England-Overrated

[Igorchete]

:confused: i thought it was croatia and russia that lost in the semi-finals of euro 2008, not turkey.

Turkey beat Croatia on penalties in the quarter-finals.

[charlo116]

Turkey beat Croatia on penalties in the quarter-finals.

oh my bad for some reason i thought croatia made the semi's.

[William Hall]

Turkey got to third place in 2002 world cup and the third place (Shared with Russia) in Euro 2008, much better than England and/or Scotland in the past 10 years, if you ask me

I almost forgot the Confederations Cup 3rd place in 2003...

By Confederations Cup, we (Australia) are better than England.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_FIFA_Confederations_Cup

[djwilko6]

Turkey got to third place in 2002 world cup and the third place (Shared with Russia) in Euro 2008, much better than England and/or Scotland in the past 10 years, if you ask me

I almost forgot the Confederations Cup 3rd place in 2003...

To quote your first post:

Hi,

I surely think that many English players and English teams are overrated in the game, when you are especially playing with a team outside the top 3 leagues, even mid-table teams like Everton are more dangerous to face in European competitions than top Italian clubs like Milan or top clubs in general like Marseille, Porto, Fenerbahce etc. Also the English national team players are obviously overrated because most of the time (even when the English league is not opened to play, if opened they destroy everyone) English national team dominates the first world cup,(2010), and two more tournaments before it starts to fade away. I know people are going to comment with their patriotic feelings but I want to ask:

When did Turkey last win the world cup? Never

When did Turkey won the European cup? Never

When did a Turkish club last win the Champs League or UEFA Cup?

I have no doubt in saying that English football IS much better than Turkish, by a long, long way and anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded.

[A.H.]

@djwilko

dude don't post before you read all the messages on the thread...

[djwilko6]

2000 13th

2001 16th

2002 15th

2003 7th

2004 17th

2005 4th

2006 11th

2007 6th

2008 5th

2009 5th

2010 8th

They look like a definite mid-table team to me...

@djwilko

dude don't post before you read all the messages on the thread...

You mean like that one?

You seem to have something against England and come out with drivel like 4th-6th place is midtable.

[A.H.]

I have nothing against England, if you ask me honestly 7th and down is mid-table just because 12000 teams go to Europe from England being 7th is not mid table? besides if you take an average of last 10 years they rank to be 10th or 11th which is mathematically mid-table... last five years average is also 7th... which is I am sure in your books is either mid-table or just one position above mid-table...

[x42bn6]

Teams like Fulham and Blackburn are generally considered mid-table - they spend all season wondering around the middle of the table, sometimes getting into European-challenging situations, sometimes flirting with relegation, but most of the time they end up in the middle of the table.

Teams like Everton are slightly above that - they regularly challenge for Europe.

[Wonky]

I have nothing against England, if you ask me honestly 7th and down is mid-table just because 12000 teams go to Europe from England being 7th is not mid table? besides if you take an average of last 10 years they rank to be 10th or 11th which is mathematically mid-table... last five years average is also 7th... which is I am sure in your books is either mid-table or just one position above mid-table...

Last 3 years makes much more sense than the last 5 years, and that is an average of 6th. IMO, you're just trolling. SCIAG blew your case out of the water almost straight away.

[sleepwalk]

Turkey got to third place in 2002 world cup and the third place (Shared with Russia) in Euro 2008, much better than England and/or Scotland in the past 10 years, if you ask me

I almost forgot the Confederations Cup 3rd place in 2003...

so, i say Germany is underrated..

IRL Germany performs much better in WC & EC.. (EVERY TIME!!!!!!)

And a lot of good players in the Bundesliga are technically or at CA/PA totally underrated compared to real life.

But maybe is it just because Si Games didnt have the rights for the Bundesliga & the Nationalmannschaft.. (damn EA sports )

or its because you english guys hate us, i dont know.. ^^

[SCIAG]

SI have the rights for the Bundesliga.

Germany and England are famous, respectively, for over-achieving and under-achieving. Spain historically have an under-achievement complex too. Such things are not coded in the game, and in Spain's case you can see why.

[A.H.]

Last 3 years makes much more sense than the last 5 years, and that is an average of 6th. IMO, you're just trolling. SCIAG blew your case out of the water almost straight away.

Even the uefa makes its rankings for the last five years. If you look at the last two years of a club like Galatasaray they got to 5th and 3rd place so we should say they are not a team challenging for championships? I am sure you know 2-3 years is far too short of a period of time.

[aderow]

Englands best players are not overrated.....they just suck when they play for england.

Also, there are many players from many different countries who play in england.....so I am little confused who exactly you are saying is overrated.....now that I think about it.....

[afced7]

Even the uefa makes its rankings for the last five years. If you look at the last two years of a club like Galatasaray they got to 5th and 3rd place so we should say they are not a team challenging for championships? I am sure you know 2-3 years is far too short of a period of time.

You missed out the real point of his post. SCAIG already addressed the points you have made, and 'blew your argument out of the water.'

Besides which, averages are mostly pointless. According to you, if a team came 17th, then turned itself around and came 3rd for the next 4 years, they're mid table.

[A.H.]

It will mean they just had one bad year in the last 5 years, it is not definetely the case with Everton, though, as you can see. Anyways, this is turning into a vicious cycle debate, the only thing I noticed on this post who are arguing that England is not over-rated are Brits.

[101east]

Go on then. Name 5 left backs better than Cole, 5 right backs better than Johnson, 7 centre backs better than Ferdinand, 5 strikers better than Rooney and 7 attacking midfielders better than Lampard.

I say 7 for Lampard and Ferdinand because most top teams nowadays play two centre backs and two attacking central midfielders. I could justifiably have said 10, but I'm giving you a sporting chance.

Left backs:

Zambrotta

Giovanni van Bronckhorst

Lahm

Grosso

Chivu

Right backs:

Sergio Aguero

Sergio Ramos

Maicon

Sagna

Dani Alves

Centre Back:

Mertesacker

Lucio

Carvalho

Puyol

Pique

Strike:

David Villa

Tevez

Robinho

Drogba

Luis Fabiano

Mid Feild:

Xavi

Inesta

Ronaldo

Cesc

Messi

-----------SIT DOWN AND STFU BEFORE YOU HURT YOURSELF----------

[ImOnFire15]

They are overrated...in real life.

[ImOnFire15]

Left backs:

Zambrotta

Giovanni van Bronckhorst

Lahm

Grosso

Chivu

Right backs:

Sergio Aguero

Sergio Ramos

Maicon

Sagna

Dani Alves

Centre Back:

Mertesacker

Lucio

Carvalho

Puyol

Pique

Strike:

David Villa

Tevez

Robinho

Drogba

Luis Fabiano

Mid Feild:

Xavi

Inesta

Ronaldo

Cesc

Messi

-----------SIT DOWN AND STFU BEFORE YOU HURT YOURSELF----------

LMFAO. Cole >>>>> Zambrotta, Chivu and Van Bronckhorst. Sergio Augero is not even RB smh

Rooney >> Luis Fabiano

SO YOU SHOULD SIT DOWN!

[afced7]

It will mean they just had one bad year in the last 5 years, it is not definetely the case with Everton, though, as you can see. Anyways, this is turning into a vicious cycle debate, the only thing I noticed on this post who are arguing that England is not over-rated are Brits.

Again, you missed the point. SCIAG HAS RENDERED YOUR ARGUMENTS NONSENSE.

P.S the only person who seems to be arguing that they are overrated is you.

@101east if you think Aguero is a right back then you are the most clueless person to ever have posted on any board, ever, and I have no idea why you would buy this game.

[aderow]

They are overrated...in real life.

Really? Now how did you come to this conclusion?

I just read 101east's post....oh wow

Anyone who includes a player way beyond his prime and a player who has retired....oh and thinks that aguero is a full back.....probably shouldnt be apart of this discussion me thinks

[A.H.]

Again, you missed the point. SCIAG HAS RENDERED YOUR ARGUMENTS NONSENSE.

Not really, we each exchanged our ideas and I disagree with him, and in the forwards debate why is everyone forgetting Ibrahimovic?

Since everyone is making a list

Goalkeeper-Pretty much everyone

Right back

Ramos

Maicon

Dani Alves

Left Back

Lahm

?

?

Center Back

Lucio

Puyol

Vidic

Pique

Mertesacker

Midfield

Xavi

Iniesta

Ronaldo

Messi

Fabregas

Forwards

Ibrahimovic

Eto'o

Villa

Drogba

(maybe) Tevez

and someone asked "why people are not complaining about France? They did horrible in the World Cup"

Because the Upper-Mid-table teams (maybe that will make some of you happy) teams of France don't rip apart teams like Ajax, Porto, Fenerbahce etc. The French players play in different divisons whereas 99% of the time English Players play in the UK.

[Passion Fruit]

Hi,

I surely think that many English players and English teams are overrated in the game, when you are especially playing with a team outside the top 3 leagues, even mid-table teams like Everton are more dangerous to face in European competitions than top Italian clubs like Milan or top clubs in general like Marseille, Porto, Fenerbahce etc. Also the English national team players are obviously overrated because most of the time (even when the English league is not opened to play, if opened they destroy everyone) English national team dominates the first world cup,(2010), and two more tournaments before it starts to fade away. I know people are going to comment with their patriotic feelings but I want to ask:

When did England last win the world cup? 44 years ago

When did England won the European cup? Never, their best resul come 14 years ago when they were the hosts and got to third place.

The English clubs are supposedly "the most succesful clubs in Europe", is it true? No, in the last 10 years they won 2 champ leagues and 1 uefa cup, whereas the Spanish won 4 champ leagues and 4 uefas and Italians winnning 3 champ leagues.

Yes, it might be most watched league in the world, but is English football on top of the world? I highly doubt it.

Ever seen the UEFA Coefficients? If not, then i suggest you look at them.

[Martyr1777]

Remember the game is made on set numbers for players, basically comparing these number plus a little randomness here and there are how the matches are simulated. So with that in mind you figure that the players that made up England and France are two of the strongest squads in the world... -ON PAPER- and the game is based -ON PAPER-.

And yeah France and England were two well thought of squads before the World Cup IRL. For whatever reason neither side gelled at all as a national team so all expectations went out the window, the -players- weren't overrated I think we all know that, they just couldn't play as a team. The game does take that into account some but it's more what's -ON PAPER-.

People need to relax and not make such a big deal about things like this. If you think English teams/players are too good then play a smaller league. My MLS team has almost all it's international slots full of Brazilians and they are dominating for me. Now that I think about it, there isn't a single English player in the MLS at all, not that I remember seeing.

[Ezequiel_Lavezzi]

Hi,

I surely think that many English players and English teams are overrated in the game, when you are especially playing with a team outside the top 3 leagues, even mid-table teams like Everton are more dangerous to face in European competitions than top Italian clubs like Milan or top clubs in general like Marseille, Porto, Fenerbahce etc. Also the English national team players are obviously overrated because most of the time (even when the English league is not opened to play, if opened they destroy everyone) English national team dominates the first world cup,(2010), and two more tournaments before it starts to fade away. I know people are going to comment with their patriotic feelings but I want to ask:

When did England last win the world cup? 44 years ago

When did England won the European cup? Never, their best resul come 14 years ago when they were the hosts and got to third place.

The English clubs are supposedly "the most succesful clubs in Europe", is it true? No, in the last 10 years they won 2 champ leagues and 1 uefa cup, whereas the Spanish won 4 champ leagues and 4 uefas and Italians winnning 3 champ leagues.

Yes, it might be most watched league in the world, but is English football on top of the world? I highly doubt it.

(I stand and applaud)

BRAVO! BRAVO!

EPL is the richest league (talent + money wise but not for long!) with the best attacking players and midfielders in the world, but the defending is still utterly useless. Every second game is a 6-0 drubbing and as an Italian, I find the League to be a complete and utter farce.

5-6 strong sides, then the rest of the EPL isn't even as good as second tier football in France.

[Ezequiel_Lavezzi]

Oh yeah definetly, only out of Europe twice in the last 6 seasons...

So that makes them a "sort of" Champions League side as SCIAG "sort of" put it.

[dr-nix]

Rooney >> Luis Fabiano

.....you must be high or something

[Ezequiel_Lavezzi]

Left backs:

Zambrotta

Grosso

Right backs:

Sagna

Centre Back:

Carvalho

Strike:

Robinho

Mid Feild:

-----------SIT DOWN AND STFU BEFORE YOU HURT YOURSELF----------

Those players are a joke.

I agree the EPL is over-rated in real life along with many EPL players, but those players currently are not better than the English players mentioned. Sorry.

[dafuge]

5-6 strong sides, then the rest of the EPL isn't even as good as second tier football in France.

I suppose that makes Fulham and Middlesbrough competing in European finals in recent years all the more impressive

[afced7]

Not really, we each exchanged our ideas and I disagree with him, and in the forwards debate why is everyone forgetting Ibrahimovic?

Well lets have a look at the points you disagree with.

1. Everton are not rated as highly as AC Milan, Porto and Marseille. This is easy to prove with the editor, FMRTE, Genie Scout etc, so you cant disagree

2. Rio Ferdinand, Ashley Cole, Wayner Rooney and Frank Lampard are AMONGST (the important bit, everybody seems to be trying to prove they aren't THE best) the best players in the world.

Please tell me how and why you would disagree with this

3. SI haven't released a way for said World class players to play worse for their countries. They will therefore play as well as they do for their clubs when playing for England.

All your argument seems to be is 'but England haven't won the world cup since 1966'.

Finally, how do you know teams like Everton are ripping AC Milan etc? Are you playing as the teams getting thrased, watching the games etc? And how far in are you? If its 2030 then things are bound to be different.

[afced7]

complete and utter farce.

5-6 strong sides, then the rest of the EPL isn't even as good as second tier football in France.

Don't even get me started on how much of a farce Italian football is. Teams losing money hand over fist, losing the fourth CL spot, Calciopoli, splits and disagreements between the league and clubs, an awful World cup showing, rising fan violence, and most of the 'good' teams rely on their history to seem impressive, when in reality they're paper tigers. Maybe you've heard the saying, 'people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones'? I think that very much applies here.

[djwilko6]

Don't even get me started on how much of a farce Italian football is. Teams losing money hand over fist, losing the fourth CL spot, Calciopoli, splits and disagreements between the league and clubs, an awful World cup showing, rising fan violence, and most of the 'good' teams rely on their history to seem impressive, when in reality they're paper tigers. Maybe you've heard the saying, 'people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones'? I think that very much applies here.

Lets not forget the corruption.

[aderow]

Lavezzi please don't start to generalise the entire league and the entire season after just 2 games....

I have two questions....

1. Is it that you don't think england's best players are not really that good?

2. Why are you just ripping on english players when there are many players from so many other countries who play in england?

[A.H.]

Well lets have a look at the points you disagree with.

1. Everton are not rated as highly as AC Milan, Porto and Marseille. This is easy to prove with the editor, FMRTE, Genie Scout etc, so you cant disagree

2. Rio Ferdinand, Ashley Cole, Wayner Rooney and Frank Lampard are AMONGST (the important bit, everybody seems to be trying to prove they aren't THE best) the best players in the world.

Please tell me how and why you would disagree with this

3. SI haven't released a way for said World class players to play worse for their countries. They will therefore play as well as they do for their clubs when playing for England.

All your argument seems to be is 'but England haven't won the world cup since 1966'.

Finally, how do you know teams like Everton are ripping AC Milan etc? Are you playing as the teams getting thrased, watching the games etc? And how far in are you? If its 2030 then things are bound to be different.

1-I meant about Milan being usually an easier opposition than Everton, it is written in the post like that, I specifically wrote Everton's abilitiy to rip apart teams like, Porto, OM, Fenerbahce and Ajax.

Here are some figures

Everton compared with Porto and OM;

Everton's reputation is way lower than Porto and OM as it should be; Everton with 7150, Porto 8300 and OM 8000, here is the real trick though the CA Average of the best eleven Everton players is 152, for Porto it is 145 and for Marseille it is 149. This is the point I am trying to make.

2-They surely are, but Upson, Johnson and James are NOT.

3-Yeah it's true.

[afced7]

Yeah but not every player in every good team is good. Is Joan Capdevila amongst the best left backs in the world? Is Cacau amongst the best strikers, or Andre Ooijer one of the best centre backs? No, but their national teams managed to get it together in spite of them not being world class.

That aside, you clearly are just trolling. What exactly do you want to happen? SI to release a post world cup patch making England crap? Wait till FM11 comes out, and come back if you still think England are overrated. Until then go play in the traffic.

[ImOnFire15]

.....you must be high or something

No. Fabiano does well for his nation but for his club hes alright. Opposite for Rooney. But IMO Club > Country

[Svenc]

so, i say Germany is underrated..

IRL Germany performs much better in WC & EC.. (EVERY TIME!!!!!!)

And a lot of good players in the Bundesliga are technically or at CA/PA totally underrated compared to real life.

But maybe is it just because Si Games didnt have the rights for the Bundesliga & the Nationalmannschaft.. (damn EA sports )

or its because you english guys hate us, i dont know.. ^^

I know there's a fair deal of tongue-in-cheekiness in there, but for the records: The only current football international from Germany that was likely rated by an Englishman is Ballack - by the Chelsea researcher(s) to be more precise. A bit of bias is part of the entire rating thing really, you'd hardly find two men who would completely agree on each other. The researchers have a bit of a rough job to do, if they do it correctly, awesome game, if they don't, the researchers don't have a bloody clue what they're doing. The German research teams' bias is even well documented, and in this case rather than "overrating" it wen the other way 'round - Mef was talking about Schweinsteiger here. Not clever, but stuff happens...

Also England, that is, the FA, famous for underachieving? It is famous for being ignorant and stalwart - not entirelly unsimilar to what the DFB used to be a decade ago, but for them the self-dellusion and stalwart thinking was based on trophies rather than wishful thinking and "motherland of football" self-conception which is taking things for entirelly granted. Not that the result was any different: progress wasn't considered, and hey, don't fix what ain't broke, right? The FA didn't go anywhere in decades and self-delude themselves time and time again even after massive failures such as EURO2000 that everything is mighty fine (an assessment partly adopted in this very thread). In truth there are serious issues with youth coaching, tactical awareness and a governing body that has long since lost all kinds of grip it ever had on the sports at its top tier level, which is, the Premier League.

But the longer as the self-delusion continues, the better for its rivals, for there is no reason why England shouldn't be amongst the real contenders what with its rich football history and player pool. Until then seeing the FA regularly choking when facing the first proper opposition has long stopped being a surprise anymore - at least 16 years ago, that is.

Yeah but not every player in every good team is good. Is Joan Capdevila amongst the best left backs in the world? Is Cacau amongst the best strikers, or Andre Ooijer one of the best centre backs? No, but their national teams managed to get it together in spite of them not being world class.

That aside, you clearly are just trolling. What exactly do you want to happen? SI to release a post world cup patch making England crap? Wait till FM11 comes out, and come back if you still think England are overrated. Until then go play in the traffic.

There are teams fielding players of various level of quality - and then there is England's lack of backup in key areas. Slamming England keypers is way too clichè, so let's concentrate on the predictabilty of the attacks and the coresponding lack of creativity in midfield - blaming slow play, lack of comfort in possession and poor passing all on the weather, the ball and the fans works once. It has been a trademark of this team for three and half tournaments now. And lest not forget the distinct lack of a holding player so brutally punished by Löw this summer.

[aderow]

If you forget who they play for and who they play against, and just look at how have performed in the matches they have played......england's top players (gerrard, rooney, lampard, terry, ferdinand) have had a lot more games where they have played exceptionally well than games where they have played really poorly......it just so happens that the games where they have played badly, they happened to be wearing an england shirt a good amount of it.

[djwilko6]

Also England, that is, the FA, famous for underachieving? It is famous for being ignorant and stalwart - not entirelly unsimilar to what the DFB used to be a decade ago, but for them the self-dellusion and stalwart thinking was based on trophies rather than wishful thinking and "motherland of football" self-conception which is taking things for entirelly granted. Not that the result was any different: progress wasn't considered, and hey, don't fix what ain't broke, right? The FA didn't go anywhere in decades and self-delude themselves time and time again even after massive failures such as EURO2000 that everything is mighty fine (an assessment partly adopted in this very thread). In truth there are serious issues with youth coaching, tactical awareness and a governing body that has long since lost all kinds of grip it ever had on the sports at its top tier level, which is, the Premier League.

But the longer as the self-delusion continues, the better for its rivals, for there is no reason why England shouldn't be amongst the real contenders what with its rich football history and player pool. Until then seeing the FA regularly choking when facing the first proper opposition has long stopped being a surprise anymore - at least 16 years ago, that is.

You have an excellent grasp of the FA and our media right there, unfortunetly England fans get tarred with the same brush, which is why you see trolls like A.H. and lavezzi (who only ever posts to troll).

As I've said before, slag off the team, and the English media, they deserve it, however mostEnglish fans know exactly how good (or should I say average) we are.

[A.H.]

You have an excellent grasp of the FA and our media right there, unfortunetly England fans get tarred with the same brush, which is why you see trolls like A.H. and lavezzi (who only ever posts to troll).

As I've said before, slag off the team, and the English media, they deserve it, however mostEnglish fans know exactly how good (or should I say average) we are.

Again I must say I am not a troll, which you can see from my other posts, and again why don't you argue about the points I raised a few posts before about CA averages...

[charlo116]

There are teams fielding players of various level of quality - and then there is England's lack of backup in key areas. Slamming England keypers is way too clichè, so let's concentrate on the predictabilty of the attacks and the coresponding lack of creativity in midfield - blaming slow play, lack of comfort in possession and poor passing all on the weather, the ball and the fans works once. It has been a trademark of this team for three and half tournaments now. And lest not forget the distinct lack of a holding player so brutally punished by Löw this summer.

I agree with this completely, there seems to be a real lack of creativity in england's play and none of their midfielders at the world cup looked like they wanted to track back and defend. There were so many times in the england-germany game where england lost the ball and germany countered and it would be all of germany's midfield and their striker on the four at the back. They definently need to reinvent their team and drop a number of their ageing stars for some younger talent, and more importantly mould some of their young stars into playing the type of football they need to play.

[FrazT]

This thread has gone some way off topic so I will close it now- there is a Football Forum specifically for discussions like these so use that if you wish to cointinue.