4-4-2 Diamond advice

[daleuk8]

I wondered if people could give advice on this tactic? I'm looking to play possession football.

[daleuk8]

Any advice?

[jevans]

What kind of advice are you looking for? What's working? What isn't?

What possession stats are you getting?

Are you creating chances?

Scoring goals?

Conceding goals?

My main concern just from the lineup would be Henderson and Johnson both bombing forward and leaving your right flank exposed. I'd probably want my BBM on the left and CM (who I'd stick on defend) to the right, or alternatively swap the wingback's roles so the WB(s) covers for the BBM's runs, and the CM(d) for the WB(a)'s.

[CloudKing]

What kind of advice are you looking for? What's working? What isn't?

What possession stats are you getting?

Are you creating chances?

Scoring goals?

Conceding goals?

My main concern just from the lineup would be Henderson and Johnson both bombing forward and leaving your right flank exposed. I'd probably want my BBM on the left and CM (who I'd stick on defend) to the right, or alternatively swap the wingback's roles so the WB(s) covers for the BBM's runs, and the CM(d) for the WB(a)'s.

He doesn't need a cm(d) He already has a Half back In fact he should oput that cm to attack or put the cm on support and the am on attack to have a properly balanced diamond. In Fact I have both Wingbacks in the wingback position on attack using a cm(a),bbm,hb and am(s) and have the bet defence in the league

• I Would suggest putting both Wingbacks on attack or finding another way of providing width
  
• The changes to the diamond I suggested above
  
• You have 0 specialist positions so you should look at changing to very Fluid.
  
• Increase Closing down
  
• Experiment with Roaming and Move into channels to get good movement
  
• Try Offside trap If you have the players for It
  
• If you want more paitent play try lower tempo, more Urgent play try higher tempo( take note I'm pretty sure mentality affects tempo already so keep that in mind)
  
• Pass into space may be helpful
  Try and think about how you want to play and what makes sense together and try watching matches on full or comprehensive so you can see the effect yor changes have. try and find
  

[Bittah Dreamer]

He doesn't need a cm(d) He already has a Half back In fact he should oput that cm to attack or put the cm on support and the am on attack to have a properly balanced diamond. In Fact I have both Wingbacks in the wingback position on attack using a cm(a),bbm,hb and am(s) and have the bet defence in the league

• I Would suggest putting both Wingbacks on attack or finding another way of providing width
  
• The changes to the diamond I suggested above
  
• You have 0 specialist positions so you should look at changing to very Fluid.
  
• Increase Closing down
  
• Experiment with Roaming and Move into channels to get good movement
  
• Try Offside trap If you have the players for It
  
• If you want more paitent play try lower tempo, more Urgent play try higher tempo( take note I'm pretty sure mentality affects tempo already so keep that in mind)
  
• Pass into space may be helpful
  Try and think about how you want to play and what makes sense together and try watching matches on full or comprehensive so you can see the effect yor changes have. try and find
  

Can I ask wha team you are and how you are doing?

I really want to try and get a good attacking diamond going, but I can never seem to get it. I want it to be more direct than possession based, but still like to incorporate counter-pressing. I've never really been comfortable sitting back and playing the tradiitonal counter.

[spaced33]

I wouldn't use the diamond as it stands - I am using a 4-3-1-2 narrow with a deep lying playmaker as my central mc. I find that having 3 mc's tends to push the outer ones wider and they end up assisting with taking on the opposition fullbacks in defence. The formation still ends up looking like a 4-1-2-1-2 narrow diamond when you look at the average positions.

[Bittah Dreamer]

That's how I've tried to set up as well to stop the middle diamond being so narrow.

What roles have you used for the other three midfielders?

I am finding it hard to come up with the right balance. The need to be solid in defence, yet still offer something going forward as well as an outlet for the wing backs.

As the wing backs are my only width, I feel that both should be on attack, but then that doesn't leave as much scope to have a significant variation in the mcl and mcr roles as both need to provide reasonable cover.

[spaced33]

I'm still finding my feet with it but I have the following:

mcr: roaming playmaker/box to box midfielder (depends on who is playing)

mc: deep lying playmaker defend

mcl: central midfielder attack

amc: trequartista

fbr: complete wing back

fbl: wingback support (to provide more defensively for the cma)

My concern at the moment is that perhaps I've got too many playmakers.

I've also set all three mc's to close down more - i find that this rushes the opposition into poor passes and we get a lot of turnovers like this

Not sure if you've had the same problem but I tend to find my wingbacks get isolated and their only option is to cross - not sure how to remedy this

[Bittah Dreamer]

I'm still finding my feet with it but I have the following:

mcr: roaming playmaker/box to box midfielder (depends on who is playing)

mc: deep lying playmaker defend

mcl: central midfielder attack

amc: trequartista

fbr: complete wing back

fbl: wingback support (to provide more defensively for the cma)

My concern at the moment is that perhaps I've got too many playmakers.

I've also set all three mc's to close down more - i find that this rushes the opposition into poor passes and we get a lot of turnovers like this

Not sure if you've had the same problem but I tend to find my wingbacks get isolated and their only option is to cross - not sure how to remedy this

I have found that both the wing backs and the front three can be somewhat isolated.

The wing backs when the ball goes out wide, as the front three are usually well marked and it's difficult getting the middle two to support while maintaining defensive shape.

The front three can also be a bit isolated at times once the balls sets forward to them, as (for similar reasons) I don't seem to be able to get runners up to support them.

I had trying to play a bit more direct and at a higher tempo, but maybe u need to allow the midfield more time to get up and support. And

I'm also unsure about how to set my defensive line. I would like to go high to keep my team more compact and therefore make it easier for players to find each other and play triangles. However, I don't know if the diamond is really the best formation to press with as you end up pulling players from the middle and negating it's main strength defensively. However, I think maybe a 4-3-1-2 diamond should help in that regard, by having the middle three wider, and leaving two men holding the defensive line even if one player goes wide to press.

On the other hand, by dropping deeper you leave more space between the defensive, midfield and attacking units with leads to the aforementioned isolation.

I have always played with just one up front for the last three or four versions, which meant I always had men over in midfield to facilitate a good pressing game. Im really struggling to adapt to having lesser bodies in the middle now, and how to set up defensively in particular. I dont know if it's possible to maintain the same pressing game with only three or four in the midfield strata.

[CloudKing]

Can I ask wha team you are and how you are doing?

I really want to try and get a good attacking diamond going, but I can never seem to get it. I want it to be more direct than possession based, but still like to incorporate counter-pressing. I've never really been comfortable sitting back and playing the tradiitonal counter.

I use this Guide to adapt to different opposition (I never change my width though) http://www.guidetofootballmanager.com/match-day/preparing-for-the-match/tactical-planning

For what You want I would maybe use something Similar but with higher tempo and/or a more attacking mentality, maybe more direct passing and changing the roles/Positions to what You want making sure to reference the pairs and combinations and Twelve step guides threads that are Stickied on this Forum and read this http://www.guidetofootballmanager.com/tactics they're what Helped me Improve massively.

[spaced33]

I have found that both the wing backs and the front three can be somewhat isolated.

The wing backs when the ball goes out wide, as the front three are usually well marked and it's difficult getting the middle two to support while maintaining defensive shape.

The front three can also be a bit isolated at times once the balls sets forward to them, as (for similar reasons) I don't seem to be able to get runners up to support them.

I had trying to play a bit more direct and at a higher tempo, but maybe u need to allow the midfield more time to get up and support. And

I'm also unsure about how to set my defensive line. I would like to go high to keep my team more compact and therefore make it easier for players to find each other and play triangles. However, I don't know if the diamond is really the best formation to press with as you end up pulling players from the middle and negating it's main strength defensively. However, I think maybe a 4-3-1-2 diamond should help in that regard, by having the middle three wider, and leaving two men holding the defensive line even if one player goes wide to press.

On the other hand, by dropping deeper you leave more space between the defensive, midfield and attacking units with leads to the aforementioned isolation.

I have always played with just one up front for the last three or four versions, which meant I always had men over in midfield to facilitate a good pressing game. Im really struggling to adapt to having lesser bodies in the middle now, and how to set up defensively in particular. I dont know if it's possible to maintain the same pressing game with only three or four in the midfield strata.

I've found so far that it can be very effective against sides that come out and attack you. Created 9 ccc against Arsenal on the way to a 3-1 win as an example. But I have found that against an opponent that sits back and defends it seems to struggle a lot more - 0 ccc against QPR in the league cup on the way to a 2-0 loss. I have a fairly direct style of play so I'm going to try dropping the tempo against the smaller sides and drop back to a control setup and try and probe for gaps and see how it goes. I may even drop my dlpd into the dm strata and move the trequartista into the mc strata and go for a patient probing buildup.

[Sussex Hammer]

I love the narrow diamond and used it in FM14 but can't get it to work in FM15 as for some reason lateral movement in players seems worse than it was in `14. There seems no way to get the midfield two to cover wide and have tried several roles in the CM positions. This leaves the wing backs extremely isolated. May have something to do with the central midfield bunching together which I read about somewhere. The forwards seem the same seemingly rarely pulling wide so the front three get extremely bunched offering no width. It seems that "move into channels" is about "vertical movement" between the lines according to the description which could be half the problem. I find players using that PI seem to run away from the ball whereas I think "move into channels" should be lateral movement to the width of the pitch. Maybe a shout of "play wider" would help I haven't yet tried that.

[renato.]

I love the narrow diamond and used it in FM14 but can't get it to work in FM15 as for some reason lateral movement in players seems worse than it was in `14. There seems no way to get the midfield two to cover wide and have tried several roles in the CM positions. This leaves the wing backs extremely isolated. May have something to do with the central midfield bunching together which I read about somewhere. The forwards seem the same seemingly rarely pulling wide so the front three get extremely bunched offering no width. It seems that "move into channels" is about "vertical movement" between the lines according to the description which could be half the problem. I find players using that PI seem to run away from the ball whereas I think "move into channels" should be lateral movement to the width of the pitch. Maybe a shout of "play wider" would help I haven't yet tried that.

Have you played some games after 15.1.4? If yes, you feel the same difficulties?

[Moose-Stuff-For-Money]

I love the narrow diamond and used it in FM14 but can't get it to work in FM15 as for some reason lateral movement in players seems worse than it was in `14. There seems no way to get the midfield two to cover wide and have tried several roles in the CM positions. This leaves the wing backs extremely isolated. May have something to do with the central midfield bunching together which I read about somewhere. The forwards seem the same seemingly rarely pulling wide so the front three get extremely bunched offering no width. It seems that "move into channels" is about "vertical movement" between the lines according to the description which could be half the problem. I find players using that PI seem to run away from the ball whereas I think "move into channels" should be lateral movement to the width of the pitch. Maybe a shout of "play wider" would help I haven't yet tried that.

I agree with nearly all the above and this years FM has been more difficult thus far to implement a decent narrow diamond. I just simply couldn't crack it, but have chipped away and have found something that looks like it may yield results. I use a HB to split the defence to provide a bit more defensive width and free up CB's to defend the space left by my WB's. Then 2 CM one support one attack both told to move into the channels AND run wide with ball, the idea being that it seems the only way to widen up the diamond in possession. At the tip I use an Enganche a static creative force who threads in balls for my mobile strikers One DLFs (instucted to move into channels, RWWB, roam, dribble more) and an AFa (instructed to move into channels, and hold up ball) so far its working beautifully. I emply a short sharp passing style, very pleasing on the eye, trying to make the most of movement around the EN.

It is early days yet mind and last time I thought I was onto something I ended up astonishingly wrong.

[Bittah Dreamer]

I had a Treq at the type but found he was just all over the place and didn't provide the link I wanted. I'm not sure about the enganche, as I would prefer him to offer a bit more defensively and better movement, but tried an AP(a) there for one friendly and it went well.

I went for a flat 3 in the middle to provide better pressing and coverage, but with a DLP(d) who seems to stay pretty deep.

[isignedupfornorealreason]

When I was reading up on the 4-4-2 diamond on the tactics websites, the key points seemed to be;

1) Attacking wing backs to provide width (WB/A or CWB if you must)

2) A defensive tip that offers an 'outlet' if the ball is dead (HB or DM) - But a Regista works here just as well as the man is there as a shield anyway.

3) The two CM's must be 'shuttlers' (BBM and/or RP) shuttling roles apparently defend and move up to attack, but aren't playmakers, not strictly anyway.

4) The tip is the de facto 'playmaker' so the AMC is an (AP) in most cases.

5) The forwards are usually a DLF/AF combination with the intent to spread wide (move into channels).

That's the very basics as I understand it, of course it can be modified to suit.

[dribbler]

there's a guy called "statistical approach" who's posted videos on you tube using the narrow diamond with Liverpool...in particular there's a 20 minute video explaining his system on FMScout (I think)...so I went and tried his system with some relatively minor changes and I can confirm it works quite well...(I was narrowly top of the league after 12 games)

it's interested me enough that I'm going to start a new game using some of his ideas but more heavily modified with some of my own

in a nutshell his wingbacks sit pretty deep doing lots of tackling and pressing and he uses player instructions to get width from his strikers and central midfielders...and his double trequarista + shadow striker idea works well...(he got 35 goals out of Ballotelli)

[Sussex Hammer]

Have you played some games after 15.1.4? If yes, you feel the same difficulties?

Yep same difficulties although not quite as bad. Tried PI's on the CM's, tried a play wider TI and even pulled the AM back to the middle of the CM's to try and make him into a CM/AM hybrid but to no avail.

Will watch this thread with interest.

[AndySummers]

I am currently using a diamond as my set away formation with Arsenal, after experiencing real difficulties with a 41221 (wingers) formation and then using a controlled version of my home advanced 442, which did a reasonable job defensively but was a little static offensively. I have always really enjoyed watching raiding wingbacks irl; whether modern-day Baines and Coleman at Everton or the Cafu and Candela days at Roma. I wanted to replicate that in my own style, and also set myself a challenge as winger-based formations seem(ed) over-powerful on the Beta.

The premise of my diamond is a controlled style, taking possession from the opposition and pressure from the backline. However I don't want tiki-taka. Thus we play shorter passing combined with a higher tempo, ignoring both retain possession (unless to kill off a game) and lower tempo. The wingbacks provide the width in the diamond, so they are defaulted to attack duty as standard; this provides ammunition from wide, whilst tackling harder and closing down more gives a really aggressive duo that contribute enormously to the energetic midfield and really force opponents to struggle through a block midfield. It can leave gaps in-behind when the AI are using advanced wingers, but that is the risk; equally it forces those wingers out of dangerous positions. I also use stay wider against some opposition tactics.

The anchor man is the next critical role. I considered an anchor, half-back and standard defensive midfielder. All have their qualities, but I felt the DM could be caught out of position, whilst the half-back may sit too deep and leave a gap at the base of midfield. An anchor seems to have that balance between rigidity and also occasionally allowing the centrebacks to move wider into coverage.

The two central midfielders are players I wanted to slide into all-purpose roles. With two aggressive wingbacks, I felt that coverage was the foremost requirement. That led to a box-to-box selection, one of my favourite FM roles. Competent defensively, contributes to the physical play, breaks forward into attacking positions. That has been combined with a central midfielder on support duty and hold position. I think the CM role is quite underused; the descriptive would indicate a player who is a bit one-dimensional and lacks certain attributes, I see it much more as a player who will offer a range of abilities without specialisation, a runner. Hold position selected to give a little extra rigidity, but in-play it still does see the player contributing to breaks.

The front three I chose in complement to each other, with movement as the key and chief theme. With such a stout midfield barrier behind, the attacking midfielder on attack duty was an easy selection. Both playmaker and mimicking a shadow striker, a player whom would aggressively push into the box and offer another option for the cross from the wingbacks. The AM needs space and movement in-front (and is set to more direct passes to take advantage of this), so I went for a complete forward. Someone mentioned problems with lateral movement earlier? This was my solution. A CF on support should offer that wide play, and I combined it with move into channels (which I have always associated with lateral). The other striker is an advanced forward, another role which should theoretically dovetail with wide-movement. I also occasionally set run wide with ball.

So far the formation is working well. I had it gaining tactical familiarity throughout the latter half of the 2014-15 season and debuted it in the final game of the season, a controlled 0-0 at Swansea. Since then it has won all seven pre-season games against mid-range opposition and Wolfsburg. I had two bogey teams last year, Newcastle and Man Utd, failing to win any of the 7 appearances against either. Coincidentally my opening two fixtures of 2015-16 were Newcastle and Man Utd. I defeated Newcastle 1-2 at St James and pulled a comfortable 2-0 at the Emirates against Utd.

Thoughts to date:

The formation can be absolutely brutal on the natural counter (ie without explicitly using a countering strategy). The movement of the two strikers pulls opposing defences into unnatural areas and the AM pulls off both spectacular long-range passes and also is a real threat in the six-yard box when play stretches wider. The two central midfielders are also a huge danger, and there are frequent phases of play with five central players naturally pushing forward when possession is won in devastating fashion, in addition to the two wingbacks.

A good example so far, a 0-6 pre-season win at Brondby. A lot of the goals/chances were created through the natural countering action rather than controlled possession.

For me the TIs should take advantage of this countering possibility, hence the use of higher tempo to get the ball into the right areas quickly (without playing in a non-desired direct fashion).

[Bittah Dreamer]

there's a guy called "statistical approach" who's posted videos on you tube using the narrow diamond with Liverpool...in particular there's a 20 minute video explaining his system on FMScout (I think)...so I went and tried his system with some relatively minor changes and I can confirm it works quite well...(I was narrowly top of the league after 12 games)

it's interested me enough that I'm going to start a new game using some of his ideas but more heavily modified with some of my own

in a nutshell his wingbacks sit pretty deep doing lots of tackling and pressing and he uses player instructions to get width from his strikers and central midfielders...and his double trequarista + shadow striker idea works well...(he got 35 goals out of Ballotelli)

What are your tweaks can I ask?

I tried it, but am not too sure about the double Treq myself. It seems that they roam about a little too much, and there doesn't seem to be enough of an in the box presence at an early stage of attacks. Instead you have to wait for one of the Treqs or Shadow Striker to make their way into position after the play has developed.

Only tried it in two friendlies so far though (both draws against Chinese opposition).

Admittedly, I didn't like his wingbacks set up and put them as on support or attack, but would have thought that would have encourage the forward players to stay centrally if anything.

[llama3]

The advice I can give daleuk8:

Basically your Diamond has fallen into the trap of most diamond midfields - all play is funneled through the AMC. To be honest, Sterling is totally wasted there. Re-read the description, do you honestly want Sterling to work hard defensively as his main role? It is easy to mark a Static AMC out of the game. Sterling has superb dribbling and needs to get forward, or pull wide. I would suggest AMC(A) probably because he is particularly direct & creative. What you then need in your central 3 remaining, is another player to support the attack (BBM(S) or CM(A)) - to attack the space vacated by your AMC. Seeing as you have a HB, a DLP(S) is an excellent player to complement him, as he will drop deeper as well to link up with the HB. I would suggest the DLP(S) is a good fit for someone like Joe Allen, who sits a touch deeper in midfield and keeps it moving. Having the DLP(S) on the same side as the CWB(A) would also be an excellent idea. Your Team Instructions looked fine on first look, so just get these roles right. You need movement in them, and depth to attack.

[colinho]

4-4-2 diamond is a frustrating tactic to pull off in my opinion. Takes a bit of work to get it going properly. Liverpool controlled by the AI have a brilliant 4-4-2 diamond. Would love to know what roles/instructions the AI is using!

[renato.]

4-4-2 diamond is a frustrating tactic to pull off in my opinion. Takes a bit of work to get it going properly. Liverpool controlled by the AI have a brilliant 4-4-2 diamond. Would love to know what roles/instructions the AI is using!

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/405714-Changing-the-FM15-tactics-screen

You can download this to get able to see the players roles.

[Fosse]

I'm playing one with Nantes atm, it's pretty solid and getting decent results.

GK-d

Wb-s

Cd-d

Cd-d

Cwb

DM-d

Btb

Dlp-s

Am-A

AF

DLF-s

[Moose-Stuff-For-Money]

The advice I can give daleuk8:

Basically your Diamond has fallen into the trap of most diamond midfields - all play is funneled through the AMC. To be honest, Sterling is totally wasted there. Re-read the description, do you honestly want Sterling to work hard defensively as his main role? It is easy to mark a Static AMC out of the game. Sterling has superb dribbling and needs to get forward, or pull wide. I would suggest AMC(A) probably because he is particularly direct & creative. What you then need in your central 3 remaining, is another player to support the attack (BBM(S) or CM(A)) - to attack the space vacated by your AMC. Seeing as you have a HB, a DLP(S) is an excellent player to complement him, as he will drop deeper as well to link up with the HB. I would suggest the DLP(S) is a good fit for someone like Joe Allen, who sits a touch deeper in midfield and keeps it moving. Having the DLP(S) on the same side as the CWB(A) would also be an excellent idea. Your Team Instructions looked fine on first look, so just get these roles right. You need movement in them, and depth to attack.

Then what are your takes on the Enganche? He is slightly more static in nature, although perhaps his circle of movement is just less than others. I have one at the tip of my diamond and he is incredibly effective. I use CMa/s as my midfield two they are roles which are under used in my opinion and they open up lots of PI's which enable you to mold them how you see fit.

[llama3]

An Enganche is not something I have tried personally. I believe, according to those who have used one though, that he has excellent off the ball movement, just in a more central area of the pitch.

[colinho]

Even with the new official roles thanks to the latest SI update, I still can't see what roles Liverpool are using...

[Chlorice10]

The advice I can give daleuk8:

Basically your Diamond has fallen into the trap of most diamond midfields - all play is funneled through the AMC. To be honest, Sterling is totally wasted there. Re-read the description, do you honestly want Sterling to work hard defensively as his main role? It is easy to mark a Static AMC out of the game. Sterling has superb dribbling and needs to get forward, or pull wide. I would suggest AMC(A) probably because he is particularly direct & creative. What you then need in your central 3 remaining, is another player to support the attack (BBM(S) or CM(A)) - to attack the space vacated by your AMC. Seeing as you have a HB, a DLP(S) is an excellent player to complement him, as he will drop deeper as well to link up with the HB. I would suggest the DLP(S) is a good fit for someone like Joe Allen, who sits a touch deeper in midfield and keeps it moving. Having the DLP(S) on the same side as the CWB(A) would also be an excellent idea. Your Team Instructions looked fine on first look, so just get these roles right. You need movement in them, and depth to attack.

i know this might be off topic but any advice on how to counter team like spurs/chelsea and team that play wide player in AM strata ? strugging with them since its all the time 2v1 against my full back and free crosses that result in goals

[dribbler]

What are your tweaks can I ask?

I tried it, but am not too sure about the double Treq myself. It seems that they roam about a little too much, and there doesn't seem to be enough of an in the box presence at an early stage of attacks. Instead you have to wait for one of the Treqs or Shadow Striker to make their way into position after the play has developed.

Only tried it in two friendlies so far though (both draws against Chinese opposition).

Admittedly, I didn't like his wingbacks set up and put them as on support or attack, but would have thought that would have encourage the forward players to stay centrally if anything.

My problem is that I've come from FM12 to FM15 so I'm pretty inexperienced at this version and I've not played enough to nail down what I do and don't like yet.

I like what his wingbacks do defensively...but I tried WB support and DLP defend to compensate...I thought that worked well

I'm doing much more pressing through opposition instructions...a real 90 minutes of fury...they hunt the ball in packs...I think this is working well so far

I like whipped crosses

I'm trying works ball into box but I'm unsure if that's a good or bad idea

So far I've been hampered by a big injury to Sturridge but my pre-season was way better with my changes than without...posession is higher...I have far fewer shots overall but my shot-on-target percentage is way better

Obviously "tactical approach" got bucket-loads of goals from his Trequaristas but yes I would speculate that other roles may also work well so long as your strikers have the correct footedness for their crossing

Basically my tweaks seem to be doing what I want tactically but that's only a tentative opinion at this stage