4-2-3-1 Super_Defense

[red rainbow]

Well, Elhan, here is a report from "hell" (8th Div.)....

Nothing to add, sure we are talking about a very solid tactic (V2 for me), the only problem was the beginning, due to poor gelling as I had to buy a lot of players, so I wasn't worried about that.... The most important thing is that I can "see" a very fluid way to play, even against stronger teams, so we can win or lose (very very seldom, as you can see.... ) but my team "plays" every match as I order to.....

Thanks a lot, mate.....

[Ron_Burgundy]

Elhan,

I had to show you this. My first game with your tactic was home to Chelsea.

As you can see, we played brilliantly. Except for one of my CB's!! Gutted but encouraged at the same time....

[Elhan]

I sympathise, your statistics look great but you were really unlucky. Stuff like that happens from time to time, and especially at the start of a season, with new signings etc. A pity you don't have someone really great in the air, could have done better with those 11 corners.

[Dust_]

Elhan,

I had to show you this. My first game with your tactic was home to Chelsea.

As you can see, we played brilliantly. Except for one of my CB's!! Gutted but encouraged at the same time....

TALK ABOUT BAD LUCK MATE :S I feel your pain!

[Zeffke888]

Hi Ehlan,

v1 is still doing well in my PSV Eindhoven savegame. I was just wondering if you could mention the player roles of the players in v1 since it's a classic tactic. Don't have to be 100% correct but just to have an idea of it...

for example: DMCL anchor man (defensive), etc...

Thanks in advance

[Elhan]

Hi Ehlan,

v1 is still doing well in my PSV Eindhoven savegame. I was just wondering if you could mention the player roles of the players in v1 since it's a classic tactic. Don't have to be 100% correct but just to have an idea of it...

for example: DMCL anchor man (defensive), etc...

Thanks in advance

GK - standard GK

DL - wing back/attack

DCl - DC/cover

DCr - DC/stopper

DR - Fullback/defend

DMl - anchor man

DMr - DM/support

AML/R - inside forward/attack

AMC - attacking midfielder/attack

ST - complete forward/support

Check out the "Players You Need" part of the original post as well.

[Ron_Burgundy]

Hi Elhan,

The tactic was doing quite well for me and we recorded a few excellent wins but unfortunately (and as you predicted) there were a few tough losses too. Including a 4-1 loss at Villa (who are currently 18th) and a 2-0 loss at West Ham.

I'm not complaining as you did warn me it would take time to bed in. Unfortunately, the board didn't see it that way and I have now been dumped out of the Emirates. We are 5th and only 6 points off the top but that obviously wasn't enough! Thanks very much for your tactic but I will have to start again and go my own way now. I genuinely think there is something in the game which penalises you for not using your own tactics...

You had an amazing season but I will start a new save and build my own tactic. As I'm sure you agree, it does make the game more rewarding when you get it right and it also helps you to fix things when they are going wrong...

Cheers again! Just wanted to give you some feedback...

[mantorras77]

Hey Elhan.....tactic working fantastic! Great job! Got a quesiton for you...what training do you use?

[Preveza]

Hey Elhan

Working on the 11.2 patch?

[tMBt78]

For me there is no need at the moment. After installing 11.2 patch im still playing well and winning as my last season. I cannot see any particulard differences ...

Great work Elhan !

[Elhan]

@Ron_Burgundy

Sorry to hear that mate, stuff like that can happen, like I said it takes about half a season for your team to start playing well if you make a considerable amount of signigs in the summer. I do agree that making your own tactics is more enjoyable, for me it is the main thing that I find interesting about FM. That doesn't mean you have to reinvent the wheel every time, there are plenty of tactics on this forum to draw inspiration and ideas from. For me at least that is the whole point of releasing tactics - sharing these ideas with the community.

@Mantorras77

I don't use any specific trainings, I use a slightly modified version of a FM '10 training, I can't even remember wich one. In truth I was so focused on the tactic itself that I didn't bother testing the various training schedules for FM 11.

@Preveza

My initial goal was to release a new version for the new patch yes, but honestly after all this time I haven't found something that would significantly improve the original version. I might just adjust the V1 for the new patch or make a different tactic with a different formation altogether, I haven't made up my mind yet.

[jokey]

hi elhan your tactic is awesome.in my 1st season as afc telford in the blue square north i romped the league and won fa trophy.2nd season on course to win league again easily.also humped derby county 3-1 away before losing to middlesbro 2-1 in fa cup.was just wondering what your thoughts were in updating patch as i am still on 11.1.i dint usually update til starting a new game with new tactic as i find your current tactic never seems to work the same.i am using version 1 and if struggling change to version 2.the number of times i have been down 1 or 2 nil and came back to win is quite incredible

[Elhan]

hi elhan your tactic is awesome.in my 1st season as afc telford in the blue square north i romped the league and won fa trophy.2nd season on course to win league again easily.also humped derby county 3-1 away before losing to middlesbro 2-1 in fa cup.was just wondering what your thoughts were in updating patch as i am still on 11.1.i dint usually update til starting a new game with new tactic as i find your current tactic never seems to work the same.i am using version 1 and if struggling change to version 2.the number of times i have been down 1 or 2 nil and came back to win is quite incredible

Unfortunatelly, untill all this christmas/holidays nonsense blows over I have very little time to test the new match engine changes or try to make a new version. Others have been saying the tactic works just as well as it did in 11.1, but I haven't had enough time to confirm that. Sorry I could not help more.

[JackDavies]

Thoroughly enjoyed using this tactic on my latest campaign with Blackpool (using patch 11.2). Have used the original version the whole season with no changes, and am currently sat in April in a very credible 11th place. Similar to others, tha team took time to get use to the style of play, and for the first 8 games or so were relatively poor. With no signings though, i have go on to pick up a double againt Liverpool, as well as wins at Old Trafford and Stamford Bridge in the league. This has been incredibly enjoyable, congratulation and thankyou to the creator of the tactic

[lloydy13]

hey elhan. thanks for an excellent base to work from as this is a really sound tactic that I have enjoyed tinkering with. I am using this with leeds and have really enjoyed the attacking interchanges and the creativity of the front four. I have had a really difficult time with the cover DC and the stopper fullback. Both spots have been a turnstile for me with various options tried with minimal success. The result has been very few clean sheets and a regular leaking of goals - often of the comedy variety. has been super frustrating as the tactic is working really well but mismatched or just plain rubbish personnel have meant i'm not where I should be in the league (I'm 8th after 22 games - not terrible but not great).

I am finding it really difficult to find someone to fit that cover DC role who is attainable at div1 level - big, strong in the air plodding DC's are everywhere but can't find an affordable pacy, tactically aware, positionally sound DC's are nowhere to be found at this level. anyway enough of my whingeing - thanks for the quality tactic.

[Elhan]

Unfotunatelly I haven't had the time to play with a div1 level much so I can't realy recommend someone. If the requirements for the cover DC seem excesive for your level forget about speed and just invest in someone with good mentals that won't make silly mistakes to often.

[Bubblegumbo]

This is by far one of the best tactics I've ever used over the course of many seasons. I can always trust it when I use it against big name sides playing away

[Corkey]

Elhan, very encouraged by your progress, and I am intrested in using your tactic for my new save. I love Classic tactics and also having a tatic so defensivly sound! I've been testing with WIgan, no Transfers. Very Mixed thus far, but have been Holidaying in all fairness. When do you think you will gte the chance to update thet atcic on the new ME? before new year? Looks great and very encouraged. Reminds me of Mourinho at Inter

[Elhan]

Not sure to be honest, the holidays are always a very busy time of the year for me. I wouldn't really recommend holidaying to be honest as this tactic requires some level of preparation and tinkering before each match to truly shine (check the Stuff You Must Do section in the original post).

[Corkey]

Not sure to be honest, the holidays are always a very busy time of the year for me. I wouldn't really recommend holidaying to be honest as this tactic requires some level of preparation and tinkering before each match to truly shine (check the Stuff You Must Do section in the original post).

I wasn't knocking the tactic at all, Infact I was praising it... I admitted I was holidaying, and therefore wasnt getting the best out of it?

But anayway, In a match against Tottenham, playing Away. I did all but Man Mark there fullbacks.. Which I was a definate downfull. We lost 0-3, but was actually a good resutl as they should fo scored more. I would also liek to ask when you talk about the 'Show Onto Weaker Foot' option. So do you mean, when agianst a Winger, I should show onto opposite Foot? (ie. Showing a Right Winger onto his left, therefore forcing him to cut inside?) or do you mean, Select the 'Show Onto Weaker Foot' exactly. Just that I did this against Tottenham, and Van Der Vaart deaosnt have a Weak Foot, and therefore cutting in constantly and threading through balls and shots....

Anway, I am Journeyman type player, and therefore I would liek to sue this. It have my style of play I like So I need to be assured it is the best it can be before I start...

Also note, Victor Moses is my Striker, therefore not a 'Complete Forward'.... But is playing okay...

[Elhan]

Van der Vaart is a peculiar type of winger, in fact he really isn't a winger at all although he is played there sometimes. Showing him on the wrong foot won't do much good like you mentioned, since he is just as good with both feet. Setting OIs to always tight mark him however is a good idea since he is really slow. Generally, for wingers that can use both their feet equally wel,l showing them on the "weaker" foot doesn't make much of a difference. So either don't apply any OI concerning showing them on a particular foot, or set it so you "force" them to cut inside. Crosses are, in my opinion, more dangerous, especially considering you have two DMs to cover the middle of the pitch.

[Corkey]

Van der Vaart is a peculiar type of winger, in fact he really isn't a winger at all although he is played there sometimes. Showing him on the wrong foot won't do much good like you mentioned, since he is just as good with both feet. Setting OIs to always tight mark him however is a good idea since he is really slow. Generally, for wingers that can use both their feet equally wel,l showing them on the "weaker" foot doesn't make much of a difference. So either don't apply any OI concerning showing them on a particular foot, or set it so you "force" them to cut inside. Crosses are, in my opinion, more dangerous, especially considering you have two DMs to cover the middle of the pitch.

Okay then, so are you will you be working hard on the new version, as I feel this tactic isnt as effective on the new patch in all honestly...

[JackDavies]

Okay then, so are you will you be working hard on the new version, as I feel this tactic isnt as effective on the new patch in all honestly...

Firstly your wrong, im enjoying great success with Blackpool on the new patch.

Secondly, your a whinging git. Work hard on your own tactic

[Corkey]

Firstly your wrong, im enjoying great success with Blackpool on the new patch.

Secondly, your a whinging git. Work hard on your own tactic

Wow Wow... I haven't done any whining at all. Elhan said he was going to start testing it on the new patch, so was just asking when? Please explain how this is whining like a git? haha

[JackDavies]

okay then, so are you will you be working hard on the new version, as i feel this tactic isnt as effective on the new patch in all honestly...

= whinge.......

[Corkey]

= whinge.......

Ow, well you didn't say that. Hmm Intresting, wasn't whinging either to be honest... Just asking him questions... Anyway, how are you doing with Blackpool? Especially, how did you do in your first season?

[dave byrd]

Brand new game on patch 11.2.1 using v1 of this tactic home and away with no tweaks as Gateshead in the Blue Square Premier League.

Media prediction: 17th

Final position: 2nd (promoted via the play offs)

FA Trophy winners

Most goals scored

5th best defence

League Table:

Team:

Play off Final:

FA Trophy Final:

I cannot stress enough how good this tactic is. Gateshead were predicted 17th and had an awful squad, so to finish second and win in the play offs was an amazing achievement. My AMC was the divisions top scorer with 29 and as a team we scored 103 league goals, 19 of which were corners, so that routine working well too! Winning the FA Trophy at Wembley was the icing on the cake.

Thanks Elhan.

[Corkey]

Brand new game on patch 11.2.1 using v1 of this tactic home and away with no tweaks as Gateshead in the Blue Square Premier League.

Media prediction: 17th

Final position: 2nd (promoted via the play offs)

FA Trophy winners

Most goals scored

5th best defence

League Table:

Team:

Play off Final:

I cannot stress enough how good this tactic is. Gateshead were predicted 17th and had an awful squad, so to finish second and win in the play offs was an amazing achievement. My AMC was the divisions top scorer with 29 and as a team we scored 103 league goals, 19 of which were corners, so that routine working well too! Winning the FA Trophy at Wembley was the icing on the cake.

Thanks Elhan.

Have you tried V2? if so is V1 better?

[dave byrd]

Have you tried V2? if so is V1 better?

Didn't try v2 so couldn't tell you.

[mhmtrm]

Hey elhan, i'm a fan of 4-2-3-1 tactic myself too so your tactic is one of the few i try from the forums. i usually start playing with 2nd division teams and try to do my own tactics. when i saw 4-2-3-1 at the title i wanted to give it a shot. your tactic is one of the most stable tactic i ever encountered with. i learned a lot, enjoyed a lot and i want to thank a lot for sharing. i haven't noticed any problems with new patch. only tweak i made was to change through ball slider of the more defensive DM's to often as my player has good passing skills too. i'm starting a new game with arsenal now and will post some screenshots later. thanks again and merry christmas.

[Corkey]

Ben using this tactic with AS Saint-Eitienne in France. Initially I was impressed, didn't concede a single goal in any of my friendlies. First match we beat PSG away from home, which for us was great . I continued to gain good results, being unbeaten for another 3 games. Then we faced keague leaders Toulose away from home. It ended 1-2 to them. This was a result which was understandble, we had high confidence, but so did they, but the manner in which we lost was not good. We were dominated. I only had 5 shots to their 15... Anyway, we then a cup game which we scaped through. Then went away to Lyon, which ended in them stuffing us 0-5. This was very annoying, and my fans were devasted due to it being a rival match. We then straight after, faced Marseille, the Champions, at Home. We lost 1-2. Weplayed a bit better, only thanks to a very team talk at half time. The game after, we drew to a side we really should be beating.

So I have lost a lot of confidence in this tactic. I find the defensive shape very good, however the opposition manage a lot of long shots, to which they do score a lot more than you think... Which is very fristrating. Possesion wise it's great, the shape of the attack is really nice to watch, reminds me of Arsenal Also the counter-attack are very effective and well thought out. So at the momment I don't think i'll be using this, it's a great tactic, yet isn;t for me

Thanks a lot Elhan, I have enjoyed using this tactic

[mantorras77]

Ben using this tactic with AS Saint-Eitienne in France. Initially I was impressed, didn't concede a single goal in any of my friendlies. First match we beat PSG away from home, which for us was great . I continued to gain good results, being unbeaten for another 3 games. Then we faced keague leaders Toulose away from home. It ended 1-2 to them. This was a result which was understandble, we had high confidence, but so did they, but the manner in which we lost was not good. We were dominated. I only had 5 shots to their 15... Anyway, we then a cup game which we scaped through. Then went away to Lyon, which ended in them stuffing us 0-5. This was very annoying, and my fans were devasted due to it being a rival match. We then straight after, faced Marseille, the Champions, at Home. We lost 1-2. Weplayed a bit better, only thanks to a very team talk at half time. The game after, we drew to a side we really should be beating.

So I have lost a lot of confidence in this tactic. I find the defensive shape very good, however the opposition manage a lot of long shots, to which they do score a lot more than you think... Which is very fristrating. Possesion wise it's great, the shape of the attack is really nice to watch, reminds me of Arsenal Also the counter-attack are very effective and well thought out. So at the momment I don't think i'll be using this, it's a great tactic, yet isn;t for me

Thanks a lot Elhan, I have enjoyed using this tactic

You need to make sure you re-read the OP and make sure you're following everything to a "T"....One thing I noticed is that it does take a while for the team to gel to this tactic....and one more VERY important thing, no tactic works unless you have the right players to make it work.

[Corkey]

You need to make sure you re-read the OP and make sure you're following everything to a "T"....One thing I noticed is that it does take a while for the team to gel to this tactic....and one more VERY important thing, no tactic works unless you have the right players to make it work.

Yeah, I understand, I dont have great players Again, not knocking the tactic.... I'm willing to stick with it, but what do you mean by what ive bolded?

[albanie.]

I actually found this worked much better when I switched between version one and version two of this tactic. I found when I was playing a weaker team, our defensive strategies canceled each other out, so for these matches I switched to version two. My form was very patchy up until this point, but from there I did very, very well.

But you must listen to all the advice given about players etcetera in the opening post. If you don't follow that, you will fail.

[Corkey]

I actually found this worked much better when I switched between version one and version two of this tactic. I found when I was playing a weaker team, our defensive strategies canceled each other out, so for these matches I switched to version two. My form was very patchy up until this point, but from there I did very, very well.

But you must listen to all the advice given about players etcetera in the opening post. If you don't follow that, you will fail.

So V1 for tough games

V2 for easy games

Is a rough guidline you follow?

[Elhan]

More or less, yes. V2 is there mostly to give you an extra option and prevent your team from becoming too predictable, and for extreme weather conditions. V1 is still the most stable all around.

[Corkey]

More or less, yes. V2 is there mostly to give you an extra option and prevent your team from becoming too predictable, and for extreme weather conditions. V1 is still the most stable all around.

Okay thanks Elhan

If i may ask, could you release a version with a Attacking RB and a Defensive LB of V1? as my team suits that more... I would do it myself, but it won't save probaley and ends up making my tactics screw up!

[Corkey]

Tactic has suddenly stopped for me.

Was going great, and top of the league with Saint Etienne, then suundely havnt won a game in 6? It's weird, as nothing has changed, maybe it's been cracked by the AI?

[Elhan]

Quite possibly, try changing to V2 or another tactic altogether for a while and see how it goes.

[Corkey]

Quite possibly, try changing to V2 or another tactic altogether for a while and see how it goes.

I really like this tactic though I'm doing well enough in most matches, just my strikers havn't been scoring... 4 losses in a row...

You said you have to change tactics so that the AI don't combat you...

[Elhan]

In FM '11 you will definately experience a dip in form sooner or later, no matter what tactic you are using. It's not so much that the AI does something essentially different, you just stop scoring and your defenders and keeper start making childish mistakes. In my experience, the best way to overcome this is either to be proactive and not use the same tactic for too many matches, or change the tactic when you sense a loss of form, before you hit a bad loosing streak. Loosing too many games will get your team in a really bad position, morale will fall and things will be hard to turn around, so be bold and make drastic changes as soon as possible.

[Corkey]

In FM '11 you will definately experience a dip in form sooner or later, no matter what tactic you are using. It's not so much that the AI does something essentially different, you just stop scoring and your defenders and keeper start making childish mistakes. In my experience, the best way to overcome this is either to be proactive and not use the same tactic for too many matches, or change the tactic when you sense a loss of form, before you hit a bad loosing streak. Loosing too many games will get your team in a really bad position, morale will fall and things will be hard to turn around, so be bold and make drastic changes as soon as possible.

Okay are you saying that on match preparation, I should have V1 and V2 bein learnt. Then use V1 in hard matches, and V2 is easier ones? As probaley way to combat the problem you speak of?

[Elhan]

Definately. I've mentioned before that's the main reason for having V2 at all, since V1 is generally more stable and overall reliable.

[Corkey]

Definately. I've mentioned before that's the main reason for having V2 at all, since V1 is generally more stable and overall reliable.

Okay I'll try this. Just signed the Porto, Rodirguez for £1M, which is good, adds spice to my attacking 4

Yet I'm not confident in the OIs you reccomend... I really think an OI is need on a the opposing strikers? Do you think the tactic is wothout need to counter Strikers?

[Elhan]

The only OI that might ocassionaly be useful is showing them on their weaker foot, and only if they have a very weak foot. It won't make a huge difference however most of the time. Closing down at all times is a recipe for disaster as it will drag your DCs out of position, and tight marking is completely uneeded, since your DCs and DMs are already set to tight marking.

[Corkey]

The only OI that might ocassionaly be useful is showing them on their weaker foot, and only if they have a very weak foot. It won't make a huge difference however most of the time. Closing down at all times is a recipe for disaster as it will drag your DCs out of position, and tight marking is completely uneeded, since your DCs and DMs are already set to tight marking.

Okay then, lastly, for OIs on Wingers, I use "Close Down Always" and show onto 'opposite foot', ie. Right Winger onto his left foot, forcing him to cut inside.....

[Corkey]

Would you say that V2 is more attacking?

[joop07]

Elhan

Great tactic, having lots of success with Swansea. Was pretty good before christmas and am currently on 28 game unbeaten run. Thank you.

Scott Sinclair has been brilliant in the winger role, however im after some clarification on the inverted winger role?! Scott Sinclair is right footed but his preferred position is Left Wing do I play him on the left or right?

What about a player who is either footed?

Many thanks for your tactic, hope you have time to reply

[Elhan]

Elhan

Great tactic, having lots of success with Swansea. Was pretty good before christmas and am currently on 28 game unbeaten run. Thank you.

Scott Sinclair has been brilliant in the winger role, however im after some clarification on the inverted winger role?! Scott Sinclair is right footed but his preferred position is Left Wing do I play him on the left or right?

What about a player who is either footed?

Many thanks for your tactic, hope you have time to reply

Left footed wingers should be played on the right side, and right footed on the left. Players who are good with both feet, play them wherever you like (generaly having players that can use both their feet to some degree is a good idea).

[Corkey]

Started well.....

http://img403.imageshack.us/i/89675135.png/

The suddenly went downhill...

http://img705.imageshack.us/i/83723790.png/

Sorry, but I'm going to stop using it. I tried switching between the 2 versions, did all your other factors you suggested, but just didn't cut it.