Unstoppable strikers

glamdring · April 8, 2008

I skimmed through the first post of your tactics thread, mostly because I like to do my own tactics, however bad they are, so don't want to take too many details from others.

Would you say those player instructions make sense from a real world football perspective or where they developed specifically through observing what happens with different instructions in FM? I ask only because I always want to develop my tactics based on my knowledge of real football and what I think seems realistic, even though my knowledge is sketchy in some areas.

Clearly there is something wrong with aspects of the match engine for you to have players with stats like that...looks like your save game would be very useful to SI for improving their match engine to see exactly what is happening and how to stop it (or tune it down rather).

To me some of your tactical instructions seem counter-intuitive from a footballing perspective, which may just be because I am not a great football expert or may be just because they are instructions that work well with the match engine rather than in real life. For me a winger should pelt down the touchline and whip crosses in from well down the pitch. Playing through balls should be an irrelevance because there should rarely be anyone directly ahead of them down the wing anyway.

That's is not a criticism of you by the way - you've clearly put a lotof time into looking at your tactics, but you have to admit that your results highlight clear flaws in aspects of the match engine. The Northern Irish league may be easy, but no-one scores that many goals in real life and nor will they ever!

NepentheZ · April 8, 2008

glamdring -

thanks for your post.

you've hit the nail on the head with regards to my tactics fitting around the FM match engine. they 100% do that. Some of it reflects real life, and some of it doesn't. The through balls though, don't only have to be played directly in front of a player. (Have you never played Pro Evo ) . The reason I placed so much emphasis on the through balls, the placing of the passes and the creativity slider of the wide men, is because it was the only way that I found, that would make the wingers do what I asked. If I just put on "cross to far post", or "cross from deep" or a whole range of "realistic" options to have them do as asked, they never did. so I watched a few matches in full detail, and edited the tactics per player, per match for about 15 matches, and thats the tactic I came up with. so yes, I created the tactic based purely on the match engine.

A lot of people, especially in the T&T forum, complained that 8.0.2 had an adverse effect on tactics that worked supreme for 8.0.1 and previous. I personally didn't have this problem, and have used the same tactic for nearly 20 seasons, only changing the odd thing here or there when new players become first choice.

once a season I'll watch a full match, and change a few of the balance sliders too. (Attacking slider, defensive line etc.).

Again though, I do agree that the results I'm getting are completely stupid, but in retrospect, you have to look at the facts about the league.

Every game I play, with regards to the Glentoran and Linfield, is like Man Utd playing Altrincham every game of the season. In my eyes, they would get those results season after season, If the oppo had no way of improving. The only two games that cause my any kind of grief, (Glentoran / Linfield) is still a walkover, and like Man Utd playing Crystal Palace a few times amoung the other games.

isuckatfm · April 8, 2008

I think the key point here has been overlooked by people stating what the players they manage are doing. From what he has posted I assume Mike7077 is managing Man Utd and an AI managed Adebayor has a 21 in 13 record and an AI managed Drogba has 18 in 12. If this pattern is being seen by other gamers then it might be an issue (can't comment on those two players as I am in the Championship and set the Premiership to no detail to keep my laptop from grinding to a halt). If this is not just a coincidence of his game and is a pattern then it does in my opinion point to an issue since what SI have often stated is that their match engine testing is focused on the AI world.

So if you have the Premiership running on full detail have a look at these two players goal scoring record when managed by AI teams to see if it is an issue or just an anomaly with Mike7077's game.

In the league I am in (full detail) it does appear to be an issue. I'm in the Championship and with most teams having played 36/37 matches the top ten goalscorers look like this (all strikers):-

Appearances/Goals

1. 37/36

2. 37/33

3. 33/30

4. 36/30

5. 37/29

6. 30(5)/27

7. 37/26

8. 33/24

9. 37/24

10. 31/22

In the previous seasons when the league was on no detail level the top scorers had these records:-

2007/2008: 39/27

2008/2009: 42/23

2009/2010: 45/26

2010/2011: 45/23

2011/2012: 42/24

Looking at those numbers it does look like an issue to me, particularly with the difference between the top scorers when I wasn't in the league (detail level noe) and the current list now I am in it (full detail).

Real Life (http://www.football-league.premiumtv.co.uk/page/DivisionalScorers/0,,10794~20027,00.html):-

2002/2003: 25

2003/2004: 27

2004/2005: 24

2005/2006: 21

2006/2007: 23

2007/2008: 20 (after 40 to 42 matches)

You can see the no detail statistics look more realistic than my current season where with 9/10 matches left the top six goalscorers have already surpassed the previous highest scorer in game of 27 (and the real life counterpart for the last 6 seasons of 27 also).

Also to back this up further some more statistics:-

Coca Cola League One Top scorer (year and goals):-

2007/2008: 24

2008/2009: 27

2009/2010: 24

2010/2011: 27

2011/2012: 38

Coca Cola League 2 Top Scorer (year and goals):-

2007/2008: 25

2008/2009: 26

2009/2010: 25

2010/2011: 38

2011/2012: 24

Blue Square Premier Top Scorer (year and goals):-

2007/2008: 27

2008/2009: 44

2009/2010: 43

2010/2011: 22

2011/2012: 24

In all of those lists the numbers that jump beyond the norm is when I was managing in the league and the detail level was full. The pattern is pretty clear to me in that 'none' detail makes for more realistic statistics than 'full' detail (of course this could just be an anomaly of my game).

Mitja · April 8, 2008

to sum things up here, there are too many goals scored by strikers in active leagues and it seems like that's not the case in non-active. strikers should score less and midfileders should score a little more.

IMO, IRE we rarely witness top goalscorer in a league to score more then 30 goals. 10-15 goals is a exellant record to score in the league for any player, even for some best strikers (think of drogba, rooney, klose, kanoute, totti this year ).

it would be nice if this could be fixed for next FMs.

glamdring · April 8, 2008

Strikers in non-active leagues score a lot too, unless you think 12 goals in 6 games for Darren Bent is a sensible return...and that is just one example, I've seen plenty of others, e.g. I offloaded Arturo Lupoli on the cheap from Fiorentina because I thought he was utterly useless and he's banged in well over a goal a game for Villareal who's league is not active. Obviously I misjudge some players like the next man, but Lupoli really is not that good or anything like it.

As for midfielders scoring more, my central midfielders score plenty, it's just my wingers that don't. I think it would be unrealistic for someone like Diego or Riquelme to score a lot more than 15-20 goals in a season.

Mitja · April 8, 2008

yes of course, that too.

Mike7077 · April 8, 2008

What do we think the chances are that this will be sorted in FM09? Five, maybe ten percent?

Mitja · April 8, 2008

10% is just too optimistic.

glamdring · April 8, 2008

The chances are 100% that the match engine will evolve. In doing so though it generally fixes some problems and introduces others. I think there are so many variables contributing to the match engine now that it is impossible to get it properly balanced in all situations - a slight tweak in one place will probably cause a massive inbalance elsewhere.

Probably some of the things mentioned here will get toned down...I'd put money on corners being almost totally useless in the next version like thay have been in one or two previous versions which came immediately after a version in which they were too strong.

I would just love to see a simplification of things so that intuitive real life tactics make sense in the game so that you don't have to work on tactics that make no sense at all in real life, but do "beat the match engine".

e.g. the idea that a winger should play Gung Ho mentality, yet never run with the ball, play through balls regularly, but always try to cross from deep and show no creative freedom whatsoever is really not what I want to have to do in order to have a winger who will deliver deadly crosses from time to time.

GazTheDoood · April 8, 2008

I tend to find my own strikers have excellent goalscoring records when playing up-front alone with two supporting wingers playing AML/R.

This is playing top league, with quite attacking mentality.

Formation is 4-3-2-1.

mlp071 · April 8, 2008

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GazTheDoood:

I tend to find my own strikers have excellent goalscoring records when playing up-front alone with two supporting wingers playing AML/R.

This is playing top league, with quite attacking mentality.

Formation is 4-3-2-1. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

At present time AI cannot cope with single striker attacking thru the middle.

It renders fullbacks useless, so AI ends up defending with only 2 CD's, hence 3 attackers against 2 DC's = your advantage.

Thats one of the sour points in 08 right now.

jimlad1000 · April 8, 2008

On my liverpool save, Yakubu had 3 average seasons then in the 4th season he bagged 37 in 30 league games and scores similar in the 5th season.

Ter · April 9, 2008

Normal service is resumed

backpackant · April 9, 2008

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jimlad1000:

On my liverpool save, Yakubu had 3 average seasons then in the 4th season he bagged 37 in 30 league games and scores similar in the 5th season. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

He probably turned to Nandrolone.

Mitja · April 9, 2008

nice one Ter, thanks.

NepentheZ · April 9, 2008

Thanks Ter

nelsonmcjones · April 9, 2008

Ask and you shall receive! Good 'ole S.I. listening to the unwashed multitude! It's service like this that make this forum one of the best around.

Hey NepentheZ; looks like your tactics finally worked. LOL

LSS · April 9, 2008

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mike7077:

I watch them blast the ball at the nearest opposition man or just allow it to bounce off themselves, and yet they usually come out with a 7 or 8 and occasionally a 9. I guess you could say I'm a little bit stumped on this one. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The rating system is VERY generous on wingers. They seem to get a rating of 7 even before they do anything with the ball.

See this thread on the bugs forum and feel free to post your examples.

Mitja · April 9, 2008

lol, wingers are my favourites, recently.

what do you guys think of wingers? their movement, coming into chances, their ability to put a decent cross (what), their overall usefulness? am I imagining things?

I only take answers seriously by those who play standard formations

earmack · April 9, 2008

I've started playing 4-4-1-1 (Farrows on the wingers), in 37 (league and cups) games my wingers (4 of them rotated due mainly to injuries) have contributed 16 assists and 5 goals (none from corners or free kicks), my attacking mid (no farrow) has scored 11 goals and has 10 assists, my striker has 12 goals and 3 assists.

I'm Barnet, 2010/11 season, currently 1st in League 1. I find that now I've worked a bit on my tactics (didn't play 4-4-1-1 untill the very end of the last season) my wingers are bombing on and putting in some excellent crosses.

JOEBOY · April 9, 2008

Cesar Delgado banged close to 70 goals in 52 games for my Rangers team. Amazing striker

Cheers

JOEBOY

glamdring · April 10, 2008

To be honest, my wingers are neither performing well nor receiving good ratings. I've criticised James McFadden in the media twice already this season for poor performance.

I've already posted opinions on wingers from what I have seen, but in a nutshell: with instructions that I consider to be realistic for a winger playing real football I find my wingers at Werder Bremen very rarely manage to get down the touchline and whip in a cross without either losing the ball or hitting the first defender with the cross. Now obviously, some would say that is preferable to getting a cross in given the "corner bug", but I would far rather see a cross than a corner.

Strangely though I use exactly the same formation (GK, DL-DC-DC-DR, DMC or MC, ML, MR, AMC, AMC, SC) at Fiorentina and there my wingers are far more successful at getting crosses in. Sure they are different players with different skills, but my Bremen wingers should be able to cross a ball with the instructions they have.

Spongebobsex · April 10, 2008

That is possible in real life. Hat-tricks in a few games soon adds up.

Henri Saivet scores at least 40+ goals each season with me and only plays 32. A few hat-tricks.

JOEBOY · April 26, 2008

Yoann Gouffran. He kicked 29 goals in 30 games for my Salzburg team. Costs around 4 million but worth it.

Cheers

JOEBOY

Alurny · April 27, 2008

You know this happened because of the complaints of too many chances missed in 8.01, right?

DJDiesel · April 27, 2008

This may be slightly due to the fact that he's playing in a low division but in my game in charge of Hucknall, who are in the BSN, Ashley Chambers has scored 46 goals in 34 games.

His career league stats are 45 in 43.

DJDiesel · April 27, 2008

Sorry for double post, but for anyone who wants to know, Chambers is in the Leicester reserves.

May 25, 2008

NepentheZ's results illustrate a big problem

The big problem is not the number of assists achieved by Strain who despite not being the world's greatest winger is far too good for the division and Smylie, who in Northern Ireland is like Ronaldo in the Sunday League.

The big problem is that the winning formula to make unstoppable wingers out of those who are quite talented for the level they're playing at appears to be restricting their creativity and telling them to do exactly the same thing every time.

From which two conclusions can be drawn:

i) average wingers' default intelligence generally leads to poor decisions

ii) fullbacks are incapable of defending against entirely predictable wingers; their successes are largely the result of bad decisions made by wingers that have creative freedom.

All this makes me nostalgic for the days of properly balanced 4-4-2s in FMO7

on the long throws issue... I'm thinking that a distribution of long throws that looks like this:

18 x 1

17 x 1

16 x 3

15 x 1

14 x 1

13 x 1

12 x 1

11 x 4

<10 x 15.

is unlikely in any division, unless they've hired Dave Challinor on the coaching staff.

In NI I'd expect it to look like this

13+ x 1 (maybe)

10+ x 1

<8 x 20

Distribution of long throws is one of those issues that, like DCs with the ability to take corners (despite not having any crossing or freekick ability) just baffles you because compared with the complexities involved in producing a remotely satisfactory football simulation is ridiculously simple to solve

George Graham · May 25, 2008

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mike7077:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NepentheZ:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NepentheZ:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

of course you're not alone on this. this issue is just repeating year after year. and yes wingers are more or less useless, the only thing they're good at is conceeding corners. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have to completely disagree here. While the Strikers scoring too many goals is clearly an issue, Wingers are not useless. You need to learn how to use the wingers, so that they can provide assist after assist for you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

that's what many people say these days. and then after I see how they set them, it's more or less same like I do. guys who are mentioning how good wingers play, but nobody puts any screenshot to back it up. if they do mostly they play some weird looking formation which is nothing more then ME exploit. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Screen shot to "back it up"...

And, whats an "ME Exploit" (Never heard or seen of the term before) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Match Engine exploit. Means you're exploiting a weakness or fault in the match engine. Although that's an assumption because I'm not familiar with the term either! And it should also be pointed out that if he's calling for those claiming that wingers do work to post screenshots, then he should ask the same of those of us, like me, who feel that they don't.

What I will say is that I feel that I have very talented wingers who play as if they have leprosy. The just bounces off them and they are unable to beat a man or cross a ball. I'm talking about the likes of Cristiano Ronaldo, Ryan Giggs and Nani. These players are talented enough to be able to do the basics of a winger's game regardless of what my tactics and settings might be. Not that I believe my tactics or settings are responsible for this issue I'm having. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its your tactics.

Seriously- its why FM is screwed, in that if you dont set your players up "right" then its quite possible to make the best players not perform.

Imagine irl a world class player being totally inept because he's been told the "wrong" thing- it wouldnt happen as world class players will tend to perform.

SI really need to go back to the drawing board with the ME, and in particular why tactics are much more important than player ability.

Realism? Not in this mess of a game.

George Graham · May 25, 2008