It's time for a leap of faith

[crouchaldinho]

I said this on page 1 didnt I?

Pretty sure that we all did.

[tak]

Many years ago a man had an idea: "I am going to create a football game that you will play as the manager. You will input your instructions and you are going to see your team playing". Do you want to hear the reaction?

"This is ridiculous, it can't happen. Imagine all the gazillions of combinations happening in the pitch. As for the possible instructions? They are quatrillions."

Yet, today we have a brilliant product in our hands. Maybe whoever came up with the idea did not have a clue about football matches. Maybe he could not propose a single thing about how it could be done.

The essence of this thread, which is "starting with a blank page and building a realistic environment in which the manager operates", is only a matter of resources and will and ingenuity.

Let us discuss my argument that tactics are a relatively small part football management, particularly at higer levels (and special competitions as RBKalle argued), at another thread. I will open one immediately. Let us do the same with Greece.

With my Ronaldinho example, I showed a string of events that are possible in real life? Is there someone who disagrees with that? Of course it is a very particular string of events that could not be repeated. But, every goal you score in FM is a particular string of events that can not be repeated.

How can an engine created that, like the match engine (ME), simulates such events?

Let us start with this question (the "leap of faith" I was talking about)

[tingting]

Let us discuss my argument that tactics are a relatively small part football management, particularly at higer levels (and special competitions as RBKalle argued), at another thread. I will open one immediately. Let us do the same with Greece.

Tak i am sorry to say but i disagree here. Tactics are an important part in whatever level of football be it in an international squad or in the lowest level of football. If you want to say tactics are not the only thing a manager at a high level club does, then yes...i think many of us will agree that along with tactics there are other things which influences a team's performance and we can have a discussion regarding ways to increase the motivational side or interaction side of a manager. But if you continue to say they play only a minor part and motivation is more important, then not many will agree.

Even if it is true that managers at big clubs do not give much tactical information for their players, then that is the case when the big team is taking on a relatively inferior team...but in matches between big clubs it is tactics that win while motivation takes a backseat (of course that is a different matter in derbies but even in such cases motivation is not the most important thing)

With my Ronaldinho example, I showed a string of events that are possible in real life? Is there someone who disagrees with that? Of course it is a very particular string of events that could not be repeated. But, every goal you score in FM is a particular string of events that can not be repeated.

How can an engine created that, like the match engine (ME), simulates such events?

Let us start with this question (the "leap of faith" I was talking about)

What exactly should be done to reflect real life events in the game? You want players to go on a drinking binge? You want the game to reflect some players taking cocaine...well apart from the fact that such things rarely affect the performance of a club, there is a legal angle too. Let us take your example and say that the game ronaldinho has a habit of drinking heavily or taking cocaine, but this will leave SI liable to get sued by the real ronaldinho. You want players to miss training?? but no one does that unless they are unhappy at the club and sometimes this situation is already reflected in the game depending on the players' professional ratings.

[tak]

Hi tingting

I know many people in this forum do not agree that tactics is a relatively small piece of a manager's job. I still thing though, tactics have some importance. Anyway, I opened a new thread about that and it will be very interesting I think.

About your question, no I don't want drinking problems and drug abuse in the game. I just gave an example of a complete realistic string of events that produced a trophy.

I also do not have a clue how it could be done but I know that a realistic environment is needed if we want to enjoy a better simulation. Like I said, the creators of this genre did not know how they could create a football match simulation, when they first got the idea. But they did it.

I do not have a strong creative side, but if I were to run a project like that I would have long discussions with talented (probably young) developers (if that's the right word) to see how we could create this realistic environment

More importantly, I would challenge them to think of that not as an add-on (like press conferences or tutoring) but as a completely new thing.

Do you have any ideas?

Best regards

tak.

[Tomer]

Well, that's quite an anticlimax

[Blaupunkt]

Hi tingting

I know many people in this forum do not agree that tactics is a relatively small piece of a manager's job. I still thing though, tactics have some importance. Anyway, I opened a new thread about that and it will be very interesting I think.

About your question, no I don't want drinking problems and drug abuse in the game. I just gave an example of a complete realistic string of events that produced a trophy.

No it wasn't, seriously!

I also do not have a clue how it could be done but I know that a realistic environment is needed if we want to enjoy a better simulation. Like I said, the creators of this genre did not know how they could create a football match simulation, when they first got the idea. But they did it.

??? are suggesting when FM was first created back in the day the very first champ man that was released they did not know what they were trying to achieve. that they some how stumbled up on making a football management game.

I do not have a strong creative side, but if I were to run a project like that I would have long discussions with talented (probably young) developers (if that's the right word) to see how we could create this realistic environment

firstly, i think we have all come to realise that you have no "real" ideas, just lots of assumptions that you assume to be true.

secondly, do you not think the SI team as a whole do not already have long discussions and are already a very talented bunch of programmers and developers ? not sure about the young bit though

More importantly, I would challenge them to think of that not as an add-on (like press conferences or tutoring) but as a completely new thing.

again i have to ask how you think press conferences or tutoring etc were added to the game, are you implying that they were an after thought that were just tacked onto the game to give the user something else to do, that these features were not discussed or thought through about how they would work with the game and also researched ?

Do you have any ideas?

what ideas are you asking for, ideas about how the current in game features can be improved up on or ideas about how we can have scenarios similar to your "story" implemented into the game obviously with out the binge drinking, drug abuse and use of prostitutes etc ?

[tak]

No it wasn't, seriously!

Why not?

??? are suggesting when FM was first created back in the day the very first champ man that was released they did not know what they were trying to achieve. that they some how stumbled up on making a football management game.

No. I am saying that when new first idea of a football simulation appeared, they did not know how to do it. The key word is how.

firstly, i think we have all come to realise that you have no "real" ideas, just lots of assumptions that you assume to be true.

secondly, do you not think the SI team as a whole do not already have long discussions and are already a very talented bunch of programmers and developers ? not sure about the young bit though

No. I don't understand where that came from. As a matter of fact, I trust SI to have the resources to complete such a project, should they choose to start it.

again i have to ask how you think press conferences or tutoring etc were added to the game, are you implying that they were an after thought that were just tacked onto the game to give the user something else to do, that these features were not discussed or thought through about how they would work with the game and also researched ?

I think those features were discussed and thought through before they were added to the game.

what ideas are you asking for, ideas about how the current in game features can be improved up on or ideas about how we can have scenarios similar to your "story" implemented into the game obviously with out the binge drinking, drug abuse and use of prostitutes etc ?

Ideas about creating a realistic environment.

[tingting]

Ideas about creating a realistic environment.

By realistic environment if you mean players getting unhappy if they are played out of position, removing the ability to changing the style of play 10 times in a single game, getting players to train in a position specific way (ie central defenders not training on finishing when the main aim of putting them in shooting training is to improve their composure) or complaining when they do not start a set number of games depending on their squad status then yes...i will agree with you and hope that SI work on it. But if the realistic environment means players unzipping in clubs, getting prostitutes, getting married, having kids etc etc...that is no way related to or has an affect on football..it is just spicy news for a tabloid.

[Blaupunkt]

Why not?

because what you wrote is total fantasy with a few real life elements thrown in.

using some of the scenario's you had in your story...

Scenario A, you have a players who is home sick or cannot settle for some reason.

Solution A, you send him home on a few weeks leave, try and bring in a someone who can speak the same language - both of these you can do now, yes this can be worked on and give you more choices on how you can deal with this problem and also more feed back as to why the player is home sick or cannot settle.

Scenario B you have a player who is court using by a random drugs test.

Solution B you send him to rehab and hope he can over come his addiction, out come, you lose him for 6, 9, 12 months of the game, he gets a life time ban, he comes back to the game clean OR he cannot over come his drugs habit and is forced to retire.

Scenario C you have a player who is an alcoholic.

Solution C see solution B for your answer.

Scenario D you go to sign a player whos sponsors say he must play every game or words to that effect.

Solution D you dont sign him, no manager in his right mind will sign him with such a clause in his contract, out come with the player has no future in the game or the sponsors have to drop their ridicules demands.

Scenario E you have 2 players who do not get on for whatever reason.

Solution E if they cannot work out the problems and put personal agenda to one side then you will have to evaluate which of the 2 players is more valuable to your team and sell the other, again this is also in the game admittedly you have no input or any idea why they might not be getting on for no reason but this can be worked on to find out why the 2 players do not get on and maybe some comments could be used to the players to try and tell them to work out or else.

thats it for now, but IMHO only A and E would be worth expanding in the game to some degree. Scenarios B, C, and D, even if they could be implemented would be totally pointless and not make the game fun or add anything to it.

could you imagine the amounts of complaining on these forums by people who have just spent £££ millions on a star player only for a couple of weeks later he has to be sent to rehab but 9 months later that fails and he has to quite the game, or you sign or have a good/great player in your squad but he is in a poor run of form so you drop him for a couple of weeks only to find the sponsors of said player use the clause in his contract and take him out of your club and sell him to your closest rivals!

[jcafcwbb]

Can we please just get some post match press conferences that actually bear in mind the accounts on the pitch. If one of my players get a red card or we concede a penalty ask me about it and not how winning a third game in a row will affect my players' confidence.

[tak]

Blaupunkt, I appreciate the time it took to write this analysis, but it is not at all what I meant by this example.

[djwilko6]

Blaupunkt, I appreciate the time it took to write this analysis, but it is not at all what I meant by this example.

Then explain what you did mean insted of letting people assume what you ment.

[Blaupunkt]

well until you post something that is clear with good examples of what you mean, the types of things you wish to see added into FM i do not see much point in continuing this thread if i am honest.

[tak]

Like I have said a few times, it was an example on how a perfectly realistic string of event can create a football triumph. I also said that I didn't write it to suggest that those kind of events should be included in the game.

Looking at your analysis, Blaupunkt, I realised that people are used to "man-management" add-ons to work in a very question and answer way: You get a situation and you do something. For example: Your player can't settle, you bring him a compatriot. A player has an average of 5, you say dissapointed.

If a realistic environment is to ever exist in FM, it has to be drawn from scratch, not just add more questions and more answers.

I trust SI, like I said, because they have created an engine that produces unique strings of events every time. It is called the match engine.

Maybe a similar engine could be built, to include many different factors that affect a player's psyche and his performance in training and on the pitch.

[Blaupunkt]

so you are asking for a Sims 3 like game to be added to FM ?

[tak]

No, I am not.

[edgar555]

It sounds like you really are.

[tak]

Do you want to think about it for a while and come back tomorrow?

[anagain]

Ideas about creating a realistic environment.

Okay, I'll bite.

The tactical modules of FM need continual enhancements, so keep that up. I think many would agree that that is the chief part of the game, so SI are naturally going to devote their time to making sure it is as good as it can be.

In conjunction to that I would be quite happy with a few basic changes:

1. Training. This could be massively enhanced to allow you to really influence a player's improvement. You could even add in ways to train players in their mental attitude to the game.

2. Player meetings. We now have staff meetings and I think it could be a natural continuation to have player meetings. There is a method by which you can call a player meeting to discuss bad form but it's not easy to get to and nor are you directed to do so. I often feel a bit overwhelmed at trying to reverse a bad run and would like more ways to do so than the encouraging press conference.

3. Continuation of improvement to press conferences and team talks. This can always be worked on and I am sure will continue to be done so.

I don't think a new mechanic is needed. I think what is there is a good start and can be worked on to really add to FM. Like tak, I trust SI to be able to improve where improvement is necessary.

Is that what you mean, tak? If you ignore this because it doesn't conform to your wants and no future discussion is warranted then at least have some good reasons why. You may think that FM needs more than improvement to existing mechanics but you really need to have some ideas if you think that. At least have some ideas as to why what might be suggested doesn't work.

[rocky0]

Im just going to throw a simple observation into this discussion. I can understand and appreciate there being outside factors that can affect the way a player preforms on the pitch. Being able to have this worked into the game in someway, if I am understanding Tak's idea, would also be a good thing. A big hurdle to this though is something that SI cannot overcome.

If you look at real life examples, many times the outside element that causes a player to nt preform is alcohol/drugs/crime, at least these are the issues that I can think of within the last few months. SI could not use these types of instances because it would setup a potential legal liabilty. This type of discussion usually comes up when a footballer makes headlines for the wrong reason. Imagine what would happen if in the game generates a player as having a drug problem. That same player in real life would almost certainly have an issue with this.

You have to take into account what types of issues would SI actually be able to use in affecting players and then decide if it would be worth putting into the game. I think this is one aspect of real life that does not need to be added into the game. There are enough factors in the game already that make it a challenge. If the already existing modules of the game, training, scouting, interaction between players/mangers, etc., could be developed more, this would bring more to the game without having to add in more and more features.

I agree with most in this thread that it's the tactics that affect a players performance more than anything else. If you have your formation setup that your slowest striker out on the wing and expect him to run at the defense and break them down on the wing, doesnt that affect the player in a negative way??

I like the idea of outside factors affecting a player's play but I dont agree that they would affect a player more than the way he is used by his manager.

As always, just my two cents, take it for what it's worth

[tak]

By realistic environment if you mean players getting unhappy if they are played out of position, removing the ability to changing the style of play 10 times in a single game, getting players to train in a position specific way (ie central defenders not training on finishing when the main aim of putting them in shooting training is to improve their composure) or complaining when they do not start a set number of games depending on their squad status then yes...i will agree with you and hope that SI work on it. But if the realistic environment means players unzipping in clubs, getting prostitutes, getting married, having kids etc etc...that is no way related to or has an affect on football..it is just spicy news for a tabloid.

I agree that all those things could be introduced. And indeed we can do without tabloid news although, in real life, they have an effect on certain players.

Okay, I'll bite.

The tactical modules of FM need continual enhancements, so keep that up. I think many would agree that that is the chief part of the game, so SI are naturally going to devote their time to making sure it is as good as it can be.

In conjunction to that I would be quite happy with a few basic changes:

1. Training. This could be massively enhanced to allow you to really influence a player's improvement. You could even add in ways to train players in their mental attitude to the game.

2. Player meetings. We now have staff meetings and I think it could be a natural continuation to have player meetings. There is a method by which you can call a player meeting to discuss bad form but it's not easy to get to and nor are you directed to do so. I often feel a bit overwhelmed at trying to reverse a bad run and would like more ways to do so than the encouraging press conference.

3. Continuation of improvement to press conferences and team talks. This can always be worked on and I am sure will continue to be done so.

I don't think a new mechanic is needed. I think what is there is a good start and can be worked on to really add to FM. Like tak, I trust SI to be able to improve where improvement is necessary.

Is that what you mean, tak? If you ignore this because it doesn't conform to your wants and no future discussion is warranted then at least have some good reasons why. You may think that FM needs more than improvement to existing mechanics but you really need to have some ideas if you think that. At least have some ideas as to why what might be suggested doesn't work.

I apologised for ignoring some posts because they are simply too many, so I am sorry if one of them was yours.

The improvements you ask for are reasonable, I am just trying to see if there is an opportunity for something revolutionary. It is hard for me to explain and consequently hard for you to understand. Add to that the kids screaming paragraphs from the Pyramid, and it makes sense we are moving slowly. However, progress is being made.

There is a great book written by an old wise man (not wwfan) about the campaign of Napoleon to Moscow and his ugly retreat. In this he takes some time to explain how what we frequently perceive as the result of the genius of a general (winning a battle) is actually the result of a combination of many events. A lot of times the celebrated general took decisions that were dictated by reality like in a "forced mat" sequence. He just made the only move available...

In football we have the same. Managers' actions are not free like in FM, they are often dictated. Moreover, there are sequences of events that can make them legends or ridicule them, whatever there input is.

However, it is customary, especially in this forum, to discuss about tactical decisions. Everyone has a hobby of course, others waffle about cars others about cinema. Hobbies have terminology, books, specialisation and, more importantly, narrowness of view.

But I am drifting away again.

Yes, my friend anagain, your proposals are to the point. It is as impossible to develop a player physically as it is mentaly. (Que here the usual answers that both are in the game but I haven't discovered them) The detail that exists in creating all those wonderful pyramids by working 750 sliders, should exist in training. There is absolutely no question about that.

Many people wrote that in here and I am glad I have a chance to agree. All the tactical work of a manager happens in training. However, in FM, all the tactical work of a manager happens after the press conference. What is he doing during the week? Is he in Brazil with Ronaldinho?

The reason that training is not developed is, in my humble opinion, that it is not a topic of discussion amongst the main market of FM, pyramid lovers. It is not exiting. The young pyramids want to construct formations and tactics, not train their players. And that's fair enough.

My concern was not training, although it is a shambles now. It was to simulate a dynamic environment where players and staff feel like real people, interact, have mixed feelings about things (lol), and where many factors are combined, like in the match engine.

I still haven't quite formed it. Like I said though, I would nail it with the right people on board.

[Cougar2010]

I've tried to stay aware from this thread but I feel I need to comment.

I can honestly say I'm lost when it comes to tak, I don't know if he is being serious, sarcastic or just looking for conversation most of the time.

Yes, my friend anagain, your proposals are to the point. It is as impossible to develop a player physically as it is mentaly. (Que here the usual answers that both are in the game but I haven't discovered them) The detail that exists in creating all those wonderful pyramids by working 750 sliders, should exist in training. There is absolutely no question about that.

Are you seriously suggesting players don't improve within FM?

Moving away from that I sort of understand that you are looking for an improvement/expansion to the off-field activities to more reflect real life. Further for all the modules within FM to interact more with each other.

Personally I would be open to trying more/improved off-field activities but has it occurred to you that some/many? FM players only want to play the matches and race through seasons.

Setting up a training scheme, negotiating a transfer or even watching highlights are far too time consuming for some users as shown by this forum. These people want a faster, simpler game and SI need to consider these users when programming. By adding more depth through non-football events you further alienate them.

[tak]

Cougar, you are right. What I meant is that you can develop a player physically with a thing called training which is a few sliders and mentaly by assigning tutors. It happens, they develop, but what is your input in that?

I agree also that market forces dictate that the game is as it is, and I said it a couple of times.

[anagain]

The improvements you ask for are reasonable, I am just trying to see if there is an opportunity for something revolutionary. It is hard for me to explain and consequently hard for you to understand. Add to that the kids screaming paragraphs from the Pyramid, and it makes sense we are moving slowly. However, progress is being made.

Sorry to pick out just one paragraph but your comments are what FM is. It's not hard for me to understand what you mean. I know what you mean. You want that something revolutionary. But, bear in mind the following.

When FM first hit computers it was revolutionary.

When FM first included training modules it was revolutionary.

When FM first moved away from commentary only to 2D pitch displays it was revolutionary.

When FM first introduced press conferences it was revolutionary.

When FM first introduced 3D matches it was revolutionary.

I could go on.

The point is that FM continues to up the bar and football management sims continue to improve. CM improving steadily is a good thing for FM as they need to add new and exciting ideas, hence the 3D match engine, I suspect. The problem is that new and revolutionary ideas can not be just plonked into the game and everything works fine. They have to start somewhere. Press conferences were basic when they arrived. The 3D match display was basic. The tactical engine has had years to develop.

If SI were to come along with a revolutionary new social element to FM we may call it revolutionary and awe-inspiring but what would it do to the game?

These things need to come in stages, so get your head down Tonto and think of ways that what we have can be bettered upon. That is the best for FM. A steady improvement over the years.

[Cougar2010]

Cougar, you are right. What I meant is that you can develop a player physically with a thing called training which is a few sliders and mentaly by assigning tutors. It happens, they develop, but what is your input in that?

I see what you are saying with training.

You set the scheme then leave it as the player develops rarely making changes. A lot never touch training at all.

On top of that we can retrain positions and encourage players to develop PPMs which is hardly "in depth"

The problem is I can't see how this can be successfully improved.

CM have gone with training sessions that you can watch - Other than being a gimmick how many users really watch them more than an odd time. I would estimate extremely low as it would fast become boring.

I few versions ago we had an open week schedule and a list of possible "training routines" which could be entered into the weekly plan. It wasn't popular amongst users so it was simplified to what we have now.

[tak]

Sorry to pick out just one paragraph but your comments are what FM is. It's not hard for me to understand what you mean. I know what you mean. You want that something revolutionary. But, bear in mind the following.

When FM first hit computers it was revolutionary.

When FM first included training modules it was revolutionary.

When FM first moved away from commentary only to 2D pitch displays it was revolutionary.

When FM first introduced press conferences it was revolutionary.

When FM first introduced 3D matches it was revolutionary.

I could go on.

The point is that FM continues to up the bar and football management sims continue to improve. CM improving steadily is a good thing for FM as they need to add new and exciting ideas, hence the 3D match engine, I suspect. The problem is that new and revolutionary ideas can not be just plonked into the game and everything works fine. They have to start somewhere. Press conferences were basic when they arrived. The 3D match display was basic. The tactical engine has had years to develop.

If SI were to come along with a revolutionary new social element to FM we may call it revolutionary and awe-inspiring but what would it do to the game?

These things need to come in stages, so get your head down Tonto and think of ways that what we have can be bettered upon. That is the best for FM. A steady improvement over the years.

Yes progress often comes in small steps. But it also comes in leaps. I am trying to explore if it is the time for a leap?

[cream147]

Personally, I think this game would get a big lift from a little bit of work on press conferences. Their should be some joking answers to certain questions, and indeed some joking questions. It would make you as the manager seem like you have more personality.

Another nice option would be to call a press conferences about certain events, for example, the signing of a player, or the sacking of a manager in the same league as you. You should also be able to call press conferences about typical moans such as heavy Christmas schedules.

Just these little changes to the press conference system would for me, go a long way to making you feel more like a manager. It wouldn't be enough, but it would be a good start.

[anagain]

Cougar, you are right. What I meant is that you can develop a player physically with a thing called training which is a few sliders and mentaly by assigning tutors. It happens, they develop, but what is your input in that?

Your input is moving those silders and/or setting new positions and new preferred moves. You judge what training a player undertakes, not a coach (unless of course you set the game to have coaches assign training). You can make any training schedule you so wish to do as well.

I do believe training can be improved upon, so input ideas and we'll see what SI can do.

Setting up a training scheme, negotiating a transfer or even watching highlights are far too time consuming for some users as shown by this forum. These people want a faster, simpler game and SI need to consider these users when programming. By adding more depth through non-football events you further alienate them.

I don't think that is the way to look at FM, Cougar. I don't think SI ever have, or ever should, refrain from a game addition on the basis that not everyone wants detail. I fully believe that SI strive to make the best and most detailed football management sim on the market. They also always strive to add alternative ways to do things so that some are not alienated, but there are other games on the market that cater to other types of player.

As examples, we now have a 3D match engine but commentary only and 2D are there for those who want it and we have press conferences but any player can let their assistant take charge of those. The difference is that I am pretty sure it has been stated that the match engine is written around the 3D match display so you'll get best benefit from using that and we all know the troubles that spring up when assistants do press conferences.

When it comes to the adding of non-football events, well that may be a different matter. I still don't think that SI need concern themselves with alienating some percentage of the player-base.

[anagain]

Yes progress often comes in small steps. But it also comes in leaps. I am trying to explore if it is the time for a leap?

I don't think that progress in FM can come in a huge leap. Adding too big an idea and too convoluted a code to FM in one go could make the game so unsteady that it would need much longer than a year to develop. When the game comes out in yearly editions then they are almost forced to take a steady approach.

As well as looking at the game from more than the one angle I have thought you do, you need to understand the logistics at play.

It's great to want more from FM, but be realistic.

[muncherdave]

This thread is the biggest waste of time since, well this thread. Whenever I think of anything being a waste of time on these forums (which isn't that often) I shall think of this thread. Four pages later where are you? Asking people about ideas for the leap of faith you suggested in the first place. If you have nothing relevant to say then say nothing at all. All I have seen here is pointless bickering that has led to nothing.

The thread title is so misleading it beggars belief. It sounds like you have something to say that could change the very nature of the game we all love and play when it does nothing of the sort. We all want to improve the overall FM experience but unless there is an actual specific idea about where it goes from here I really see no point in continuing this thread. There is brainstorming and then there is production blocking.

[robbert_o154]

I agree, muncherdave. With tak (in post #304) admitting he doesn't have a specific plan and the likes of wwfan no longer around to help him focus and shape his ideas, this thread has nowhere left to go but round and round in circles. Which is a pity, for there was a moment, towards the end of page 2, where we were really starting to get somewhere.

[Squirmy Rooter 2.0]

Setting up a training scheme, negotiating a transfer or even watching highlights are far too time consuming for some users as shown by this forum. These people want a faster, simpler game and SI need to consider these users when programming. By adding more depth through non-football events you further alienate them.

Cougar, you are right. What I meant is that you can develop a player physically with a thing called training which is a few sliders and mentaly by assigning tutors. It happens, they develop, but what is your input in that?

With regards to depth and FM being too time consuming...

The problem I have with the game is that a lot of this depth is too "mechanical", too explicit, and the user has too much what I would call "handle turning" to do - too much having to delve into menus, sub-menus, tabs, drop-down boxes, and having to tick all the right boxes etc. (Plus actually having to remember to do so).

You mentioned assigning tutors, so to take that as an example... Now SI and those of you here who have played/coached at a certain level will know better than me, but is this really something that should be so explicit and mechanical? Does the manager really take a player to one-side and say, right you specifically help this particular youngster to develop but no other players are to be influenced by you unless I explicitly say so, and vice-versa?

In my opinion, this is something that should be almost totally implicit. I should imagine that any young midfielder coming through the ranks at Old Trafford is going to view Paul Scholes as being a role-model, watch him in training, and benefit from his years of experience playing in the centre of United's midfield. But even then it wouldn't be such a straightforward one-to-one / one-to-many relationship. Younger and newer players would probably take many varied influences from other more established/experiences/revered players at the club.

If this sort of implicit "tutoring" system was in-place, the actual depth of gameplay would still be there - but it would be as a natural consequence of the players that you decide to bring-in/maintain in your squad, rather than just another one of these cases where you have to remember to go through these menus and go "right, assign you to you.... and you to you..... and um, let's have you tutor this lad here....". Instead you'd have to think more carefully about the balance and harmony of your squad and maintaining a good mixture of youth and experience, and continuity from season to season. I'd argue that this would actually provide more depth to the game, but make it less time-consuming and distracting for those that, as you say, want a simpler and faster game.

I am one of those people who consider FM to be too time-consuming. I still maintain an interest and a passion for the game, I had bought every version since CM2 and the whole series was my favorite (well, maybe second favorite ) form of recreation for more than a decade. But after playing the demos, I have not bought the last few annual releases as it is quite simply no-longer a game that I can possibly play during my lunch-hour.

The first "revolution" or "leap of faith" I'd like to see is therefore not in any new features or added compications, but to the whole interface. To make it simpler, quicker and easier to use (note: I don't mean make the game easier to win - I just mean easier to use - there is a big difference!).

So many features and details have been added over the years, but the user-interface hasn't - in my opinion - developed enough to deal with it properly. Necessary information and required user-interaction have often ended up just being tucked away in places that you might not intuitively think of looking. Plus there are too many areas where your input and the feedback from the game is vague / ambiguous / downright-misleading that as well as playing the game it is also often necessary to read these forums just to find out what some options / sentences actually mean.

Crouchaldihno accuses the original poster of being "ignorant" of what features already exist in the game. If I worked at SI, I'd spend a moments though questioning why users might be unaware of such things...

When FM first hit computers it was revolutionary.

When FM first moved away from commentary only to 2D pitch displays it was revolutionary.

From your list, I personally would only describe those two that I've included above as being "revolutionary". Maybe I'm harder to please...

[Scoham]

I have nothing against the tactics creator...in fact i believe it is the best feature added in recent years. However tactics creator and tactics system are two different things. Tactics system is the same it is just explained in understanding terms to us human managers through tactics creator.

How could it be changed for the better though? It's a game, it's got to have numbers behind the scenes somewhere. Whether they are represented as sliders, drop down boxes or something else doesn't actually make a difference.

I suppose if the sliders were hidden completely, the tactics creator would look like a completely new system, though behind the scenes it actually wouldn't be.

[tak]

This thread is the biggest waste of time since, well this thread. Whenever I think of anything being a waste of time on these forums (which isn't that often) I shall think of this thread. Four pages later where are you? Asking people about ideas for the leap of faith you suggested in the first place. If you have nothing relevant to say then say nothing at all. All I have seen here is pointless bickering that has led to nothing.

The thread title is so misleading it beggars belief. It sounds like you have something to say that could change the very nature of the game we all love and play when it does nothing of the sort. We all want to improve the overall FM experience but unless there is an actual specific idea about where it goes from here I really see no point in continuing this thread. There is brainstorming and then there is production blocking.

I am sorry that your valuable time was wasted. This is not a project I am running. If it were, you can be absolutely sure I would have formed the right team to push forward.

In this forum it will move slower but stil to the right direction.

[tak]

I agree, muncherdave. With tak (in post #304) admitting he doesn't have a specific plan and the likes of wwfan no longer around to help him focus and shape his ideas, this thread has nowhere left to go but round and round in circles. Which is a pity, for there was a moment, towards the end of page 2, where we were really starting to get somewhere.

I think the wise teacher was a hindrance rather than help. I gave him a little ego massage, didn't harm anyone.

[Tomer]

I think the wise teacher was a hindrance rather than help. I gave him a little ego massage, didn't harm anyone.

If anyone has been a hindrance....

[tak]

With regards to depth and FM being too time consuming...

The problem I have with the game is that a lot of this depth is too "mechanical", too explicit, and the user has too much what I would call "handle turning" to do - too much having to delve into menus, sub-menus, tabs, drop-down boxes, and having to tick all the right boxes etc. (Plus actually having to remember to do so).

You mentioned assigning tutors, so to take that as an example... Now SI and those of you here who have played/coached at a certain level will know better than me, but is this really something that should be so explicit and mechanical? Does the manager really take a player to one-side and say, right you specifically help this particular youngster to develop but no other players are to be influenced by you unless I explicitly say so, and vice-versa?

In my opinion, this is something that should be almost totally implicit. I should imagine that any young midfielder coming through the ranks at Old Trafford is going to view Paul Scholes as being a role-model, watch him in training, and benefit from his years of experience playing in the centre of United's midfield. But even then it wouldn't be such a straightforward one-to-one / one-to-many relationship. Younger and newer players would probably take many varied influences from other more established/experiences/revered players at the club.

If this sort of implicit "tutoring" system was in-place, the actual depth of gameplay would still be there - but it would be as a natural consequence of the players that you decide to bring-in/maintain in your squad, rather than just another one of these cases where you have to remember to go through these menus and go "right, assign you to you.... and you to you..... and um, let's have you tutor this lad here....". Instead you'd have to think more carefully about the balance and harmony of your squad and maintaining a good mixture of youth and experience, and continuity from season to season. I'd argue that this would actually provide more depth to the game, but make it less time-consuming and distracting for those that, as you say, want a simpler and faster game.

I am one of those people who consider FM to be too time-consuming. I still maintain an interest and a passion for the game, I had bought every version since CM2 and the whole series was my favorite (well, maybe second favorite ) form of recreation for more than a decade. But after playing the demos, I have not bought the last few annual releases as it is quite simply no-longer a game that I can possibly play during my lunch-hour.

The first "revolution" or "leap of faith" I'd like to see is therefore not in any new features or added compications, but to the whole interface. To make it simpler, quicker and easier to use (note: I don't mean make the game easier to win - I just mean easier to use - there is a big difference!).

So many features and details have been added over the years, but the user-interface hasn't - in my opinion - developed enough to deal with it properly. Necessary information and required user-interaction have often ended up just being tucked away in places that you might not intuitively think of looking. Plus there are too many areas where your input and the feedback from the game is vague / ambiguous / downright-misleading that as well as playing the game it is also often necessary to read these forums just to find out what some options / sentences actually mean.

Crouchaldihno accuses the original poster of being "ignorant" of what features already exist in the game. If I worked at SI, I'd spend a moments though questioning why users might be unaware of such things...

From your list, I personally would only describe those two that I've included above as being "revolutionary". Maybe I'm harder to please...

I think you are right about the tutoring. The game does not take into account that the players work together every day. It is more like they meet every weekend and only the tutor-pupil meet for dinner and a movie.

As for the complication, it comes from the "add on" mentality. Continusously adding pieces will work for a while, but then you have to re-draw a new thing from scratch.

[crouchaldinho]

I am sorry that your valuable time was wasted. This is not a project I am running. If it were, you can be absolutely sure I would have formed the right team to push forward.

In this forum it will move slower but stil to the right direction.

I think the wise teacher was a hindrance rather than help. I gave him a little ego massage, didn't harm anyone.

You really are full of yourself, aren't you Tak?

[tak]

Everyone is, my friend crouchy.

But it is good to have you back because I have a very important question. I am preparing an experiment and I would like your help. Can you tell me who is the top football tactics expert in the world that has zero practical experience managing a football team?

I am looking for the most knowledgable person in terms of football theory. Someone who has really read a lot. The best on the planet. Chances are, he is in this forum somewhere. Do you know him?

[Cougar2010]

Everyone is, my friend crouchy.

But it is good to have you back because I have a very important question. I am preparing an experiment and I would like your help. Can you tell me who is the top football tactics expert in the world that has zero practical experience managing a football team?

I am looking for the most knowledgable person in terms of football theory. Someone who has really read a lot. The best on the planet. Chances are, he is in this forum somewhere. Do you know him?

Yet again just when you seem to want a sensible discussion you resort to trolling & baiting others

I'll go back to ignoring you.

[SCIAG]

But it is good to have you back because I have a very important question. I am preparing an experiment and I would like your help. Can you tell me who is the top football tactics expert in the world that has zero practical experience managing a football team?

How can tactical knowledge be judged without seeing them in action?

[tak]

An PhD scientist on football tactics, something like that. Who hasn't actually managed. If you have his email as well, please PM me. It is not trolling, Cougar, it is an experiment.

[weeeman27bob]

An PhD scientist on football tactics, something like that. Who hasn't actually managed. If you have his email as well, please PM me. It is not trolling, Cougar, it is an experiment.

Good luck with that

[SCIAG]

A PhD in football tactics? :confused:

[HammerDaFanBois]

The new tactics system is a masterpiece in my opinion, taking the effort out of understanding the sliders and making tactics, and changing the tactical emphasis of the game. I consider it to be one of the greatest things to happen to the game in recent years.

.

In my opinion the new tactics system was vital if SI were to ever sell FM again in the future. If they had stuck with the execrable sliders it might well have killed the franchise.

It's a truism in software engineering that you often get more kudos from screwing something up and then fixing it than you'd from getting it right in the first place.

[SCIAG]

In fairness, life is like that. Football management, cooking, TV, politics. Music and books, less so. I don't know what I'm trying to prove

[robbert_o154]

An PhD scientist on football tactics, something like that. Who hasn't actually managed. If you have his email as well, please PM me. It is not trolling, Cougar, it is an experiment.

The experiment being how long you can abuse him before he leaves the thread?

[crouchaldinho]

The experiment being how long you can abuse him before he leaves the thread?

I think that's why nobody has volunteered their services so far.

[muncherdave]

This is not a project I am running.

Really? Could have fooled me. Let us move on

[tak]

Indeed munchercave.

We will of course do the experiment, but meanwhile let me mention something else. Many people have discussed how the words of the manager have an unrealisticaly big effect on players. This is beause the morale system at the moment has limited complexity, so one answer to the journalists can have a massive result.

Have you noticed how sometimes they ask you "what do you think of the goal scoring ability of your team?". Knowing the game, I knew it was a trick question. If you say "yes, but we must be careful at the back" the team stops scoring. Yesterday I tried the other one: "we will outscore everyone", although I knew what'll happen. As predicted, the team had an unbelievably bad defence.

This is of course not realistic. There are a lot cleverer answers to that question and in any case, it seems like the players only communicate with the manager by reading the papers and then have disproportionate reactions. This happens because of the limits the management simulation "features" have.

If there is an attempt to "improve" them, more questions and answers might be added but the philosophy of "one action - one result" will stay the same. Actions, talks, relationships etc. must be inserted into a more complicated and realistic engine.