FM2011 Training Masterclass

[mantralux]

Do you have a method or strategy for finding that?

The only way of finding it would be trial and error, lowering the slider one notch and review after 6 months if the attribute has gone down. If it has, raise the slider one notch and review after 6 months.....etc. Tedious work.

I'm sure some smart mathematician would be able to figure out a formula, if they had access to the inner workings of the game...but until then I think it's a guessing game.

[jim morrow]

If I understand what NAks and Teutomatos said and my own experience, yes you're right...Training levels graphs are like a training report, like a coach who notes players for each workshop...As the load for the workshop is the same in your linear schedule, if graph are not on the same level you can easily understand that your GK is performing well in GKss workshop but not very well in Ball category...(but don't forget that for having concrete graph you need player with 100% match exercise and at least two months of training).

So after having this report, you just need to copy/paste the position of the graph to your schedule sliders......

[mantralux]

The question is if it really works like that or not.

I've asked Riz about it, still no answer.

[mantralux]

My initial impression of the training graph was that the bars actually indicate how well the training score measured up to the counter score.

Explanation:

As stated in the OP, a training score is calculated based on workloads and coach quality. This is score A. Another score is then calculated, based on hidden attributes, current attribute levels, level of training facilities, fitness, morale, etc. This is score B.

Now those scores are measured against each other to decide if training is a success or not, and if so at what rate (speed).

Based on that, my theory is that the training graph levels are showing you how score A measured up to score B - how successful the current training schedule is for that particular player. If a bar is high, the training score (A) has been very successful against score B, meaning the player has the best chance of increasing the attributes in the category with the highest bar.

Based on how the training module works, I'd say that is the most logical explanation of how the graph works.

[Simply... Awesome!]

Very very nice thread here...

@mantralux #1

If you have a 5-star coach and a 1-star coach training the same category, the training won’t be affected by the low level coach. The rating is all that matters, it’s the overall indicator of how well the category is being trained. Therefor, it’s safe to sign high level coaches for all 9 categories, and then use low level (cheap) coaches to fill out the category workloads to ‘light’.

I have always wanted an answer to this question. Thanks.

Looking at the pictures provided in posts #22 and #56 Manuel Almunia is "Content with his training schedule".

On other players I have seen "Pleased" or "Unhappy" or "Happy".

I believe player happiness in training is best at Pleased, below that Happy, below that Content, then worst at Unhappy.

The key thing is that for the same "Overall Workload" on two different players, one might have a different level of happiness! I believe it doesn't matter if the "Individual Training" on each player is the same or not; what matters is the Overall Workload.

- What affects their Happiness?

- Does their Unhappiness affect morale, effect of training, injury proneness, or something else?

- Does the "Workrate" attribute or hidden "Professional" attribute or some other one play a part?

[mantralux]

Alright, here are my observations on the graph.

If my theory is right, the bars indicates how well a category is trained, based on player happiness, fitness, hidden attributes, current attribute levels, training facilities, etc.

Which means, if ONE bar is very low, it would indicate that either:

1. The workload for the category isn't high enough

and/or

2. One or more of the player's attributes in that category are too high

------------------------------------------->

Here are two examples from my current Atletico Madrid save, the first screenshot shows the training schedule for my central defenders:

And here is one of the player training graphs (a player in that above schedule):

As you can see, the graph bars for Attacking and Shooting are almost at their lowest point, because the workload isn't high enough. Also, the graph bars follows the individual workload sliders perfectly.

Same thing again, this is the training schedule for my wingers:

...followed by a player in that schedule:

Once again, the graph bar for Defending is at its lowest point, because the workload for that category isn't high enough. But in this example, the bars don't follow the individual workload sliders. Attacking and Ball Control are the highest slider settings, but the highest graph bar is the Tactics bar. Why is that?

Well, if we look at the attributes for that player, he has 16 in Passing, Crossing and Creativity - very high values in all the attributes connected to the Attacking category. So the reason his graph bar is low (even though the workload for that category is at the maximum setting) is because there is less room for improvement, since the attributes are already very high - harder to train.

The highest graph bar is the Tactics bar, so if my theory is correct, that category should have the most room for improvement. The player has pretty low attribute values in the Tactics category (13, 12, 14, 14 and 9), so there is definitely room for improvement.

Also, if my theory is correct, the attributes connected to the Tactics category should be the ones with the most room for improvement - IF all training sliders would be on the same notch! - these are the players attributes in all categories:

Strength - 11, 12, 8 and 7 |*average value of 9.5

Aerobic - 14, 16, 14, 8 and 15 |*average value of 13.4

Tactics - 13, 12, 14, 14 and 9 |*average value of 12.4

Ball Control - 16, 14, 17, 16 and 8 |*average value of 14.2

Defending - 8, 9 and 11 |*average value of 9.3

Attacking - 16, 16 and 16 |*average value of 16

Shooting - 12, 15 and 12 |*average value of 13

So according to the average levels, the player would have the most room for improvement in the Defending and Strength categories.

To prove my theory, I would have to put the player on a training schedule where all sliders are at the same level, and then the graph bars SHOULD follow the above averages, from low to high in the following order: Defending, Strength, Tactics, Shooting, Aerobic, Ball Control and lastly Attacking as the highest bar.

It already kinda does this though. Tactics, Aerobics and Ball Control are the highest bars, even though Tactics, Ball Control and Attacking are the highest slider settings in the schedule...but since the average attribute value in the Attacking category is the highest (16), the graph bar is lower - there's not as much room for improvement as in the Tactics category (12.4).

----------------------------------->

To summarise; based on everything above, my theory is that the higher a graph bar is, the bigger the chance for the attributes in that category to increase. I think that's the simplest and most logical explanation.

[mantralux]

And finally, to make it even more simple;

[axl_gold]

Yet another fantastic thread mantralux. Seems like you got the makings to go far as a potential community-based researcher for upcoming FM games!

[Sheffield Sunday]

Wow, what a great thread and a great read. Thanks folks.

I'm already seeing results from this in just one evenings play (about 2 months game time) I've upped the training into the areas I consider key (based on the distribution of attributes) and I've had loads of my players improve.

This is especially evident in my defenders where I placed all on specific composure training - remarkably, even though the match preparedness is now very low and on team blend only, I've increased both concentration and compusure across my first choice back four. Not only this but on the pitch performances have rocketed. Maybe the performances have improved through better tactical choices by myself though - starting to pay more attention to the scouts advice and pre-match screens.

So to sum up. A big thank you to you all.

[Da_Funk]

Personal experience: when bars are like the one in Strength here, ask the player to train better.

[Doctor Who]

Great OP Mantralux.

I kinda like your idea about a Prime schedule to fit your philosophy. I'm currently using a tactical style, which is best carried out, if everybody in the side are skilled in First Touch, Passing and Positioning, but I never thought about making a common schedule with that goal. I'll go and tinker a bit with that now.

[mantralux]

I have another theory as well:

The dotted lines in the training graph might be there just for a visual indication, so it's easier to see the difference between two or more bars. But...maybe there's more to them? Maybe the dotted lines are the actual levels of where the attributes in a category will be increased or decreased?

People have been looking for the 'maintain level' for a long time, maybe that first dotted line is the maintain level. Meaning; if you tweak your training sliders so that ALL bars are either on, or slightly above, that first dotted line...that could mean that all attributes are maintained. They won't increase, but they won't decrease either.

Just a theory though, will have to test it.

[RedBlueEagle]

And finally, to make it even more simple;

So based on your findings here, what would you set the sliders at for training this player?

I understand that there is a bigger chance of improving Tactical attribs and the graph is already high, so should I raise it a click or two to just get it above the line? And using the same logic, reduce defending because he'll be unlikely to improve at all?

[ProZone]

And finally, to make it even more simple;

Right. Fine.

So, returning to my original line of querying NakS's approach (apologies, I don't mean to sound like I'm picking on you my friend), if the chance of increasing a category is low, and you are certain that you want to increase it, you need to add workload to that category.

This is the complete opposite to what was being advised by those who were replicating the graph shape in the slider positions.

Finally, if you want to achieve the best 'overall' improvement you would add workload to all the categories until they reached the maximum level (assuming an ideal case where there was no workload limit of course!).

[mantralux]

So based on your findings here, what would you set the sliders at for training this player?

I understand that there is a bigger chance of improving Tactical attribs and the graph is already high, so should I raise it a click or two to just get it above the line? And using the same logic, reduce defending because he'll be unlikely to improve at all?

The higher the bar is, the more chance the player has of increasing the attributes in that category. In my example, the player already has a high chance of increasing the attributes in the Tactics category, which would mean that you don't need to add more clicks to the slider.

However, the question of whether you should raise it so that the bar goes over the top line is interesting, it all depends on what those dotted lines represents - and we don't know that yet.

[mantralux]

if the chance of increasing a category is low, and you are certain that you want to increase it, you need to add workload to that category.

Finally, if you want to achieve the best 'overall' improvement you would add workload to all the categories until they reached the maximum level (assuming an ideal case where there was no workload limit of course!).

That's the theory, yes. =)

[ProZone]

I have another theory as well:

The dotted lines in the training graph might be there just for a visual indication, so it's easier to see the difference between two or more bars. But...maybe there's more to them? Maybe the dotted lines are the actual levels of where the attributes in a category will be increased or decreased?

People have been looking for the 'maintain level' for a long time, maybe that first dotted line is the maintain level. Meaning; if you tweak your training sliders so that ALL bars are either on, or slightly above, that first dotted line...that could mean that all attributes are maintained. They won't increase, but they won't decrease either.

Just a theory though, will have to test it.

I agree and have often thought this as well.

It must be remembered that attributes will drop with insufficient training and therefore the 'maintain' line or the 'zero increase - zero decrease chance' line is probably going to be about half-way up. Counting the dotted lines from the bottom, I'd hazard a guess to it being between the 2nd and 3rd.

EDIT: I think the sentence I wrote directly above is rubbish! If the graph does display the 'chance of increase' for each category relative to each other then the maintain line will not be stationary!

Which leads me to my current line of thinking...

A much more convenient method for sharing good training schedules would be to post Training Graph shapes for each position. Each FM manager is then required to find the slider positions which re-produce the desired Training Graph shape for his player(s), because those positions will be unique.

[NakS]

Right. Fine.

So, returning to my original line of querying NakS's approach (apologies, I don't mean to sound like I'm picking on you my friend), if the chance of increasing a category is low, and you are certain that you want to increase it, you need to add workload to that category.

This is the complete opposite to what was being advised by those who were replicating the graph shape in the slider positions.

Finally, if you want to achieve the best 'overall' improvement you would add workload to all the categories until they reached the maximum level (assuming an ideal case where there was no workload limit of course!).

No problem mate, we are all trying to find answers here

I think it is pretty well sum up, if you absolutely want to try increase this category and try to "shape" players, then by all means increase the workload on this category. If you want to follow the optimization path, then I would advice spread workloads along graph pattern.

@Mantralux

For what it worth, once I have roughly reproduced the graph pattern on the sliders (the slider corresponding to the highest bar unchanged, the "second" slider a bit less, and so on), I then increase the overal workload while of course making sure the slider pattern remains the same. I "control" this via player fitness mostly, I think the sweet spot of the overal workload is the player start a match around 100% fitness, the day of the game. Then, jadeness, fixture, I try to keep him around 100% fit in decreasing the overall workload, so I have less workload at the end of the season of course. It allows as well to limit injury chances and fully fit he will perform better than 90% fit.

[NakS]

Which leads me to my current line of thinking...

A much more convenient method for sharing good training schedules would be to post Training Graph shapes for each position. Each FM manager is then required to find the slider positions which re-produce the desired Training Graph shape for his player(s), because those positions will be unique.

Exactly, same line here, actually maybe with no download at all as it will require tweaking on a player basis, but a clear, illustrated and well worded explanation. But we first have to figure out and make sure we are on the right track with this.

And, you can mixe positional schedule and individual schedule in the same team, if you only want to focus on a couple of players if you are short of time it is managerial style then, the 2 ways have to be proposed.

[Reventon]

simple question: Are you sure that Creativity can not be influenced by the attacking training category?

I am asking this because if you hover your cursor above the word 'attacking' it says: 'Improves player's creativity, etc.'

Nevermind it is just an inconsistency in your post...

[Miguel Lourinho]

NakS do you any msn contact or any app to chat, because I think I found it

[Teutomatos]

I have another theory as well:

The dotted lines in the training graph might be there just for a visual indication, so it's easier to see the difference between two or more bars. But...maybe there's more to them? Maybe the dotted lines are the actual levels of where the attributes in a category will be increased or decreased?

People have been looking for the 'maintain level' for a long time, maybe that first dotted line is the maintain level. Meaning; if you tweak your training sliders so that ALL bars are either on, or slightly above, that first dotted line...that could mean that all attributes are maintained. They won't increase, but they won't decrease either.

Just a theory though, will have to test it.

Hello miss Mantra Fiat Lux,

It's like a pressure gas in tubes ... a "ratio" of activities. I insist ! A ratio.

To check if the ratio is right, work with the activities arrows. Neutral, could be a maintain level. Red not enough pressure => open (up) a little bit the slider of this worlshop. But !! If you up ...You up the general volum ... And, it could be wrong for recover the condition %. So ! IT's a pity but you can equilibrate with reducing the green arrows...

Strengh and Aerobic get a ratio of 6, technical get a ratio of 2, almost ...

With the jadness, match after match during the season, you decline the general volum, run after the recorvering condition, whenether, it's not a problem, because it means that the players have just until here, fill the tank. And the tank is full. Sometimes somme attributs possibilities are obtain more quicly than some others.

IF ... all arrows fall down in red, suddenly, it's because, the strengh workshop is not enough high. ( except in case of injury ) Strengh worshop is a key, to open for the others.

The speed of progress beetween 2 players, depend of the Ambition hidden attribut. The general volum of training ( so, the graphical in the whole ) depend of professionalism of each one.

If the general volum is too high, the player is not satisfy and said it. Sometimes, in current season, even if his the condition is on top, he could become insatisfy. It's because, his moral professionalism tank is ... full.

About the dotted bar in graphical, my trick is to consider a value of 5 notches beetween them. But don't forget, it's "ratio" ... It just a reference mark, to search the comparison point of view beetween 2 columns, not the real level to report on sliders. Just the differences beetween the column are informative.

[Miguel Lourinho]

About the dotted bar in graphical, my trick is to consider a value of 5 notches beetween them. But don't forget, it's "ratio" ... It just a reference mark, to search the comparison point of view beetween 2 columns, not the real level to report on sliders. Just the differences beetween the column are informative.

Actually that is correct, its 5 notches between the lines in the graphic bars, but that does not correspond to the sliders bar due to player hidden attributes, current stats and workload combination.

[bladfin]

Yes finally fm11 training !!!

[Teutomatos]

Actually that is correct, its 5 notches between the lines in the graphic bars, but that does not correspond to the sliders bar due to player hidden attributes, current stats and workload combination.

Absolutely ! Even 6 notches for the first step But, it's a ratio !! Not a strict correspondence.

Well, RATIO ... CALIBRATION ... Even, we understand that, and its process, we could concede it's not the most simple thing for the "people" in majority. And so actually, the graphical on a page and the sliders on an another ... It becomes crazy and boring to manage ! Riz had conceed the fact, hope they repear it in the next patch. Honestly, i waiting it for beguinning a ... game.

Yes finally fm11 training !!!

Not specialy, it's the same like 2006, i guess ...

[Miguel Lourinho]

Well I have developed a Goalkeeper training and this was the result:

Training: 70%

Match Preparation: 30%

[phnompenhandy]

Miguel - which plug-in gives those green '+1's?

[mantralux]

Training: 70%

Match Preparation: 30%

As soon as the team is fluid with your tactic, lower the match preparation slider to very low. You only need to have the slider up until the tactic is fluid, after that you only need to maintain it. Having it at very low gives you more general training, and your kepper could probably have had +2's instead of +1's. =)

[mantralux]

Miguel - which plug-in gives those green '+1's?

I'm guessing he added them in Photoshop/Gimp/whatever. =)

[Miguel Lourinho]

As soon as the team is fluid with your tactic, lower the match preparation slider to very low. You only need to have the slider up until the tactic is fluid, after that you only need to maintain it. Having it at very low gives you more general training, and your kepper could probably have had +2's instead of +1's. =)

I did not do that , I was just trying to see the efficiency of the schedule

phnompenhandy, +1 were added using photoshop

[Abaka]

I did not do that , I was just trying to see the efficiency of the schedule

phnompenhandy, +1 were added using photoshop

Nice development there.

I've been doing some experimenting with tactics this year and seem to be hitting a brick wall.

Just a quick question, that goalkeeper. How long was he on the scheudle for? Is he playing first team football or is he recieving any tutoring?

I believe getting first team players to develop is half the battle, in my experiments getting young players who arn't near good enough for first team football is the real challenge.

For me this year, I want my young players with a high PA but a low CA to develop in my team!!

[Miguel Lourinho]

Just a quick question, that goalkeeper. How long was he on the scheudle for? Is he playing first team football or is he recieving any tutoring?

He was 4 months on the schedule, playing first team football and no tutoring

[Abaka]

He was 4 months on the schedule, playing first team football and no tutoring

That pretty much matches up with the players I've trained who have space for CA to develop and play first team football.

It;s the players with huge gaps in CA to develop that are cuasing the problem. It leads me to believe that players need to play first team football in order to develop which in turn destroys the point of having an U18 and reserve league. I have players with huge potential at United who cant be put into first team games even as a sub etc.

These u18 games are supposed to bosst thier stats to the point where they shouldn't look out of place in the first team for a 20 minute spell here or there

[PeeKay]

It;s the players with huge gaps in CA to develop that are cuasing the problem. It leads me to believe that players need to play first team football in order to develop which in turn destroys the point of having an U18 and reserve league. I have players with huge potential at United who cant be put into first team games even as a sub etc.

These u18 games are supposed to bosst thier stats to the point where they shouldn't look out of place in the first team for a 20 minute spell here or there

I was under the impression that when players play big games, the gains were more in the Mental stats. The Technical and Physical stats would have only minor gains

[Abaka]

I was under the impression that when players play big games, the gains were more in the Mental stats. The Technical and Physical stats would have only minor gains

Alot of people believe as do I, that CA can't be increased by training, CA can only be increased by match exposure.

Training acts as a way to direct which attirbutes are increased by the newly acquired CA

The problem seems to be that the Reserve and U18 games seem to be nothing more than glorified friendlies. For example I've had Paul Pogba tear up the reserves and U18 leagues, he has an average rating of 7.47 after 21 games and has IIRC 5 moms, 3 goals and 5 assists.

In the last 12 months his CA has increased by 2. This increase is hardly encouraging for a top prospect at a time where his development is at the most important.

Change this with Chris Smalling who has played about 11 first team games and provided an average contribution of 6.78 of 2assts, 1 goal and 0 mom, his CA has increased by 11.

[PeeKay]

Alot of people believe as do I, that CA can't be increased by training, CA can only be increased by match exposure.

Training acts as a way to direct which attirbutes are increased by the newly acquired CA

The problem seems to be that the Reserve and U18 games seem to be nothing more than glorified friendlies. For example I've had Paul Pogba tear up the reserves and U18 leagues, he has an average rating of 7.47 after 21 games and has IIRC 5 moms, 3 goals and 5 assists.

In the last 12 months his CA has increased by 2. This increase is hardly encouraging for a top prospect at a time where his development is at the most important.

Change this with Chris Smalling who has played about 11 first team games and provided an average contribution of 6.78 of 2assts, 1 goal and 0 mom, his CA has increased by 11.

Comparing two different players is not a good example of CA increases. Other stats (determination, ambition, etc.) decide how fast the CA grows as well as match time.

When you say "CA can only be increased by match exposure" do you mean any type of match, including U18 and Reserve? I have never checked the CA of a player that has played zero matches for me but I have difficults believing that training does not improve stats. A player in the gym should increase his strength stat whether he plays or not.

I was under the impression that CA increase happens over time with training and the player get bonus stats for each match they play. The bonus is bigger for the more important match. Also the bonus would be more in the mental stats area were training can not reach.

[Miguel Lourinho]

I have one question in which I am struggling: Is it more important to have an overall High Bar in Workload like in here http://yfrog.com/2cscreenshot20101125at175p , or is it better to have a lower bar in workload and higher bar in training level progress like in here http://yfrog.com/n7screenshot20101125at175p ?

[mantralux]

I have one question in which I am struggling: Is it more important to have an overall High Bar in Workload like in here http://yfrog.com/2cscreenshot20101125at175p , or is it better to have a lower bar in workload and higher bar in training level progress like in here http://yfrog.com/n7screenshot20101125at175p ?

I'd say that training level progress is more important, as that shows how well the player actually trains.

[Abaka]

Comparing two different players is not a good example of CA increases. Other stats (determination, ambition, etc.) decide how fast the CA grows as well as match time.

When you say "CA can only be increased by match exposure" do you mean any type of match, including U18 and Reserve? I have never checked the CA of a player that has played zero matches for me but I have difficults believing that training does not improve stats. A player in the gym should increase his strength stat whether he plays or not.

I was under the impression that CA increase happens over time with training and the player get bonus stats for each match they play. The bonus is bigger for the more important match. Also the bonus would be more in the mental stats area were training can not reach.

You would believe that is the case, but it would appear the training dosn't improve the ability, it just directs where the ability is channeled into.

Personally speak, I believe mental stats should be increasingly difficult to train. Requiring match experiance to improve these stats

Physical stats should be improved solely by training

Technically players should develop by a combination of match plan and practice.

In my opinion, player development needs to be address quite a bit to make it more real

After all, if this CA dosn't improve by playing theory is true, it's completely against the theory of training.

Take David Beckham for example, he spent years training and honing his free kicks, so much that on his first game in the United squad he scored a free kick (first start against Galatassary I believe?) Years of training with United as a kid improved his physical stats to the point where he could play a part in a game.

Years of development in the youth team meant he was mentally strong enough to handle the pressure.

David Beckham didn't get to the point where he was at this stage in his career thanks to match exposure, it was careful development and training by United's coaches.

This got him to the point where he could force his way into the team, once he got in. The exposure of first team football and again training meant he became perhaps the best right sided midfielder in the world at one point.

At the moment training dosn't work like this. Ravel Morrison is a player with high PA, his CA is terrible which means he won't play first team football. He performs in the reserves and u18's but this dosn't improve him. Only first team football will develop him, but he's nowhere near good enough to play first team football and I feel that a few months on loan at a lesser level, lesser club, lesser facilities and AI training schedules will be pointless to him.

It therefore makes Ravel's PA pointless.

[ProZone]

I have one question in which I am struggling: Is it more important to have an overall High Bar in Workload like in here http://yfrog.com/2cscreenshot20101125at175p , or is it better to have a lower bar in workload and higher bar in training level progress like in here http://yfrog.com/n7screenshot20101125at175p ?

Neither is better in my opinion. It is entirely dependent on what you want to do, how you choose to manage the development of the player.

If you want to develop him in a general way i.e. give a fairly even level of training to all categories then you can achieve the highest Overall Training Level. I spent some time with SFraser last year trying to figure out whether there was a benefit of having a high Overall Training Level. There was a thought, and some guys argued quite strongly, that a high OTL gave a more rapid CA growth in players but it was never proved to my satisfaction.

If you want the player to concentrate on one area of his development then you go for the highest Training Level in that particular category, without question. In order to do this you will most probably have to reduce the Level of another category and you will notice that the Overall Training Level will drop. When you have big splits between category Training Levels you cannot reach the highest Overall Training Levels.

I could never work out the exact relationship between the catergory Training Levels and the OTL. I looked at this for FM10, I doubt it's changed but maybe you want to double-check it.

Bit of a rubbish answer this, but it's in keeping with the general ignorance which FM training is shrouded in.

[ProZone]

And so actually, the graphical on a page and the sliders on an another ... It becomes crazy and boring to manage ! Riz had conceed the fact, hope they repear it in the next patch. Honestly, i waiting it for beguinning a ... game.

Me too! This annoys the hell out of me!

Whoever at SI thought to do it this way clearly never uses the Training Levels Graph.

[jim morrow]

When I see all bugs and interface non sense, I'm asking myself what beta tester is used for ??? to only test color and name of clubs ???? did they ever play at FM before ? how can happen so visible bugs of yellow cards in spain champ, huge squad in French league, training interface nonsense, B team in Portugal bug with a serious beta-testing procedure !!!!!! SI games must improve a lot in this way.

[Cleon]

I see what you mean, I think it can't be trained, stamina can be improved by training, not natural fitness that is something related to genetics, as you said.

If we are talking real world terms natural fitness can be trained. It's something we focus on in our boxing schools, someone can be fit and have a lot of stamina but have a poor recovery rate. The recovery rate is what is known as natural fitness and someone who is naturally fit will regain fitness levels a lot quicker. We have some boxers who used to take weeks to recover and now they take days if that.

[ProZone]

You play this game a lot Cleon. Have you ever seen it increase in one of your players?

[Roman Chevalier]

hoo haa haa bookmarked. Mantralux could do a thesis on football manager. Or maybe just a guide. I'd buy it!

[Teutomatos]

If we are talking real world terms natural fitness can be trained. It's something we focus on in our boxing schools, someone can be fit and have a lot of stamina but have a poor recovery rate. The recovery rate is what is known as natural fitness and someone who is naturally fit will regain fitness levels a lot quicker. We have some boxers who used to take weeks to recover and now they take days if that.

ehehe a perfect exemple of bad training ... No good adaptation of each one. It's why we are talkin about how using graphical columns training in game. And why this is interesting because, if manage it with condition recorvery beetween 2 matchs, and you get the deal. Natural fitness, inside, for the same price.

At this point, how many matchs need to make the player ? Whatever is natural fitness player loose his condition after surroundings 2 weeks without playing match.

And without match exercice, ready to play, the training is disconnect ( except for the small part of strengh ... )

In another hand, the trick to manage the natural fitness, it could be the rotation of squad, line of players or individual player. A the end of line, the player's statuts, but it's an another thing.

With a natural fit 20, he can play all matchs

Nat Fit 15, he can play 3 matchs on 4

Nat Fit of 10, he can play 2 matchs on 4

Nat Fit of 5, he can't play 1 match on 4 because he's loosing his match exercice. So he's a perfect substitute 1/4 hour périod, on all matchs ! ( good partners for the NAt Fit 15 .. they are playing all matchs, in couple. )

It's not perfect, because sometimes the calendar rythm rules differently. But, it rules ok the most of time.

At least the numbers of selections, because the natural fitness capacities, open the negotiation of statut, and so ... wages. Over the talent, reputation, and the hidden attribut : too much ambition with unfair balancing of professionnalism level.

At the end, we return with managing of condition recovery and the general training volum beetween 2 matchs. The loop is buckled.

[Cleon]

You play this game a lot Cleon. Have you ever seen it increase in one of your players?

To be totally honest with you I'm not sure. I tend to ignore training completely as a rule as I honestly think you can achieve player improvement better by match experience. I find I can keep players on a basic schedule, but they'll make massive improvements in stats just from playing. It's one of the reasons I never have big squads, that way every one I have at the club will play a lot of games during a season. While I find the FM11 training a slight improvement I still don't think it's enough to make me concentrate on using it. For me it still doesn't really add anything worthwhile. I should get penalised in someway by ignoring training, but I don't. I see massive player improvements, have no condition issues and can use the same 11 all season mainly and suffer in so way what so ever. So for me, I see no point in using it in the current format.

That said, I'm not saying everyone should ignore training but for me its something I don't need. This thread is one of the best training ones this forum has seen, yet I can achieve the exact same results playing in my own way. So see no point.

Mantralux deserves credit for this thread though and by no means as I disrespecting what they have put, as they have been very informative and what they say is true and accurate

[Stejo]

I believe you're missing the point here. The point of training is not to increase attributes. This happens through match experience, regardless of training schedule. The whole idea behind training is to make sure the attribute increases are going to happen at the specific stats you desire.

[Cleon]

No I'm not missing the point I understand perfectly well what training does, but I achieve the same results by neglecting training. I get players gaining attributes in the correct stats by playing them simple as. Players progress the same with training or without, unless you want to change say a DC to striker and shift the focus from defensive to attack. That is the only time training can be useful imo. The fact is training should have more of a bearing on the tactical side of the game and punish me in some way for not using it. However currently I get no penalty or suffer any adverse effects by choosing to dismiss the option.

[NakS]

Me too! This annoys the hell out of me!

Whoever at SI thought to do it this way clearly never uses the Training Levels Graph.

I completely agree here, I have just finished gone through a half whole squad, it is about 27 players and I have still 26 more to do...almost 1 hours to make all of them properly, totally unplayable a BIG nonsense here, you have input (training sliders) on one screen and you have all the outputs (graphs) on another one...

BTW I remind a heavily detailled thread has been done here regarding this interface issue. Well Riz said they will see if they can do something about that...Hope they will! Anyways.

Quick update on the test save I am carrying out right now to provide data to analyse, screens, maybe explanations....

I have picked Southampton in npower League 1, and at day 1 (6 July 2010) I put ALL (first team and all youth) the players to the so called "linear schedule", every training slider at same notch.

Then I play (not holiday) until 2 October 2010 while making sure as many players as possible are match fit and play enough to keep fitness.

At 2 October 2010, I have made individual schedule for each player of the team according to player's training levels as I will explained right below. And that's it for now, I will continue to play (not holiday), keep an eye on fitness, graph levels....

I have made several intermediate saves at more or less a regular frequency to have "backup checkpoints" if needed for a screen, player initial attributes, levels, progress or something. Once I have done with all the individual schedules, I will made them available to download if you want to precisely look into something and it will saves me loads of screenshots.