Rational explanation?

Is there any rational explanation?

Teams start playing more defensive? Ok that would be a reason why to be scoring less but no a reason why to be conceeding absolutely like crazy.

Any explanation?

In your last 14 matches you have conceded 15 goals. In the previous 14 matches you conceded 14 goals, so you haven't started conceding like absolute crazy - it just feels that way.

However, in the same two periods, you scored 12 goals compared to 17 in the previous 14 matches.

You've already identified teams may be playing more defensively, so that may be your starting point.

In your last 14 matches you have conceded 15 goals. In the previous 14 matches you conceded 14 goals, so you haven't started conceding like absolute crazy - it just feels that way.

However, in the same two periods, you scored 12 goals compared to 17 in the previous 14 matches.

You've already identified teams may be playing more defensively, so that may be your starting point.

In last 9 matches I conceeded 9 goals and scored 9 (disregarding match against Villareal, that was an accident) with 3 clean sheets.

Previous 8 matches I conceeded 4 and scored 6 (disregarding matchs againts Barcelona and Oviedo), with 5 clean sheets.

The problem is obviously the defense.

Last 10 games 18 goals conceeded 6 scored. 1 clean sheet.

Against the same teams, the first time we played, 5 conceeded 6 goals scored. 7 clean sheets

It's obvius the problem is the defense. It is imposible to deny it.

Anyway, assuming that the world is upside down and i'm conceeding more because the opponent plays more defensive, what am i supposed to do?

And, why it happens after 3 seasons of consistent success?

After losing 7 of the last 10 games, opponent will play defensive? Will they stop playing defensive? If the reason of my sudden bad results is that the opponent plays more defensive, if they stop playing that defensive my results will come back to normal?

So if the problem is the defence what have you done about it?

You need to work out if you were just unlucky or whether you could have made better tactical choices.

You also need to consider how your team are reacting, are they complacent? Could your team talks be better?

It's perfectly plausible to concede more goals (and score less) if your opponent plays in a more defensive manner. Counter attacking sides do it all the time.

If your opponents are sitting deeper, perhaps your team are over committing themselves forwards and therefore leaving space in dangerous areas which your opponents are taking advantage of?

This is of course all theory and guess work as nobody has any idea of how you are playing, or how your opponents are playing, or how you are conceding, except you.

If you would like specific help, please have a read though the relevant sticky and provide detailed information to help us help you http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/327822-Asking-For-Help-PLEASE-READ-THIS.

It's perfectly plausible to concede more goals (and score less) if your opponent plays in a more defensive manner. Counter attacking sides do it all the time.

If your opponents are sitting deeper, perhaps your team are over committing themselves forwards and therefore leaving space in dangerous areas which your opponents are taking advantage of?

This is of course all theory and guess work as nobody has any idea of how you are playing, or how your opponents are playing, or how you are conceding, except you.

If you would like specific help, please have a read though the relevant sticky and provide detailed information to help us help you http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/327822-Asking-For-Help-PLEASE-READ-THIS.

Opponents create more or less (even less i'd say) chances than before. 3 shots 2 goals. First 10 mins every match conceeding 1 goal. I would say the problem is the gk but i've already changed it and the same. So it is not. Maybe i was lucky in the previous games...

Before I post anything (more details I mean), in general terms we assume that if you play well opponents will start to play more defensive. If they do that, what should i do? How i am expected to react? A general idea I mean. What should I avoid (TI, PI...)?

Of course, assuming that i'm conceending more because opponents are playing more defensive, which is something that i don't think is happening... In fact, it is not happening. I've watched 2 games full match, and no: they are not sitting deep, they are not counterattacking. They just cross and goal. Before my players started to do stupid things, they cleared that crosses and my gk was making saves.

So, oppponents playing more defensive is not the problem. If it is not the problem, what is? Why, after 2 seasons with a rock solid defense, i start conceeding like crazy? Last 15 games, 25 goals conceeded 2 clean sheets.

I have to do something about that. Otherwise, i'm going to be sacked next season.

No idea what to do.

Pi:

gk roll it out

cd-de close down less

dlf-su hold position

Perhaos you could try to stop the crosses at source?

On my own save at the moment, I always man mark any wingers so any ML/MR/AML/AMR

It's still not perfect but seems to be making a little bit of difference.

Why it was not happening before? Does that mean that if the opponent plays more defensive you must manmark wingers?

It makes no sense, but well, fm makes no sense for me. How is possible that the more defensive the opponent plays the more goals you conceed? It would be ok, if after playing well some games, opponents start to play more defensive so you struggle to score and lose some games 0-1. But it makes no sense to conceed a goal in every game in the first 10 minutes, and conceeding an average of 2 goals per game, if you have a rock solid defense as I used to have.

How is that possible? How can you explain this? Is there any connection with real life?

Anyway, assuming that fm is like this and we can't change it, my concret question is: if the opponent plays more defensive, how am i expected to play? More attacking? More defensive? More patient? What would you exactly do? Change what? Pay attention to what?

Why it was not happening before? Does that mean that if the opponent plays more defensive you must manmark wingers?

It makes no sense, but well, fm makes no sense for me. How is possible that the more defensive the opponent plays the more goals you conceed? It would be ok, if after playing well some games, opponents start to play more defensive so you struggle to score and lose some games 0-1. But it makes no sense to conceed a goal in every game in the first 10 minutes, and conceeding an average of 2 goals per game, if you have a rock solid defense as I used to have.

How is that possible? How can you explain this? Is there any connection with real life?

Anyway, assuming that fm is like this and we can't change it, my concret question is: if the opponent plays more defensive, how am i expected to play? More attacking? More defensive? More patient? What would you exactly do? Change what? Pay attention to what?

After winning the league with Newcastle in my second season, I'm having the very same problem more teams playing more defensively making it very hard to score. So I went from playing with a lower tempo TI to playing more direct passing. My idea behind this was move the ball around quicker instead of at a slower place, unsettling the opposition instead of my players patiently passing it around waiting for an opening which against a team which are already sitting deep and compact more then likely wont come.

After winning the league with Newcastle in my second season, I'm having the very same problem more teams playing more defensively making it very hard to score. So I went from playing with a lower tempo TI to playing more direct passing. My idea behind this was move the ball around quicker instead of at a slower place, unsettling the opposition instead of my players patiently passing it around waiting for an opening which against a team which are already sitting deep and compact more then likely wont come.

In real football, I would do the same than you but...

In a previous thread, I explained that i was experiencing the same problem. In fact, the title of the thread was 20 games... I was told my tactic was too direct and that against packed defense it's not a good idea to play direct passing.

It would be nice if someone could clarify this point. When you are playing against a packed defense, the best idea is to play....?

However, I must say that i don't have problems scoring. I mean i'm scoring the same (or even more). My only problem is that i start conceeding absolutely like crazy. First 10 mins already losing in every match (almost). And i'm not conceeding from counters. My defense is packed they cross an goal. Corner kick goal. Long shot goal. one-two and goal. It's not losing the ball and fast transition. I conceed in positional defense.

In a previous thread, I explained that i was experiencing the same problem. In fact, the title of the thread was 20 games... I was told my tactic was too direct and that against packed defense it's not a good idea to play direct passing.

Now I know you're referring to me here and here's what I said:

- Counter Mentality already has fairly direct passing at the back (to ease pressure) with fairly short passing up front to keep the ball away from the danger area and keep possession.

- With that in mind, you have increased directness with More Direct Passing

- In addition to that, you've gone to an extreme end of the scale, by asking the defensive players to have the maximum possible directness and to focus toward clearing it to the flanks - plural - where you only really have 1 flank player possibly available to receive a clearance. This TI will definitely be a big reason for the poor performances.

I've said this at least twice - your tactic is unbelievably direct. Teams will start sitting back more against a very successful team, so when you meet them again, you might have issues.

You're very, very direct. You're getting the ball forward so fast, that you're basically attacking with 2 or 3 players against 6-9 players. That's never going to work.

There's a difference between being direct and being as extreme as what you are.

You weren't just "direct". You were "hoof-the-ball-upfield-direct".

Why it was not happening before? Does that mean that if the opponent plays more defensive you must manmark wingers?

It makes no sense, but well, fm makes no sense for me. How is possible that the more defensive the opponent plays the more goals you conceed? It would be ok, if after playing well some games, opponents start to play more defensive so you struggle to score and lose some games 0-1. But it makes no sense to conceed a goal in every game in the first 10 minutes, and conceeding an average of 2 goals per game, if you have a rock solid defense as I used to have.

How is that possible? How can you explain this? Is there any connection with real life?

Anyway, assuming that fm is like this and we can't change it, my concret question is: if the opponent plays more defensive, how am i expected to play? More attacking? More defensive? More patient? What would you exactly do? Change what? Pay attention to what?

Just trying to help pal, don't bite the hand that feeds.

Just telling you what I do as I saw I was conceding a lot from crosses.

Leemod: that was not my intention. I know sometimes what i write sounds aggressive but that's caused by my bad english. Sorry anyway.

Hunter: Yes. That's exactly what i said. You also said "let me ask this, why do you say direct passing is the best way to play against a packed defence? The defence is packed, so how does direct passing get through that?"

From that sentence i understand that against a packed defense you must not play direct passing. Is that true?

There are several different ways of playing against a packed defence, which may or may not be suitable for your own team. Indeed you may even find that something that works for you on one occasion may not work for you against a different team. So you may need to experiment.

- A simple substitution may be all that is required. Bringing on a fresh and pacey winger (for example) against a tiring opposition fullback may give you that extra boost needed. Likewise a more creative type of player can also work - someone who has ability to find that final pass to unlock a stubborn defence.

- Changing a player role or duty can work. Perhaps a subtle change to make somebody more creative or to give someone the ability to hold the ball up a little until help arrives. You could even use this method in conjunction with a substitution as mentioned above.

- Altering Team Shape to become more Fluid may help. This would add greater creative freedom to all of your players, so aiding that extra flair you may need to finally break through the wall.

- Changing mentality to become more attacking overall might work. This can up the tempo and thrust of your attacks, potentially catching the opposition defence unbalanced. If you do this you may need to be careful about counter attacks by the opposition, so you might need to drop your defensive line (for example) a little lower at the same time.

- Changing mentality to become more defensive may also work. In a more defensive mentality your team will sit deeper. This may help to draw the opposition out of their deep positions, giving you the space you need in attack.

You could even try combining one or more of these tactics if you think that one isn't enough.

These are just the methods that immediately spring to mind. Other people may be able to add other ideas.

Looping,

A team has decided to play defensively, what are the options you have to open them up? Lets think things through, and use some real life examples.

Euro 2016 Spain vs Czech Rep.

The Czechs decided that they were no match for Spain, so they opted to stick everyone behind the ball. In hopes that they could walk away with a point. Hopefully they could strike them off the counter. What did Spain do?

Spain became patient, they played short passing, low risk percentage passes from the back to midfield. Only in the final third was there anything looking like a through ball. There wasn't one direct pass from defence. Czech Rep had camped, so the Spaniards camped in their half and passed the ball around. Towards the 70th min they started looking more fluid, they had more intelligent off the ball runs. You could see Nolito dragging players one way and other forward players were trying to drag other players the other way.

Spain eventually broke through.

What is direct passing. Its fast tempo, quick passes to a specific target over some distance between short -medium. This is passing meant to quickly move play from one area of the pitch to the other. What do you need for this to happen, your team can't be camping.

What is the defensive mentality? Its no risk football, every pass must count, every shot must count.

What is attacking mentality? Its risky football, I am going to try to win the game with a 50-50 pass or I will take a 50-50 shot.

So if a team is playing defensively, they are sitting back right? They don't want to come out. You have a lot of options:

Camp in their half and make sure I drill that box with crosses from both sides till their defenders don't know which side is which and then score.

Don't camp in their half, make some space, and force them to step up, and then score behind their lines.

So many ways to play. You are still thinking in terms of unlocking defences by throwing players forward.

So if a team is playing defensively, they are sitting back right? They don't want to come out. You have a lot of options:

Camp in their half and make sure I drill that box with crosses from both sides till their defenders don't know which side is which and then score.

Don't camp in their half, make some space, and force them to step up, and then score behind their lines.

So many ways to play. You are still thinking in terms of unlocking defences by throwing players forward.

Ok I understand the idea, but how would you implement this? TI of 'Hit Early Crosses' or change the role of your wide players? Yes lots of ways to play how to reflect these are where the majority are getting confused.

It's going to depend on the type of players you have. Are your wide players quick and direct? Are your outside backs any good going forward? Are your midfielders powerhouses or maestros? Can your strikers go it alone or do they need excellent service?

Once you know the pieces at your disposal you can figure out the best way to put them together.

"So many ways to play. You are still thinking in terms of unlocking defences by throwing players forward."

Could you be so nice to explain this sentence in order words? I don't understand it.

Anyway, my problem is not that the opponents are sitting deep. I'm losing almost every game, soon i'll be sacked so this "opponents sittin back" theory is not what i am experiecing. Is there any other reason why a tactic stops working? Is there any other reason why, suddenly, i start conceeding like crazy? I'm scoring more, much more than before. And conceeding more, much more, like crazy. It's not a defensive opponent patern. They are not countering.

Believe me, opponents are not sitting deep. There must be another explanation.

In fact, when i play against a weaker team i destroy them. They score 1 or 2 goals but i usually manage to score 3

Leemod: that was not my intention. I know sometimes what i write sounds aggressive but that's caused by my bad english. Sorry anyway.

Hunter: Yes. That's exactly what i said. You also said "let me ask this, why do you say direct passing is the best way to play against a packed defence? The defence is packed, so how does direct passing get through that?"

From that sentence i understand that against a packed defense you must not play direct passing. Is that true?

No worries

my concret question is: if the opponent plays more defensive, how am i expected to play? More attacking? More defensive? More patient? What would you exactly do? Change what? Pay attention to what?

"So many ways to play. You are still thinking in terms of unlocking defences by throwing players forward."

Could you be so nice to explain this sentence in order words? I don't understand it.

Anyway, my problem is not that the opponents are sitting deep. I'm losing almost every game, soon i'll be sacked so this "opponents sittin back" theory is not what i am experiecing. Is there any other reason why a tactic stops working? Is there any other reason why, suddenly, i start conceeding like crazy? I'm scoring more, much more than before. And conceeding more, much more, like crazy. It's not a defensive opponent patern. They are not countering.

Believe me, opponents are not sitting deep. There must be another explanation.

In fact, when i play against a weaker team i destroy them. They score 1 or 2 goals but i usually manage to score 3

C'mon Looping, help us out here. You start a fairly lengthy discussion with your "concrete" question about how to play against defensive teams and then dismiss all of that by telling us teams don't play defensively against you and ask what should you do now instead.

It's very frustrating and I for one feel like I've completely wasted my time now. Perhaps that's just me.

People want to help you Looping, I want to help you. Please try to stay focused.

C'mon Looping, help us out here. You start a fairly lengthy discussion with your "concrete" question about how to play against defensive teams and then dismiss all of that by telling us teams don't play defensively against you and ask what should you do now instead.

It's very frustrating and I for one feel like I've completely wasted my time now. Perhaps that's just me.

People want to help you Looping, I want to help you. Please try to stay focused.

It wasn't me who said that my problem (probably) was the opponent playing more defensive and that was plausible to conceed more (and score less) for that reason. I just followed the discussion assuming that (take a look at post 8#).

I don't see opponent playing more defensive, but that doesn't mean that they are not playing more defensive. Maybe i'm wrong. Remember how difficult for me is to identify anything during a match.

Assuming that i'm wrong i made that concrete question and i received a lot of answers with a lot of information and i'm really appreciate it but i must say it is totally useless. I still don't know what to do because i don't understand your answers (post #21) or you give me so many alternatives that i have no idea what to try. And i can't try everything because i don't have enough time (i'll be sacked before).

I want to find a rational explanation why, suddenly, i start conceeding like crazy. If it is not caused by opponent counterattacking me, is there any other posible cause?

I want to find a rational explanation why, suddenly, i start conceeding like crazy. If it is not caused by opponent counterattacking me, is there any other posible cause?

The thing is nobody will be able to tell you, considering we know nothing but the results.

A good starting point would be to have a look at the last ten or so games and try to figure out what's going on. First check the match stats: check posession, shots, shots on target for your team and the opponents .. any patterns? Also check tackles, crosses, long shots ... anything stick out?

Next start digging into the analysis tab/prozone - start checking where your and your opponents shots are coming from. What does it look like? Check the average positions of the players - are you deep or are they deep?

Doing this for the last games should give you an idea what's going on. Feel free to take some screenshots and post them (stats or prozone).

Looping, you can generally tell if a team is sitting defensively by looking at how far forward their centerbacks push up (and sometimes the fullbacks if they are defense duty). If they get up into your half, that is a sign they are playing more attacking. If they hover around the center line, then probably a more neutral mentality, and if they stay in their half, then defensive. This isn't a hard and fast rule, but it is a starting point.

Do your players have any PPMs of note? I'm particularly thinking about Gets Forward Whenever Possible. It'll change the balance of a tactic and can make a tactic a lot more attacking (throwing people forward) that you intended it to be.

As expected, i've been finally sacked. last 12 games 12 lost. 17 scored 28 conceeded.

rumpel: I've checked out all you say but I don't understand how you get any info from that. Shoots coming from everywhere: inside the box, outside the box, flanks, middle.. I can't identify any pattern.

Hook: centerbacks are always around the center line.

Hunt3r: my players have no PPM that can disrupt anything. For instance, my cm-de has "stays back all the time", which is exactly what he has to do.

Before being sacked, i started changing things. I changed mentality to counter. No result. Changed to defensive. Even worse. Changed to control. Even worse. back to standard.

I set more short passing. Nothing.

Bla bla bla. Sacked.

Here the problem is that i don't know why my tactic was working (i found it quite randomly) and i don't know why stopped working.

I think tactics are overpowered. There is no reason why results have to dramatically change.

I started a new save.

After 6 months, i have reached a conclusion. Sorry for FM developers but mentalities are absolutely wrong and broken and that is one of the things thatare disrupting me.

If you go to mentalities and read the description they are absolutely wrong. I was relying on that description which misleads anybody who reads it.

In fm Control doesn't mean patiently move the ball around the park and Counter doesn't mean get the ball forward quickly. It's the opposite.

Assuming that, i will play the game only with standard mentality.

What i'm trying now is learn how to attack a packed defense. In your words, "Camp in their half and make sure I drill that box with crosses from both sides till their defenders don't know which side is which and then score."

To do that we need possession. And possession requires space and movement. We also need crosses.

Possession: Retain possession. Dlp-de to help to retain it.

Creativity: fluid

Space: dropped defense and wide

movement: I can't imagine any other combination of roles and duties that can provide more movement.

Crosses: fb

According to that and before i try, do you see anything specially wrong in this tactic?

If you wish to understand the principles of possession football, there is an excellent article called The Art of Possession Football linked in the sticky "How to Build a New Tactic" at the top of this forum.

I agree the Control mentality tooltip could use a re-write. This forum goes someway to rectify this, as noted in all relevant posts, but unfortunately not everyone will see this. It has been raised with SI.

If you wish to understand the principles of possession football, there is an excellent article called The Art of Possession Football linked in the sticky "How to Build a New Tactic" at the top of this forum.

I agree the Control mentality tooltip could use a re-write. This forum goes someway to rectify this, as noted in all relevant posts, but unfortunately not everyone will see this. It has been raised with SI.

I've read that post like 100 times and my tactic is supposed to be based on it. So, again the same question? Did I understand well that thread? What is absolutely wrong in my tactic? I've already tried it and i only lose, so there must be something extremely wrong.

When you want to attack a camped defence, you need a highly mobile offence

When you want to attack a camped defence, you need a highly mobile offence

To do that we need possession. And possession requires space and movement. We also need crosses.

Possession: Retain possession. Dlp-de to help to retain it.

Creativity: fluid

Space: dropped defense and wide

movement: I can't imagine any other combination of roles and duties that can provide more movement.

Crosses: fb

My question is: What is absolutely wrong in my tactic?

POST 30

When you want to attack a camped defence, you need a highly mobile offence

Ok, so what would be the best course of action? a role change to attacking or TI of 'Roam More' so many possibilities..

Lets break things down...he's playing with 2 IFs, a lone DLP..thats hardly mobile. Against a defence thats got a dm he will run into a roadblock. The moment they go defensive he will see walls. And on top of that he has gone fluid.

When you set up a tactic think about how the players are going to move. When you have a lone forward, it becomes even more challenging. And what does Retain Possession do to your "attacking style of play"?? Remember he's combined fluid with retain possession. ionHe's said this to his players with that instruct "I want my players to be creative and i don't want them to play through balls, and I want them close to each other". Drop Retain or drop fluid.

The best course of action would be to look at the system and ask one fundamental question? Why is everyone running to the middle for, against a stacked defence?

Inside forwards are great to have..but what are you doing to give them more space to make those runs?

There is a lot of thinking behind, maybe wrong, but a lot of thinking.

First of all, i want possession. Possession needs retain possession, maybe not this TI specifically, but needs a retain possession idea to move the ball patiently. That's why i selected retain possession.

I have a dlp-de to hold midfield, recycle possession and start attacks.

Inside forward should come narrow to open space for fb overlapping. Fb should cross. Inside the box we should have f9, 2 if, bbm, at least.

F9 should come deep to link with rpm and bbm. He could drag a defender to open space for bbm.

Everybody is running to the middle to finish crosses sent by fb.

Lets break things down...he's playing with 2 IFs, a lone DLP..thats hardly mobile. Against a defence thats got a dm he will run into a roadblock. The moment they go defensive he will see walls. And on top of that he has gone fluid.

When you set up a tactic think about how the players are going to move. When you have a lone forward, it becomes even more challenging. And what does Retain Possession do to your "attacking style of play"??

The best course of action would be to look at the system and ask one fundamental question? Why is everyone running to the middle for, against a stacked defence?

Inside forwards are great to have..but what are you doing to give them more space to make those runs?

Well since I'm pretty much having similar problems I sympathise. So I would love to hear solution, I know the problem, how to fix it is my issue.

You say more mobility required, ok how would I do that? my first thought would be to change my F9 to a CF(S) maybe change one of the IF(S) to W(S) to offer a bit more width. Another idea of mine would be 'Play Wider'.

There is a lot of thinking behind, maybe wrong, but a lot of thinking.

First of all, i want possession. Possession needs retain possession, maybe not this TI specifically, but needs a retain possession idea to move the ball patiently. That's why i selected retain possession.

I have a dlp-de to hold midfield, recycle possession and start attacks.

Inside forward should come narrow to open space for fb overlapping. Fb should cross. Inside the box we should have f9, 2 if, bbm, at least.

F9 should come deep to link with rpm and bbm. He could drag a defender to open space for bbm.

Everybody is running to the middle to finish crosses sent by fb.

In addition, would you say the same from Cleon's possession tactic? Aren't his players running to the middle?

So you took Cleon's tactic and pasted your players over tossed in fluid and are wondering why its wrong? Wait didn't Cleon use a different shape..and hang on didn't he use different shouts?

Well since I'm pretty much having similar problems I sympathise. So I would love to hear solution, I know the problem, how to fix it is my issue.

You say more mobility required, ok how would I do that? my first thought would be to change my F9 to a CF(S) maybe change one of the IF(S) to W(S) to offer a bit more width. Another idea of mine would be 'Play Wider'.

Close you have the right idea now....but remember you need to look at your 3c entral midfielders closely as well, are their roles/duties enough for them to be effective support players. You have the right idea about adding width. Drop the use of retain possession, unless you want to camp in their half and just pass the ball around, which is good if you want to play risk free football. There is a time and place to do that.

Remember that shape increases space in the middle too...You are almost there. Finally ask yourself this question.

"I have my players moving up, how do I make sure I get the ball to my "wingers 90% of the time" without losing possession and not playing retain possession."

Defensive sides will always stack. You need to stretch them, move them around, remember you can play attacking or defensive. Both work. For both you won't need to change roles/duty, all you need to do is use the right shouts to replace retain possession

Close you have the right idea now....but remember you need to look at your 3c entral midfielders closely as well, are their roles/duties enough for them to be effective support players. You have the right idea about adding width. Drop the use of retain possession, unless you want to camp in their half and just pass the ball around, which is good if you want to play risk free football. There is a time and place to do that.

Remember that shape increases space in the middle too...You are almost there. Finally ask yourself this question.

"I have my players moving up, how do I make sure I get the ball to my "wingers 90% of the time" without losing possession and not playing retain possession."

Defensive sides will always stack. You need to stretch them, move them around, remember you can play attacking or defensive. Both work. For both you won't need to change roles/duty, all you need to do is use the right shouts to replace retain possession

Well it's good to know I'm on the right wave length, I don't actually play with the 'Retain Possession' shout. I only use 3, those being 'Short Passing, Push Higher Up & Prevent Short GK'

My Central 3 are a BBM(S) RPM(S) & DM(D). I like my central midfielders to be running up and down.

Ok, to stretch them I would go with Play Wider, short passing and maybe increase tempo.

Well it's good to know I'm on the right wave length, I don't actually play with the 'Retain Possession' shout. I only use 3, those being 'Short Passing, Push Higher Up & Prevent Short GK'

My Central 3 are a BBM(S) RPM(S) & DM(D). I like my central midfielders to be running up and down.

Ok, to stretch them I would go with Play Wider, short passing and maybe increase tempo.

OMG you are closer than you think.., make sure that behind the RPM is a player on support.. I didnt' want to tell you what to do outright, cos it doesn't really help, but if you can think of working on the support group first..you should be fine.

OMG you are closer than you think.., make sure that behind the RPM is a player on support.. I didnt' want to tell you what to do outright, cos it doesn't really help, but if you can think of working on the support group first..you should be fine.

So by changing my DMC to a supporting role, how will that allow the team to push through a defensive wall?

So you took Cleon's tactic and pasted your players over tossed in fluid and are wondering why its wrong? Wait didn't Cleon use a different shape..and hang on didn't he use different shouts?

No, I didn't say that. My question is: why my tactic is that awful if it is very similar to Cleon's? Shape is one reason, ok. It makes no sense, because against a packed defense you need creativity and movement (fluid shape), but ok. Any other reasons? Space is provided by play much wider and drop deep. I already explained it.

I'm completely lost. I feel you all say one thing and the opposite. Both seem to be ok for you, but whatever i try you say is wrong.

So by changing my DMC to a supporting role, how will that allow the team to push through a defensive wall?

The system is already deep due to the DM, you can elect to push him to support if you have the right players behind him in Defender. And breaking through the defensive wall doesn't come from the DM, it comes from you keeping the ball while movie the opponent apart.

No, I didn't say that. My question is: why my tactic is that awful if it is very similar to Cleon's? Shape is one reason, ok. It makes no sense, because against a packed defense you need creativity and movement (fluid shape), but ok. Any other reasons? Space is provided by play much wider and drop deep. I already explained it.

I'm completely lost. I feel you all say one thing and the opposite. Both seem to be ok for you, but whatever i try you say is wrong.

Fluid - makes a team compact

Retain Possession - tells a team not to play through balls.

So how do your players find space? They won't. If you want your players to be creative there are also other shouts.

Fluid - makes a team compact

Retain Possession - tells a team not to play through balls.

So how do your players find space? They won't. If you want your players to be creative there are also other shouts.

Again. Already explained it. Post 37.

First of all, i want possession. Possession needs retain possession, maybe not this TI specifically, but needs a retain possession idea to move the ball patiently. That's why i selected retain possession.

I have a dlp-de to hold midfield, recycle possession and start attacks.

Inside forward should come narrow to open space for fb overlapping. Fb should cross. Inside the box we should have f9, 2 if, bbm, at least.

F9 should come deep to link with rpm and bbm. He could drag a defender to open space for bbm.

Everybody is running to the middle to finish crosses sent by fb.

Again. Already explained it. Post 37.

First of all, i want possession. Possession needs retain possession, maybe not this TI specifically, but needs a retain possession idea to move the ball patiently. That's why i selected retain possession.

I have a dlp-de to hold midfield, recycle possession and start attacks.

Inside forward should come narrow to open space for fb overlapping. Fb should cross. Inside the box we should have f9, 2 if, bbm, at least.

F9 should come deep to link with rpm and bbm. He could drag a defender to open space for bbm.

Everybody is running to the middle to finish crosses sent by fb.

You don't need Retain Possession to have possession. I regularly have good possession with shorting passing (reduces passing length/tempo).

I use the same formation as you, the 4-1-2-3 DM Wide, with 2 IF(S) and F9(S) and when I'm playing teams who are defensive in either a 4-1-4-1 or a 4-2-3-1 2DM I have problems. This is because the 2 DMs are going to nullify the F9 who will be dropping into the same are and the IF(S) will be cutting into an area which has 4 central opposition players already, thus creating a bottleneck.

My advice would be to change one of the IF(S) to a W(S) this will offer width and will spread them. Remove Retain Possession, this reduces passing length and risky passes, you want the occasional risky pass to split the defence. I would suggest using shorting passing/higher tempo compo.

What about lower tempo? Does it also reduces risky passes?