Tactical Theorems and Frameworks '07

[MaVeRiXxX]

Just played last friendly, and I'm not gonna list the stats here, just check the pic.:

Home Versus Ajax Cape Town

[Guest]

Originally posted by MaVeRiXxX:

Just played last friendly, and I'm not gonna list the stats here, just check the pic.:

Home Versus Ajax Cape Town

Guys can we get back to what this thread is all about as its gone way off topic now.

[FourThreeThree]

Originally posted by wwfan:

I was suffering from the same issues many have reported: isolated attackers. Neither RoT nor Ro3 seemed to make any difference. They still lost possession all too easily. Then came the brainwave. My FC was a dominating target man who was winning 75%+ of his headers (H13-J14 is huge at Conf North level) and was scoring but not assisting. He kept on winning balls in the air but the opposition kept on picking up the scraps. So, I reduced his FWRs to rarely, with the other FC on mixed. Instant results. In the next two games he assisted 4 goals from 5, three being flick ons to the faster mixed FWRs FC, and one being a cushioned header back to the breaking MCa. Passing percentage went through the roof, with a 10% advantage over the AI, and I began to dominate possession (58% game one; 52% game two). I also improved crossing to being 10-15% better than the AI and was still winning 75%+ headers.

4-4-2 with arrows all the way to the top would occationally get your targetman to head balls to your all out attacking wingers into the box. It is really sexy to watch.

[bob]

has anyone come up with a comprehensive guide to passing yet?

what works best for each position?

i believe this to be more important than wwfans ROT theory, thought im not knocking it, i tried it once to the exact spec of what was given and i noticed immediately my team became disjointed and didnt look like a team anymore but that just may have been other instructions i guess, but apart from that ive always used a team mentality and had great success so im not going to change it now!

i feel that passing instructions individually can make the difference in the team!

for instance i am west ham and was very inconsistant all season up until around the end of january when i decided to watch a full match and i noticed that my team were giving the ball away to much (as i had global passing set).

so i decided to revamp the passing and it worked wonders for my team going the rest of the season unbeaten 17 games including all the big guns and without changing any other settings!

firstly i noticed it was mainly my FBs giving the ball away with unnecessary passes infield so i decided to make their passing more direct like irl whereas when the FB has the ball he very rarely passes infield unless hes in the opposition half and theres space to do so, otherwise its pretty direct playing it down the flanks, so i set it to 14!

centre backs arent always direct either as they usually look to play it to the fullbacks or a DM so i set it to the first notch of mixed so the option was there if he wanted to knock it long under pressure! (although im not sure that setting is right for this!)

my wingers would also pass it infield when they shouldnt have so i made them direct also but only first notch! any higher direct passing for my wingers or fullbacks resulted in them kicking the ball out of play a lot!

I kept my centre mids on normal passing around 8 and my strikers on short passing 4/5 although my CMs are marked very tightly usually and they sometimes get caught in possession dont know if this is down to passing though!

1 more observation, i have noticed that if you want to play possession football, short passing and slow tempo, then you need to lower your mentality setting, if your on a global setting, as your players are passing it upfield too quickly, hence your losing the ball more often! i lowered it to about 8 and my possession stats are around 60 with my pass completion around 80%, this is with juventus btw and its really cool to watch my team passing it around waiting to exploit an error by the opposition defence getting pulled out of position and then punishing it! its beaten all the top teams aswell including inter, milan and roma who won the league and champ league 1st season (i beat them in final of cup ).

I understand everyone trying to play attacking football but when i looked at my description it was listed as adventurous! so you dont need to attack to be adventurous i guess!!

has anyone else got any other ideas on passing?

P.S. apologies if this has been covered but im not on all the time and theres too many pages to catch up on that time will allow for, so i dont read everything, but im interested to hear peoples point of view as i think passing is integral to success!

[supersaint]

So another season has gone by.

This time I decided to see if there was true that the mentality was linked to the D-L, and to see if changing from ROT to Ro3 would improve passing/possession.

Just for testing purposes I set the D-L equal to the average mentality of the team, and mentality to a Ro3 version(9-12-15 home, 5-8-11 away).

I also adjusted the global team-mentality to equal the the average mentality of the team. Why? Simply because it says in the manual that if you have many players on defensive mentality and play with a higher team-mentality it can confuse the players.

So this was my thoughts when setting up the 4-4-1-1 for N.Forest:

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>

<LI> Defensive Line should be set in relation to the teams mentality

<LI> Defenders CD in relation to the Defensive Line(mirroring)

<LI> Mentality should be slightly more attacking at home or against weaker teams, than away (avg 12 at home, avg 8 away)

<LI> Passing should be set in relation to the team mentality(defensive=direct, attacking=shorter)

<LI> Width should be wider when playing direct passing game, narrower when playing short passing. Reduces distance for passes when short, and opens for counter-attacks down the flanks when playing direct

I must say that it was an instant effect in passing and possession. Whilst my other tactics, with better teams, have averaged around 65% at home, I now averaged on 75%. Away it was an increase of 3%. Possession went up by 6% at home and 4% away, meaning that I for the first time were above 50% in all matches on average.

Even though my team still dont score enough goals, I have managed to get better results here too. I think that this is down to what wwfan mentions, about FWR and keeping the team together.

Defensively it was extremely good. I let in only 3 goals from the 25 first matches, ended the season with 21 goals behind my own GK (much thanks to a 5-0 loss to Wolves ).

So for me some things seems clear:

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>

<LI> D-L is definately linked to mentality (as stated in the manual)

<LI> Passing is partially linked to mentality(as stated in the manual)

<LI> Closing down should be set according to the D-L(either by having same value, or mirroring it - depends on how you want your team to play and the ability of your players

What I still struggle with is the crossing from wingers, and isolated strikers. I think that adjusting FWR in accordance to what wwfan mentioned, could help out with both these things. Im also gonna try and change the mentality around in the midfield, depending on the width and passing focus.

[Guest anexx]

Maybe we need to make a new topik and put there all conclusions?

[Gabi80]

So for me some things seems clear:

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>

<LI> D-L is definately linked to mentality (as stated in the manual)

<LI> Passing is partially linked to mentality(as stated in the manual)

<LI> Closing down should be set according to the D-L(either by having same value, or mirroring it - depends on how you want your team to play and the ability of your players

1. D-line linked with mentality- whos mentality? ( dc? team mentality?)

2. Passing linked to mentality. The same question- so if my dc has mentality 6- passing is 6? is my fc has 18 mentality-passing is 18?

3. At last if my d-line is 7 cd for my dc is 7?

Sorry for english, please explain me this things

[MaVeRiXxX]

Originally posted by nonleague:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MaVeRiXxX:

Just played last friendly, and I'm not gonna list the stats here, just check the pic.:

Home Versus Ajax Cape Town

Guys can we get back to what this thread is all about as its gone way off topic now. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Try reading my first 3 posts on P11 here before t6aking a **** please, you might actually get it...

I'm just showing you lot why I think that the 4-3-3 formationS (multiple) I'm testing are showing quite some promise here, it's just tactical testing and exploring, not bragging about it, or whatever you're implicating...

Cheers, R.

P.S. Please take no offence in my reaction....

[supersaint]

Originally posted by Gabi80:

So for me some things seems clear:

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>

<LI> D-L is definately linked to mentality (as stated in the manual)

<LI> Passing is partially linked to mentality(as stated in the manual)

<LI> Closing down should be set according to the D-L(either by having same value, or mirroring it - depends on how you want your team to play and the ability of your players

1. D-line linked with mentality- whos mentality? ( dc? team mentality?)

2. Passing linked to mentality. The same question- so if my dc has mentality 6- passing is 6? is my fc has 18 mentality-passing is 18?

3. At last if my d-line is 7 cd for my dc is 7?

Sorry for english, please explain me this things

1. I would say to the team mentality - What I have done is to set it equal to the average mentality of all players(which is what I also have done with the team mentality). I.e. at home the average mentality of all players in my tactic is 12. Therefore I set the D-L to 12 in my home tactic.

2. From what I can read out of the manual, if you have a defensive mentality you should play more direct passing(opening for counter-attacks) - If you play with an attacking mentality, you can play with shorter passing. Players with attacking mentality should therefore have short passing, and players with defensive mentality should have a more direct passing.

3. There are two ways of setting the CD for your defenders, depending on how you want your tactic to work and what players you have. The one I have had most success with is mirroring the CD for defenders with the Defensive Line. That means in your example that with a D-L of 7, I would have defenders with CD of 13.

The other way to go(that have been successful for others) is to set the CD to the same value of the D-L, with a D-L of 7 your defenders should have closing down of 7 too.

Hope this helps

[Gabi80]

thanx for answer!!!

one more question to point one!.

i used this mentality

dc-6

dr-10

dmc-7

mr-13

amc-14

fc-12

fc-16

I used one tactic to all games( away and home)

My d-line is 8

So you suggest to give my team mentality to 8?

Also i give my DCs cd 12.

My passing is 15 for everyone!( i play with d-line 8, hard tackling and fast counter attacking style- tempo 17)

[Guest]

Originally posted by MaVeRiXxX:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nonleague:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MaVeRiXxX:

Just played last friendly, and I'm not gonna list the stats here, just check the pic.:

Home Versus Ajax Cape Town

Guys can we get back to what this thread is all about as its gone way off topic now. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Try reading my first 3 posts on P11 here before t6aking a **** please, you might actually get it...

I'm just showing you lot why I think that the 4-3-3 formationS (multiple) I'm testing are showing quite some promise here, it's just tactical testing and exploring, not bragging about it, or whatever you're implicating...

Cheers, R.

P.S. Please take no offence in my reaction.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

None taken!

[Guest]

Earlier when tinkering around with the sliders from one extreme to the other has finally made me agree with what Cleon had stated that the D Line only comes into effect when your team is NOT in possession.

But I think that I have discovered something else that nobody seems to have mentioned and please this is only my opinion but the Width slider only comes into effect when your team has possession.

Now if this is the case then in my interpretation would mean the following:

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre"> Wide play = Pass to Flanks

High D Line = Shorter Passing </pre>

Now that may very well seem obvious but with shorter passing, Wide Play, Pass to Flanks that would allow you to possibly play a High D line to keep the ball in the oppositions half and give you room to allow your Full Backs with FWR set to Often.

Im not entirely sure where im going with this post as I have only had a couple of hours sleep but I have played a few games at home with the following and we dominated possesion and passing accuracy was around 75%:

Width - 20

D Line - 20

Passing - Flanks

Full Backs - Often

Passing - 1st notch of mix

Give it a try and see for yourself what happens. Remember this is only my opinion and is not 100% correct, remember I have only had a couple of hours sleep!

[Asmodeus]

I've always thought that nonleague- your team always seems to defend narrow, irrespective of width.

[Guest]

Some observations from a couple of matches last night:

As found first by supersaint (I think) DL (defensive line) does not work in FM2007. I tried changing back and forth from the extremes, and saw no difference in back line depth. (I will call this the System Default DL setting - which I think is medium, and maybe even towards high).

With both teams thus playing with a medium/med-high System Default DL, this leads to a very compact midfield. Especially in my typically formation which is a tight 4-4-2 diamond (my ML/R are set towards the center and not on the touchline). The compactness is improved some by moving standard 4-4-2 diamond, but not much.

I think this supports wwfan's findings that playing down the flanks is the preferred method in v7.0.0.

If the DL issue is a bug, and fixed in v7.0.1, I expect the game engine to perfrom very differently.

I expect System Default DL issue is also haveing a big effect on CD (closing Down). In the compressed midfield, I think we will find using a higher CD than FM2006 will work better.

The System Default DL/compressed midfield would lead me to want midfielders with good heading/jumping to control the 50/50 balls.

[Guest]

Originally posted by Asmodeus:

I've always thought that nonleague- your team always seems to defend narrow, irrespective of width.

I was always under the impression that the Width reffered to how your team plays as a unit whether it be attacking or defensing due to there being only one universal slider but now after tinkering around and taking a few screenshot pics it shows that when we have the ball depending the width I select is to how wide my team will go but when not in position they all seem to regroup into there natural position.

It's just that nobody has ever pointed this out and im sure this will be useful information to many people as no I have a better understanding with that particular slider.

I do have one query regarding the D Line which has got me wondering if 1 = the Goal Line and 20 = The half way line how come when my team is not in possession and I have selected D Line 1 my team do not drop all the way back to the goal line and if I were to select 20 and the opposition were to attack my defence does not stay on the Half way line?

I do agree with what Cleon said about the D Line only takes effect when your team does not have possession but am not convinced enough about the 1-20 half way line goal line conclusion. I think it works in a similar way but I think its alot more complicated than that.

For example lets say I chose 20 as my D Line and the opposition are in possession of the ball 1/3 into my half where does this mean my D Line is placed? I am finding it hard to get my point across with text but I hope you get the jist of what Im trying to say.

I feel that the D Line is working in correlation to the Mentality set up of the defensive player who is the closest to our goal line therfore the 1-20 is dictated by that in a compact way.

[Chasbien]

This is a great post and it has helped me out a lot

The problem is my head is buzzing and hurting. Would wwfan mind if you have time? to post an up to date thoughts and idea post with players inscrutions. Just like you did on page 7.

i would be very greatful to you

[Asmodeus]

Originally posted by nonleague:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Asmodeus:

I've always thought that nonleague- your team always seems to defend narrow, irrespective of width.

I was always under the impression that the Width reffered to how your team plays as a unit whether it be attacking or defensing due to there being only one universal slider but now after tinkering around and taking a few screenshot pics it shows that when we have the ball depending the width I select is to how wide my team will go but when not in position they all seem to regroup into there natural position.

It's just that nobody has ever pointed this out and im sure this will be useful information to many people as no I have a better understanding with that particular slider.

I do have one query regarding the D Line which has got me wondering if 1 = the Goal Line and 20 = The half way line how come when my team is not in possession and I have selected D Line 1 my team do not drop all the way back to the goal line and if I were to select 20 and the opposition were to attack my defence does not stay on the Half way line?

I do agree with what Cleon said about the D Line only takes effect when your team does not have possession but am not convinced enough about the 1-20 half way line goal line conclusion. I think it works in a similar way but I think its alot more complicated than that.

For example lets say I chose 20 as my D Line and the opposition are in possession of the ball 1/3 into my half where does this mean my D Line is placed? I am finding it hard to get my point across with text but I hope you get the jist of what Im trying to say.

I feel that the D Line is working in correlation to the Mentality set up of the defensive player who is the closest to our goal line therfore the 1-20 is dictated by that in a compact way. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have you tried playing with a sweeper?

Perhaps the goal/line half-way theory reflects the position of the deepest line of your team (in the case of a back four- DR, DC, DC, DR).

If team mentality/width means the pitch is loosely 20x20; then would defensive line be a sub-divider between the GK, DC and MC positions?

Perhaps a global mentality of 1 with 1 for defensive line might be worthwhile testing. If you were playing an attacking style with deepest d-line would the defence drop deep in relation to the pitch or the rest of the team itself?

[Guest]

Originally posted by Asmodeus:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nonleague:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Asmodeus:

I've always thought that nonleague- your team always seems to defend narrow, irrespective of width.

I was always under the impression that the Width reffered to how your team plays as a unit whether it be attacking or defensing due to there being only one universal slider but now after tinkering around and taking a few screenshot pics it shows that when we have the ball depending the width I select is to how wide my team will go but when not in position they all seem to regroup into there natural position.

It's just that nobody has ever pointed this out and im sure this will be useful information to many people as no I have a better understanding with that particular slider.

I do have one query regarding the D Line which has got me wondering if 1 = the Goal Line and 20 = The half way line how come when my team is not in possession and I have selected D Line 1 my team do not drop all the way back to the goal line and if I were to select 20 and the opposition were to attack my defence does not stay on the Half way line?

I do agree with what Cleon said about the D Line only takes effect when your team does not have possession but am not convinced enough about the 1-20 half way line goal line conclusion. I think it works in a similar way but I think its alot more complicated than that.

For example lets say I chose 20 as my D Line and the opposition are in possession of the ball 1/3 into my half where does this mean my D Line is placed? I am finding it hard to get my point across with text but I hope you get the jist of what Im trying to say.

I feel that the D Line is working in correlation to the Mentality set up of the defensive player who is the closest to our goal line therfore the 1-20 is dictated by that in a compact way. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have you tried playing with a sweeper?

Perhaps the goal/line half-way theory reflects the position of the deepest line of your team (in the case of a back four- DR, DC, DC, DR).

If team mentality/width means the pitch is loosely 20x20; then would defensive line be a sub-divider between the GK, DC and MC positions?

Perhaps a global mentality of 1 with 1 for defensive line might be worthwhile testing. If you were playing an attacking style with deepest d-line would the defence drop deep in relation to the pitch or the rest of the team itself? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I played a game just now away to Swansea and setup my 433 with the following...

Width 20

D Line 20

Pass - Flanks

Passing - 1st notch of Mix

Now my aim was after 22 mins to switch the D Line to 1 and see what happened with the ball regarding area of play. Well these are the statistics and bear in mind that I went 1-0 up after 10 mins and we both kept exactly the same formation farrows etc for the whole of the first half.

Action Zone

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre"> 19 - 12 / 18 - 28 / 10 - 13 57%

84%

16 - 13 / 19 - 28 / 10 - 14 56%

83% </pre>

Swansea's 3rd the ball was there 31%

Middle 3rd the ball was there 46%

My 3rd the ball was there 23%

Now after 22 mins I changed D Line to 1 and this is what happened...

Swansea's 3rd the ball was there 29%..-2% But I gained possesion there +1% they were -3%.

Middle 3rd the ball was there 47%..+1% They gained +1% in possession in this area.

My 3rd the ball was there 24%..+1% I also gained 1% possession of the ball in my half.

I had 57% possession with 84$ accuracy but after 22 mins of the change in D Line this ended up at half time with 56% possesion and 83% accuracy.

So even though I changed my D Line from 20 - 1 and we both played the same formatino farrows etc I actually had an increase in both 3rds by 1% and they only gained possession 1% in the middle 3rd. The ball was in my 3rd 1% more by changing the D line from 20 - 1. This tells me that the D Line is non effective and I encourage anybody to try this out so they can see the results for themselves.

In conclusion the changing of the D Line from 1 - 20 maed literally a difference of 1% in my half yet I was instructing my team to fall back as soon as we lost possession. At 1% it doesnt really look like they did fall back.

[Guest]

Chasbien,

Not to speak for wwfan, but it may be a little early for an update. I think we are finding the game engine much different than before. We are also getting some conflicting reports on what works. I would alos note that the results are very short-term. Following wwfan's theory, team re-ranking occurred mid & end of season in FM2006. Things that work now, may not work in the future.

Based on the changes we have seen in the FM2007 game engine, I would not be shocked if re-ranking occurs more often in FM2007. (ie your team gets scouted/play a handful of games & teams start spreading the word how to beat you). **NOTE - no evidence here, just a guess**

I am also starting to think there may be more than 1 way to play in FM2007. I am starting to think blending the right players & tactics may be more important in FM2007 than in the past. I think this will also be more important in LL, than in the Premiership.

Asmodeus,

I have done some "light" testing with a sweeper, and did not like what I saw. I have tried a sweep & sweeper w/free role. I have found the sweeper does not play much deeper than DCs. Nor does he flow to help, rather just hangs in the center. But, this might be very valuable for teams with just 1 good heading DC.

I tried a sweeper & free role with the hope this would allow him to flow to the danger areas more. And, the little testing did not show this. The sweeper did not ever flow wide to help. There was one instance he did step up well to cover on a play in the center. Seemed like it worked great here. But, not sure if a DC would not have done the same thing.

My concern with the DL is that in FM2006 it was very clear/easy to see a high or low DL. I do not see evidence of this in FM2007. I have not digested nonleague's post this AM on the topic, so I will see if he found something.

But, to me the DL & CD in FM2006 was almost exactly how I would instruct a team IRL where and when to give the opponent space, and when to take it away.

[Asmodeus]

Try it with a team mentality of 1 (ultra-defensive) and the same d-line (1).

I'm starting to ponder whether it dictates where your defence defend in relation to your midfield (without the ball). Perhaps this is why SI recommend the use of a DMC with deep defensive line?

[Guest]

Originally posted by Asmodeus:

Try it with a team mentality of 1 (ultra-defensive) and the same d-line (1).

I'm starting to ponder whether it dictates where your defence defend in relation to your midfield (without the ball). Perhaps this is why SI recommend the use of a DMC with deep defensive line?

You mean test the D Line with Global Mentality of 1? Dont you think that whatever Mentality you have set that the D Line should work regardless? To me if we set Team Mentality of 1 then our players will all be defensive minded making many backward passes and being set very deep.

How I wish SI would just explain exactly what the D Line does as so far I have found it non existent.

[Asmodeus]

Asmodeus,

I have done some "light" testing with a sweeper, and did not like what I saw. I have tried a sweep & sweeper w/free role. I have found the sweeper does not play much deeper than DCs. Nor does he flow to help, rather just hangs in the center. But, this might be very valuable for teams with just 1 good heading DC.

I tried a sweeper & free role with the hope this would allow him to flow to the danger areas more. And, the little testing did not show this. The sweeper did not ever flow wide to help. There was one instance he did step up well to cover on a play in the center. Seemed like it worked great here. But, not sure if a DC would not have done the same thing.

My concern with the DL is that in FM2006 it was very clear/easy to see a high or low DL. I do not see evidence of this in FM2007. I have not digested nonleague's post this AM on the topic, so I will see if he found something.

But, to me the DL & CD in FM2006 was almost exactly how I would instruct a team IRL where and when to give the opponent space, and when to take it away.

I haven't really used a sweeper- I'd imagine they are most effective with a high defensive line?

I'm with Cleon et al in thinking that the d-line only kicks in when you lose the ball- I think this is why most of us see little or no difference in-game. I think the other reason for this is its link to team mentality. If you're playing an attacking team mentality, then when your team gains posession they'll naturally push forward. This is why we see our defensive line so far up the pitch, irrespective of settings. This is why I'm proposing an experiment with every player (team mentality) on ultra-defensive, and d-line of 1 might be interesting.

Also, we have a d-line thread already- sorry for the hijack wwfan!

[Asmodeus]

If the team are pushing forward on the attack then the defence will never be able to drop right back to the goal-line- that's why I'm suggesting a test with ultra-defensive team mentality to see if there's any noticeable difference.

I'll try it myself when I get home from work.

[Asmodeus]

As for your second comment I feel that SI will always keep some areas of the game ambiguous. Keeps the discussion going though...

[Guest]

Originally posted by Asmodeus:

If the team are pushing forward on the attack then the defence will never be able to drop right back to the goal-line- that's why I'm suggesting a test with ultra-defensive team mentality to see if there's any noticeable difference.

I'll try it myself when I get home from work.

So your saying to test Mentality 1 universal along with D Line 1 and what am I looking for? Just a thought but maybe the D Line is in relation to your team defending from the front perhaps. So a D Line of 20 makes your Strikers push further up the pitch and the midfield to start the defending there perhaps?

It's just a guess and I wouldnt put my money on it.

So explain a bit more about the test so that I understand and then I will try it out now.

[Asmodeus]

Just to see how deep the defence go more than everything- a simple observational test. If there's a discernable difference then we can start perhaps altering group (def/mid/att) mentalities- but I'm jumping the gun now.

[Guest]

I did the test just now away to Millwall setting global mentality 1(made sure all players were set to team) and set the D Line to 1. I personally did not notice anything different about the depth my my defence although I am rather tired so maybe I have missed something. I would of expected them to be so deep due to the fact there all set to defensive minded.

With 25 mins left I set global to 20 and D Line to 20 and there was a change of the ball in my 1/3 by 3%. The differences seem to be marginal which doesnt make any sense to me. Is soembody else able to do the test to see what they find.

[Asmodeus]

Perhaps it doesn't do much after all. I'll have a look later.

[Guest]

Originally posted by Asmodeus:

Perhaps it doesn't do much after all. I'll have a look later.

But surely the Global aspect should of made a huge difference?

[supersaint]

try setting the individual players mentality between 10-20 and the global mentality to 1. Use it with D-L 1 and 20.

Then try setting the individual players mentality to 1-10 and the global mentality to 20. Use it with D-L 1 and 20

If the manual is right, this should cause some confusion for the players since you instruct the team to be either attacking or defending, whilst your indvidual instructions are telling them otherwise.

[Guest]

Originally posted by supersaint:

try setting the individual players mentality between 10-20 and the global mentality to 1. Use it with D-L 1 and 20.

Then try setting the individual players mentality to 1-10 and the global mentality to 20. Use it with D-L 1 and 20

If the manual is right, this should cause some confusion for the players since you instruct the team to be either attacking or defending, whilst your indvidual instructions are telling them otherwise.

yes I would agree that could be a bit confusing for the players but dont you think that a D Line of 1 and Global Mentality of 1 they should understand and the same for both being 20? To me it did not make any difference at all.

Boot up a game and keep it all the same for 23 mins then change the D Line from 1 to 20 and then see what the stats show at half time. What you will find is that unless the opposition changes formation that the ball is still quite balanced in the relevant 3 parts of the pitch regardless of what the D Line is.

[supersaint]

Originally posted by nonleague:

yes I would agree that could be a bit confusing for the players but dont you think that a D Line of 1 and Global Mentality of 1 they should understand and the same for both being 20? To me it did not make any difference at all.

Well, but if you set the D-L to 1 and GM to 20, and the other way around - does anything happen then?

And what if you have low individual mentality with high D-L, and the opposite?

That is why I find this fascinating, it doesnt seem to influence the game, by looking at players movement or the stats - but still it does when it comes to results

[supersaint]

I just did a minor experiment with the global settings.

My players individual mentalities were left untouched(ranging from 2-14).

Away match against Barnsley, with newly promoted Forest.

First 15 minutes:

D-L: 1

GM: 8 (my standard)

Possession: 55%

Next 15 minutes:

D-L: 1

GM: 1

Possession: 68%

Last 15 minutes:

D-L: 1

G-M: 20

Possession: 57%

So there is some effect to possession at least

[Guest]

Originally posted by supersaint:

I just did a minor experiment with the global settings.

My players individual mentalities were left untouched(ranging from 2-14).

Away match against Barnsley, with newly promoted Forest.

First 15 minutes:

D-L: 1

GM: 8 (my standard)

Possession: 55%

Next 15 minutes:

D-L: 1

GM: 1

Possession: 68%

Last 15 minutes:

D-L: 1

G-M: 20

Possession: 57%

So there is some effect to possession at least

It will depend on what your opponent is doing. If they change formation and go defensive or attacking it will change it considerably. For now boot up a game and just play the first 23 mins with the DL at 1 then note the Poss and where the ball was in the action zone, then change the DL to 20 then take a look at HT and compare the stats.

Make sure you keep an eye on the oppositions formation as if they change it then it will have a bearing. The only thing the DL should change is the % of where the ball is in the 3 parts of the pitch.

[bean feast]

I was sitting in the bath yesterday and suddenl I got it!

Take the average mentality of a 3 year old and multiply that by a 4ft defensive line. Find its square root and then divide it by your oldest grandma's age. If she's dead, calculate the number of real teeth that she had in her mouth and subtract the closing down of your local newsagents. Take this number and multiply it by the creative freedom of Picasso; compare it to the creative freedom of Dali and then the magic number should appear on the canvas. Change forward runs to backward runs and set your formation to 1-0-10. The defender should play with his long balls and pick out a target man whom can play with them too. Your goalkeeper should be your playmaker and should distribute effectively and evenly. Occasionally he should be allowed to play with the defender's long balls.

Take the magic number that should still be on the canvas and divide this by the number of times the lone defender gets his long balls played with. The number that is left is the secret formula number that you have to chant while every game is being played—with a little faith, self belief, and divine assistance, any team you play with should score 13 goals—unclucky for some.

[Guest]

Originally posted by bean feast:

I was sitting in the bath yesterday and suddenl I got it!

Take the average mentality of a 3 year old and multiply that by a 4ft defensive line. Find its square root and then divide it by your oldest grandma's age. If she's dead, calculate the number of real teeth that she had in her mouth and subtract the closing down of your local newsagents. Take this number and multiply it by the creative freedom of Picasso; compare it to the creative freedom of Dali and then the magic number should appear on the canvas. Change forward runs to backward runs and set your formation to 1-0-10. The defender should play with his long balls and pick out a target man whom can play with them too. Your goalkeeper should be your playmaker and should distribute effectively and evenly. Occasionally he should be allowed to play with the defender's long balls.

Take the magic number that should still be on the canvas and divide this by the number of times the lone defender gets his long balls played with. The number that is left is the secret formula number that you have to chant while every game is being played—with a little faith, self belief, and divine assistance, any team you play with should score 13 goals—unclucky for some.

Yet another constructive comment from Karl Marx.

[supersaint]

Originally posted by nonleague:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by supersaint:

I just did a minor experiment with the global settings.

My players individual mentalities were left untouched(ranging from 2-14).

Away match against Barnsley, with newly promoted Forest.

First 15 minutes:

D-L: 1

GM: 8 (my standard)

Possession: 55%

Next 15 minutes:

D-L: 1

GM: 1

Possession: 68%

Last 15 minutes:

D-L: 1

G-M: 20

Possession: 57%

So there is some effect to possession at least

It will depend on what your opponent is doing. If they change formation and go defensive or attacking it will change it considerably. For now boot up a game and just play the first 23 mins with the DL at 1 then note the Poss and where the ball was in the action zone, then change the DL to 20 then take a look at HT and compare the stats.

Make sure you keep an eye on the oppositions formation as if they change it then it will have a bearing. The only thing the DL should change is the % of where the ball is in the 3 parts of the pitch. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would do it, but there are so many other things to test

But it is interesting, because if we can figure out exactly how the D-L works related to mentality, it would be easier to understand why some settings just dont work - even if they make perfect sense IRL football

[Guest]

Tempo is yet another slider that does not do anything in my opinion. I have set it at 1 and 20 and my players shift the ball around just the same and the speed of the game is exactly the same not faster nor slower.

The D Line should really mean where your last line of defence starts ranging 1-20 out of 40 on the pitch so playing 20 would be suicidal unless you were a world class side playing against a really obscure team. I cannot see why it should tally in with Mentality as you could play a high DL but want to be defensive to compact the play to stop the superior side playing through there midfield as you have quick defenders the opponents will find it hard to create a way past you.

It could work the other way around also whereby a high DL means that you are not worried at all by the weak opposition and therefore can afford to push right up to keep the play in the opponents half. But they way it is functioning is all wrong and it is ridiculous that there is no indication from SI what it actually does.

Yes they say that it works in conjunction with the mentality but I do not see big differences in the action screen regarding where the ball has spent most of its time during the game to sway me with this.

[Gramstrup]

Sorry for being lazy..

Isn't there an easier way to put these tactics into FM07 than to move ALL the sliders notch by notch?

Sorry, but English is not my native language.

[wwfan]

Snipped from Asmo's d-line thread, but now has its place here:

In TT&F there are two concurrent theories on the d-line. One is based on mirroring (d-line + Closing Down = 20), the other on paralleling (d-line = Closing Down). I still think it is a littole more complex than this. You need to take into consideration variables such as passing style (i.e. a deep d-line needs a direct style to counterbalance the distance between the midfield and the defence) and pace (a high d-line is vulnerable to pace so needs quick defenders). I still like the idea of playing a high d-line away and a deep one at home, as one minimises space and the other maximises it. However, the game manual seems to argue against this and suggests a high d-line will pin defensive opposition into their own half. So, no further in terms of definition? Well, yes and no...

I can tell you what it doesn't do!

It doesn't link to midfield mentalities as it did in '06. Asmo's classic 5x5 theory stopped the FCs becoming too isolated from the defenders by matching their mentality with the height of the d-line. RoT copied this by matching the d-line with the MCa/AMC mentality. This no longer works, and the attackers seem to remain isolated no matter where you set the d-line. However, the manual says d-line is partially linked to mentality.

It is...and you need to be aware of this when setting up your system. Do not set a deep d-line with a high mentality system, or a high one with low mentalities. Try and match them to an extent whilst bearing in mind defenders' capabilities. However, wherever you set it, it will not stop your FCs becoming isolated. The only way to do that is to stop one of the FCs making forward runs. An FC who stays deep compacts the formation and, if set to hold up ball, gives all the players and the d-line time to get into position. Then the team can move up the pitch as a unit. This stops the AI from exploiting the space behind the d-line as it struggles to catch up with a direct ball to a high FWRs FC just in time for him to lose possession as there is no one to play the ball to. It then gets turned by an attacker breaking in the opposite direction.

In conclusion, d-line needs to match mentality (to an extent), be aware of defensive limitations and relies on players (FCs in fast tempo, direct games, possibly MCd in slower games) holding up the ball so it can catch up with the team once possession is gained. High forward runs for front players stop that from happening, and put the d-line under intensive pressure. The d-line CANNOT function effectively without attackers who give it time to move up the pitch. Tweak FWRs up front, and you should see a huge difference in d-line, and team, performance.

[jep]

Originally posted by bean feast:

I was sitting in the bath yesterday and suddenl I got it!

Take the average mentality of a 3 year old and multiply that by a 4ft defensive line. Find its square root and then divide it by your oldest grandma's age. If she's dead, calculate the number of real teeth that she had in her mouth and subtract the closing down of your local newsagents. Take this number and multiply it by the creative freedom of Picasso; compare it to the creative freedom of Dali and then the magic number should appear on the canvas. Change forward runs to backward runs and set your formation to 1-0-10. The defender should play with his long balls and pick out a target man whom can play with them too. Your goalkeeper should be your playmaker and should distribute effectively and evenly. Occasionally he should be allowed to play with the defender's long balls.

Take the magic number that should still be on the canvas and divide this by the number of times the lone defender gets his long balls played with. The number that is left is the secret formula number that you have to chant while every game is being played—with a little faith, self belief, and divine assistance, any team you play with should score 13 goals—unclucky for some.

Look, if you are struggling to understand the tactics just say so - you don't have to hide behind a child like manner.

[Asmodeus]

I reckon it relates to ball position.

[bean feast]

Hmmm, hide behind a child like manner. Is that actually a noun? Can I physically hide behind this? Please inform me, I am most interested. I think someone forgot his lower school english lessons. Shame on you Jep. You shouldn't have dropped out of school sunshine. Don't you know that you need a degree in this day and age?

[Guest Rafalution]

I see trolls...

Anyway, I'm getting more and more confused by this. I just tried playing Arsenal away from home on ultra defensive mentality and D line at 1. Worked a treat. Problem is, a low D line does not stop Henry from beeing a Ferrari on foot.

[lameris]

Originally posted by supersaint:

So for me some things seems clear:

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>

<LI> D-L is definately linked to mentality (as stated in the manual)

<LI> Passing is partially linked to mentality(as stated in the manual)

<LI> Closing down should be set according to the D-L(either by having same value, or mirroring it - depends on how you want your team to play and the ability of your players

If passing is linked with menality (i.e. attacking means short passing), and with width (i.e. short passing means narrower) this means that an attacking style should be narrower.

This contradicts with my opinion, which I try to base on how football is played IRL, that an attacking style should be wider. Has anyone thought about this?

[MaVeRiXxX]

Originally posted by bean feast:

I was sitting in the bath yesterday and suddenl I got it!

Take the average mentality of a 3 year old and multiply that by a 4ft defensive line. Find its square root and then divide it by your oldest grandma's age. If she's dead, calculate the number of real teeth that she had in her mouth and subtract the closing down of your local newsagents. Take this number and multiply it by the creative freedom of Picasso; compare it to the creative freedom of Dali and then the magic number should appear on the canvas. Change forward runs to backward runs and set your formation to 1-0-10. The defender should play with his long balls and pick out a target man whom can play with them too. Your goalkeeper should be your playmaker and should distribute effectively and evenly. Occasionally he should be allowed to play with the defender's long balls.

Take the magic number that should still be on the canvas and divide this by the number of times the lone defender gets his long balls played with. The number that is left is the secret formula number that you have to chant while every game is being played—with a little faith, self belief, and divine assistance, any team you play with should score 13 goals—unclucky for some.

Instant Classic, as far as I'm concerned .

btw, the answer is uncalculatable, bit dissappointing...

[MaVeRiXxX]

I'm 10 games in a new season, playing a Four-Three-Three (Click for pic), with all team instructions on 13 or 14, except for Passing Style, Time Wasting and DL and it works wonders. Being Ajax I've won the Dutch Classics against AZ, PSV and Feyenoord dominating (around 60% possession, and Action Zones like 15-50-35, with in all areas more than half mine...).

Individual Instructions are set to a global Defence, Midfield and Attack Mentality, CF, CD, Passing, etc.

Feel free to try this, and please report back with any findings and/or comments and/or ideas...Four-Three-Three (Click to dl)

Cheers, R.

[DBecks7ManU]

Originally posted by bean feast:

I was sitting in the bath yesterday and suddenl I got it!

Take the average mentality of a 3 year old and multiply that by a 4ft defensive line. Find its square root and then divide it by your oldest grandma's age. If she's dead, calculate the number of real teeth that she had in her mouth and subtract the closing down of your local newsagents. Take this number and multiply it by the creative freedom of Picasso; compare it to the creative freedom of Dali and then the magic number should appear on the canvas. Change forward runs to backward runs and set your formation to 1-0-10. The defender should play with his long balls and pick out a target man whom can play with them too. Your goalkeeper should be your playmaker and should distribute effectively and evenly. Occasionally he should be allowed to play with the defender's long balls.

Take the magic number that should still be on the canvas and divide this by the number of times the lone defender gets his long balls played with. The number that is left is the secret formula number that you have to chant while every game is being played—with a little faith, self belief, and divine assistance, any team you play with should score 13 goals—unclucky for some.

Hehehe, gotta admit, this did crack me up.

[MaVeRiXxX]

Originally posted by MaVeRiXxX:

I'm 10 games in a new season, playing a Four-Three-Three (Click for pic), with all team instructions on 13 or 14, except for Passing Style, Time Wasting and DL and it works wonders. Being Ajax I've won the Dutch Classics against AZ, PSV and Feyenoord dominating (around 60% possession, and Action Zones like 15-50-35, with in all areas more than half mine...).

Individual Instructions are set to a global Defence, Midfield and Attack Mentality, CF, CD, Passing, etc.

Feel free to try this, and please report back with any findings and/or comments and/or ideas...Four-Three-Three (Click to dl)

Cheers, R.

Four-Three-Three (Click for pic)

[MaVeRiXxX]

----===Don't you just love this game===----