The Mentality Ladder: A Practical Framework for Understanding Fluidity and Duty

[thomit]

Right, I'll post this question here in the hope that THoG, or anyone else, knows the answer. I tried posting it in the editors forum, but no luck.

Question is: What is it in the AI manager's stats or preferences that determines whether he will play Very Fluid, or Very Rigid tactics? Or something in between?

[m83]

Just wanted to have some feedback about one specific formation and Roles/Duty´s assignements based on this guide.

So, i wanted to use the 3-5-2 whit WB´s and AMC and choose Very Fluid Philosophie and Counter Mentality whit the TI´s More Direct, Higher Tempo and Drop Deeper:

My team setup his has follow:

GK: Golkeeper Defend;

WB´s: Wingback Attack;

CDR: Central Defender Stopper;

CDC: Central Defender Defend;

CDL: Central Defender Stopper;

CM´s: DLP Support;

AMC: Shadow Striker Attack;

STCR: Advanced Forward Attack;

STCL: Trequartista Attack.

Feedback will be much appreciatted,

Ty

M83

[THOG]

Do you have any specific concerns?

[m83]

I just wanted to know if that setup suits a counter attacking style of play, If its unbalanced, etc,

I do know that judging by the twelve step guide it has too many specialist roles, but i am so frustrated at times that this forum his my last resort.

Another thing his that by looking at games i seam to suffer mots of my goals from crosses, deep or byline and alwais to the far post.

Is this normal whit this kind of formation?

Ty

[THOG]

I just wanted to know if that setup suits a counter attacking style of play, If its unbalanced, etc,

I do know that judging by the twelve step guide it has too many specialist roles, but i am so frustrated at times that this forum his my last resort.

Another thing his that by looking at games i seam to suffer mots of my goals from crosses, deep or byline and alwais to the far post.

Is this normal whit this kind of formation?

Ty

Yes, it's a narrow formation, so your wide defenders will be exposed. Also, the fact that you're only using two MCs will exacerbate that and leave you exposed through midfield as well. The DCs should be able to double up on forwards, but you're going to be vulnerable to midfield runners attacking crosses. One thing you can try to tighten up defensively is to pull the shadow striker into central midfield. You might also want to tell your wingbacks to "Close Down More" so they start moving onto opposition wingers before they're in a decent crossing position.

You should also be aware that your wingbacks need to be athletic and strong defensively. Even if you mainly envision them as attacking players, this system puts them under a lot of pressure and they need to be able to deal with it.

[peteb66]

Hey THOG, I was curious wether or not you could take a look at my 'Return of Zemanlandia' thread and help me regarding the fluidty of his system and his tactics.

[m83]

Hi THOG,

Thanks for the reply.

I just wanted to clear out something:

Since im to exposed both in the wings and trough the middle, i decided to change the trio midfield, and adopt a DMC-MC-MC.

But my real question his whit the lack of protection int he wings, mostly if the oppositon plays whit DR+MR/AMR or DL+ML/AML , so, since im playing a deep line im going to be vulnerable for crosses, and i wanted to know if by using OP´s like Closing Down Always + Show on to Left Foot for the MR/AMR, making them cutting inside where i Have 3 CB´s + DMC would be better at protecting my weaknesses, that is, the exposure on the wings.

I never had use the OP´in other versions, and i wanted to know what is your input of them or there use, or if by simply chossing the right roles and duty it would be enough.

Ty.

M83

[THOG]

Hi THOG,

Thanks for the reply.

I just wanted to clear out something:

Since im to exposed both in the wings and trough the middle, i decided to change the trio midfield, and adopt a DMC-MC-MC.

But my real question his whit the lack of protection int he wings, mostly if the oppositon plays whit DR+MR/AMR or DL+ML/AML , so, since im playing a deep line im going to be vulnerable for crosses, and i wanted to know if by using OP´s like Closing Down Always + Show on to Left Foot for the MR/AMR, making them cutting inside where i Have 3 CB´s + DMC would be better at protecting my weaknesses, that is, the exposure on the wings.

I never had use the OP´in other versions, and i wanted to know what is your input of them or there use, or if by simply chossing the right roles and duty it would be enough.

Ty.

M83

Honestly, I don't know and it probably depends on who you're facing. There's a compromise inherent to every decision. In the case of always closing down a wide attacker, you might run the risk of stretching your defensive line, pulling a wide DC out of position and exposing more space through the centre. This isn't just because the DC might come out to cancel out the overload but also because your WBLR may start applying pressure high up and leave the flank exposed behind him.

This is the sort of dilemma that attacking width is supposed to create, especially when you're dealing with flank overloads. Do you just accept the crosses or do you risk leaving central space for an MC or wide attacker to move into? Usually, a defensive team that sits deep will be happy to deal with crosses, but that's going to ask more of your central defenders, especially if the opposition has big forwards. "Show Onto Weaker Foot" is probably a more measured way of dealing with crosses, though it can also leave the attacker well positioned to cut inside and overload the middle (or take a shot from distance) There's not necessarily a right answer one way or the other unless you have a specific opponent in mind.

[mimisv]

a spreadsheet would be amazing with this

guide

[Fabian Jonsson]

Why is this thread not stickied anymore? It's the only thread I consistently find myself wanting to go back to!

[rninejr]

hello THOG. I'm forced to post here coz of ur determined explanation about general framework of FM here. i mean, i play this game since CM 2002 n there were few ppl who dedicated themselves to share something like this. mostly just sharing their tactic then "this is perfect tactic, this is brilliant" about their own tactic. kinda bored of it. but this post gave me a completely new perspective about Football manager. before this, i couldnt completely understand about how mentality and fluidity (or just creative freedom in much older editions) settings works even though i've been playing this series for so long. well partially thanks to the brand new tactical overhaul in this edition that force me to works harder to be fluent in both mentality and fluidity setting.

Long ago I was like just another stubborn FM player who thinks that "there must be a perfect tactic, so perfect that i wont need to change/tweak it each game". then i grew older along with this series n my view has been completedly changed. to all other players, we cant win without tweaking our tactic, especially at the match day. even Guardiola with his barca team back then was quite adaptive to opponents strategy. take a look at Barca players average position n tactical analysing at zonal marking. Yes, they played sharp short pass n keep possession but their movement n tactical positioning weren't 100% same for each game. basically, there is no perfect tactic in football. each tactic has their pros n cons. A good tactic is one that capable to cover their own weaknesses and exposing the weaknesses of opponent's tactic. n u need to tweak ur tactic frequently in order to do this, depend on ur opponent. I did this, mostly on OI and individual instruction of my players, n sometimes TI (im not a fan of drastically tweaking at match day, yeah, but still i was forced to tweak drastically in rare occasions XD). I give THOG a credit for explaining that this article isn't made to be obeyed but rather to be learned so other playes can increase their tactical awareness in this game.

all rite, now back to THOG again. I need ur opinion about my tactic

I admit that I'm a fan of possession football, n ofc tiki taka. but I realize that the fallen of Barca's tiki taka mainly because they were quite stubborn. sometimes they could win and turn the tide if they played long ball n fastbreak but they didnt. Cant blame them since most of their players have been taugh to play short simple passses since their childhood.

this article, along with wwfan's representation about barca's tiki taka force me to overhaul my tactic. Many thanks, it works wonderfully now

Balanced Counter

TI are: Be more Expressive, Hassle Opponent, much higher defensive line, roam from position, play wider, retain possession, works ball into box, and drill crosses. This is my basic framework. The roles n PI, however, I tweak them occasionally according to my opponents. usually AMR/L between IFA/WTA, both CM between DLP/BBM, APS/BBM, CMS/BBM, DM between DMs/DMd/HB and for the striker its Trequartista/DLPs/F9

Im currently running my second season with wartford n the best result using my brand new, overhauled tactic was vs Man city. we won 3-0, completely dominate them in their ownhalf for the first half, scoring a goal via through pass from zone 14 to our left fullback in the left then he gave a drill cross to our striker who did a forward run from zone 14 to the 6yard box.

the second half was quite a problem to me since city switched into 4-4-2 fast counter. we failed to adapt, n lost possession here (49%-51% from 69%-31% at the 1st half). so I switched to my quick counter tactic (a drastic change XD) n managed to score 2 more goal via fastbreak. at the first half I used 2 Wing Target Man attack because that role encourage my central midfield to play a bit more aggresive. my DLP in the end of game, managed to do 4 forward runs, 2 of it were inside the box, and one of it ended up with a goal from him after we gained possession at city's own half. I was surprised that my DLP did more forward run, compared to my AP (0 forward run). I realize it now, because of my high defensive line, my AP was pushed too far n thus, coulndt managed even a single forward run while my DLP mostly spent his time much deeper (he has much space to do the forward run)

my main question is, i never managed to make my DLP to do forward run in this edition. now I'm happy he did, even though in my new setup i never planned him to do so (its a possession based tactic). why my DLP is more encouraged to do Forward run now even though there is no solid defense in his back (i recall usually it just 2 CB and 1 FB/ 1DM, coz sometiems even my DM support was doing forward run at quick counter)?

I also realize that my DM support will step up a bit higher frequently whenever my AP attack moving higher. when my AP drop deeper that DM going back at his original position. he also did some forward runs. when opportunity arise but he only did that when there is no immediate danger towards our defense. this is so much flexibility in my view. is there any advice to improve my tactical framework?

thx and sorry for my bad english

[THOG]

I'd be concerned about the lack of an outright holding mid (the DLP-S will generally hold position but may attempt to take the ball forward without cover at times), but I know in the current version, support duty central mids are reluctant to make any sort of overlapping runs through the middle so it may not be a problem for you with the DLF sitting deep and the IFs also cutting into the middle. In any case, I'd keep an eye on the gap in front of your defence when you go forward.

[Taleron]

I'd be concerned about the lack of an outright holding mid (the DLP-S will generally hold position but may attempt to take the ball forward without cover at times), but I know in the current version, support duty central mids are reluctant to make any sort of overlapping runs through the middle so it may not be a problem for you with the DLF sitting deep and the IFs also cutting into the middle. In any case, I'd keep an eye on the gap in front of your defence when you go forward.

Somewhat related: I think in this thread you've stated your preference for 2 holding players; would a DLP-S at CM qualify as holding enough with a DM-D or DLP-D behind him? Additionally, when you think about how many players are holding, do fullbacks enter the equation? E.g. if I leave one of my fullbacks on a more conservative role+duty, does that give me flexibility to be more aggressive in the middle? Or does it mainly have to do with central players?

[THOG]

Somewhat related: I think in this thread you've stated your preference for 2 holding players; would a DLP-S at CM qualify as holding enough with a DM-D or DLP-D behind him? Additionally, when you think about how many players are holding, do fullbacks enter the equation? E.g. if I leave one of my fullbacks on a more conservative role+duty, does that give me flexibility to be more aggressive in the middle? Or does it mainly have to do with central players?

A DLP-S is effectively a holding player off the ball but they will carry the ball forward at times and can leave the defence exposed if they lose possession. When considering how many holding roles to use in midfield, your fullback roles should be your primary consideration. If you play with at least one more cautious fullback (FB-S/D or WB-D), you don't really need the second holding mid unless you're playing very defensively. Similarly, if you're playing with three central defenders, a second holding mid is probably overkill in most situations.

The other consideration is if you're playing a Halfback. The Halfback drops into a back three, leaving no one holding position in front of the defence during the defensive transition, so you'll generally want to use a second holding role (a DLP-S is generally fine) to complement the Halfback (as well as more aggressive fullback roles).

[rninejr]

I'd be concerned about the lack of an outright holding mid (the DLP-S will generally hold position but may attempt to take the ball forward without cover at times), but I know in the current version, support duty central mids are reluctant to make any sort of overlapping runs through the middle so it may not be a problem for you with the DLF sitting deep and the IFs also cutting into the middle. In any case, I'd keep an eye on the gap in front of your defence when you go forward.

well its true. my tactic appeared to be exposed by 4-4-2 quick counter. thats mainly because there is a huge gap left behind by APa when we started to push slowly to the opponent's half, and my DM failed to respond his movement (not providing any cover on the hude gap). i tried DMd and anchor, but the problem still remain.

im starting to wonder about the trio's role. tried CMc, my MC could do some forward runs but i notice that other players such like IFa and FBa didnt see him as a playmaker resulting on less passess and lost possession coz of reckless dribble. n CMc doesnt drop as deep as DLP. i regret the fact SI didnt give any forward run in PI. i think we shoulg get that for some support roles (more forward run/fewer forward run)

btw, in ur opinion, which one is better for a lone ST in my tactical framework, trequartista/DLPs or a/F9? i notice that even though trequartista is a playmaker he is somehow the most attacking role compared to the other 2.

[THOG]

"Get Further Forward" and "Hold Position" are the forward run PIs.

As for the best role, it depends entirely on the qualities of your players. Any of the roles you chose can work. DLF-S would be better for a stronger player who can hold off defenders, a treq would be better for a more agile and technical player with good movement while a false nine will work best for a player whose main strength is passing and shots from distance.

[bababooey]

Wasn't this thread stickied before? If not it should be! There is so much good information here, I went back to look for it and had to go through THOG's profile to find it.

[Johnny Ace]

Wasn't this thread stickied before? If not it should be! There is so much good information here, I went back to look for it and had to go through THOG's profile to find it.

I just came here to say that, I only found this thread a couple of weeks ago, really should be stickied as it's essential reading

[underkiller]

THOG can you please help me here.

I am trying to make myself a Tottenham Hotspur formation on fm 2015.

I want one attacking formation, called tactic A and one counter tactic called B

Tactic A-Attacking:

This is stats\movement from last game if it is helpful.

What do you think? Is this a sensible approach?

[THOG]

It depends on the context. In a lot of situations, it will be very open and vulnerable to counterattack, and if a team presses you, the high tempo style may see your players making a lot of mistakes.

Generally, I think dropping "Exploit the Middle" is probably a good idea as I assume you want Chadli and Lamela to be goal threats with your midfield staying somewhat deeper.

Since this thread has been resurrected from the depths, I guess I should also make the disclaimer that a lot of the info in OP may not be accurate for FM15 given changes to tactical instructions and the ME.

[underkiller]

Thanks for reply Tactic A was for my games at white hart lane.

Can you please help me with this one, this tactic is the best for me so far, but i have low possesion, and i struggle against the best teamsThis is my tactic B: Counter attack

Can you please tell me what you would have changed in the instructions if you where me? I am unsure if i should use higher tempo and drop deeper, and about the deep lying role i have given Eriksen.

Thanks Again

[THOG]

It's fairly attacking, really. I wouldn't be surprised if it actually works reasonably well against comparable or just slightly weaker opponents. The one thing that's obviously missing is a pure holding player. You might try Capoue as just a standard Defensive Midfielder (Defend).

You're going to have low possession because it's very direct and based on working the ball down the flanks and hitting early crosses. That's not necessarily a bad thing if it gets results.