The Chalkboard Diaries - THE DISCUSSION THREAD

[Mighty Red]

how did you find managing the 2 stoppers? The 3 at the back set-up makes sense, but I'm guessing you change the defensive roles depending how the opposition line up their strikers?

[Cleon]

how did you find managing the 2 stoppers? The 3 at the back set-up makes sense, but I'm guessing you change the defensive roles depending how the opposition line up their strikers?

Not really no, I tend to stick with 2 stoppers. It works and makes sense because the 2 stoppers will step up and win the ball, if they get beat or fail to win the ball (very rarely happens though) then I still have cover who can sweep up any mistakes. It's the perfect balance imo for a back 3.

[tomtuck01]

Not really no, I tend to stick with 2 stoppers. It works and makes sense because the 2 stoppers will step up and win the ball, if they get beat or fail to win the ball (very rarely happens though) then I still have cover who can sweep up any mistakes. It's the perfect balance imo for a back 3.

Exactly what I've gone with in my back three. It's just logical.

[Cleon]

Exactly what I've gone with in my back three. It's just logical.

Aye. If you mess with other variations then you lose the balance and for me, the defence isn't somewhere you can afford to be unbalanced. As you'd end up not knowing who was going to do what as each scenario would be different.

[tomtuck01]

Aye. If you mess with other variations then you lose the balance and for me, the defence isn't somewhere you can afford to be unbalanced. As you'd end up not knowing who was going to do what as each scenario would be different.

On the subject of defensive balance, with playing a back three do you think having both Wingbacks on the Attack duty is ok? I don't want to leve my back three over exposed. I also use a CM - Defend if that's any help?

[Noel Gallagher]

That was my aim, to free players up to play in midfield. It's all about the numbers game for me and you can dominate games if you have control of the middle. It can be classed as risky but it isn't that bad if you get the roles/duties right. People see the initial formation overview and think omfg this cannot work. When in reality when the match starts the team isn't that shape at all.

What shape does your team actually end up in once the match begins? It would be interesting to see how the player roles effect the actual starting formation and how the shape of your team changes

[Cleon]

On the subject of defensive balance, with playing a back three do you think having both Wingbacks on the Attack duty is ok? I don't want to leve my back three over exposed. I also use a CM - Defend if that's any help?

That should be fine as the CM should offer a lot of cover. Just keep an eye on teams who might end up in behind. I don't think you'll suffer with this a lot though as you pay attention to detail so you'd notice it happening before it became an issue. I honestly think you'd be fine though and with a back 3 and a CM, that should be more than enough.

[tomtuck01]

That should be fine as the CM should offer a lot of cover. Just keep an eye on teams who might end up in behind. I don't think you'll suffer with this a lot though as you pay attention to detail so you'd notice it happening before it became an issue. I honestly think you'd be fine though and with a back 3 and a CM, that should be more than enough.

Cheers dude.

[Cleon]

What shape does your team actually end up in once the match begins? It would be interesting to see how the player roles effect the actual starting formation and how the shape of your team changes

I'll try and post some heat maps up from different kind of games I've played. Generally it's the oppositions shape that determines mine though to some extent.

[daleuk8]

Cleon when you change to control or attacking in game do make changes to your team instructions? or use other shouts?

[Cleon]

Cleon when you change to control or attacking in game do make changes to your team instructions? or use other shouts?

Not unless stated in the post

[RTHerringbone]

With a centre heavy tactic like your strikerless shape, I'd have thought it would be natural to have the passing focus through the middle, but you seem to be set on Mixed.

Is that true? If so, what is the thinking?

[Cleon]

With a centre heavy tactic like your strikerless shape, I'd have thought it would be natural to have the passing focus through the middle, but you seem to be set on Mixed.

Is that true? If so, what is the thinking?

I still want the ML/MR involved and to be a passing option if its the right move. Plus I see lots of movement and do use the channels at times. If it was just all central play then it would be very easy to defend against. Starting central and been able to move wide though, that can cause lots of movement in the oppositions shape and can create lots of space for my central players to exploit.

So a move might work like;

Starts central with my DLP, he passes to the MR who runs with the ball, the oppositions defender steps up or goes across to cover. This creates a space between both centreback's or make it that the fullback had to commit so the DC is forced to cover. Then a simple ball back central for whoever is making most of the space and I've created a good chance.

If it was instructed for through the centre always, then I'd miss these kind of moves. So while I might be packed in the midfield and seem centralised, I still try and utilise the full pitch if possible.

[RTHerringbone]

OK, cheers for the quick reply.

Out of interest, what precisely does the Exploit the Middle shout do?

I can certainly see value in having Mixed passing focus for the reasons you mention, but does this shout effectively change the focus to Through the Middle?

[Cleon]

OK, cheers for the quick reply.

Out of interest, what precisely does the Exploit the Middle shout do?

I can certainly see value in having Mixed passing focus for the reasons you mention, but does this shout effectively change the focus to Through the Middle?

Exploit The Middle –

None defensive players will have their run from deep increased too often. Tells your team to focus their passing through the middle and any defenders and defensive midfielders will have their mentality changed to a more attacking one and be told to do through balls often. If you don’t use wide players then you should use this shout. It’s also great against teams who leave big gaping holes through the centre. I find it really effective against the 4231 (the CM one and not the DM) as the gap in the middle is huge.

[RTHerringbone]

Last question (for now!)

I note that you don't designate a Playmaker in Team Instructions in spite of having one or even two Playmaker roles in your setups.

Is this for a similar reason as passing focus - you don't want to limit your tactic to one (or two) points of failure where the opposition could just mark that Playmaker out of the game?

I will stop asking questions now....

[Cleon]

Last question (for now!)

I note that you don't designate a Playmaker in Team Instructions in spite of having one or even two Playmaker roles in your setups.

Is this for a similar reason as passing focus - you don't want to limit your tactic to one (or two) points of failure where the opposition could just mark that Playmaker out of the game?

I will stop asking questions now....

I don't have anyone who is capable of been creative for an entire match and been consistent. This changes when I move up the league though. So I thought that I'd be better leaving it default if I have no-one who can do the job full time.

And I enjoy the questions

[Noel Gallagher]

In my setups I often set a player role to either a DLP or an AP but don't actually designate anyone as a primary playmaker. The reason I do this is purely for positional purposes as they take up slightly different positions on the pitch to a regular CM. Does anybody else find the benefit of this?

[Cleon]

In my setups I often set a player role to either a DLP or an AP but don't actually designate anyone as a primary playmaker. The reason I do this is purely for positional purposes as they take up slightly different positions on the pitch to a regular CM. Does anybody else find the benefit of this?

When I switch the roles in season 2 and have the DLP as the DMC, I have him selected as the default then to force him to come deeper. I also have him set to collect from the defender, so I tend to play out from the back. But this forces his positional play slightly deeper (which is what I was aiming for)

[RTHerringbone]

And I enjoy the questions

That comment I made about it being my last question....I lied.

I've recently been using the Playmaker and Target Man tick boxes to great effect, or so I thought....

In your strikerless tactic, what would actually happen if your DLP was designated Playmaker and your AP was Target Man?

I'm not actually 100% certain what these tick boxes do to be honest, if anyone can clarify that it would be much appreciated.

My assumption is that the TM tick box encourages play to be focused towards that player.

However, what does the Playmaker box therefore do? Is it the same but somehow based on where the ball is?

[Cleon]

That comment I made about it being my last question....I lied.

I've recently been using the Playmaker and Target Man tick boxes to great effect, or so I thought....

In your strikerless tactic, what would actually happen if your DLP was designated Playmaker and your AP was Target Man?

I'm not actually 100% certain what these tick boxes do to be honest, if anyone can clarify that it would be much appreciated.

My assumption is that the TM tick box encourages play to be focused towards that player.

However, what does the Playmaker box therefore do? Is it the same but somehow based on where the ball is?

It tells the players to try and force play to those players more often. So it can be great but it can also make you 1 dimensional at times.

[daleuk8]

Not unless stated in the post

Ok thanks,

I'm playing as Liverpool, I'm playing a 442, my midfield are setup as:

wingers/support

CM/Defence

CM/Attack

my team instructions are on default. How would you change things?

How would you suggest I play against a team who plays 3 in midfield?

[Cleon]

Ok thanks,

I'm playing as Liverpool, I'm playing a 442, my midfield are setup as:

wingers/support

CM/Defence

CM/Attack

my team instructions are on default. How would you change things?

How would you suggest I play against a team who plays 3 in midfield?

Surely you can see this can't be answered due to the little information you've provided? How am I supposed to offer advice on what to change when I don't know what the issues are or why you think they need to be changed?

As for how to play against a 3 man midfield, that also depends because there are many different versions of a 3 man midfield. So again, without any actual details I won't be able to offer advice because it would be pointless.

[Kim Wong]

Great post，Cleon.

Do you use any opposition instruction?

[Cleon]

Great post，Cleon.

Do you use any opposition instruction?

No. I only use what I state in the posts

[daleuk8]

Surely you can see this can't be answered due to the little information you've provided? How am I supposed to offer advice on what to change when I don't know what the issues are or why you think they need to be changed?

As for how to play against a 3 man midfield, that also depends because there are many different versions of a 3 man midfield. So again, without any actual details I won't be able to offer advice because it would be pointless.

Sorry I was in a rush when I posted last night. Sometimes I get accused that my team instructions are to simple.

For example last night I played Arsenal away: I started with my 442 but started with counter and more direct passing as I was using a TM Andy Caroll.

Arsenal used: A 4-2-3-1 but the wingers were wide, I man marked the lone forward with my CB, and also man marked there wingers with my wingers.

By half time I was 3-0 down. Due to being in a rush I quit the game. I just wondered if you had any initial thoughts, I will play properly when I get the time and come back with more info.

[RTHerringbone]

Sorry I was in a rush when I posted last night. Sometimes I get accused that my team instructions are to simple.

For example last night I played Arsenal away: I started with my 442 but started with counter and more direct passing as I was using a TM Andy Caroll.

Arsenal used: A 4-2-3-1 but the wingers were wide, I man marked the lone forward with my CB, and also man marked there wingers with my wingers.

By half time I was 3-0 down. Due to being in a rush I quit the game. I just wondered if you had any initial thoughts, I will play properly when I get the time and come back with more info.

Still insufficient detail there, you've only really skimmed over shape, strategy and some specific marking (perhaps not sensible to mark a "lone" striker if they have an unmarked AM behind running at your other DC).

You need to show your roles and duties and team instructions to gain a fuller diagnosis of your issues.

How did you concede?

A 4-4-2 against a 4-2-3-1 will be outnumbered centrally, what did you do to cope with that?

[daleuk8]

Still insufficient detail there, you've only really skimmed over shape, strategy and some specific marking (perhaps not sensible to mark a "lone" striker if they have an unmarked AM behind running at your other DC).

You need to show your roles and duties and team instructions to gain a fuller diagnosis of your issues.

How did you concede?

A 4-4-2 against a 4-2-3-1 will be outnumbered centrally, what did you do to cope with that?

Hi Thanks

Here are my player instructions:

GK-DEFEND

DR: Fullback/Attack

DL: Fullback/Auto

DC: Defend

DC: Defend

MR: Winger/Support

ML: Winger/Support

CM: Defend

CM: Attack

DLF: Support

ADF: Attack

Although I might change the DLF to a TM depending on who I have up front.

I am aware I would be out numbered, that's partly what I wanted advice on. Ways to cope with it?

[Bruce Higham]

I didn't notice you facing a 4231 narrow (cms and 3 am's). In the lower leagues of Italy my bogey team Venezia uses it with some success. When I beat them in the playoff finals, it seemed that I won merely by the football gods, as they had the upper hand all match (I won 3-2 over two legs, two goals in the final ten minutes).

Using my 3142, playing on the counter, I had my anchorman marking the central am, and my wingers marking the side am's. I played narrow and exploited the flanks. Because they had a superior team to me (not hard to do honestly) I couldn't really attack them as I would have with a bigger team.

I didn't like how my wingers were being dragged out of position, but in all honesty I didn't know who to mark the side am's with. (in the first leg I didn't mark them and they kept on putting dangerous crosses in). What are your instincts against this formation without attacking them? Maybe if I played them again I would push up and try to stifle the midfield.

Thankfully they changed to a 33212, which I find easy to deal with.

Cheers, and great thread.

[Mansell5]

Hi Cleon,

Regarding the tactic with strikers, you have mentioned flipping your midfield structure to protect you DWR...but what was your thinking behind the midfield/striker interaction in the first place?

It looks like you will get a really nice diamond formed by the DLP, DWL(A), MC (A) and the DLF dropping back...especially assuming that one or both of the MC(A) or DWL(A) may make runs past the DLF? In terms of vertical movement between your MC/ST 'box' you seem to have opted for an attacking right side and a conservative left. Was it specific effort to give the DLF space to drop into and the MC(A) space to attack ahead of him - or did this evolve through some other route?

Also, do you find that the DWR becomes a little isolated - and is possibly attempting a number of difficult passes to the MC(A) or AF who are running on ahead? Or do your DM and DCR offer close support?

Excellent thread by the way - very much appreciated for my evening reading!

[Mark.]

Top thread Cleon. I would like some more please.

[Cleon]

I didn't notice you facing a 4231 narrow (cms and 3 am's). In the lower leagues of Italy my bogey team Venezia uses it with some success. When I beat them in the playoff finals, it seemed that I won merely by the football gods, as they had the upper hand all match (I won 3-2 over two legs, two goals in the final ten minutes).

Using my 3142, playing on the counter, I had my anchorman marking the central am, and my wingers marking the side am's. I played narrow and exploited the flanks. Because they had a superior team to me (not hard to do honestly) I couldn't really attack them as I would have with a bigger team.

I didn't like how my wingers were being dragged out of position, but in all honesty I didn't know who to mark the side am's with. (in the first leg I didn't mark them and they kept on putting dangerous crosses in). What are your instincts against this formation without attacking them? Maybe if I played them again I would push up and try to stifle the midfield.

Thankfully they changed to a 33212, which I find easy to deal with.

Cheers, and great thread.

How was your tactic set up in terms of duties/roles?

[Cleon]

Hi Cleon,

Regarding the tactic with strikers, you have mentioned flipping your midfield structure to protect you DWR...but what was your thinking behind the midfield/striker interaction in the first place?

It looks like you will get a really nice diamond formed by the DLP, DWL(A), MC (A) and the DLF dropping back...especially assuming that one or both of the MC(A) or DWL(A) may make runs past the DLF? In terms of vertical movement between your MC/ST 'box' you seem to have opted for an attacking right side and a conservative left. Was it specific effort to give the DLF space to drop into and the MC(A) space to attack ahead of him - or did this evolve through some other route?

Also, do you find that the DWR becomes a little isolated - and is possibly attempting a number of difficult passes to the MC(A) or AF who are running on ahead? Or do your DM and DCR offer close support?

Excellent thread by the way - very much appreciated for my evening reading!

It's vital the DLF drops off into empty space and gets support from the MC's yeah. It creates all sorts of runs off the DLF and creates overlaps and support play. I find this is really important for both creating chances and scoring them. I like to have many different options in a tactic and vary the type of play we can do. This way, when I play different kinds of teams I still have options because I'm not limited with the type of build up play I create.

As for the DWR, he gets plenty of support from the DM and DCR

[Cleon]

Top thread Cleon. I would like some more please.

There will be more but people need to be a bit patient. It's a big task writing about my save and taking screenshots etc. Especially with a wife, young daughters, job etc. I don't have as much time as I used to have so I tend to do stuff like this over a period of time as and when I have nothing else going on

It will be updated though and is far from complete

[Bruce Higham]

I have obviously reinforced since then in the close season, but at the time it was set up like this

.................goalie(if you could call him that)

....LD stopper, cd cover, LD stopper

....................anchorman..............

..................................................Lwb (attack)

R DW (sup) b to b (sup) dlp (sup)

...............poacher......dlf(sup)

Mixed everything, long shots depending on player

Rigid, counter

So I had my wingback marking the rc am, and my DW was marking the LC am. I just faced it again (como used it) but now that I've recruited a better midfield, I could attack them down the sides and won easily. Still, if I was going to face it in the future with a better side then mine, thoughts?

I really should have just done a screenshot, apologies. And also, I wish I did face a 33212, they would have been disqualified (3322 of course)

[Cleon]

I have obviously reinforced since then in the close season, but at the time it was set up like this

.................goalie(if you could call him that)

....LD stopper, cd cover, LD stopper

....................anchorman..............

..................................................Lwb (attack)

R DW (sup) b to b (sup) dlp (sup)

...............poacher......dlf(sup)

Mixed everything, long shots depending on player

Rigid, counter

So I had my wingback marking the rc am, and my DW was marking the LC am. I just faced it again (como used it) but now that I've recruited a better midfield, I could attack them down the sides and won easily. Still, if I was going to face it in the future with a better side then mine, thoughts?

I really should have just done a screenshot, apologies. And also, I wish I did face a 33212, they would have been disqualified (3322 of course)

I'd have got my wingback/DW to man mark the AMCR/AMCL too. In fact I wouldn't have done much different from what you did.

What shouts did you use?

[bg0123]

Hi Cleon,

Great thread! When you are analyzing your loss to Doncaster (sorry don't remember the post number), you mention that you should have used the gaps in the midfield and between the DC and RB by changing some of your player's roles. Can you give me an example of the type of changes you could have made?

Thanks!

[Mansell5]

Hi Cleon,

Having re-read a number of your match summaries I notice that you don't mention the weather or pitch size/condition that you are playing on. Without making any generalisations I think it's fair to say that the weather, especially on some lower league standard pitches (OK - I guess suggesting that all lower league pitches are 'bad' is a generalisation!!), effects play and can highlight the strengths or weaknesses of a team.

Was there a particular reason that you don't seem to use any shouts/player choices/tactical changes to take advantage/avoid disadvantages of certain conditions?

Thanks.

[Mark.]

There will be more but people need to be a bit patient. It's a big task writing about my save and taking screenshots etc. Especially with a wife, young daughters, job etc. I don't have as much time as I used to have so I tend to do stuff like this over a period of time as and when I have nothing else going on

It will be updated though and is far from complete

Oh no worries, sorry wasn't meaning that as a hurry along, more as an expression of eagerness

Plenty of stuff here to saite my hunger to learn!

[RTHerringbone]

That should be fine as the CM should offer a lot of cover. Just keep an eye on teams who might end up in behind. I don't think you'll suffer with this a lot though as you pay attention to detail so you'd notice it happening before it became an issue. I honestly think you'd be fine though and with a back 3 and a CM, that should be more than enough.

Hi Cleon, another balance question.

Like tomtuck01 I've been experimenting with a Libero.

My first effort featured three MCs and two AMs, the second flips that so two MCs and three AMs:

Conventional wisdom is that my AMCs should be split from the MCs due to the Duties assigned and the traits of the CM (D) and DLP (S) roles.

It doesn't appear to be the case for me, any idea why, and is it even something to worry about?

The wingbacks clearly move between these lines, but it's the MC to AMC players I'm interested in.

It wasn't an issue with my three MC version logically, as I had one of each Duty in MC, with the Attack being a Central Midfielder.

[Cleon]

Hi Cleon,

Great thread! When you are analyzing your loss to Doncaster (sorry don't remember the post number), you mention that you should have used the gaps in the midfield and between the DC and RB by changing some of your player's roles. Can you give me an example of the type of changes you could have made?

Thanks!

I should have attacked them more and focused play through the middle maybe while at the same time pushing up. Basically I'd have just played around with the roles until I found the combination that would have worked best. Off the top of my head its hard to say what those would be because it all depends on visuals I see happening during a game.

[Cleon]

Hi Cleon,

Having re-read a number of your match summaries I notice that you don't mention the weather or pitch size/condition that you are playing on. Without making any generalisations I think it's fair to say that the weather, especially on some lower league standard pitches (OK - I guess suggesting that all lower league pitches are 'bad' is a generalisation!!), effects play and can highlight the strengths or weaknesses of a team.

Was there a particular reason that you don't seem to use any shouts/player choices/tactical changes to take advantage/avoid disadvantages of certain conditions?

Thanks.

I am the strongest team in the league, so there wasn't much point in changing anything, even for the weather. This isn't the case in season 2 though and I will be talking about how I change based on the weather

[Cleon]

Hi Cleon, another balance question.

Like tomtuck01 I've been experimenting with a Libero.

My first effort featured three MCs and two AMs, the second flips that so two MCs and three AMs:

Conventional wisdom is that my AMCs should be split from the MCs due to the Duties assigned and the traits of the CM (D) and DLP (S) roles.

It doesn't appear to be the case for me, any idea why, and is it even something to worry about?

The wingbacks clearly move between these lines, but it's the MC to AMC players I'm interested in.

It wasn't an issue with my three MC version logically, as I had one of each Duty in MC, with the Attack being a Central Midfielder.

Is the AMC issue all the time or just against certain formations? If it's certain formations then is it against sides who use a DMC by any chance?

[RTHerringbone]

Is the AMC issue all the time or just against certain formations? If it's certain formations then is it against sides who use a DMC by any chance?

Sorry, I probably worded my question a bit weirdly.

I was expecting to see my attacking AMs get isolated from the MCs, as the AMCs are all on Attack, but the MCs are Defend or Support.

This isn't happening and I'm slightly surprised by that - would you expect to see big gaps or is this offset by their positional closeness one strata apart?

[Cleon]

Sorry, I probably worded my question a bit weirdly.

I was expecting to see my attacking AMs get isolated from the MCs, as the AMCs are all on Attack, but the MCs are Defend or Support.

This isn't happening and I'm slightly surprised by that - would you expect to see big gaps or is this offset by their positional closeness one strata apart?

Ah now I understand

Well it's hard to become isolated when they are all midfielders as even with high or low mentality they are still quite close together. It's only when you move strata that big problems gaps would appear really, i.e defence to midfield, midfield to strikers. I know that AMC's and MC's are different but they still come under the midfield part for me rather than the striker one.

I don't know much about your games but I'd take a stab in the dark and assume the MC's link up the play to the AMC who then plays the ball to the other AMC's who make forward runs etc?

[RTHerringbone]

I don't know much about your games but I'd take a stab in the dark and assume the MC's link up the play to the AMC who then plays the ball to the other AMC's who make forward runs etc?

My screenshot is a bit wrong, the AM is also on Attack now.

Things are complicated by the fact that two of my AMCs are usually strikers, but very good and versatile strikers.

I trained some PPMs to suit my previous AF and DLF roles, so these guys play a bit unusually.

The AM is often as attacking as the IF. Typically it is the AP who is more withdrawn, as you'd expect, and he's set as Target Man so play is roughly focused in his direction.

Since properly applying sensible man marking, this shape has really started to work.

It really limits the opposition chances, and I'm probably averaging possession around 60%, even the occasional 70%.

Quality of shots improves (in terms of % on target, half chances and CCCs), possibly due to Work Ball Into Box, but also due to the number of options available.

[djohnson11]

hi nice thread cleon i am wondering how do you hold on to your results late on?

[Cleon]

hi nice thread cleon i am wondering how do you hold on to your results late on?

Everything I do/did in a game is highlighted in the posts. If you actually read them, you'll see what I did.

[vkastanas]

What is really interesting is that you just chose your tactic (I assume based on your team strengths) and with minimum effort you finished top of the league, being the best team and all that...

How did you chose the 3-1-4-2 though?

[Cleon]

What is really interesting is that you just chose your tactic (I assume based on your team strengths) and with minimum effort you finished top of the league, being the best team and all that...

How did you chose the 3-1-4-2 though?

That is all I ever do, I explain how I make a tactic work in this thread;

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/305067-The-Full-90-Minutes-What-I-Do