The Mentality Ladder: A Practical Framework for Understanding Fluidity and Duty

[THOG]

1- If I set Very Rigid or Rigid, where everyone have their role and stick to that, can I play without specialist roles? With these in mind, if I select more generic roles like BBM/CM/BBM/DM(S), will my players be too static and don't offer much movement between the lines? I learned that, if this systems work (like others ofc), 1/2 players moving between the lines are essential (supporting DMC, winger cutting inside, etc). Will this happen if I pick that fluidity?

Using generalist roles won't really affect movement in that way. If you combine rigid settings with generalist roles, they will play what you might think of as very efficient, mechanical football in terms of on-the-ball decisions. You won't have players trying the spectacular or breaking from their instructions very often to create openings. Basically, you will be telling the players to play with cold, surgical precision and, without the freedom to mix things up, they will need to be good enough to execute your style of play to perfection.

Alternately, you can play "Very Fluid" with "Be More Disciplined" to get a compact shape where players adhere more closely to the limitations of their roles but are much more likely to overlap.

2- On the other hand, if I select Fluid or Very Fluid, will the team keep the shape? I mean this is perfect, I guess, to remain compact and make everyone attack and defend which is one of the points of the approach I want. But I don't see Mourinho, Trap or Capello in the dressing room say'in: "just go out there and play on your own. You don't have any tactical responsibility". Lol

Could you point me in some direction? I've read your guide about this but would like to read your opinion. Want to understand the "why's". And fluidity confuses me.

Yes, they'll keep shape. If you're concerned about roaming, it's the same on every fluidity setting. "Stick to Positions" will remove the instruction for all roles unless you assign a personal instruction.

[jukilo]

Thanks for your answer.

See, what confuses me the most is the idea that Chelsea during Mou's first reign was playing with a rigid approach. However they didn't use any specialist role. Will that team be a good example of your answer to the 1st part of my post? They play a fast counter-attacking game where everyone knows where would be colleagues, where to run, stick to instructions and be very disciplined in the tactical sense. Even the Trap teams are considered to be too one dimensional and predictable in their style of play.

Or maybe Balanced would be a good idea.

If it was you, and want to play an highly organized game (compact shape, very hard to break down and winning 2-0, 2-1, 1-0, knowing what to do in every moment of the game, etc), which fluidity will you pick? This is so confusing. Everything seems reasonable to me and I don't know from where to start.

[THOG]

There isn't necessarily a right or wrong answer, and it depends on the squad and precise style of play you want to achieve with those players. There are a lot of options, but there isn't a single correct option. At the same time, this gives you the flexibility to adapt to different situations.

[THOG]

And you could certainly make the case that Mourinho would be an example of someone who prefers a rigid (or at least, more disciplined) approach but only uses one or two specialist roles.

[Taleron]

Just wanted to chime in that I really found this thread to be helpful, and agree with the others that the Liverpool set of posts showing off how to implement some of the knowledge about the mentality ladder really was excellent. It turned out that my long-term save has been working at getting a 4-1-4-1 right, and the ideas about Plans A, B, C have really revitalized my squad. We've scored for fun, especially utilizing Plan A; we recently had a match where we had 40% possession and 7 CCC's, so the concept of Plan A really has shined through for my team. Well done!

[THOG]

Just wanted to chime in that I really found this thread to be helpful, and agree with the others that the Liverpool set of posts showing off how to implement some of the knowledge about the mentality ladder really was excellent. It turned out that my long-term save has been working at getting a 4-1-4-1 right, and the ideas about Plans A, B, C have really revitalized my squad. We've scored for fun, especially utilizing Plan A; we recently had a match where we had 40% possession and 7 CCC's, so the concept of Plan A really has shined through for my team. Well done!

Very glad to hear it was useful for you. The Liverpool posts were very much a product of working with the initial feedback (both positive and negative) to take the step from some of the more abstract, computer game-y ideas of the original posts into something more firmly rooted in football terms (which was the original intent); the emphasis on team shape was not something that occurred to me at first but I'm really pleased that the ideas went in that direction. Once I've had some time with FM15, I hope to start on the second edition of this thread, and it will be much more like those posts with much less emphasis on explaining hidden game mechanics with complex metaphors.

[ky jelly]

This may sound like a silly question but I'd like to know what's the difference between Very Rigid + more roaming vs Very Fluid + more disciplined? Would they resemble each other in terms of how they are set up?

Also are there any difference using Counter + push higher up/much higher up vs Control + drop deeper?

[THOG]

This may sound like a silly question but I'd like to know what's the difference between Very Rigid + more roaming vs Very Fluid + more disciplined? Would they resemble each other in terms of how they are set up?

Also are there any difference using Counter + push higher up/much higher up vs Control + drop deeper?

Those are both very good questions. The defensive line instructions will increase or reduce your d-line setting to approximately the same setting as you get on another mentality setting. For example, push higher will take Counter to around Standard's default setting while push much higher will take Counter to around Control's default setting. The effects will be slightly different given that mentality will be different, but you shouldn't notice any major difference. Defensive line controls two things: how quickly the defence moves up in possession and how quickly and how deep they drop back out of possession. Out of possession, the effects should be about the same, but in possession, a more attacking mentality will see them quicker to push up even if you're playing with approximately the same d-line settings. The tricky thing about defensive line settings is that their effects are heavily dependent on context. So, for example, you can play "Much Deeper" on a defensive mentality, your centrebacks will still approach the halfway line if the opposition is parking the bus.

Fluidity actually doesn't have a direct effect on roaming settings. The default roaming settings are controlled by mentality. More attacking mentalities will have a higher roaming quota and assign roaming instructions automatically to the more general roles if you don't use specialist roles that roam by default. Very Fluid with More Disciplined will reduce the amount of freedom you give your players to express themselves on the ball to approximately the same level as you would get on default Balanced. This means players in general roles and non-creative specialist roles won't be as inclined to attempt risky, ambitious moves to create an opening.

[daleuk8]

Hello,

I wondered if anyone could help me?

I have started to watch games in full. To see if I can spot thing going wrong easier. Here is my tactic:

One of the things that isn't happening is my midfielders are not playing enough balls behind the oppositions defence. How can I improve this?

[Deego619]

Just on a wim, that doesn't seem the type of system to put balls in behind. Only Coutinho is really pressing against the defensive line, Henderson will be up there too but since both Allen and Lucas are deep it creates a large gap, which I guess causes Hendo to see little of the ball to play in the likes of Coutinho.. Try Allen as a Regista?

[THOG]

Hello,

I wondered if anyone could help me?

I have started to watch games in full. To see if I can spot thing going wrong easier. Here is my tactic:

One of the things that isn't happening is my midfielders are not playing enough balls behind the oppositions defence. How can I improve this?

You need to create space behind the defence and have players with the ability to get onto balls behind the defence. You're pushing up and pressing aggressively, which will encourage your opponent to sit deeper, and your fastest player is on a support duty with Negredo up top. If you want to play a counterattacking style that tries to get balls behind the defence, drop deeper, play a more direct game at a higher tempo and play Sturridge in an attacking role.

[daleuk8]

Just on a wim, that doesn't seem the type of system to put balls in behind. Only Coutinho is really pressing against the defensive line, Henderson will be up there too but since both Allen and Lucas are deep it creates a large gap, which I guess causes Hendo to see little of the ball to play in the likes of Coutinho.. Try Allen as a Regista?

OK will give this a go.

[Valentino]

OP, this thread is simply fantastic. I keep coming back here for new ideas whenever i feel like i need to switch up my tactics.

For the past 3 days or so, I've been hard at work trying to recreate the tactical system used by Lobanovskyi's

Dynamo Kiev during the late 90s era. So i started off by watching full games from their 97/98 & 98/99 CL campaigns and i made a few observations;

-Incredibly aggressive pressing

Didn't matter if they played Rosenborg at home or Real Madrid away. A soon as the opposing team tried to move with the ball,

they'd get instantly assaulted by a group of Dynamo Kiev players. One player physically challenges the ball holder,

while the other 2-3 block off all possible passing routes.

-Everyone attacks, everyone defends.

Looking at the games, I didn't notice a clear playmaker, it seemed as though, every player, including the Central defenders,

had a licence to run at the opposition, try a long range pass or a cross from deep. Similarly, when chasing possession,

it wasn't uncommon to see Dynamo Kiev forwards chasing the ball deep within their own half.

-The back 4

Now this one's complicated, it never really stayed the same and seemed to morph between 3 different formations during a game

a flat 4

a defensive diamond

and finally, whatever this is called

As for the overall tempo and mentality, it was really hard for me to pinpoint.

They'd combine slow build up play and short passes between defenders with lightning quick counter attacks where half the team was

in the opposition area within seconds. They also had incredible movement, if for example, a central midfielder had the ball, a CD would

try to overlap from deep to make sure they had an unpredictable passing option up front, if needed.

Implementation

So my question would be, is this possible to implement in game? Here's what I've got so far;

I settled on a Very Fluid mentality early on, given the incredible movement and teamwork i witnessed while researching the team.

I also experimented with the defensive line, trying different combinations of cover/stopper and sweeper/cd to get that diamond defensive shape,

but it never looked the way i intended it to. I've been thinking about fluidity,

and maybe changing it to very rigid in an attempt to simulate the players movements closer to what I'm looking for.

Any thoughts on what i could try to make it more true to Lobanovskiy's style? I'm stuck so any ideas are welcome!

[onur7]

most enjoying, informative theoretical thread i've read since rule of six days

amazing...

just a quick question:

PART III. SOLID FOUNDATIONS: FLUID MENTALITY STRUCTURES

-------------------------------------STANDARD-------------------------------------

ML/R: Shuttle Ball

AML/R: Advanced Playmaker (All Duties): Shuttle Ball

in this case, is there a difference between this two type of player except positions on the pitch?

[THOG]

...

Interesting post. The short answer is that you can't really automate changes in defensive shape like that. Going by your description and what I know of Lobanovskyi's Kiev, your settings seem like a good approximation. For the formation, I suppose you need to decipher why those changes were being made and manually switch between 4-4-2, 5-3-2 and 4-2-2-2 (or whatever image 3 is) when appropriate.

[THOG]

most enjoying, informative theoretical thread i've read since rule of six days

amazing...

just a quick question:

PART III. SOLID FOUNDATIONS: FLUID MENTALITY STRUCTURES

-------------------------------------STANDARD-------------------------------------

ML/R: Shuttle Ball

AML/R: Advanced Playmaker (All Duties): Shuttle Ball

in this case, is there a difference between this two type of player except positions on the pitch?

The defensive shape will be different, so the defensive positioning relative to the rest of the team's shape will be different. Compared to other AMLR roles, APs will be quicker to track back to support the defence.

[onur7]

The defensive shape will be different, so the defensive positioning relative to the rest of the team's shape will be different. Compared to other AMLR roles, APs will be quicker to track back to support the defence.

thanks for your answer

ok;

i tried your liverpool possesion based 4-1-4-1 tactic (standard/fluid) with liverpool against man utd. wingers and wingbacks are very efficent (it has never been previously), and it was a very enjoyable match. but i felt it was a big gap between the midfielders and needed an AMC..

cause of this,i want to transform this tactic to a kind of 4-4-1-1 tactic for use of an AMC without a DMC with your mentality ladder (i've seen examples made by others on the previous pages)...

but the use of an AMC, I think it will lose the depth of attack. i will use the high defensive line for fill the gap between midfield and defence without a DMC...

....and the situation is becoming increasingly complicated

[htty777]

THOG, I have a question.

I want to BTB's Goal. But, This is very difficult to me.

----------------DLF(S)-------------------

-----------------AM(S)------------------

WM(A)--CM(D)-------BTB-----------WM(A)

WM(A)--------------------------------WM(S)

Balanced-Counter, TI : D-Line UP, Play wider.

I don't know what to do. Is fluidity problem? Change balanced fluidity to fluid? Help me.

[THOG]

You want your box to box midfielder to get forward into goalscoring positions, correct?

Fluidity should not have much effect on a box to box midfielder. There are a few things you can try:

(1) Increase the team mentality so he gets further forward sooner.

(2) Move your AM(S) back to MC so there is more space for the box to box midfielder to move into; it could be that having two support duty players in front of him is discouraging overlapping runs from the box to box midfielder.

(3) Instead of a box to box midfielder, play a Central Midfielder (Attack) with personal instructions to "Tight Mark," "Roam from Position," "Play Fewer Risky Passes" and "Dribble Less." His on the ball instructions will then be about the same, but the CM-A will push forward sooner.

[htty777]

Thanks, THOG.

Question.

(1) I want to play possession style, slow tempo, short pass. Like 13-14 Arsenal. But Increasing team mantality is difficult to this style.

(2) I want to play like arsenal, 4-4-1-1(4-2-3-1) tactic. But Moving AM(S) to MC, My tactics are like to 4-3-3.

(3) This is Interesting. Do you think CM(A) can contribute team's defence? I don't know.

[THOG]

Thanks, THOG.

Question.

(1) I want to play possession style, slow tempo, short pass. Like 13-14 Arsenal. But Increasing team mantality is difficult to this style.

(2) I want to play like arsenal, 4-4-1-1(4-2-3-1) tactic. But Moving AM(S) to MC, My tactics are like to 4-3-3.

(3) This is Interesting. Do you think CM(A) can contribute team's defence? I don't know.

For a slow tempo possession style, you will want to use a lower mentality while relying on TIs and duty to make your team more aggressive when necessary.

Another idea is to play the AM(S) as a Trequartista, so he will drift wider in possession. The AM(S) will tend to remain central which could be discouraging forward runs from your BTB.

A CM(A) will absolutely contribute defensively, though his forward runs means he's more likely to be caught out of position when the opposition counterattacks.

[htty777]

Thanks, THOG.

I will change AM(S) to Treq.

[htty777]

I did it, THOG!!

I don't use Treq Because

1)In Balanced Fluidity, Attack Duty Playmaker is like Second ST. This is not what i want.

2)I don't want to use playmaker.

3)But, I need Treq's wide movement.

Result : I use AM(S)+roaming.

Thanks THOG! My AMC-BTB is playing wonderful!!

[Double0Seven]

4-1-2-2-1 Balanced and Standard

Much higher defensive line

Shorter passing

Higher tempo

Hassle opponents

Use offside trap

Work ball into box

Play out of defence

--------------GK(D)-------------

FB(S)---CD(D)----CD(D)---WB(A)

--------------A(D)-------------

-----------CM(A)---AP(S)

W(A)----------------------IF(A)

-------------DLF(S)------------

This is currently my tactic and I have a few questions.

Im thinking of changing to control+fluid because according to your guide my midfielders will shuttle ball through defence(=through balls?) and my lone striker will penetrate gapps(=run onto the through balls?).

And my AMRL will do the same? So is control+fluid is good or would something else be better?

[lam]

A very interesting formation. HOw are you finding it working out?

I'm currently using the narrow 442 diamond from Cleons thread but was thinking about a three man DC setup with CWB's myself.

Do the DC's protect your flanks or do you find that they are better a nullifying the threat IN the box rather than outside it?

Regards

LAM

[Double0Seven]

Ill link you to my thread with all my issues: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/391044-The-flexible-4-4-1-1.-Need-help-to-getting-it-work.

Long story short: Inconsistent as hell.

DC's close down way too much, backs close down at the wrong time and most of the goals from the opponent come down the flanks. So that is definitely an issue. I have already changed some things as llama suggested me. I have the same setup but removed the high line/hassle and changed to very fluid+control. I hope it works out but only used it for 5 games(2 W, 2 L , 1 draw).

[THOG]

...

Apologies for the late response... Fluid will encourage more high risk passing from your advanced playmaker but, on a support duty, your DLF will still tend to drop off and help link up with the two wide forwards. If your objective is to play balls through to the IF and Winger, Fluid is probably the better bet with the AP more inclined to push up and play more forward passes. But by pushing high up and playing the ball short, I don't think you're likely to see too many balls played through the centre of the opposition defence, regardless of fluidity and role.

[Double0Seven]

No apologies needed Im already happy with any kind of help. I think I have already found the balance between this.

What I decided to play is:

4-1-2-2-1 Very fluid+Control

-----------GK(D)----------

FB(S)-CD-CD-WB(A)

---CM(A)---DLP(S)---

W(A)----------------IF(S)

----------DLF(S)--------

Shorter passing

Work ball into box

Play out of defence

As you said pushing higher up will reduce through balls. However I still wanted to push a bit higher up and close down a bit more so that I can still dominate most games. That's why I went for control+very fluid.

What I also wanted is that my striker would score more. I have noticed almost no through balls to the IF(A) so I changed him to IF(S). With the idea of being the creator for the DLF(S). Playing through balls on him when possible. According to your guide a AMRL on support duty will create chances which is what I want. And since my striker will be "spearhead closer to defence" I hope he won't drop deep if he sees that he IF(S) is getting the ball more and creating chances(Support duty so IF will drop a bit deeper and less attacking to right?). And if this fails then the DLF(S) up front will still link up with the forward running CM(A) and W(A).

So IF(S)= creator, DLF(S)=creator/scorer and W(A) and CM(A) scorers/runners.

I hope this makes sense and thanks again for your guide.

[nilsatis]

Hi Thog,

Wanted to say a massive thanks for putting this thread together as helped me immeasurably, just wondered if I could pick your brains a little. I started a new game with Everton where in the past I would use a Denmark 4-2-3-1 trying to replicate how they play irl and seem to have run into the same issues as allot of other people with opposition wingers having a field day so I decided to give your Liverpool tactics a try mainly to see if I could get the demark shape going forwards but gain that defensive solidarity with the wingers back at mr/ml.

First of all I ran into a few problems a I totally understand the style of play sitting deep and direct passing is going to take some particular player stats that tbh I was missing but the main problem I had was in the plan A from your original tactic you had sit much deeper as team instruction and I found the same as yourself it was defensively very very good but attacks where breaking down it just seemed the length of passing requirement or the pace of my players wasn't enough to be so deep and break forward effectively so as you seemed to do I changed to sit deeper and this improved things somewhat.

Then I got to the part of the thread where you redesigned you plan A and you seem to have decided to go back to sit much deeper was just wondering your reasons for changing back also I seem to have massive problems with the cm (d) in this tactic I have James McCarthy playing there most of the time and error prone isn't the word he's making double the mistakes of the rest of the team and it is ruining the tactic from what I can see he just doesn't seem to have passing options he's got something like 17 passing 17 technique at this point his creativity is slightly lowish at 13 but he seems like the perfect player for that roll when I remove the more direct passes TI the problem seems to half but as this is the whole point of the tactics having those deep players with a more direct passing range its kind of frustrating, I also have Gabriel Barbosa as my main striker but as soon as I have him on an Adv forward roll his game falls to bits and the assistant manager is pestering me the gap is to big between mid and att so im forced into playing him in a support roll and I think this is where the problems actually lie I don't seem to have enough players attacking the box especially with the mc (s) (ross barkely) I only put him on the adv f roll when I know the other team is going to press with a high line but still I just don't see those passes reaching him and he slowly goes down to like a 6.0 rating and doesn't get many touches.

Then the plan C tactic it is working very well up until a certain point like yourself I play this when im leading and want the players to just rest or against a big team with much higher reputation and I find myself with a similar problem of just never really being able to get out of my own half when it works it works fantastically but im lucky to get 1 or 2 shots on target granted they are usually real one on one clean cut chances and maybe im being greedy but again im finding myself way to deep with looping balls to no one being played from defence and wave after wave of pressure until finally I normally concede from the sheer number of set pieces I concede or one bit of brilliance from the opposition opens me up think my record stand against big clubs away 3 seasons in is won 1 lost 10 , so out of frustration I decided to try moving it up a counter mentality and I immediately saw a change the team didn't stand off so much and seemed to be in a much better position to start a counter but was wondering if you could give me some advice on how counter works with passing lengths on fluid? all of a sudden my defenders are trying to play Hollywood passes ( with no great success ) I have pretty much kept the team instructions from your plan c tactic more direct passes, much higher tempo and drill crosses could it be that's over kill im wondering does counter increase the passing length from the deep players significantly?

Was also wondering is there a place on the analysis tab to track mistakes I have my ui set up so I can see mistakes made per game and overall I just don't seem to be able to actually go back and watch those mistakes to find out what is happening

Thanks in advance for any help or advice you could throw my way and yeah I do realise all these things could be down to players stats and not really having the tools to do the job but I've worked hard on buying players to fit the tactic mostly trying to find players with good pace and acceleration with technique and passing ability.

[THOG]

I don't recall why I reverted back to "Much Deeper", but for the most part, I went back to the basics of the default Plan A as I was not really satisfied with the overall changes I'd made to it earlier and felt the original iteration was closer to what I'd originally wanted.

Is McCarthy making a lot of errors in possession? It may have something to do with his "Tries Killer Passes Often" PPM.

If you're finding yourself pinned back too easily when you're just trying to avoid conceding, I find it helps to push up and use more of a possession system.

The passing range settings on Counter are similar to the settings on Defensive (defend duty passes long, attack duty passes short) except Attack duty players are slightly more direct and Defend duty players are slightly less direct. It could be the increase in mentality is making your defenders try riskier passes.

I don't know of any way to see specific errors from the analysis tab.

[nilsatis]

That's kind of part of the problem I'm having with the game overall this year being honest yeah can see he's making mistakes on the stats page but watching most game's on extensive I would say 90% of them aren't shown so with nowhere I can go like the analysis tab to actually see what's happening I'm reduced to having to watch games in full seems a pretty big oversight not to have the analysis tab track mistakes I thought it was possibly the skin I was using was missing the stat somehow, and what actually constitutes a mistake turning over possession, missing a tackle or header, loosing your man to mark I guess a mixture of all these things.

Good point about the try's killer balls often PPM I guess he's playing more like a DLP when in possession and maybe forcing passes to much will try to get it untrained. Does counter edge the defensive line up as well do you know thog or is what I'm seeing with the players pressing up a little down to the slightly higher mentality's and players go one step up the ladder as it where the main thing I'm having difficulty's with this year is knowing the starting point for each mentality such as passing range differences defensive line placement I mean if the game told you ok in fluid counter you will have a medium block you would have at least something to work with as it is I feel I'm working blind

[THOG]

Yes, Counter will increase d-line and closing down settings.

You could interpret the default settings as:

Defensive = Low Block

Counter = Medium-Low

Standard = Medium

Control = Medium-High

Attacking = High

Then the Push Up/Drop Deeper instructions increase or reduce everything to approximately the settings for the next highest/lowest mentality setting, though in the attacking phase, being on a higher mentality will still see your defensive line quicker to push up.

[nilsatis]

Ok that's a big help thanks and so am I right in thinking passing ranges go more from defence to attacking the defender's passing range gets shorter and the attacking players get longer with normal being a mid point of all passing being more or less mixed going by the old slider terminology?

[THOG]

Ok that's a big help thanks and so am I right in thinking passing ranges go more from defence to attacking the defender's passing range gets shorter and the attacking players get longer with normal being a mid point of all passing being more or less mixed going by the old slider terminology?

Yes, except default Support duty passing range is the same on all mentality settings.

[bdixon]

If you were to compare the mentalities to real life teams, what would you suggest? I have an idea of a style of football I'm wanting my team to play like but having problems trying to pick the mentality.

[THOG]

If you were to compare the mentalities to real life teams, what would you suggest? I have an idea of a style of football I'm wanting my team to play like but having problems trying to pick the mentality.

I think most teams adapt based on the context and the opposition, so there aren't many teams that you can associate with just one mentality. Even teams like Bayern and Barca arguably shift between Counter and Control depending on how desperate they are for a goal.

[bdixon]

I think most teams adapt based on the context and the opposition, so there aren't many teams that you can associate with just one mentality. Even teams like Bayern and Barca arguably shift between Counter and Control depending on how desperate they are for a goal.

Maybe you can help me decided on which mentality would be best for the kind of tactic I'm trying to create what I'm trying to do is create a tactic where my team all works as a hard working unit which presses fast and aggressively from the front. I only have a few specialist roles so I was thinking fluid.

[Double0Seven]

Very fluid/control. Maybe 4-2-3-1 denmark or 4-1-4-1.

[THOG]

Maybe you can help me decided on which mentality would be best for the kind of tactic I'm trying to create what I'm trying to do is create a tactic where my team all works as a hard working unit which presses fast and aggressively from the front. I only have a few specialist roles so I was thinking fluid.

As Double0Seven said, Attacking/Control will give you fast pressing, but I think looking for players with good Aggression and Work Rate is probably the most important thing for this sort of tactic.

[bdixon]

As Double0Seven said, Attacking/Control will give you fast pressing, but I think looking for players with good Aggression and Work Rate is probably the most important thing for this sort of tactic.

I would like a slow build up type passing style. So could counter be used with a hassle TI? or would if be best to maybe use control/attacking with a decrease tempo TI selected>

[Torskus77]

I have only really just started reading this, it is a hell of a lot to take in, but it is very useful indeed. When looking at it a bit more in depth, it is obvious why some of my tactics weren't working, because the player wasn't playing the role I thought he was. I had just started a save with Liverpool before I found this bit. I am going for a totally different shape, but I am going to spend a lot of time using this thread, combined with the other big threads from llama, and wwfan putting together my tactic.

One thing I noticed, although not completely relevant to the topic, you play players out of position a lot, like really out of position like Aspas or Suarez on the right wing. I remember Cleon saying it isn't all that important providing they have the right attributes for the role. Are you re-training them or just going to keep playing them out of position so you can use them in a variety of positions ?

Thanks again for this excellent thread. I will try to post my tactic up when it's done and explain how I used your work to get there.

[htty777]

THOG, Help me.

I started to play Leverkusen. (I was fail realizing Real Ramsey in FM.)

My Plan A is conterattack. Like 04-06 chealsea.

But, My plan B is a problem. If opposite team didn't give any space to run, I don't know what to do.

I can't play possesion football Because My player have no creativity. I think pressing football(dortmund) is good choice in this case.

Question : But, My defenders are veryvery slow. About this problem, I think some TI.

1)Control,D-Line Down,Hassle

2)Control,Make CD(D) to CD©

Is this possible to apply 1or2 TI? If not, What is More good solution?

[THOG]

I would like a slow build up type passing style. So could counter be used with a hassle TI? or would if be best to maybe use control/attacking with a decrease tempo TI selected>

It depends on how much forward passing you want. Counter will generally lead to more low risk/lateral passing if your opponents are standing off while Control/Attacking will see your players trying to advance the ball as soon as possible, even if they take more time to pick a pass on a lower tempo.

[THOG]

One thing I noticed, although not completely relevant to the topic, you play players out of position a lot, like really out of position like Aspas or Suarez on the right wing. I remember Cleon saying it isn't all that important providing they have the right attributes for the role. Are you re-training them or just going to keep playing them out of position so you can use them in a variety of positions ?

It's less important for attacking players than defensive players, but I've found any top quality player can handle the mental penalty of playing out of position. With lower quality players who already have low mental attributes, you'll run into more trouble.

And yes, I was retraining them when I was doing this save. In most cases, positional retraining doesn't take very long.

[THOG]

THOG, Help me.

I started to play Leverkusen. (I was fail realizing Real Ramsey in FM.)

My Plan A is conterattack. Like 04-06 chealsea.

But, My plan B is a problem. If opposite team didn't give any space to run, I don't know what to do.

I can't play possesion football Because My player have no creativity. I think pressing football(dortmund) is good choice in this case.

Question : But, My defenders are veryvery slow. About this problem, I think some TI.

1)Control,D-Line Down,Hassle

2)Control,Make CD(D) to CD©

Is this possible to apply 1or2 TI? If not, What is More good solution?

Yes, it's possible.

[fraeyke]

Hi hand of God!

Thank you for taking the time to write such an incredible comprehensive guide...

Personally i have difficulty to fully understand it.. :-) probably because my main language is not english.

Still i was wondering if you could spare some time to make me finetune an idea i have with my team.

The idea is to deliver fast and deep passes to my wingers, who cross it to my Targetman. ( not really an original idea i know )

I'm playing with Antwerp (Belgian 2nd div) and have a (slighty above) mediocre team.

I have a decent targetman, a fast striker with poor technique, wingers with bad crossing, decent technique but not physicly strong midfield, slow dc's and ok wingbacks with poor crossing still.

WIth this in mind is there any system you can advise me to use?

Atm i'm using this setup:

But with this setup i'm unable to get my wingers behind the defense and deliver crosses for the Targetman.. they cant dribble past their man (they are not that good in it anyway).

Most of the times i'm favorite to win the match and i notice lots of teams crawl back and keep space tight... yet this is what i need to use the speed of my striker.

I dont HAVE to use the 4-4-2 but i thought it would be the best to have a Tm&af combo with wingers..

Any help would be most appreciated.

grtz

[THOG]

For a fast or aggressive style based on quick, high-risk passes to powerful forwards, I would recommend a higher mentality, especially if you are a higher reputation team in your division. With Defensive/Counter, you will get deep passes from your DCs but your attacking players will play a more technical game, and if your opponent is sitting back, the mentality will encourage your midfield to hold onto the ball. I would use something like Balanced or Fluid/Control or Attacking combined with a Play Wider TI.

[danthemanwhocan]

I havent manager to digest all of the information in the thread. It was a monumental gospel of information.

Is it a fair assumption that Fluidity is worked best with team instructions. You have a general Idea of how you want to play but you will allow the players to make their own decisions based on certain factors.

Then Rigid works best with a multitude of player instructions.

Is that correct or is it the other way around?

[THOG]

I havent manager to digest all of the information in the thread. It was a monumental gospel of information.

Is it a fair assumption that Fluidity is worked best with team instructions. You have a general Idea of how you want to play but you will allow the players to make their own decisions based on certain factors.

Then Rigid works best with a multitude of player instructions.

Is that correct or is it the other way around?

I would say it depends on the instruction. Something like "Pass Into Space" will make the more limited specialist roles more like generalist roles, so you might want to consider how it will affect specific players in a rigid system. On the other hand, something like "Look for Overlap" or "Play Out of Defence" will alter generalist roles to have a more specific function, so it works both ways. Very general instructions like "Drop Deeper" or "Higher Tempo" don't really have any bearing on the whole idea of fluidity. And then using "Be More Disciplined" or "Be More Expressive" would arguably call for using, respectively, more or less specialist roles on a given setting.

[Deego619]

After reading this thread probably twice over, and many trials and even more errors, I've finally found something that seems to work for my team.

Starting off:

I manage QPR in the 5th season. My squad is around top 8 quality, with good balance all round in terms of positions.

I still play at Loftus Road, a small compact pitch by default, and can't be changed until I build a new stadium. I ignored this fact for a long time, wanting to play direct old fashioned English 4-4-2 because of the fact that I have the strongest (Strength attribute) team in the division, with good pace on the flanks, so I assumed that I could play similar to Stoke, or the user that played as the Ivory Coast in the World Cup thread.

The problem was that I was focusing my attacks down the flanks, getting my wingers to out pace their full backs into space that simply wasn't there due to the pitch size.

After nearly getting sacked by Christmas, I decided to reload the save on the 3rd of July before the season began and have another go.

My Squad

Midfield heavy, and perhaps lacking real quality depth in the winger department.

I decided to adopt a slower tempo possession game because the only Striker I have with any real pace is new signing Nouha Dicko, Austin likes playing with his back to goal and launching first time shots, whilst Longo is more of a jack of all trades for strikers with no real powerful attribute. Thus, there's no real reason for getting my team to play through balls.

Very Rigid because I noticed that anytime I create tactics I always want players to do specific things and I thought continuously picking Fluid/Very Fluid wasn't beneficial.

Counter because I felt that would benefit a shorter passing game, I read that in wwfan's Barcelona thread.

TIs:

Short Passing

Work ball into box

Play Wider (Use the whole of the narrow pitch, give no space to attack my flanks)

Much higher defensive line

Roam from positions

Hassle opponents

Get stuck in

- I gave both my CBs and RB "pass shorter"

- LM is "Cut inside" and "Dribble more"

- RM is "Cut inside", "Cross less", "Shoot more" and "Dribble more"

If I'm playing away on a large pitch, I change my striker to an attack duty and change the TIs from "Shorter Passing" to "Retain Possession" and "Pass into Space", bringing on Dicko or Longo to play the role. If playing against a far weaker opponent, I do that same and add in "Much higher tempo".

Defensive Tactic

A more defensive set up that I use against the 4-2-3-1 Denmarks, Liverpool were always my bogey team last season and I've just stuffed them 3-0. I have retrained Javi Espinosa, a natural creative CM, to play up front as a "False 9" to give my team a creative outlet up front where we'll need it.

Same TIs except I've taken out "Play wider" and put in "Drill crosses".

- LM and RM with the same PIs

- B2B has "Dribble more"

I'm getting good results so I'll continue to play and tweak as I see fit, but I was just wondering if there was any obvious flaws in here to a more accomplished FM brain than mine.