Tactical Theorems and Frameworks '07

[Noel Gallagher]

Yeah, at the moment. It's no work of art yet. I've ALWAYS played the game where you have just one formation all season. I'm very conscious about chopping and changing because I believe you lose rhythm and balance.

At the moment my priority is just trying to get it so when you watch the 2D, the players appear to play as a team and don't waste posession.

[Gabi80]

totally agread, i always played one formation all season!!!

Noel do you use counter atack?

And what is your favourite tempo and passing ?

Regards

[ntfc]

Just played an game with the " normal" mentalities.

Certainly stronger possession wise

[Noel Gallagher]

I'm now trying to play with my defenders having hardly any closing down at all, the theory is that their positional sense will have them being in the right places at the right time, rather than rushing out to somebody and losing position in the process

[wwfan]

Major Observation

All the following information (unless specified) is based on a flat 4-4-2 playing in the Conf North.

Forward Runs and Attacking

These have ben significantly reprogrammed and work very, very differently than they did in '06. I now believe they are key as to dominating possession. The most important area is FWRs for attackers.

When playing AI teams I noticed that, in a flat midfield, the AI MCs were playing as an MCd and MCa. One would always link up with the attack and one would sit in front of the back four. My MCs didn't seem to do this and constantly got in the way of each other. It didn't seem to matter if I split their mentalities a la RoT or left them on the same mentality with Ro3 blocks. As I believe the AI is pretty much Global, I decided another factor must be determining relative positions. I played one MC with no FWRs and the other with them on Often, and voila, a split MCd/MCa midfield which was beginning to offer better passing options. Prevously I had been splitting them as either Rarely/Mixed or Mixed/Often, but the new split of Rarely/Often was the bomb!

Possession grew steadily, and was beginning to match the AI. I was suffering from supersaint's problem of defending with reasonable efficiency (as my team only has one defender who has tackling better than 2, this is very relative), having a fantastic goals per shot on target ration (close to 50%), but not creating enough of them. I wanted to be able to have 55%+ possession, which, I assumed would produce more chances, and, if my G/SOT ration stayed high, a lot of quality performances.

I was suffering from the same issues many have reported: isolated attackers. Neither RoT nor Ro3 seemed to make any difference. They still lost possession all too easily. Then came the brainwave. My FC was a dominating target man who was winning 75%+ of his headers (H13-J14 is huge at Conf North level) and was scoring but not assisting. He kept on winning balls in the air but the opposition kept on picking up the scraps. So, I reduced his FWRs to rarely, with the other FC on mixed. Instant results. In the next two games he assisted 4 goals from 5, three being flick ons to the faster mixed FWRs FC, and one being a cushioned header back to the breaking MCa. Passing percentage went through the roof, with a 10% advantage over the AI, and I began to dominate possession (58% game one; 52% game two). I also improved crossing to being 10-15% better than the AI and was still winning 75%+ headers.

Observationally, the FC Target Man was dropping deeper to win headers, but with the wingers and MCa on FWRs often, and the FC on mixed, he was heading balls to players close to him, which was tearing the opposition apart. The old issue of stiker isolation was gone, and the team played compact, attractive football. Chance conversion remained high, but there were more of them. I think this is a KEY element to beating the AI in '07 and is a massive shift in thinking from '06. Please report on how this switch influences your play.

Notes

I am beginning to get the FBs to overlap now. FWrs to often and a wide formation with focus passing down both flanks seems to do the trick. I am holding up the ball with both FCs, which helps them have time to get into position, but HUB with wingers may help too. I have yet to try though.

FWRs are KEY and setting them correctly is a must. Best values seem to be:

Home

FBs: Often (be careful when the AI switches to the 4-4-2 Long Farrows)

DCs: Rarely

MCd: Rarely

ML/R: Often ??? (Maybe mixed would help with overlapping fullbacks; some testing required)

MCa: Often

FCd/TM: Rarely

FCa: Mixed

I need to experiment with away settings, but obviously they need to be toned down to stop gaps appearing in the back four.

Attacking Midfielders/AMCs

There have been issues with isolation for AMCs, especially when using the RoT. I would suggest experimenting with FWRs rarely (if you want him to be a playmaker) or mixed to see if they are better settings and help him get involved more. As I see it, the MCa becomes an AMC with FWRs Often, so maybe the AMC's best settings are Rarely??

Playmaker/MCd/DMC

With my current set up, the MCd is always in huge amounts of space and can pick his passes. Employing a playmaker in the MCd position, with FWRs to rarely, may be a masterstroke.

I need to do some further testing to see how all this affects RoT. It may revitalise it, it may not help. However, I am 95% sure that toning down FWRs for front players, expecially Target Men, is the way towards better possession and higher quality chance creation.

[Gabi80]

wwfan

i read your post about passing and d-line. Ok, so if my d-line is on 7, i reducing distance passing to 7 to all my 5 defensive players. My tempo is 8 + counter attack. But i don`t know how to set up my dmc. Should i give him ttb? Ps I played in conference with farnborough. Simply diamond.

[wwfan]

Originally posted by Gabi80:

wwfan

i read your post about passing and d-line. Ok, so if my d-line is on 7, i reducing distance passing to 7 to all my 5 defensive players. My tempo is 8 + counter attack. But i don`t know how to set up my dmc. Should i give him ttb? Ps I played in conference with farnborough. Simply diamond.

I'd be looking to play a little more direct passing with a lowish D-line at Conference level. As for the DMC try low FWRS (possibly mixed, not sure about best settings for a DMC yet), TTB often. CD should be 13 for the back 5. I would also look to increase the tempo.

However, if you are getting good possession with your current settings ignore my advice.

[Gabi80]

@ wwfan

Yes, i have poor possesion. So passing for dc -14, dr-12 but what about dmc? short passing or direct? Yes i increase tempo to 12, and i think i created more changes. Thanx for your help i will glad to your opinion. It is possible to have 80% passing complete with farnborough? Please help me with my defence amd dmc passing. D-line is 7 , dc mentality- 7 fb-10 dmc-9

[wwfan]

Originally posted by Gabi80:

@ wwfan

Yes, i have poor possesion. So passing for dc -14, dr-12 but what about dmc? short passing or direct? Yes i increase tempo to 12, and i think i created more changes. Thanx for your help i will glad to your opinion. It is possible to have 80% passing complete with farnborough? Please help me with my defence amd dmc passing. D-line is 7 , dc mentality- 7 fb-10 dmc-9

Direct for DMC. Defence settings seem fine.

Read the major observation post above and alter attacking settings accordingly re: forward runs for FCs and Target Man. Please report back if possession and pass percentages change with any degree of significance.

[crazy gra]

Target Man Testing

Thought I might do some more target man testing as I’m still undecided on the issue. Instead of using Man Utd, I’m using my Wycombe that I’ve just started to see how effective target men are in the lower leagues. Also, hopefully wwfan should be able to relate to the player’s abilities (not all three STs, but hopefully most of the other players I mention) even though he can’t get on the game yet, whereas anyone else can just check on their game if needbe. Hopefully I’m going to see what differences there are between different striker pairings and different target men instructions. I’ve got 3 strikers who I’m planning to use during this test and rotate them in certain situations, who are Tommy Mooney, Matt Harrold and Martin Paterson. As these players are all different types of striker (technical, tall and quick respectively) I plan to have them all as target men to their ideal target man setting – to feet, to head, run onto ball respectively.

I’m going to test this during the first 2 games of the season, which are both league 2 games, one at home and one away, both of which are teams who are amongst the favourites for the title. In the first two, I’ll play Harrold as the target man to head. Paterson will be his partner during the first half and Mooney during the second half. In the second run of these two games, Mooney will be the target man to feet, with Paterson as his partner in the first half and Harrold in the second. The third set will have Paterson as the target man to run onto ball, with Harrold as his first half partner and Mooney in the second. I’ll then play the 2 games without any target man instructions and have the personnel rotated.

This is my team in a 4-2-2-2 formation:

--------------Batista-------------

Martin---Santos---Garry---Stockley

----------------------------------

-------Bloomfield---Torres--------

Betsy------------------------Poole

--Harrold/Mooney-Mooney/Paterson--

Game 1 v Grimsby at home (target man – Harrold - to head)

Observations

5th minute: Harrold flicks a goal kick on for Paterson to run onto, gets there first but misses a one on one.

14th minute: another Harrold flick on puts Paterson through one on one, but it’s saved again by the keeper.

27th minute: ball played up to Harrold by Martin, Harrold flicks it on for Paterson who this time scores, 1-0.

34th minute: opposition defender won a header against Harrold, but only enough to flick it behind him for a corner (this happens too much IMO).

35th minute: resulting corner is cleared, but played high back up to Harrold on edge of area who flicks it over keeper who was poorly positioned after pushing up from clearance.

37th minute: free kick played up to Harrold’s head, wins the header on edge of the box but it goes a yard past far post.

38th minute: long ball again flicked on by Harrold, but defender makes last ditch tackle on Paterson when through on goal.

38th minute: another Harrold flick on finds Paterson, is one on one but hits the shot over the bar.

46th minute: a Mooney flick on is just too far ahead of Harrold for him to latch onto.

84th minute: defender beats Harrold to header but flicked behind for a corner.

91st minute: ball crossed to Mooney’s feet at near post, saved shot is tapped in by Harrold, 3-0.

92nd minute: Harrold flick on across to Betsy on the right wing, beats 2 men then gets fouled by the corner flag.

Harrold, Paterson and Mooney finished with ratings of 9,8 and 7 respectively. Won 3-0

Game 2 v Hartlepool away(target man – Harrold - to head)

Observations

27th minute: first time with the ball in the game. Free kick played up to Harrold, doesn’t win header but defender only flicks behind for a corner.

47th minute: long ball from Stockley (DL) up to Harrold, flicked on into path of Paterson but he misses a great one on one chance putting it wide.

77th minute: long ball by Stockley up to Harrold in the area, beaten to header by defender but flicked behind again. Harrold picked up a knock from this challenge so wasn’t effective for the rest of the game.

Harrold finished on a 6, but had an injury. Paterson and Mooney got 7s. Drew 0-0.

Game 3 v Grimsby at home (target man – Mooney – to feet)

Observations

Most of the first half play wasn’t directed to Mooney, but instead to Paterson’s feet which confused me a little.

41st minute: a cross from the right played short into the area to Mooney’s feet, who passes short to Torres in the centre of the penalty area but ball is cleared.

63rd minute: short pass to Mooney in the area who was free but close range shot was saved.

86th minute: Mooney came short to twice link up play but didn’t provide any chances

89th minute: short pass from Martin to Mooney in the area who plays it back to Martin, whose cross is headed clear.

Didn’t play as well in the first game v Grimsby, but balls didn’t find the strikers – especially Mooney – as easily.

All three strikers finished with 7 ratings. Lost 2-0

Game 4 v Hartlepool away (target man – Mooney – to feet)

Observations

No forward play in the first half to observe target man effect. Only times ball was near Mooney was from goal kicks, where he lost the headers.

64th minute: flick on by Harrold found Poole free on the left who crossed low to the back post for Mooney to score a diving header, 1-1.

This game didn’t give much of an insight into this target man instruction at all!

All three strikers finished with a rating of 7. drew 1-1

Game 5 v Grimsby at home (target man – Paterson – run onto ball)

Observations

2nd minute: attempted ball over-the-top to Paterson headed away by defence.

62nd minute: ball down line for run of Harrold but his cross is caught by the keeper.

68th minute: Harrold flicks a ball onto Paterson but he’s restricted to a long shot that goes over.

72nd minute: long ball down left wing looking for run of Paterson. Right back flicks it behind for a corner.

All 3 strikers finished on a 7 rating. Drew 1-1.

Game 6 v Hartlepool away (target man – Paterson – run onto ball)

Observations

5th minute: long ball from midfield looking for run of Paterson but cut out by Hartlepool right back.

5th minute: ball over defence but too quick to Paterson to get on the end of.

6th minute: Poole (AML) came inside just over half way line and passed to Paterson who had made a run to the left wing. Turns inside defender and crosses low into area for Poole to finish, 1-0.

13th minute: Betsy (AMR) passes long along ground looking for run of Mooney on right wing. Defender got to the ball first but Mooney out muscled him then was brought down by defender for a penalty, which Mooney scored, 2-0.

37th minute: ball over top again too far for strikers, caught by keeper.

58th minute: long ball to right wing finds run of Harrold but his cross is blocked for a corner.

79th minute: long ball to Paterson on the left wing in space. Gets to byline, comes inside and crosses low for Harrold at the near post to score, 3-0.

92nd minute: through ball to Paterson but touch lets him down, defender clears but Paterson could have been through on goal.

Paterson got an 8 rating and man of the match, Mooney and Harrold got a 7 each. Won 3-0

Game 7 v Grimsby at home (no target man)

Wasn’t sure how to rotate the strikers so started with Harrold and Paterson. Mooney was on the bench for a change if needbe.

Observations

10th minute: ball up to Harrold who knocked it back to Torres. A couple of passes later and ball up to Harrold again just outside the penalty area, flicked on to Paterson who is one on one with the keeper, 1-0.

18th minute: Poole in space plays a ball for Paterson to run onto ahead of him on left side. Comes inside, but shot from quite narrow angle is saved.

20th minute: Harrold loses header but Torres passes through ball for Paterson who had similar chance for 1st goal but was saved.

39th minute: Harrold flicked on to Torres on edge of area, who’s pushed for a free kick.

60th minute: Ball over top to Harrold, but too quick and runs through to the keeper.

64th minute: Ball over top for run of Mooney (on for Paterson), but Mooney not quite quick enough and keeper came out and cleared.

72nd minute: Long ball up to Harrold, defender wins header but only flicks it behind him. Harrold keeps it in on the right side, crosses in low for Mooney who’s free in the centre, 3-1.

75th minute: Ball over the top for Harrold to chase. Beats defender to ball who then brings Harrold down outside penalty area on right side.

86th minute: Harrold heads a high pass down to Mooney who beats a man just inside area but hits shot over the bar when one on one with the keeper.

Harrold got a 9, Mooney and Paterson finished on 7. Won 3-1.

Game 8 v Hartlepool away (no target man)

In this game, I started with Harrold and Paterson due to Harrold getting a rating of 9 in the last game and my scout saying that Hartlepool’s defence could be troubled by pace.

Observations

11th minute: Torres intercepts a pass and plays a short pass to Harrold who takes it inside penalty area but hits shot just wide.

11th minute: From the goal kick, Torres heads forward to Harrold who beats the defender to ball but shoots the one on one chance wide.

20th minute: Harrold flicks balls out to Betsy on right wing but his cross is cleared.

26th minute: Through ball for run of Paterson too fast and just gets to keeper first.

45th minute: High ball up to Harrold who flicks on to Paterson but defender makes good interception.

47th minute: High ball to Harrold flicked on to Oakes (on as a sub effectively for Torres) in right side of penalty area but his shot is wide.

Torres was sent off half way through first half which hampered me slightly. Strikers got a 6 or 7. Lost 5-1 (crumbled in last 20 minutes at 1-1 when would have gone more defensive in real game)

Conclusions

It seems that target man 'to head' or no target man worked most effectively for me. i'm going to continue to not use a target man for the time being, but then i'll go through the games again and play a target man 'to head' and then compare shots/shots on target/goals.

Hope that helps

[Gabi80]

Still poor passing....

And

Table:

i started with -10 points

I decide this passing to players d-line 7 + counter attack and 12 for tempo)

dr-14

dc-14

dmc12

mr, amc, sc- 7

what is wrong?

[wwfan]

@ crazy gra: I can now play FM, so no worries as to using players I know. Can you tell me the passing and possession percentages on those games. Also, the FWRs settings? Please read this...

Forward Runs and Attacking

These have ben significantly reprogrammed and work very, very differently than they did in '06. I now believe they are key as to dominating possession. The most important area is FWRs for attackers.

When playing AI teams I noticed that, in a flat midfield, the AI MCs were playing as an MCd and MCa. One would always link up with the attack and one would sit in front of the back four. My MCs didn't seem to do this and constantly got in the way of each other. It didn't seem to matter if I split their mentalities a la RoT or left them on the same mentality with Ro3 blocks. As I believe the AI is pretty much Global, I decided another factor must be determining relative positions. I played one MC with no FWRs and the other with them on Often, and voila, a split MCd/MCa midfield which was beginning to offer better passing options. Prevously I had been splitting them as either Rarely/Mixed or Mixed/Often, but the new split of Rarely/Often was the bomb!

Possession grew steadily, and was beginning to match the AI. I was suffering from supersaint's problem of defending with reasonable efficiency (as my team only has one defender who has tackling better than 2, this is very relative), having a fantastic goals per shot on target ration (close to 50%), but not creating enough of them. I wanted to be able to have 55%+ possession, which, I assumed would produce more chances, and, if my G/SOT ration stayed high, a lot of quality performances.

I was suffering from the same issues many have reported: isolated attackers. Neither RoT nor Ro3 seemed to make any difference. They still lost possession all too easily. Then came the brainwave. My FC was a dominating target man who was winning 75%+ of his headers (H13-J14 is huge at Conf North level) and was scoring but not assisting. He kept on winning balls in the air but the opposition kept on picking up the scraps. So, I reduced his FWRs to rarely, with the other FC on mixed. Instant results. In the next two games he assisted 4 goals from 5, three being flick ons to the faster mixed FWRs FC, and one being a cushioned header back to the breaking MCa. Passing percentage went through the roof, with a 10% advantage over the AI, and I began to dominate possession (58% game one; 52% game two). I also improved crossing to being 10-15% better than the AI and was still winning 75%+ headers.

Observationally, the FC Target Man was dropping deeper to win headers, but with the wingers and MCa on FWRs often, and the FC on mixed, he was heading balls to players close to him, which was tearing the opposition apart. The old issue of stiker isolation was gone, and the team played compact, attractive football. Chance conversion remained high, but there were more of them. I think this is a KEY element to beating the AI in '07 and is a massive shift in thinking from '06.

...and report back on if it improves testing performance. Obviously, I am basing the above on a Target Man to head, and I think Run onto Ball needs different settings, with the TM FWRs being Mixed or Often, but the other FC remaining at FWRs Rarely.

@ Gabi80:

Your away performance is exceptional. I would imagine you need to play wider at home, with passing focus down both flanks. Try and get the FBs involved by giving them higher FWRs. There isn't very much wrong at all. It only needs the slightest of adjustments.

[crazy gra]

Originally posted by wwfan:

@ crazy gra: I can now play FM, so no worries as to using players I know. Can you tell me the passing and possession percentages on those games. Also, the FWRs settings? Please read this...

i thought by your posts you had the game, but couldn't where you said it. i haven't been on here for a couple of days.

i didn't save any of the matches im afraid, although i still have the stats from the two games without a target man when i played them for real. i'll take a look tomorrow as i've just closed my game down.

the forward run settings are:

rarely for defenders

often for the other 6 outfield players.

i have them on rarely for defenders because this tactic is a 4/6 sort of system so i need to try to ensure my defenders are all in position for when i'm defending as i don't play a DM or MCd.

i'll read the FWRs post and everything else you've said tomorrow, im off to bed! good to know you've got the game, now get wycombe to the premiership!

[MaVeRiXxX]

wwfan, I just started a new game with Ajax, and have created the following tactic to use for testing. I'll start with making three savegames after the pre-season friendlies, and go through half a season with each.

I have created a a standard 4-3-3 tactic, looking like this:

Ajax Home 1

Team Instructions are:

Mentality 13

CF 13

PS 7

Tempo 13

Width 13

CD 13

TW 13

DL 13

Tackling Normal

Focus Mixed

Marking Zonal

TMS To Head

TM No

Use TM Yes

Use PM Yes

Offside No

Counter No

I won't get into detail now about player instructions, but I'm using most of your testing results as far as FWR are concerned.

I hope I can get some answers regarding the use of a PM, the arrows, and mainly how to get good games

Do you have anything you might like me to try using this formation?

Cheers, R.

[wwfan]

Not particularly. I am interested in posession stats, passing completion, goals/shot on target, plus a qualitative analysis of the TM and PM performance. Looking forward to seeing your results.

[Garate]

Crazy ga,

It may be important checking the type of defenders Hartelpool and Grimsby played in your test. It could give some indication as why to head or no target man gave the best results.

[MaVeRiXxX]

And here's the other two formations I will be trying:

Ajax Home 2

http://home.quicknet.nl/qn/prive/mc.schonhage/FM2007/4-3-3_2.bmp

And Ajax Home 3

http://home.quicknet.nl/qn/prive/mc.schonhage/FM2007/4-3-3_3.bmp

Cheers, R.

[Garate]

wwfan,

I've tested AMC with no FWR and there's clearly more involvement. I think we need to fiddle with mentality and maybe farrows to find the best settings. I can see a quality player being a great PM without FWRs.

TM with Run onto Ball and no FWRs doesn't work well as you mentioned. However I didn't try no FWRs for the second FC.

Don't you think no FWRs should be compensated with higher CF and mentality?

[wwfan]

Originally posted by Garate:

wwfan,

I've tested AMC with no FWR and there's clearly more involvement. I think we need to fiddle with mentality and maybe farrows to find the best settings. I can see a quality player being a great PM without FWRs.

TM with Run onto Ball and no FWRs doesn't work well as you mentioned. However I didn't try no FWRs for the second FC.

Don't you think no FWRs should be compensated with higher CF and mentality?

I haven't had the opportunity to test much, as the idea came to me as I was drifting off to sleep last night. I believe there will be some best combinations but can't really theorise them right now. Try the following as a guide for preliminary testing.

Target Man Settings

Balls to Feet: FWRs rarely and Hold Up Ball with second FC FRWs often

Balls to Head: FWrs rarely with second FC FRWs mixed

Run onto Balls: FWRs often + second FC with FRWs rarely

Playmaker Settings

MCd FWRs rarely and direct passing + High CF

AMC FWRs rarely and mixed passing + high CF

[crazy gra]

Originally posted by wwfan:

@ crazy gra: I can now play FM, so no worries as to using players I know. Can you tell me the passing and possession percentages on those games. Also, the FWRs settings? Please read this...

as i said, i can only give stats from the games i played for real, which were without a target man.

v Grimsby:

possession - me: 53%, grimsby: 47%

passing - me: 67%, grimsby: 74%

v Hartlepool:

possession - me: 49%, hartlepool: 51%

passing - me: 63%, hartlepool: 65%

Crazy gra,

It may be important checking the type of defenders Hartelpool and Grimsby played in your test. It could give some indication as why to head or no target man gave the best results.

Grimsby's defenders weren't too quick, only their left back had pace > 10 i think. they were all quite good defensively though i.e. good tackling and marking. the DCs didn't have great aerial stats i.e. jumping and strength, one had 13/10 and the other had 12/16, but harrold has 15 and 14 respectively, which made him very effective in the air. the 'to head' test seemed to be most effective against grimsby.

grimsby's starting back 4 were:

mcdermott

whittle

fenton

croft

hartlepool's defenders were a little quicker than grimsby's, but not by much. they were probably also a little better defensively and the DCs also have better aerial stats. the run onto ball test seemed to perform best against hartlepool. their starting back 4 were:

barron

tom clarke (on loan)

nelson

mcdaid

[MaVeRiXxX]

Here's the Player Instruction's I'm using:

FB's:

Mentality 13

CF 12

Passing 7

CD 8

CB's:

Mentality 8

CF 7

Passing 12

CD 12

MCd:

Mentality 8

CF 7

Passing 12

CD 16

MCa's:

Mentality 13

CF 12

Passing 7

CD 12

WF's:

Mentality 17

CF 16

Passing 5

CD 12

FC:

Mentality 17

CF 16

Passing 5

CD 12

Tackling is Defence Mixed, Midfield Hard, Attack Easy.

FWR's are Rarely for GK, CB's, MCd, and FC, Mixed for WF's, and Often for FB's and MCa's.

RWB is Mixed for all except CB's and MCd, them being Rarely.

Long Shots are Rarely for all Defenders, Mixed for MCd and Attackers, and Often for MCa's.

Through Balls are Mixed for all but Midfield, who are Often.

Cross Ball Rarely for CB's and FC, Mixed for Midfield and Often for FB's and FW's.

All are set to Zonal Marking, which changes when playing against a 1 or 3 striker formation, where one CB has the freedom to CD and make FWR's, while the other three Man-Mark the opposition.

Also I have my two FW's to Swap Position with each other, as well as the two MCa's to do the same.

FC is TM and MCa's are PM.

I'll post the first results in a couple of days, but so far I'm seeing quite a lot of potential, I'll keep you posted on this, as this tactic will for sure become pretty good (Allready drew Arsenal and won PSV).

[vasilli07]

Target Man SettingsBalls to Feet: FWRs rarely and Hold Up Ball with second FC FRWs oftenBalls to Head: FWrs rarely with second FC FRWs mixedRun onto Balls: FWRs often + second FC with FRWs rarely

Hi, what mentality and passing style do u use for your target man?

[MaVeRiXxX]

I'm off to work right now, just finished all Pre-Season friendlies and I must say I'm very impressed with the way I'm performing right now, check the stats:

Score, Possession, Shots/oG, Passing, Crossing, Tackling, Avg. Rating.

Away Versus Bochum, 3-3, 53%, 6/3, 78%, 22%, 84%, 7.3

Away Versus Ajax CT, 2-1, 53%, 11/3, 71%, 27%, 64%, 7.8

Home Versus Arsenal, 2-2 (4-3 Pen), 48%, 7/4, 62%, 18%, 62%, 8.1

Home Versus PSV (Super Cup), 4-0, 52%, 19/10, 67%, 48%, 69%, 9.0

Home Versus Spartak Moscow (CL Qual.), 5-1, 48%, 13/10, 69%, 35%, 70%, 9.2

As you can see, the weird numbers there are Crossing being a bit low and Heading very good against Bochum.

If I may say, this does look to have a -2 Potential, right?

I'll get back tonight with the last (just arranged) Friendly and some Comp. Matches.

Cheers, R.

[b_mack_]

Supersaint-

I really enjoyed reading your Leeds tests. I am new to the tactical theory game so forgive me if I have missed something.

I was looking at your concern about creating chances, particularly when you were away and facing better opponents and I wondered if you would consider giving your FCs sarrows.

I would think that since your FC’s are expected run with the ball, and you wingers are kind of holding back to maintain your shape and organization, this might allow your FCs to play with some width and give you counter attack more teeth.

I suppose it depends on personnel, and I haven’t tried it so it is only a theory, and I see you have shifted you tactics with your new squad, so maybe this is pointless, but I thought I’d offer it.

Thanks again for all the work and postings

[Spikeman]

Originally posted by wwfan:

Major Observation

Another great read by wwfan

I tested this out with my Reddich side and found out that for me the best setting for the FB's is mixed. Another setting is giving the AI to much opportunities to send in deadly crosses. Also I seem to create very little chances..

These settings seems to apply for both home and away games.

[crazy gra]

wwfan:

very interesting read on FWRs, and it jogs my mind back to something bold i tried not so long ago.

on my man utd game, i was thinking of playing my target man (mixed) at AMC to see if it resulted in flick-ons that didn't go through to the opposition keeper as much, especially when the opposition are playing a deep d-line. i didn't have any farrows on the target man at AMC, but he often went forward to make a second ST instead of drifting around in 'the hole'.

i tried lowering his mentality and CD to see if he'd stay in the AMC more, but that didn't help. not that i thought about it at the time, but i would have had both my AMC and FC on often FWRs which seems like the problem. i could give that another try, but i'm not sure how effective it would be as hardly any balls were played to the AMC target man as if he wasn't a target man at all.

i'm definitely going to give changing the FWRs like you said in an attempt to get more space in midfield and also trying to get my full backs forward and perhaps overlapping.

[ambi]

Originally posted by wwfan:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Garate:

wwfan,

I've tested AMC with no FWR and there's clearly more involvement. I think we need to fiddle with mentality and maybe farrows to find the best settings. I can see a quality player being a great PM without FWRs.

TM with Run onto Ball and no FWRs doesn't work well as you mentioned. However I didn't try no FWRs for the second FC.

Don't you think no FWRs should be compensated with higher CF and mentality?

I haven't had the opportunity to test much, as the idea came to me as I was drifting off to sleep last night. I believe there will be some best combinations but can't really theorise them right now. Try the following as a guide for preliminary testing.

Target Man Settings

Balls to Feet: FWRs rarely and Hold Up Ball with second FC FRWs often

Balls to Head: FWrs rarely with second FC FRWs mixed

Run onto Balls: FWRs often + second FC with FRWs rarely

Playmaker Settings

MCd FWRs rarely and direct passing + High CF

AMC FWRs rarely and mixed passing + high CF </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What mentality do you suggest for a targetman?

I currently have the MCa at 17, the MCd at 15 and both fast strikers on 17. The wingers are at 15.

Would a mentality difference of 2 (ment. 15)enough for the targetman to stay deeper for flick-ons?

[bean feast]

So FM has become a scientific experiment? Soon, after every avenue is explored, when all the programming has been cracked, and we can reach 60% possession, 75% tackling, and a win ratio of 100%, the one thing that will be lacking will be fun.

Keep playing in your white coats holding your data clipboards fellas. Wallow in your empirical and scientific methodical success knowing that when every slider has been tweaked to the nth degree, that you will have all transcended mathematics itself. You will forever be remembered as existing on the same mantle as euclid of Alexandria, Henri Poincare, and Sir Isaac Newton himself. It's amusing to picture one of you having a Eureka moment in the bath: "Oh my goodness! I cracked it! Mentality should have been on 14! It's 14!"

[jep]

Originally posted by bean feast:

So FM has become a scientific experiment? Soon, after every avenue is explored, when all the programming has been cracked, and we can reach 60% possession, 75% tackling, and a win ratio of 100%, the one thing that will be lacking will be fun.

Keep playing in your white coats holding your data clipboards fellas. Wallow in your empirical and scientific methodical success knowing that when every slider has been tweaked to the nth degree, that you will have all transcended mathematics itself. You will forever be remembered as existing on the same mantle as euclid of Alexandria, Henri Poincare, and Sir Isaac Newton himself. It's amusing to picture one of you having a Eureka moment in the bath: "Oh my goodness! I cracked it! Mentality should have been on 14! It's 14!"

So have you managed to come up with a tactic that brings your team success, and if so how did you come about this creation ??

Or are you just posting here to try and make fun of people - because if you are then thats a little childish.

[Guest]

Originally posted by bean feast:

So FM has become a scientific experiment? Soon, after every avenue is explored, when all the programming has been cracked, and we can reach 60% possession, 75% tackling, and a win ratio of 100%, the one thing that will be lacking will be fun.

Keep playing in your white coats holding your data clipboards fellas. Wallow in your empirical and scientific methodical success knowing that when every slider has been tweaked to the nth degree, that you will have all transcended mathematics itself. You will forever be remembered as existing on the same mantle as euclid of Alexandria, Henri Poincare, and Sir Isaac Newton himself. It's amusing to picture one of you having a Eureka moment in the bath: "Oh my goodness! I cracked it! Mentality should have been on 14! It's 14!"

Seems to me like somebodys rattled your cage!

Having said that you did give me a good laugh and im guessing that your struggling with the tactic aspect of things hence the sarcasm billowing from you.

[paz]

So FM has become a scientific experiment? Soon, after every avenue is explored, when all the programming has been cracked, and we can reach 60% possession, 75% tackling, and a win ratio of 100%, the one thing that will be lacking will be fun.

Keep playing in your white coats holding your data clipboards fellas. Wallow in your empirical and scientific methodical success knowing that when every slider has been tweaked to the nth degree, that you will have all transcended mathematics itself. You will forever be remembered as existing on the same mantle as euclid of Alexandria, Henri Poincare, and Sir Isaac Newton himself. It's amusing to picture one of you having a Eureka moment in the bath: "Oh my goodness! I cracked it! Mentality should have been on 14! It's 14!"

Welcome to 2006.

[Noel Gallagher]

Originally posted by bean feast:

So FM has become a scientific experiment? Soon, after every avenue is explored, when all the programming has been cracked, and we can reach 60% possession, 75% tackling, and a win ratio of 100%, the one thing that will be lacking will be fun.

Keep playing in your white coats holding your data clipboards fellas. Wallow in your empirical and scientific methodical success knowing that when every slider has been tweaked to the nth degree, that you will have all transcended mathematics itself. You will forever be remembered as existing on the same mantle as euclid of Alexandria, Henri Poincare, and Sir Isaac Newton himself. It's amusing to picture one of you having a Eureka moment in the bath: "Oh my goodness! I cracked it! Mentality should have been on 14! It's 14!"

I wondered how long it would take for someone to come & try to ruin a very good thread

There's too many people who say that the game is rubbish just cos they can't play it.

Anyway, back to tactics............

[Uncle Sam]

I'm playing as a Lower League side in Brazil and I started messing about with a fast target man. He has 16 pace (lightning at this level). I set his forward runs on often and set the Target Man distribution to Run onto ball. So far the results are promising, though only matches into the experiment:

at Sao Raimendo 2-0 win (TM nets 2 goals)

Bare 3-0 win (TM nets a hat trick)

at Fast Clube (TM nets 2 goals)

Juazeiro 0-0 draw

Obviously, he won't score every time. But 7 goals in 4 matches is promising. The Juazeiro draw was also a midweek game so he wasn't entirely fit. I'm going to continue this experiment.

[Garate]

I'm sure once we get 60% possession, 75% tackling and 100% win, it'll stop soon being fun. However the fun part is the processes of figuring out how to get that. That's creating tactics, and I find it one of the most enjoyables parts of the game.

So cleaverly written bean feast, you can make a good cartoon out of it, but now back to fun, back to tactics indeed.

[Guest]

I know this is slightly off topic but I wasn't sure where to post it but dont you think it would be a good idea if they had a counter next to each slider so we know exactly what number it is on. It pee's me off having to keep counting the clicks where as if we could just look at the number indicator at the side it would save so much trouble and surley would be easy to implement into the game.

[Joor]

60% possession is something I often get with my Ajax team..well not vs barcelona or Milan which also use a slow, small passing, patience playstyle.

[bean feast]

I'm just having a crack at you all. Actually, I am somewhat successful. I've finished 4th in the Premiership with Swansea after 3 seasons. I have been an avid fan and player of these games for over a decade. Anyway, that's irrelevant here in the hypothesis house.

It's just a little disheartening to see what this forum has become. Wwfan actually had a revelation while he was trying to get to sleep for God's sake. And trust me, I know all about the compulsion and the addictiveness involved with FM, but come on people—figure it out for yourselves. By figuring it out mathematically and scientifically is surely taking away from your enjoyment of the game? I have no problem with the theories and stuff (how this thread begun a year ago), but this has turned into everyone analyzing the stats and recording percentages. This means nothing. It's all about results.

[Guest]

Originally posted by bean feast:

I'm just having a crack at you all. Actually, I am somewhat successful. I've finished 4th in the Premiership with Swansea after 3 seasons. I have been an avid fan and player of these games for over a decade. Anyway, that's irrelevant here in the hypothesis house.

It's just a little disheartening to see what this forum has become. Wwfan actually had a revelation while he was trying to get to sleep for God's sake. And trust me, I know all about the compulsion and the addictiveness involved with FM, but come on people—figure it out for yourselves. By figuring it out mathematically and scientifically is surely taking away from your enjoyment of the game? I have no problem with the theories and stuff (how this thread begun a year ago), but this has turned into everyone analyzing the stats and recording percentages. This means nothing. It's all about results.

I understand where your coming from but people get different enjoyment out of this game. Some go for instant success and want a successful tactic with a bi club others like to make there own and go many seasons winning absolutely nothing whilst others like to create tactics again and again and gain so I say let them be how they want so long as your enjoying the game thats the main thing.

If you look at it another way with a ratio of 1-20 SI have made it fairly difficult for the average gamer to comprehend infact I think all of us at some stage do not fully understand all of the sliders and how they all work in conjunction with one another. Many of use have theorys and thats really what they are theorys!

[Guest]

Originally posted by nonleague:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bean feast:

I'm just having a crack at you all. Actually, I am somewhat successful. I've finished 4th in the Premiership with Swansea after 3 seasons. I have been an avid fan and player of these games for over a decade. Anyway, that's irrelevant here in the hypothesis house.

It's just a little disheartening to see what this forum has become. Wwfan actually had a revelation while he was trying to get to sleep for God's sake. And trust me, I know all about the compulsion and the addictiveness involved with FM, but come on people—figure it out for yourselves. By figuring it out mathematically and scientifically is surely taking away from your enjoyment of the game? I have no problem with the theories and stuff (how this thread begun a year ago), but this has turned into everyone analyzing the stats and recording percentages. This means nothing. It's all about results.

I understand where your coming from but people get different enjoyment out of this game. Some go for instant success and want a successful tactic with a big club others like to make there own and go many seasons winning absolutely nothing whilst others like to create tactics again and again and gain so I say let them be how they want so long as your enjoying the game thats the main thing.

If you look at it another way with a ratio of 1-20 SI have made it fairly difficult for the average gamer to comprehend infact I think all of us at some stage do not fully understand all of the sliders and how they all work in conjunction with one another. Many of use have theorys and thats really what they are theorys! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[bean feast]

Don't you realise that you are moving away from the fantasy of being involved in football, and are moving more towards cracking the program with the correct placement of sliders and such? You are creating exactly what it is that you don't want—an instruction booklet of how to crack the code. How do enjoy the game by 'testing' it rather than 'playing' it? I'm not talking low of anyone, I'm just having a hard time understanding. The thing that baffles me too is the fact that you will NEVER EVER know if what you are theorizing is correct. There are far too many variables.

[Dayle Wood]

Another thing to remember is that there are many hundreds of people, may more, that struggle with FM2007 and find it very difficult to attain a level of success straight out of the box like they had assumed.

Therefore people like Rashidi, Cleon and WWfan (sorry to those other I have neglected to mention) are in fact providing a valuable service to those many hundreds of people, some of whom are relying on all the 'testing results' so that they can apply the sound knowledge learnt and improve their own enjoyment of the game.

Otherwise you would have lots of people thinking the game sucks because it is too hard when in fact it simply requires the tactical immersion that these experts exalt in.

[Scotty_LFC]

Hi, these theories are a good read

I was wondering if somebody could run me through the neccessary things I need for playing in the Conference South

Things like how much closing down needed, passing style (direct or long?) etc??

Much appreciated and KUTGW everyone

[bean feast]

Point taken Dayle, but I feel that the FM series is (thankfully) heading in the direction of becoming a football RPG if you like. It's a heavy duty game and requires a good knowledge of the beautiful sport of football. I have always been successful in these games and it's because I am a fan, a player all my life, and I have a decent idea as to how the game should be played from the tactical aspect. I would hedge a bet that the most successful managers of FM too have a grasp of the game. I just can't see the enjoyment or the point in spending the dough on the game to come on here and ask people how to succeed. Work it out yourself or don't play the game I would say. It's a big investment in time— my wife will tell you that.

[Dayle Wood]

Originally posted by bean feast:

Point taken Dayle, but I feel that the FM series is (thankfully) heading in the direction of becoming a football RPG if you like. It's a heavy duty game and requires a good knowledge of the beautiful sport of football. I have always been successful in these games and it's because I am a fan, a player all my life, and I have a decent idea as to how the game should be played from the tactical aspect. I would hedge a bet that the most successful managers of FM too have a grasp of the game. I just can't see the enjoyment or the point in spending the dough on the game to come on here and ask people how to succeed. Work it out yourself or don't play the game I would say. It's a big investment in time— my wife will tell you that.

well It's like most things in life - if you want to improve you have to practise - so in that respect you are right. If people want to play it without looking in here then that is their choice but there are plenty of other people who DO want help so that they can learn the tactics and apply them to their own game. Many of those people are not tactical masterminds and some logical assumptions about how the game should be played will not occur to them.

Did you learn to play Chess on your own? My bet is that someone showed you many many years ago. My point is if the help is there and they want it then good for them.

There is nothing wrong with acquiring more knowledge.... after all knowledge is power.

[wwfan]

Originally posted by bean feast:

Don't you realise that you are moving away from the fantasy of being involved in football, and are moving more towards cracking the program with the correct placement of sliders and such? You are creating exactly what it is that you don't want—an instruction booklet of how to crack the code. How do enjoy the game by 'testing' it rather than 'playing' it? I'm not talking low of anyone, I'm just having a hard time understanding. The thing that baffles me too is the fact that you will NEVER EVER know if what you are theorizing is correct. There are far too many variables.

Surely this is slightly paradoxical. We are cracking the game by discovering best placements, yet will never know if we are correct!

In my opening thread I do post a warning:

Due to the excellent contribution of many fabulous tacticians over the last year, TT&F has developed into a tactics guide par excellence, but, it does have its limitations and pitfalls. It is extremely useful as an expansion to the tactics guide in the game manual and offers additional information and ideas for perusal. I do not think that this level of detail contained in the thread should be provided in the game manual as many will not want to follow the ‘do it by numbers’ approach to playing and would prefer to work things out on their own. If you prefer to take such an approach to playing FM, this thread may not be for you. For those that are tactically frustrated or wish to have a more detailed explanation, please read on.

I am not unaware of the issues you mention and agree that other approaches are possibly more valid in pure footballing terms. It must be remembered that TT&F was born during the early stages of '06 when the comeback issue was ruining the enjoyment of the game for many, many people. The amount of complaints this year are miniscule compared to then. For many, TT&F became to go to thread to help out on this specific issue (helped by being stickied in GQ by PaulC).

Its popularity has, if anything, increased this year. It provides a service which people can take or leave. As long as people keep contributing or translating it, then I'll continue managing it and spend a degree of my FM playing time trying to work out issues that are causing people troublee. To be honest, most issues are quite quickly solved with a little logical application combined with some level of football knowledge. Once I have an idea of how to do something, I post here with specific values for a base tactic. Others do the same. Once people have issues that are bothering them answered, they can start to go their own way and play to their heart's content. I enjoy contributing tac tically as much as I enjot playinf FM, or I wouldn't do it. I'm sure others will say the same.

[jtgarton]

maybe wwfan could do rameworks for updated tactics like in 06? LLM Average and high skilled teams etc...

[wwfan]

D-Line

Combining Rashidi and supersaint's advice has done it for me. I use the maximum or minimum normal settings relatively for home and away games, and mirror the closing down. I'm playing with a flat 4-4-2 and these settings have made an immediate difference in how the defence performs.

Attacking

Reducing FWRs on my Balls to Head Target Man has tightened my formation up and the quality of football has improved considerably. Obviously, if you want a TM with Run onto Ball, then he should have FWRs often, but I think the 2nd FC should always be on FWRs rarely and Hold Up Ball as it allows the team to link up with greater fluidity.

To Test

Hold Up Ball on Wingers to see if it helps with FB overlapping

A RoT split where the wingers rather than the MCa have mentalities of 16, to see if it helps on crossing percentages combined with a wide formation and Focus Passes Down Both Flanks.

Reducing pass length in conjunction with the d-line for the Home formation, and increasing it away.

Th validity of Focus Passing Down Flanks with counter attack and a narrow formation to see if high mentality wingers can supplement the attack.

Rule of Two

I was concerned it was losing its potency, but it is playing how I want it to now I have changed my attacker settings and reduced FWRs. It is rock solid defensively and averages >2 goals a game so far, so I'm happy. Ideally, I would like to get the goals per game a little higher, and that is what the above tests aim to achieve.

[bluesjunior]

This is a Football Management game and management is all about tactics and theories.

You say you are a football player well I reckon that's your problem as statistically and theoretically ex players don't make the best managers in general.

This thread and others like it are an immense help to both the experienced and inexperienced player. A problem shared is sometimes a problem solved and at the very least creates discussion and that BeanFeast can only be a good thing!!.

[Noel Gallagher]

Off topic, but i'm well chuffed! Just finished my first full season with Blackburn and Barcelona have announced a link up with me!!!!!

Get in!!!

[MaVeRiXxX]

I need to get a good Away tactic for my First Home one (read post before...), anybody any ideas? Thanks...

Cheers, R.