is there just temporally, I am more concern discussing the overall roles then for a specific player.

For my 433, I was thinking in:

Central Defenders

I am not sure if I should use a Defend/Cover or just leave it D/D. My problem with the central defender is they both leave position too much to press the ball carrier, like in the image bellow

Think maybe wingbacks will be more suited when a playing at home and FB on away games

DM

Using a DLP will lead to some possession loses on the build play or is just me?

How about using halfback? This will leave my defence for solid I guess. Anchor Man is solid but team tend to not pass him the ball to recycle possession, is this wrong?

CM pair:

One of my big doubts is which type of playmaker use and which runner select

I like RPM, but not sure if AP(A), can give more offensive solution to my team, and if it is needed. Which should I choose?

The BBM or BWM(S)?

Wingers

I use wingers or IF depending on the players I have…

Forward

Almost every time used Advanced Forward(when the player doesn’t the quality for CF) or Complete Forward

[JaYmZeE]

Okay dokey - I'm glad you liked my post despite it seemingly solving nothing for you. I'm perfectly happy to provide you with completely hopeless responses in an endless loop till the end of time - at the end of the day - there's no point to anything anyway so we might as well do this. Need to find lighter

[Azor4Lion]

No, your post was helpful and said good stuff, but you where kind of generic in some area, and i am trying to understand what i am doing wrong so i asked more concrete stuff. Sorry if i pass the message that you don't teach me nothing. I will break down your post and show what were the more usefull parts for me

[JaYmZeE]

Okay dokey - I'm glad you liked my post despite it seemingly solving nothing for you. I'm perfectly happy to provide you with completely hopeless responses in an endless loop till the end of time - at the end of the day - there's no point to anything anyway so we might as well do this. Need to find lighter.

Okay, your three major problems - essentially everything. As I understand Football, you want to score as many goals as possible, at the same time as conceding as few as possible and if you have superior technicians to your opposition you should be able to force your will upon them and break them to the point they shout, "it's our baw, were going home"

Let's start with scoring goals. There are so many different methods of getting the ball between the opponents sticks - up to a point - the closer you are to the sticks when you or your technician shoots - the better chance of scoring a goal. Problem being - you have your opponents techs standing between you and their sticks so it's really just a game of "catch the flag" with a ball and some other stuff. In catch the flag - "HE WHO DARES WINS" - so lets take it from there.

Assuming that all technicians on the field have a relatively adequate degree of proficiency at controlling the ball - leaving the ball with them and hoping they score for you is unlikely to be a successful strategy - If you take a good look at how the Italians fought the 2nd world war this would provide the best example of the problems surrounding this idea.

So, we want the ball - how best to get it past the array of ugly mugs in front of us. We've got, punt and run - essentially the forerunner to modern day british football, where someone kicks it as hard as they can away from the general direction of your own goal and then all your tech's chase after it in the forlorn hope they'll beat the opposition to this. I refer you to Monty Python for excellent schooling in this method.

Couple of points that are always worth keeping in mind - the ball will travel faster towards it's destination if it doesn't have a player attached to it. Now we're into the realms of pass and move - the cornerstone of any genuine football team. If you just pass and don't move the opposition will quickly work out where you all stand and will make easy interceptions. This is why we don't see a line of techs as the bird flys between both goals. Direct approaches in general lack much in the way of imagination and are therefore easily countered. There are exceptions - just because you KNOW what's about to happen doesn't mean you can with 100% certainty stop it if the opposition is really really good at it.

Sorry - bad acid indigestion and a temporary delusion I could make myself laugh it away.

[JaYmZeE]

Seriously now - I was being a **** cause I'm not feeling well.......

[JaYmZeE]

Lets start with TEMPO.

Okay - how quickly you want the ball moved around the field - slower you go the more control your likely to have so you'll make less individual mistakes and team mistakes to boot - problem is your moving slowly the opposition can see what's coming and either organize themselves accordingly or when they get bored watching your three centre-halves passing in triangles - they'll start to press and win the ball from you or cause panic and you'll find your technically inept centre halfs just kicking it away so they don't get hurt.

So move the ball faster - this can only be down if you have technically proficient players - guys who can kill the ball with one touch and pass it with the next - the higher the tempo the more likely mistakes will be made even by technical geniuses and there is also the fitness factor as well - passing and moving all the time takes up energy so only the very fittest gifted teams can play football at the top level in this manor.

Mere mortals have to try and find some sort of balance. As Alex Ferguson so aptly put it - Possesion without penetration is pointless. So a constantly low-tempo sideway's and backwards passing game is only good for waisting time or hypnotisiing your opponents until a mistake, lapse of judgement or lunge born from frustration provides an opportunity to tear your opponent a second blowhole.

Whilst in possesion you also have the options of passing to your teamates - some of these guys are going to be little better than posts or a garage wall - others - they can either see space to move into or are capable of making the pass into the space for another talented individual to pick up on.

At the end of the day, your looking to exploit spaces left by your opponents. Space may be left thru pure ineptitude of a poorly organized team - or at the top level space is created by clever movement made by clever players and other players exploiting the space created. Hence the importance of movement - if your team doesn't have runners to take opposition players with them out of position - players to run into the space and players capable of passing into these spaces for the runners - it's why so many of the best off the ball runners haven't always been given the credit thye deserve - unselfishly making runs they kniw will result in nothing but moving an opponent out of the road so others may claim the glory. Iain Durrant before being crippled by Neil Simpson springs to mind.

This is why the pass into space option is so important - at the end of the day all that possesion is of no use whatsoever if there is no end product. You do have exceptions to the whole creating space rule - some players - Messi, Maradona Pele, etc just ran past the obstacles in front of them like there was space all along - but these are few and far between.

To score lots of goals - you don't need to have an attacking mentality - the system I'm using at the moment....

CD-D CD-C CD-D

WB-S DM-S WB-S

BB-S BB-S

AP-S

F9-S

3-6-1 or 5-4-1 Diamond or a variation there-of. TI's Control/Fluid - Slightly Higher line - low tempo - prevent GK distribution - close down more - play out of defence - look for overlaps - work ball into box - play slightly wider - roam from position & be more expressive - sounds like a defensive set up but it's not - and when the AI starts playing 5 at the back to outnumber you just change your WB's from Support to Attack roles and crush them into oblivion for daring to make me click the mouse a couple of times. If they still resist - tempo to high - more direct passing - scrap the out of defence and work into box and hey ho you will pummell them flat like the earth before she was round.

This system essentially has me camped up around the opponents penalty box - the playmaker or F9 either playing thru balls for any of the BB's or WB's to run onto to score - or playing balls to the wing-backs who cross and everyone piles in for a chance of getting on the end of them and if they dare to clear - A - I've got my DM-S to clear up and if the bypass them I've 3 CB's sitting waiting with huge Ogre like clubs to beat them back into Mordor.

Even better - it turns into a horrific Counter Att strategy - Just won the FA Cup with A league one Q.P.R with this format. TI's - Slightly deeper - stay on feet - tempo high - still short passing but all the play out of defence - overlaps & work into box are gone - replaced by be more disicplined and stay in position + change the DM-SUP to DM-DEF and get him to pick up people like mata or ozil or whoever - think I had Sandro doing it for me - it's not pretty - but I'm in Europe in the Championship next year - replacing the Johnsons £5000 fine trophy. Your F9 in this system becomes a DLP-ATT and the AP-S becomes an AM-S.

Sorry, I really do feel a massive burning in my chest - this wasnt meant to turn into look what I'm doing.

One thing to keep in mind is that when you set up your formation(s) - you've got to make sure your teams mastered them in training - fluid on all fronts before you actually know if it works or not. In this version of the game, because I made some winter signings it took me till April in my first season to get the bars all maxed - so unless you use an editor to get round that patience is required. U may find your not scoring because your teams still getting to grips with the tempo - or your defence is hopless because it hasn't got closing down past competent yet.

[Azor4Lion]

So, we want the ball - how best to get it past the array of ugly mugs in front of us. We've got, punt and run - essentially the forerunner to modern day british football, where someone kicks it as hard as they can away from the general direction of your own goal and then all your tech's chase after it in the forlorn hope they'll beat the opposition to this. I refer you to Monty Python for excellent schooling in this method.

So you where suggesting me to punt the ball right away when i have it?

I have a preferred method on how I would like my team to assist, but that will implicate more lost possessions, and I think maybe not forcing to many or to little crosses would be a good balance

[JaYmZeE]

There is also the familiarity of your team and how well they've gelled together - you cannot underestimate having your assistant telling you that this group of players WILL DIE FOR EACH OTHER - that and maxed out formation bars and your gonna do okay.

As for roles - I wouldn't over think them to start with - for control type formats - a playmaker is appropriate - but who and why can be interchangable - suck em and see - in my current system - I'm quite sure I could swap out my two BB-S for a BWM-S and a Roaming Playmaker and not kill it - I'd lose some dynamism but some of the slack would be picked up by the wide players and the front pairing.

As for the Advanced Striker Att option - I NEVER USE THIS - especially not in a control formation - they're essentially in a hurry to get things finished and that doesn't spell control it spells loss of possession or early half chance rather than well worked patient clear cut chances. The F9 Role I did not understand at all until this version of FM and it is awesome - as long as he's not isolated. If your using a CF - then set him on Support - he'll still get into the box and score goals - he's just far more likely to be involved in the build up first.

U can use workhorse Forwards that run the channels to create space in the middle - just remember you have to have runners or something coming into the space they make for you BB-S are my favourtite but there is nothing wrong with a CM set to ATT - BWM-S or even Regista's and to a lesser extent DM-SUP - they'll all move about creating options for the man on the ball - just to varying degrees. What i would say - is don't just try it for one game - the system needs to be looked at carefully - you'll then start to see the areas that could be improved - you may notice - space but no one to run into it - or playmakers with not enough options and can start making small changes to fix this - just one or two changes at a time because if you stumble on something and your changing lots - you'll not have a clue what it was that finally made it all click.

[JaYmZeE]

NO - DON'T PUNT AND RUN - MY SENSE OF HUMOUR TRYING TO MAKE ME LAUGH AWAY MY INDIGESTION - IGNORE EVERYTHING BEFORE I SAID "SERIOUSLY" - Sorry mate!

Setting up some form of basic control formation should be easily enough achieved - I'd like to see you get to that point at least

WB-S CD-C CD-D WB-S

DM-SUP DM-DEF

WM-A WIN-S

AP-S

F9-S

TI's Low tempo, control/fluid, slight higher line, close down more, prevent GK dist - be more expressive, roam from positions - play out of defence (MAKE SURE GK INstructions to roll out to CB's or WB') - look for overlap - work ball into box - short passing - I know that works cause I've won with it - change the WB-S to FB-A's - both DMS to DEF - AP-S to AM-S and F9-S to DLP-A as well as TI's Slightly deeper, stay on feet, high tempo short passing - but get rid of the rest of the TI's should be left with 8 ti's max now - that's you set up to Control at home and counter away - a base to work from - chop and change to your pleasure - make it work better than mine - learn and come back and teach me something -

Okay - gotta take some medicine and goto sleep - Will check back soon as I can to see if you've made any progress - sorry if I confused you earlier - I occasionally find myself hilarious and forget that others do not!

Best of luck!

[Azor4Lion]

One doubt: what do you mean with "WM-A WIN-S"?

Your TI are interesting, i will test them, for sure. On away games your team isn't wasting too much possession playing that type of fottball?

I have 1 problem either, i don't have the kind of players to play F9,i just have one of them, Rooney on Man U and Gabriel Jesus on RBL. On RBL i have Davie Selke who is a defensive foward, poor technical side and decisions, but won golden boot... Maybe i will try to use him as defensive foward so i could play simple and be on the end of crosses and deadly passes to do what i know best: score. Said that, F9 don't well my players

[JaYmZeE]

WM-A = Wide Midfielder set to Attack and WIN-S supposed to be Winger-Support.

I have no problem away from home using the control TI's assuming I'm good enough to be playing Control away from home - at least 50% of my away games are played using Counter - I've managed to get away with maybe a season or two just playing control but eventually the AI susses this out and starts pressing big-time - when this happens I'll just play round inferior opposition and they exhaust themselves but if the opposition are close enough to me in standard I end up either penned in if I leave the tempo low or making too many mistakes if I up the tempo - hence my use of counter in a fair percentage of away games.

On the subject of F9's - you can retrain any suitably rated AM's/AP's to play as F9's. Bal/Agi/Pas/Vis/Tch/Fst/TW + obvious striker ratings are whats needed - most of these rating are found in good attacking midfielders - and given the shortage of natural F9's game wide it's an option for getting round it.

Your other ideas instead of F9's might work perfectly - I'm just a huge fan of the role at the moment - having only recently grasped exactly what it does and what it can be used to do - nothing to say other options are not equal or maybe better - just Advanced Forward set to Attack doesn't really sit well in a control/possession system.

[Daniele77]

Ok guys but the time with which the AI react is really ridicoulus !!!

I'm taking a look at the thread http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/448703-Tactical-Central-amp-Insight-FM-2016 cause I found it very useful...

it puts the game in a "rock paper scissors" way and in some ways it works cause I used something similar in FM13 (maybe)...But the problem is that if you spot the right mentality ypou need 7/8 chance to score a gol...You keep the eye at the opponent tactic widget...They change mentality and immediately they'vo got a chance before you can change your mentality to counter AI...BANG ! 1-2..Game over...

[Loversleaper]

Ok guys but the time with which the AI react is really ridicoulus !!!

I'm taking a look at the thread http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/448703-Tactical-Central-amp-Insight-FM-2016 cause I found it very useful...

it puts the game in a "rock paper scissors" way and in some ways it works cause I used something similar in FM13 (maybe)...But the problem is that if you spot the right mentality ypou need 7/8 chance to score a gol...You keep the eye at the opponent tactic widget...They change mentality and immediately they'vo got a chance before you can change your mentality to counter AI...BANG ! 1-2..Game over...

Usually I don't go into other threads and comment, but since you linked a thread that I wrote in yours I felt (in a way) that I might be able to point out a few things. I don't know if you can put it down to simple terms and say that the ME calculates in a "rock paper scissors" kind of way. In the real world of football you have the aspect of either Attacking or Defending against your opponent (or maybe a little bit of both). Against Barcelona most teams try to defend as best possible and against the weaker sides in the league they tend to Attack more and hope for the victory. Most managers are more result orientated due to the pressure of the sack - it's after all, their livelihood at stake here.

If you would like to know my personal views and experiences, you are always welcome to post in my thread. If you do, there are a few things that you should include: media prediction, club expectations, type of team you have (battling relegation, are you a world class team or something in between). Match for match, it would be good to include the scenarios - home or away, are your team expected to win or is it a tough fixture. These kind of things can play a part in how you set up your team

[Daniele77]

Usually I don't go into other threads and comment, but since you linked a thread that I wrote in yours I felt (in a way) that I might be able to point out a few things. I don't know if you can put it down to simple terms and say that the ME calculates in a "rock paper scissors" kind of way. In the real world of football you have the aspect of either Attacking or Defending against your opponent (or maybe a little bit of both). Against Barcelona most teams try to defend as best possible and against the weaker sides in the league they tend to Attack more and hope for the victory. Most managers are more result orientated due to the pressure of the sack - it's after all, their livelihood at stake here.

If you would like to know my personal views and experiences, you are always welcome to post in my thread. If you do, there are a few things that you should include: media prediction, club expectations, type of team you have (battling relegation, are you a world class team or something in between). Match for match, it would be good to include the scenarios - home or away, are your team expected to win or is it a tough fixture. These kind of things can play a part in how you set up your team

Now I'm really busy with my season, maybe I simplyfied the concept but I hope you didn't misunderstood what I said about your post (GREAT) !

He's helping me more than my post above could suggest !

[Daniele77]

THE END OF STRUGGLING !

Wow, what a season...

I was the first one but a series of four games without a victory cost me the championship lead.

With two games left to play they had left the direct clash against Juventus and insidious away match against AC Milan.

After dominating at home against Juve (2-0) I recovered the championship lead, comes an incredible match played on the counter!

We take the lead after 2 minutes, but at 3rd Grill, my unhappy and already signed to ManCity left-back was sent off for a killer-useless-tackle !!! Step to 4-4-1!

Juventus on the 19th is already 3-0 against Sampdoria when Darlan, one of my two midfielders throws a bomb from outside the box! 2-0!

The second half opens with 3-0 scored in the 48th, 71 minutes Milan tried to scare me but at 77th comes the 4-1 and not even 4-2 at the 78° can't now to scare me ... The Bari finally won the Italian Serie A after an incredible game played vs Milan in 10 versus 11!

Everybody's helps me on the forum but I really give this victory to Loversleaper !

His suggestions on mentalities have greatly helped me and could take me to write a post titled "spot the mentality" after checking some tactical mechanisms in the coming seasons.

But the work is far from finished, the tactics created allowed me to win by adapting the team instructions to the qualities of my players but without showing me the kind of soccer that I'd like to see.

Next year I'd like to see faster games, more one-twos and triangles...Any suggestions would be appreciated, also because I often get confused about passing and speed of play cause often I see people playing in a contradictory way like Fast/short passing...