Who designed the interface?

[Evon]

I wouldn't particularly give a crap about the interface if it weren't for the fact that they removed all the shortcuts. Previously there were those shortcuts to stuff like: Home, Squad, Shortlist, Player Search, Now I have to go through a couple of menus to get to those things when I need it immediately. It's incredibly frustrating especially when this interface is meant to make it easier. And this isn't something I'll get used to in time. It's something I will simmer and eventually boil over about throughout the year. Which is why I probably won't bother buying FM10. Put in the shortcuts and I might. I don't want to have to take 5 seconds everytime I want to see my shortlist. Everything else is fine from what I've seen though I don't particularly feel like the game has improved a great deal mostly because I can't actually find anything anymore.

[perpatov]

but you're welcome to email me if you want to

I might do that if you're okay with it, I have a few ideas that I think would really improve the UI. It's one thing to bash it but I actually have some constructive feedback beyond "WHY IS THIS MISALIGNED?" or "COME ON GUYS? TRANSPARENCY HERE?"

[eaglealan64]

The game is excellent but the UI is awful - a real disappointment after all the testing SI said they had done. I can't believe very many people actually think this is progress. What's wrong with a Standard UI - a set of icons for the most common things and menu's for the more complex choices, a continue button in the bottom right hand corner and away you go. Really it shouldn't be as difficult as SI make out - I would have thought the match engine would be a much more difficult thing to create.

[JAndersson]

I wouldn't particularly give a crap about the interface if it weren't for the fact that they removed all the shortcuts. Previously there were those shortcuts to stuff like: Home, Squad, Shortlist, Player Search, Now I have to go through a couple of menus to get to those things when I need it immediately. It's incredibly frustrating especially when this interface is meant to make it easier. And this isn't something I'll get used to in time. It's something I will simmer and eventually boil over about throughout the year. Which is why I probably won't bother buying FM10. Put in the shortcuts and I might. I don't want to have to take 5 seconds everytime I want to see my shortlist. Everything else is fine from what I've seen though I don't particularly feel like the game has improved a great deal mostly because I can't actually find anything anymore.

You can right click the menu bar to add the shortcuts back in

I might do that if you're okay with it, I have a few ideas that I think would really improve the UI. It's one thing to bash it but I actually have some constructive feedback beyond "WHY IS THIS MISALIGNED?" or "COME ON GUYS? TRANSPARENCY HERE?"

Feel free to email me at jesper.andersson at sigames.com, but if you us the word "fail" I will send it straight to my spam folder

[fmobande]

don't people make new interface? after the game comes out e.g skins download that users make for the FM games example . Fleck skin (user made for other users to download to their FM database and a new skin created instead of the skin that S.I made )

( i don't think what i said made sense

[perpatov]

The game is excellent but the UI is awful - a real disappointment after all the testing SI said they had done. I can't believe very many people actually think this is progress. What's wrong with a Standard UI - a set of icons for the most common things and menu's for the more complex choices, a continue button in the bottom right hand corner and away you go. Really it shouldn't be as difficult as SI make out - I would have thought the match engine would be a much more difficult thing to create.

I don't want to tread on any SI toes here, but the match engine and the UI are totally different areas of development and are two very different disciplines.

The UI team are responsible for marshalling your access to the data and arranging it in a very logical way. The 3D engine bods have to design the decals used for matchday and I'm guessing, given that the 2D engine came first, match the outputted coordinates of players and ball to their models.

The 3D match engine is definitely hard, but IMO as a UI designer I think Jesper et al. have the harder task in trying to sort the huge amount of data about each player, club and competition. That just makes it all the more frustrating when there are misaligned fonts, mind

[perpatov]

Feel free to email me at jesper.andersson at sigames.com, but if you us the word "fail" I will send it straight to my spam folder

Will do, and I promise not to

[T-IceMan]

Hmmm.... i cnt find the european coefficients.... anyone know wher they are hidden?

[perpatov]

Hmmm.... i cnt find the european coefficients.... anyone know wher they are hidden?

World -> Major Clubs -> Europe -> (Coefficients)

Edit: BTW Jesper there's a major bug on that screen where the "All" button doesn't have a rounded edge on the right. That was probably the first thing you noticed after you shipped the demo, but thought I'd mention it anyway.

[Carl]

the only bit i dont think makes sense, is the news screen, with the main story and then the 6 other stories. Takes ages to look around the screen.

[T-IceMan]

World -> Major Clubs -> Europe -> (Coefficients)

Edit: BTW Jesper there's a major bug on that screen where the "All" button doesn't have a rounded edge on the right. That was probably the first thing you noticed after you shipped the demo, but thought I'd mention it anyway.

I actually ment the nation quota (European places) but with a little logic i found those now as well.... Gotta get used to the new way to get there i guess.... .

[JAndersson]

World -> Major Clubs -> Europe -> (Coefficients)

Edit: BTW Jesper there's a major bug on that screen where the "All" button doesn't have a rounded edge on the right. That was probably the first thing you noticed after you shipped the demo, but thought I'd mention it anyway.

Yup, that's already been fixed

[Bowser_FMF]

I feel that I have to "dig" through the tabs and try to find my way around within the game. I feel lost within the game. It is possible that this is due to my familiarity with the "classic" FM skin, the sidebar skin.

I totally agree with this, I don't really like the new UI, really can't wait for a new skin. When I first played FM two years ago (08), I got used to it straightaway, its possible that I just adapt to icons quickly, they were all at the top, I didn't need to click too much. I spose its just I never really adapted to looking sideways, its much easier for me to look downwards from the sidebar. At least the bookmark thing is gone. The new UI means I have to click more. If you were to make the new UI any easier, hovering to make a drop screen would be easier. But I still like 09 better. I know it had a good feedback, but there will always be some that won't like it.

Also, why has the nickname feature for manager disappeared? I mean, sure, not many uses it (I do but I'm like the 1 in a 100), but it doesn't really waste any extra space or time just keeping that one feature from FM09 right?

[TheGulls]

Well I love the new interface, I didn't at first but unlike a lot of people I have given it time and played around with it to try and get the best from it.

I enjoy its functionality with the ability to be able to add shortcuts and customise the player screen.

The dark skin looks better than the white skin because its less of a strain on the eyes.

Well done SI for complementing what seems to be the best FM yet with a nice looking and user friendly UI.

On a side note the magnifying glass to search for something is the most logical icon to use and has been for many years by various companies, get over it and move on.

[TomDixon77]

I really hope that we can make the sidebar work properly in FM10 (there's a problem with the subscribe to new feed and add note options not being visible, but can be selected, as it is) as having just about all of the interface in the header is making it far too cluttered to make skins with.

[perpatov]

That's one of the biggest issues that I'm going to address on the website (http://sportsinteractivegripes.tumblr.com/) -- the whole interface has gone from being fairly centralised to be incredibly dispersed around the screen and hidden behind drop-downs etc.

[perpatov]

On a side note the magnifying glass to search for something is the most logical icon to use and has been for many years by various companies, get over it and move on.

Nobody was arguing that it's a popular choice, we were discussing whether it was the most appropriate choice. But I suppose now that you've weighed in with your intellectual magnificence ("get over it and move on!") we can all learn our lesson?

[bigdunk]

That's one thing I really disagree with, I used to hate the fact that in the FM09 interface, menu options were randomly scattered around the screen. We had a tree menu on the left, several toolbars across the top, we had action buttons appearing below the tree menu and in the bottom right corner of news items, it was a complete mess. Now it seems far more organised.

[perpatov]

That's one thing I really disagree with, I used to hate the fact that in the FM09 interface, menu options were randomly scattered around the screen. We had a tree menu on the left, several toolbars across the top, we had action buttons appearing below the tree menu and in the bottom right corner of news items, it was a complete mess. Now it seems far more organised.

It's good to disagree about these things I think a valid comparison in this instance is the New York Times' website (by Koi Vinh, who I would really like SI to hire as UX overlord ) Look at their left hand bar. There's just a HUGE list of all the areas of the site. Once you get used to using that it's very easy to use. I think the same thing used to be the case with FM.

A major problem that I don't think Jesper & Co. have considered is that studies indicate horizontal navigation (i.e. going lengthways across your monitor, not down it) is a lot less comfortable to navigate than vertical if you're using a mouse or a trackpad (and not, like, the power of thought or something.)

Hopefully they can clean it up considerably in the future.

[TomDixon77]

It's good to disagree about these things I think a valid comparison in this instance is the New York Times' website (by Koi Vinh, who I would really like SI to hire as UX overlord ) Look at their left hand bar. There's just a HUGE list of all the areas of the site. Once you get used to using that it's very easy to use. I think the same thing used to be the case with FM.

A major problem that I don't think Jesper & Co. have considered is that studies indicate horizontal navigation (i.e. going lengthways across your monitor, not down it) is a lot less comfortable to navigate than vertical if you're using a mouse or a trackpad (and not, like, the power of thought or something.)

Hopefully they can clean it up considerably in the future.

Especially if you have a widescreen monitor. I'm not sure how having a considerably larger header helps those of us with widescreen monitors out (which I've seen mentioned) as you have less vertical space to play with, but more horizontal, so why shrink what we're short of?

Also, it makes logos look rubbish and tiny.

[perpatov]

Especially if you have a widescreen monitor. I'm not sure how having a considerably larger header helps those of us with widescreen monitors out (which I've seen mentioned) as you have less vertical space to play with, but more horizontal, so why shrink what we're short of?

Also, it makes logos look rubbish and tiny.

Another point I hadn't thought of I have a 1920x1280 MacBook Pro, so it's a real problem for me.

[perpatov]

With each screen comes fresh terror. I like how Jesper said that they deliberately made the menu at the bottom of the screen look like it wasn't active because it was for power users. That makes sense...

Anyway, here's my favourite oversight so far: there's no indication that the window is resizable in the corner. I've blogged it here: http://sportsinteractivegripes.tumblr.com/post/215890831/the-good-news-fm-2010-is-better-than-any-previous

There are now approaching 25 posts on the blog. I'm going to do a few more tomorrow about Bitstream, the font SI use, and incorporate some of the great suggestions in this thread. I hope SI continue to read it, and to take it in the spirit in which it's intended (MOCK OUTRAGE GUYS.)

*yawn*

[ldktalin]

Oh silly me, this thread existed all along.

I see you already covered the points I made in the other one, good initiative on the website really.

[Ackter]

To be honest perpatov - you really need to sort out the tone used on that website. Any points you make will be horribly undermined if all the posts read like that one.

Regardless of how it's intended, that's what'll happen.

[ldktalin]

That's actually a good point.

This way it's kind of like corecting somebody elses speling.

[NeilUK]

I like the new skin. I am a little bit worried I won't be able to use my old FM09 player pictures, though.

They work fine, in fact I think they look better in FM10 than they did in FM09, they just seem to fit

As for the original poster who said he couldn't see the subscriptions , its the next box to the inbox and will have an icon it when there is new news! How much more visible can it be? Its right next to the inbox

[perpatov]

To be honest perpatov - you really need to sort out the tone used on that website. Any points you make will be horribly undermined if all the posts read like that one.

Regardless of how it's intended, that's what'll happen.

To be honest Ackter - that's not how em-dashes work.

I'll continue to be disparaging towards basic UI mistakes in a piece of shipping software, and Jesper & Co. will continue to be free to ignore the site if they like.

It's - pretty simple really.

[Ackter]

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised at all if he ignores you considering it's quite obvious you're just an arrogant arse with a serious superiority complex. Get over yourself.

[NeilUK]

To be honest Ackter - that's not how em-dashes work.

I'll continue to be disparaging towards basic UI mistakes in a piece of shipping software, and Jesper & Co. will continue to be free to ignore the site if they like.

It's - pretty simple really.

Its the language thats the problem , I'm sure that is what Ackter is referring to, it will be hard for people to take your points seriously given the language as they won't take the author seriously. Also SI will not be happy that you have linked to a blog featuring that type of language from their Forums. This place is visited by people under the age of 18 after all!

[Ackter]

If he actually tried being constructive (and it's pretty clear from his attitude and refusal to post bugs forum entries that he really has no intention of) then you'd have to admit he has some points, even if they're all incredibly minor ones.

[perpatov]

Its the language thats the problem , I'm sure that is what Ackter is referring to, it will be hard for people to take your points seriously given the language as they won't take the author seriously. Also SI will not be happy that you have linked to a blog featuring that type of language from their Forums. This place is visited by people under the age of 18 after all!

The thing Ackter is hilariously missing is that it's an in-joke for UX designers. I am not offering Jesper any advice on how to do better UI design; he knows how to design UI, he's limited by time as everyone is.

There's a website called Adobe Gripes which details all the horrible UI mistakes in Adobe's products. It's linked in the menu bar from my site. It's also the basis for one of the more recent posts: http://adobegripes.tumblr.com/post/194149642/cs4-expandable-window-ui-fail

Jesper has already picked up that the style of the site is a deliberate homage to that. Of course you weren't to know that, but there seemed little point spelling it out to a fawning gristlehead like this Ackster fellow. The style is an in-joke. Relax. Jasper has been a good egg about it, and he knows I'm not stupid enough to offer any advice on that page or in that style. That's why I'm emailing him a few brief ideas about the future direction of the UI. That will be my advice, and he is more than capable of ignoring that by himself, without the fawning SI zealots coming on here to defend him from a website that has a few naughty words on it.

As I say, you weren't to know about the Adobe Gripes joke, so I'm not having a dig at you

[Ackter]

See above about being an arrogant arse.

[perpatov]

If he actually tried being constructive (and it's pretty clear from his attitude and refusal to post bugs forum entries that he really has no intention of) then you'd have to admit he has some points, even if they're all incredibly minor ones.

It's difficult to tell if you're some sort of very specific kind of troll who only targets designers, but I'll assume your innocence in the matter: there is no such thing as a minor problem with the user interface of an application to the SI UI team. Take my word for it.

The reason, say, Ubuntu and Snow Leopard are miles apart in terms of quality of design is because there are a lot of little things wrong with Ubuntu that add up. That's the same thing with FM.

I have no intention of posting "bugs forum entries" because these aren't those sorts of bugs. These are little attention-to-detail things. A stray pixel here, over-aggressive anti-aliasing there. I know this was a long post for you to read, so if you take one thing away from it, let it be that there is no such thing as a minor problem with a user interface. A problem is a problem.

Edit: And re: being an 'arrogant arse', I think you'd be better off describing me as a haughty curmudgeon. But then, an arrogant arse / haughty curmudgeon would say that, wouldn't he?

[Ackter]

Speaking from an actual games industry point of view, there's is definitly such a thing as minor problems and I'm glad SI have prioritised other things over the handful of tiny issues that you've highlighted.

Now let's see if you're actually able to counter a point without fitting a petty insult in there somewhere, shall we?

[perpatov]

Speaking from an actual games industry point of view, there's is definitly such a thing as minor problems and I'm glad SI have prioritised other things over the handful of tiny issues that you've highlighted.

Now let's see if you're actually able to counter a point without fitting a petty insult in there somewhere, shall we?

I'm afraid I'm quite convinced of two things, chum: firstly that, churlish though it seems to point it out, you've been bandying around insults like there's no tomorrow. And secondly that your spelling makes it almost impossible to avoid insulting you Nonetheless I'll stride on into this abyss of ignorance and try to remediate for you. Pay close attention.

I'm thrilled that you're speaking "from an actual games industry point of view", because that has no bearing whatsoever on my point, which was that to an interface designer, there usually isn't any difference between a small problem and a big problem. They want to fix all the problems.

What you think I mean is that if the game crashed upon loading it would be paid the same attention as the misalignment of the club logos. You misunderstand me, and I'd encourage you to read the post again with greater care. But it could be all my mistake! We might not be in a thread dedicated to the user interface after all.

[Ackter]

Of course they want to fix all problems, but the reality of the games industry is that you can't.

A link that takes you to the wrong place is a big problem. The search bar having a magnifying glass isn't a problem at all.

You really think they're the same thing?

I'm pretty sure Jesper has (and I know Ter has) had to deal with a lot of UI bugs from me in the past, including those of the 1 pixel alignment variety. Difference being I presented them in a constructive way.

And with that, I'm out. Hell, I used to be arrogant, but even at my worst I was never half as bad as you are.

[ldktalin]

Sorry, didn't see Andersson's post above, so I may have duplicated some points since (in that other thread especially). These forums move way too fast.

Anyhow.

Again, most of the feedback has actually been positive this year.

Thanks for replying.

As for feedback, it largely depends on your method of collecting it. Internal testing and community feedback isn't the be-all end-all of what the end users think about it on average. Either way, many of the things I find problematic in the GUI can actually be argumented, and many that fall in the exact science department, or near enough.

This is a feature that will no doubt see further development in the future that will make it very useful. I agree that it doesn't live up to it's full potential at the moment though.

Since it doesn't really provide much (any) service to the actual players as it is, then why is it there in the first place? Unless by "future" you mean the full release due in a few weeks (we only have the demo right now, of course).

True, but contrary to your installer example FM isn't the type of game where every page is read top left to bottom right, so the users attention (or mouse cursor) rarely ends up in the bottom right corner except for when there are "forms" where the user has to interact with the page (which is why the confirm and cancel buttons are in that location).

Most pages visited during a typical "turn" are, though. Reading inbox messages is probably the most common activity before continuing. A lot of the time the player will only read the inbox messages and Continue straight away. Clearly your attention would be at the bottom after reading the last message that interests you.

The "handling" of various messages (such as going to press conferences, registering players) is done in a separate, full screen - as you said, with final confirmation buttons again on the bottom. Yet back in the message screen, the message is also often updated with your response or the effects of your response at the bottom (player being happy about what you said to the media, the list of players you picked, etc).

Moreover, "Continue" button is just another sort of an input confirmation button - the player declares that he has completed his input for the given day/turn, and instructs the game to proceed. So it should also follow the logic of other buttons of the sort. The buttons that want to say something along the lines of "OK", "I'm done", "Proceed" are regularly placed bottom, aligned to the right.

Unlike navigation and view buttons, like Back/Forward, which are placed correctly on the top (just like they are in any half-decent browser).

The problem with icons as the main navigation is that you don't know which icon means what until you hover over it to read the tool-tip. Text is much clearer, and the use of drop-downs allows us to to group them in a way that makes the concept of "sections" a little bit clearer.

I partially agree on the icons thing.

However, icon bars are so common in software today that people intuitively accept that they need to learn the layout, and it's rarely an issue. New, unknown icons are found in each new piece of software people try. More importantly, they're omnipresent in games. Worrying about icons so much that you would let so many usability issues slip just to avoid them - and then making the whole bar customizable, with users having to manually add the icons you removed in the first place (as it's the only way to get fixed instant access to a key screen) - it strikes me as an odd decision, to say the least.

With that said, I'll say I do like the design of the actual manager bar - with text tabs rather than icons. Except it has all the wrong features for a bar that dominates the screen. And this, I have to say, is a plain mistake. It should never, happen that the key features are categorized under a smaller drop-down menu, in a smaller bar, whereas features completely irrelevant and detached from active gameplay are granted a big fat text tab in the dominating control bar on the screen. There simply isn't a valid reason for that, it should just not happen. Ever.

I do understand the game design point of player being the manager, rather than the club he manages, but I don't see why the interface had to suffer so much (and it has) to get that trivial point across. At the end of the day, the player just wants to do his job as a manager of the club - that's FM's actual gameplay. Interface exist to make it easier for him to play, not more difficult.

And it's a raw fact it's been made more difficult - just count the extra clicks, mouse moves and visual perception required to reach club management screen(s), as opposed to a single, thoughtless click on a tab you can't miss that's needed to reach any of the 3-4 completely irrelevant features on the manager bar. Ironically, it's (much) easier to reach a list of well-known players you can sign, than the list of your own players, ie the club you want to sign them for.

[Ackter]

Just discovered an annoyance with the customisable bar - the game doesn't remember when you remove the help shortcut.

It remembers all other changes.

[TheStoneMonkey]

I don't know why SI haven't developed some kind of mind/keyboard interfacing device whereby I don't have to even click buttons at all? Why should I spend all my time with this "clicking" nonsense, when I can simply think things and have them miraculously appear on screen.

PS, Why can't FM10 make my tea?

[revobean]

Maybe i'm the odd one out here but I love both the new UI and the original white skin i the demo.

[edwingray]

Have to admit that I'm having difficulty getting to grips with the new layout. I think Ackter wrote that he finds it intuitive, at the moment I would have to disagree. I find myself having to look for things too much. I also find that the light skin gives me headache after a while and the dark skin isn't very appealing.

On saying this though, it needs to be pointed out that I haven't had that much time to sit down and play the demo for any great length of time. I guess with everything new, it's just a question of time.

[bigdunk]

Re the continue button being top right, yes idktalin etc are right in that you read top to bottom and so in theory it should be bottom right, but the big problem with that is with the navigation buttons being on the top, you would have a continual stream of moving your mouse from the top to the bottom of the screen and back again. If (as has been suggested in here), most game days people just read the news and then continue, every day would consist of clicking on the news icon, moving the mouse to the bottom of the screen to continue, moving the mouse back up to click on the news icon and so on. It might be more logical the other way, but it's easier to use this way.

[schuey100]

Now let's see if you're actually able to counter a point without fitting a petty insult in there somewhere, shall we?

To be fair you're the one that started with the pettiness calling his ideas pointless and nitpicking but I think he's right where you missed the point about the Adobe Guy, it's all meant in jest but at the same time there's some good constructive feedback. I think you just overreacted without fully understanding the context of the discussion but that 's okay.

As for the tumblr site/blog, I like it, it's very good (amuses me too) and no doubt SI have read it and had a giggle whilst taking onboard some of the ideas.

[Evon]

You can right click the menu bar to add the shortcuts back in

You rule. You do.

[AcidBurn]

Can we get the FM09 skin if we don't have steam?

[Grue]

There are really some really strange things in this new interface. Strange, as in, why the hell would anyone think it's a good idea?

Why are player ratings in a match hidden deep in a submenu?

Why is player's form hidden deep in a submenu?

Why, when there is a news story in "Other stories" and it doesn't fully fit, there is no way to read the rest of it other than *hovering mouse over it and reading the tooltip*?! How about, you know, clicking on it, and it appears in the top left scrollable panel? Doesn't work!

Why there is no option in Screen Flow to show the competition *before and after any matches in that competition*, instead of "every day" or "every week"???

Why do some news items that mention a match between two teams don't actually include the score or a link to that match? For example I have a news item right now about a player who scored 4 goals in the match between Lazio and Lech. No mention of the final score, or any link to said match. And many of the news items suffer from this problem.

These are only some of the examples. The interface doesn't really look well thought out this time around.

[Nomoi]

- Not a big thing but annoying; After the match to be able to see the player ratings you have to make 2 clicks, in the earlier versions it was one click.

- Continue button location

- In the player screen why you don't combine transfer & contract pages. They are linked to each other and there is enough space for them to be at the same page. The aim is to save clicks here, right?

- I don't know if anyone faced (and I had one or two times) but when I tried to make player search and when I created a new search criteria, the whole information about the player have gone and only the player prices could be viewed and all the players seemed as Algerians. When I clicked on the Algeria flag (national team) and clicked back, it returned to normal. The same thing happened one time as well when I was looking for a new scout. The search thing has bugs...?

[perpatov]

- in the player screen why you don't combine transfer & contract pages. They are linked to each other and there is enough space for them to be at the same page. The aim is to save clicks here, right?

^^^^ this ^^^^

[iLLs]

Default size fonts seems too small for me at 1680x1050 screen resolution! SI could create two types of skins normal (current) and high (with larger icons and fonts). For now, the screen is too empty (for my rez).

[Blanchflower1]

I like the new interface!!