Rational explanation?

[HUNT3R]

No, that just lowers the tempo.

[mikcheck]

Good thanks

[looping]

You don't need Retain Possession to have possession. I regularly have good possession with shorting passing (reduces passing length/tempo).

I use the same formation as you, the 4-1-2-3 DM Wide, with 2 IF(S) and F9(S) and when I'm playing teams who are defensive in either a 4-1-4-1 or a 4-2-3-1 2DM I have problems. This is because the 2 DMs are going to nullify the F9 who will be dropping into the same are and the IF(S) will be cutting into an area which has 4 central opposition players already, thus creating a bottleneck.

My advice would be to change one of the IF(S) to a W(S) this will offer width and will spread them. Remove Retain Possession, this reduces passing length and risky passes, you want the occasional risky pass to split the defence. I would suggest using shorting passing/higher tempo compo.

You are describing exactly what i want my players to do. Create a bottleneck, congest the middle, all the players in front the box, attract the opponent to that area, AND THEN, open the ball to a free space: one flank for one of my fb bombing forward. Why is that a bad idea?

[looping]

One game:

As you can see, opponent is sitting deep:

My problems are:

-disaster defending. I'M NOT CONCEEDING FROM COUNTERS. No. No. This is not the problem. My problem is positional defending.

- When attacking, my players are not doing what i want.

Focus now in attacking. Forget, by the moment, on the defending.

Look at this:

This is ok. This is what i want. We attracted the opponent to one area leaving huge gapes. Look my right fb is in acres of space. For some reason, my players don't send the ball there.

Look at this:

My two fb are in acres of space. Maybe my right fb is too far, but, look the left one. He is completely alone. What does my player? Try to dribble.

[bdixon]

The Retain Possession shout has reduced passing lenght, so you wont see crossfield passes. Also does the player maybe has Run With Ball as a PPM?

[looping]

The Retain Possession shout has reduced passing lenght, so you wont see crossfield passes. Also does the player maybe has Run With Ball as a PPM?

No PPM. All my players do the same.

In the second picture, a pass to my left fb is a long pass?

If i remove retain possession, even if i tick short passing, my players start sending through balls to my striker. Retain poss is the only way to stop it.

[Rashidi]

YWhy is that a bad idea?

It is a bad idea because you are using Retain Possession! That shout will be.."hey lets pass short"!

[herne79]

If you wish to understand the principles of possession football, there is an excellent article called The Art of Possession Football linked in the sticky "How to Build a New Tactic" at the top of this forum.

I've read that post like 100 times and my tactic is supposed to be based on it. So, again the same question? Did I understand well that thread? What is absolutely wrong in my tactic? I've already tried it and i only lose, so there must be something extremely wrong.

No, you did not understand well that thread.

Read this, then compare it your own tactic:

In Football Manager there is possession that is meaningful and possession that is meaningless. I see a lot of tactics and posts on a daily basis that fall into the latter. Achieving a high possession percentage is relatively easy but creating something that is still potent and uses that possession in dangerous areas is a lot harder. For any kind of possession strategy then something based on these Team Instructions would be a good starting point for such a system;

Highly Structured Team Shape – This would allow space to open in midfield and encourages players to keep it simple.

Lower Tempo – This encourages players to look for support and not to rush with their play. Players will be looking up and accessing their options more.

Roam From Position – Encourage players to make themselves available, keeping support options available. It’s probably one (if not) the most important aspect of ball retention.

Dribble Less – You don’t want many players dribbling with the ball because you want players in support and the idea is to retain possession. Dribbling can see passing options reduced.

Pass it Shorter – It’s all about keeping it simple with the ball. The longer the pass the more likely it can be under/over hit, mistimed or even intercepted by the opposition.

Retain Possession – Again it reduces passing length making it even shorter and cutting the risk of through balls out.

Work Ball Into Box – You don’t want players shooting from distances and wasting chances. Not only that but it would give the opposition the ball, which kinda goes against possession right?

Play Out of Defence – Building attacks from the back is basic possession football.

Distribute Short – If you don’t then you will often find your keeper booting the ball long and wasting possession. Your keepers distribution will likely have the single biggest impact on your overall possession. So make sure he isn’t wasting it.

You are using just one of those settings.

And where does it say that it's a good idea to start with a default mentality that already has a lot of width to then add even more width to it? Or to reduce the depth of your def line, even though a DMC already does this, and so take some pressure off the opposition and let them have a bit more time on the ball?

You also need to understand that Cleon uses TIs such as Shorter Passing and Retain Possession to reduce the space between his players and not to simply "Retain Possession" due to his starting mentality and Team Shape. But you are using Fluid, which already compresses space. And then you have a further conflict between Retain Possession and Fluid - one increases through balls, the other reduces them.

It's too long to re-quote, but also re-read his descriptions of the defence, midfield and attack. Do not simply copy him, try to understand the principles being discussed.

Can you use Fluid to create a possession based tactic? Yes of course, but you need to be aware of what the tactical settings do.

[looping]

No, you did not understand well that thread.

Read this, then compare it your own tactic:

You are using just one of those settings.

And where does it say that it's a good idea to start with a default mentality that already has a lot of width to then add even more width to it? Or to reduce the depth of your def line, even though a DMC already does this, and so take some pressure off the opposition and let them have a bit more time on the ball?

You also need to understand that Cleon uses TIs such as Shorter Passing and Retain Possession to reduce the space between his players and not to simply "Retain Possession" due to his starting mentality and Team Shape. But you are using Fluid, which already compresses space. And then you have a further conflict between Retain Possession and Fluid - one increases through balls, the other reduces them.

It's too long to re-quote, but also re-read his descriptions of the defence, midfield and attack. Do not simply copy him, try to understand the principles being discussed.

Can you use Fluid to create a possession based tactic? Yes of course, but you need to be aware of what the tactical settings do.

r to reduce the depth of your def line, even though a DMC already does this-----> First time i've heard about this.

Fluid increases through balls??

I will explain again everything because you ask questions which i have already answered and we are going on circles:

1. I have problems attacking packed defenses

2. I want to attakc packed defenses in Rashidi words: "Camp in their half and make sure I drill that box with crosses from both sides till their defenders don't know which side is which and then score."

3. I need possession.

4. Possession needs: short passing, creativity, space and movement (Cleon said)

Short passing---> retain possession

Creativiy--Fluid shape

Space--->Wide and drop deep

Movement--->if coming narrow, f9 coming deep, b2b running forward, rpm moving around the pitch.

5. I need crosses.

6. My fb bombing forward in open space created by my if will send crosses.

THE RESULT:

- Awful defense. Conceeding in every match at least 1 goal.

- Attacking is good, the only problem is that my players are not passing the ball to fb who are all alone in acres of space. They start dribbling or pass the ball to the middle, even to the other side. It's not a lenght passing problem. It's like my fb that are all alone are invisible. I posted screenshots.

You are overcomplicating this. The only thing that i want is that my players pass the ball to my fb bombing forward in open space.

[herne79]

You say you want possession.

I advise you to read a thread all about it.

You say you've read it.

I say you haven't understood it and give you examples of why.

You disbelieve me and continue to demonstrate that you don't understand.

And finally tell me I'm over complicating things.

Until you accept that you do not understand, you will continue to fail. That's my final piece of advice.

[looping]

I accept that i don't understand. That's why i'm asking. I don't understand your examples, for instance.

I don't understand why if i cover anything that a possession tactic needs, it doesn't work. There is space, movement, short passing, and creativity.

Now you will say because retain possession and fluid. And i ask: why? Fluid reduces space,ok, but as you can see in the screenshots there is a lot of space. If i untick retain possession, my players start sending long balls to my striker, no matter if i set work ball box, play out defense or whatever. They do that.

So: why is my idea wrong? Fluid is not the reason because there is space. Retain possession neither cause if i untick it, my players start doing the opposite of what i want.

?

[Ceching You Out]

Fluid means your players will get compact on defense. Presumably, when you win the ball back that compactness reduces your options to play the ball forward. That explains why you're getting longer balls out without Retain Possession.

When you add Retain Possession to your other selections, your instructions are all over the place for possession. You're telling your players to make fairly aggressive runs forward and be creative, but also keep it simple and safe. Your players move forward as a unit which minimizes the space between lines. Look at those screenshots again -- the spacing is all wrong. Where are the multiple easy pass options? The only secondary options in both is a long cross-field ball, and you're taking that away with Retain Possession.

On the defensive side of things -- again, look at that screenshot. Is it any wonder you're conceding goals? Your players have limited safe options so let's assume they lose the ball. It's immediately a 2v2 counter opportunity with just about any long clearance.

There's a reason why people are picking on the Fluid versus RP contradiction. Structured results in more vertical space so it's easier to keep the ball. Creativity is damped down. Your players will make less risky decisions on their runs.

[looping]

Fluid means your players will get compact on defense. Presumably, when you win the ball back that compactness reduces your options to play the ball forward. That explains why you're getting longer balls out without Retain Possession.

When you add Retain Possession to your other selections, your instructions are all over the place for possession. You're telling your players to make fairly aggressive runs forward and be creative, but also keep it simple and safe. Your players move forward as a unit which minimizes the space between lines. Look at those screenshots again -- the spacing is all wrong. Where are the multiple easy pass options? The only secondary options in both is a long cross-field ball, and you're taking that away with Retain Possession.

On the defensive side of things -- again, look at that screenshot. Is it any wonder you're conceding goals? Your players have limited safe options so let's assume they lose the ball. It's immediately a 2v2 counter opportunity with just about any long clearance.

There's a reason why people are picking on the Fluid versus RP contradiction. Structured results in more vertical space so it's easier to keep the ball. Creativity is damped down. Your players will make less risky decisions on their runs.

Thanks for your answer.

When defending, as i said, i'm not conceeding from counters. My problem is positional defense. No goals conceeded from counters.

When attacking, my only problem is that my IF don't look at my fb overlapping, even if i set look for overlap.

[looping]

I removed retain possession and fluid.

My IF don't see my fb overlapping..

My players start running to crash against seven defenders instead of passing the ball back. Even with counter mentality.

My players send long balls to my striker insted of passing the ball back.

I don't understand why you say retain possession and fluid are a problem. I don't get it. This is not what i see. I see the opposite.

Forget about it. I was just trying to learn how to attack packed defenses and it's obvius i understand nothing.

To bring this to something constructive,i have this tactic that works for the first 20 matches (more or less, then happens what i showed in my first posts):

What do you see in this tactic that doesn't allow me to attack a packed defense? What would you change?

[Ceching You Out]

I'm not able to view the image of your tactic at work, so I can't comment on that besides what you've shared. But if you're outperforming for the first half of the season, the AI will change how it approaches games against you. You have to revisit your tactics when things stop working.

If you don't want your IF to dribble at the defense, why are you choosing that role? You're telling him to get the ball and dribble directly towards the goal from wide positions. It sounds like you're looking for something different. Overlapping is going to be more difficult because he makes direct runs so your FB has to catch up to him; he's also turning his back to your FB's run.

Retain Possession is creating the very packed defenses you're upset with. That shout tells your players to minimize risk, which gives your opponent's defense time to reset.

Again, the issue is that you were using both Retain Possession and Fluid. These aren't really compatible. Using one or the other isn't a problem. That's been suggested several times in this thread. Try Retain Possession and Structured or Shorter Passes and Fluid.

Ultimately, you can attack a packed defense a few, mutually exclusive ways. (1) Don't let allow them to get packed. Attack quickly and decisively. (2) Patiently probe, pull them out of position, and attack the gaps. (3) Overpower them with strength. Get your bigger players in the box and smash crosses. Out of those three, what type of players are required? Which do you have? Start working through it from there.

[looping]

I reloaded my test save on FMT. I know what's going to happen, 6 months to create a tactic that will wokr for 20 matches and then bye bye. Anyway, let's try.

Instead of creating a new tactic, i'm going to tweak my 4411.So i chose:

imag

PI: gk roll it out, wm-su sit narrower, dlf-su move into channels, roam from position, dribble less.

Why:

- As a said, i'm not going to create a new tactic. I will start from what i already have.

- I want a possession style BECAUSE THIS TACTIC WILL ONLY BE USED AGAINST PACKED DEFENSES. This is very important.

- I think i can ountumber opponent in midfield because my wm will come narrow, my dlf come deep, amb my ss help midfield. So, althought i start with only 2 central midfielders, i will place there 5 players.

- I want to win the ball back fast, and then open the ball to one flank and cross. Left side i have my fb, who will overlap my wm (sitting narrower and opening space for him). Right side i have my w-at. To finish crosses i expect to have my ss, dlf, bbm and wm (if the cross comes from the left side my winger).

Do you see anything extremely wrong?

I'm conceeding like crazy. NOT FROM COUNTERS.

Creating no chance.

Sending long balls to striker

Players start running instead of passing the ball back.

No possession (less than 50%)

[looping]

It is clearly not working. I changed to this:

imagen jpg

PI changed: removed wm-su sit narrower, cb close down less.

Why?

-Removed play out the defense because control mentality already has short passing at back so we are already doing that.

- Close down less cb. No idea, maybe it works and i'll conceed less. I have no idea why i'm conceeding, so i don't know what i can do. AGAIN: I'M NOT CONCEEDING FROM COUNTERS.

- BBm runs and dribbles too much. SS the same.

- Flexible shape. Shape is driving me crazy so i'll just ignore it.

- Creating chances. No idea what to do.

- Sending long balls to striker. I set retain possession.

- Players start running instead of passing the ball back. Retain possession and dribble less.

- wm sit narrower. He was not sitting narrower, so, if an order is uneffective just remove it.

- No possession. Let's see if it changes.

[looping]

What happened? Nothing good. Slightly more possession. same chances. Same conceeding.

I change to this:

subir imagen

Dropped defense. Maybe i'll have more space to attack and i'll defend better (no idea why i'm conceeding)

Fairly wide. More space.

Let's see.

[looping]

And then? Nothing. The same.

I don't know what i am doing wrong so is stupid to keep changing things without any clear reason.

No idea what to do. At least, when i was playing with fluid and retain possession i was able to spot a clear issue (IF not looking at fb overlapping). Now, i can't say anything.

[looping]

It's completely frustrating. I've learnt nothing. I don't know anything. I don't know how to attack. i don't know how to defend. The more i read, the more confused i am. I read one thing and the opposite. Both seem to be ok. Whatever i try is wrong. It's like i'm playing a different game.

Why whatever i try is wrong? I have even tried to do the opposite of what i think is good. Nothing. Anything i try is wrong.

[Dr. Hook]

Why do you insist on using retain possession on every tactic? Do you know what it does? Why control strategy, do you know what it does? Seriously, I have never seen anyone have so much trouble with this after repeatedly getting advice from the best FM minds this forum has to offer. See, your base tactic is soundly constructed. It should produce some results. You claim you never win, and concede loads of goals. Are you winding us all up here? I don't mean to offend, but it's starting to look like this could be the case.

[looping]

Why do you insist on using retain possession on every tactic? Do you know what it does? Why control strategy, do you know what it does? Seriously, I have never seen anyone have so much trouble with this after repeatedly getting advice from the best FM minds this forum has to offer. See, your base tactic is soundly constructed. It should produce some results. You claim you never win, and concede loads of goals. Are you winding us all up here? I don't mean to offend, but it's starting to look like this could be the case.

My tactic produces results until i've played around 20 games when i start conceeding absolutely like crazy. Take a look at first posts in this thread. The tactic is posted in post 64. As i said, this tactic provides me good results during 20 games. Then, it is supposed that the opponent starts to play more defensive and i don't know how to attack.

I'm using retain possession because if i remove it, my players start sending long balls to my striker, no matter what other instructions i set. Even when they have a easy pass, the decide without any clear reason, to send a long ball to my striker who is obviusly surrounded by 3 players at least.

I stopped posting but keep trying without retain possession, using other combinations. Believe me, nothing changes. I can't show you because i don't save after playing one game (i play the same game all the time, i think it is easier to see the differences). It's not a problem if you want me to play another, you'll see how i lose. I can post the pkm. Believe me, i'm not lying. I'm not crazy. I bought the game in xmas and i haven't played a long term save yet.

I'm trying with my test save in fmtouch. I'm playing with sevilla. I played the same game, a friendly against Ingolstad. I haven't won a game. A single one.

You say " you have to understand". The problem is that i don't understant what i have to understand. I read cleon's thread about possession and the other about attacking football and please believe me, i got no conclusion. I know the same before reading it than after. I'm not saying the thread is bad: on the contrary, i'm sure there is a lot of useful information, but i don't get it.

I'm not albert einstein but i have my university degree and, most important, i've played fm succesfully for the last, i don't know, ¿10 years? I have no idea what's going on here.

I know this is not the first time you think i'm lying. Some of your (not only you, other people also) answers suggest that. It's understandable, but, please, believe me, i'm doing my very best, i've watched hundreds of full games, i've read, i've watched rashidi videos, but nothing. Nothing clicks. And i don't know what to do.

It's sad to say but probably i can't play fm16. It's that simple. I have 2 friends who used to play fm with. They are not playing it since last year because they expieriencied the same than me: consistently losing. I didn't surrender and came here for help. DOn't leave me alone and try to understand how frustrated i am.

[looping]

For instance. That's not for analysis, just because i want you to believe me. We can discuss it if you want.

[/url]

subir fotos gratis

I saved the pkm if you want to see the game.

Please, believe me.

[Dr. Hook]

I see a 2-2 draw in a friendly against a Bundesliga side. Is that bad? Also when you say conceding a lot, how much is a lot?

Here is my last piece of help that I can offer you: if teams start playing defensively after you win a load of matches, then try moving your mentality down to standard, or even better, counter or defensive. Playing control is still very attacking football and it plays right into a defending side who WANT you to come at them. If you sit deeper yourself (you will still have a nice attacking movement, by the way) you create vertical space and stretch them- make them come to you.

At the end of the day, you want to win matches, and if whatever style you are trying to play is not working, then you have to adapt.

[looping]

I see a 2-2 draw in a friendly against a Bundesliga side. Is that bad? Also when you say conceding a lot, how much is a lot?

Here is my last piece of help that I can offer you: if teams start playing defensively after you win a load of matches, then try moving your mentality down to standard, or even better, counter or defensive. Playing control is still very attacking football and it plays right into a defending side who WANT you to come at them. If you sit deeper yourself (you will still have a nice attacking movement, by the way) you create vertical space and stretch them- make them come to you.

At the end of the day, you want to win matches, and if whatever style you are trying to play is not working, then you have to adapt.

I'm playing with sevilla. Home game. Ingolstad is the opponent. I should beat them 9 of every 10 games. Not a single win.

COnceeding a lot is more than 1 goal per game. This means i start every game losing 1-0, so i have to score two.

Anyway, this tactic is not my style. This tactic (which is, or better said maybe, was being created) was supposed to be used when the opponent plays defensive. My starting tactic is in post 64.

Adapting is exactly what i'm trying to do.

It makes no sense for me to play more defensive against a defensive side. THis is something that you all consistently say and i don't understand. If a team plays defensive you have to play more attacking against them, if you want to win. There is no option and actually this is the best you can do. They will sit deep so you will be able to surround them in the area and send crosses. This is how i see real football works. Yes, they can counter you, but remember that you are trying to win so you must take risks.

If you are happy with a draw, just sit back and let the time go by. If i play more defensive that's what's going to happen.

I know you don't think so. I don't understand why. I don't understand why i'll have more chances to win if against a defensive side i play more defensive. I don't understand it.

You start a game. 0-0. The opponent scores. 0-1. What i have to do? Change mentality to defensive because they will sit back? How am i supposed to score 2 goals? How on the earth i will attract them? Why on earth they will come to me? Why will they take risks? They are happy with the result, are they stupid?

They will sit back and say "hey, come here, we'll catch you on the counter". And i have to say "Here we go. You are going to regret. I'm going to surround you and drill your box with crosses".

What will never happen is me saying "hey, you are winning, come here, give me space, then i'll catch you on the counter" and they "of course here we go!!"

[Dr. Hook]

It makes no sense for me to play more defensive against a defensive side. THis is something that you all consistently say and i don't understand. If a team plays defensive you have to play more attacking against them, if you want to win. There is no option and actually this is the best you can do. They will sit deep so you will be able to surround them in the area and send crosses. This is how i see real football works. Yes, they can counter you, but remember that you are trying to win so you must take risks.

If you are happy with a draw, just sit back and let the time go by. If i play more defensive that's what's going to happen.

I know you don't think so. I don't understand why. I don't understand why i'll have more chances to win if against a defensive side i play more defensive. I don't understand it.

First off, stop getting hung up on the names attacking and defensive- they aren't helping you at all, and from this post I see that you are putting a lot of weight on the labels. Let me try to explain it differently. Using a defensive mentality doesn't necessarily mean playing more defensively. It means you are setting how far up the pitch you want to establish yourself and how quickly, and how aggressive you want your team to play going for the goal. I know you get that. However, you can still play attacking football using a more conservative approach. In fact, if you take out the extreme strategies of overload and contain, you might be better off thinking this way. Defensive is conservative football, attacking is risky football. By conservative we are meaning here that you are playing a patient game, stretching space and looking for opportunities. That is what you must do against sides that are sitting deep against you. If you are playing high risk, fast, attacking football, you are just running into packed defenses and turning the ball over. You can do what you say you want to do against much weaker opponents, but against sides at your basic level, it won't work very well.

So, going defensive means taking a more patient approach to a team sitting deep and defending. You want to unlock them, not batter the door down. I gave you an example of how it works in my earlier post- if you play deeper, you stretch space vertically and the defenders come to you. You have to get the defense moving and chasing the ball to create openings. You can use your same duties and roles, and even fluid shape, or more creative freedom, increase risky passes if you like, but you have to get them moving. Going at them in a quick attacking fashion means the defenders don't have to work very hard- they can sit back and let come into their area and shut you down.

Just get past the names here and think about what the strategies actually do, and you'll see what I mean. There is a lot of flexibility to create attacking tactics using counter or defensive strategies, or standard, even. But at the end of the day, you have to do something, because you aren't having any success with what you are currently doing. Give it a try without judgment and see how it does for you.

EDIT: One last thing, if you use the Work the Ball into the Box, did you know that that reduces crossing?

[Rashidi]

I think I need to do videos where all I use are Defensive Mentality tactics that generate 70% possession numbers and win games.

That's going to be boring.

[Dr. Hook]

I think I need to do videos where all I use are Defensive Mentality tactics that generate 70% possession numbers and win games.

That's going to be boring.

It might be for you , but for a lot of us it would be good viewing

[looping]

First off, stop getting hung up on the names attacking and defensive- they aren't helping you at all, and from this post I see that you are putting a lot of weight on the labels. Let me try to explain it differently. Using a defensive mentality doesn't necessarily mean playing more defensively. It means you are setting how far up the pitch you want to establish yourself and how quickly, and how aggressive you want your team to play going for the goal. I know you get that. However, you can still play attacking football using a more conservative approach. In fact, if you take out the extreme strategies of overload and contain, you might be better off thinking this way. Defensive is conservative football, attacking is risky football. By conservative we are meaning here that you are playing a patient game, stretching space and looking for opportunities. That is what you must do against sides that are sitting deep against you. If you are playing high risk, fast, attacking football, you are just running into packed defenses and turning the ball over. You can do what you say you want to do against much weaker opponents, but against sides at your basic level, it won't work very well.

So, going defensive means taking a more patient approach to a team sitting deep and defending. You want to unlock them, not batter the door down. I gave you an example of how it works in my earlier post- if you play deeper, you stretch space vertically and the defenders come to you. You have to get the defense moving and chasing the ball to create openings. You can use your same duties and roles, and even fluid shape, or more creative freedom, increase risky passes if you like, but you have to get them moving. Going at them in a quick attacking fashion means the defenders don't have to work very hard- they can sit back and let come into their area and shut you down.

Just get past the names here and think about what the strategies actually do, and you'll see what I mean. There is a lot of flexibility to create attacking tactics using counter or defensive strategies, or standard, even. But at the end of the day, you have to do something, because you aren't having any success with what you are currently doing. Give it a try without judgment and see how it does for you.

EDIT: One last thing, if you use the Work the Ball into the Box, did you know that that reduces crossing?

Thanks for you answer.

I understand your words, but what i can't understand is how fm thinks. I don't understand how mentalities are defined. It is very confusing and i see no connection with real football.. If you add to this that descriptions of mentalities in the game are wrong, i don't know how people can play the game without reading this forum. DOn't you think so? It is only me?

Another thing. Reading you and reading cleon's thread about attacking football, it makes me think you are saying one thing and the opposite. Both seem to be good for you. I don't understand.

The stretch space vertically doesn't make sense to me or i don't understand it. Or both, i don't know. Why on earth defenders will come to me? This is an irrational behaviour. If i sit deeper and start short passing the ball in my half, why on earth defenders will come to me? Why is for them a problem me short passing the ball in my half? Isn't it exactly what they want? Why is a problem for them if i'm creating no danger?

This is not how real football is. i have to understand how fm thinks, and most important, why. I need to understand.

COuld you be so nice to answer my questions? If you feel you already did, could you please use another words?

[herne79]

Mentality is nothing more than risk.

The definition of both mentality and risk can be found in the FAQ sticky at the top of this forum.

[Dr. Hook]

Okay, I'll do my best here. Let's establish a couple of things straight off:

1) FM is not real life football. It doesn't work quite the same. It is a very good simulation in many respects, but it does not quite match up to real life. Once we understand that we are going to get something that looks like football, but will have some odd behaviors or things that don't always make sense, we can deal with it without frustration.

2) Football, FM and real life is about space, right? So what I am trying to tell you is about creating space. Cleon made an attacking thread, but if you look at his counter thread, or his possession thread, or anything Rashidi has ever done, what you see is that the tactics they make all use space well.

Okay- understanding strategy: we have the 7 strategies from Contain to Overload. The in-game descriptions provide a basic understanding of the point of them, yes. FM in many ways is designed for a casual user. People like us in this forum or you really trying to understand how it works are not the average FMer. There are thousands of people who post in the General Discussion forum that never set foot in this forum and are happy to play away without worrying so much. When they see Defensive strategy, it makes sense to them and they use it as is. They are basically correct. An attacking strategy is that: attacking football. What do we mean by this? We mean that we want our team to get up the pitch quickly and put pressure on the opposition. Our players will move higher up the pitch and our defensive line will push up- our team is more adventurous looking to push the play. Control is a bit less adventurous- the defensive line defaults a bit lower, the players do not push up as much, etc. on down the line to defensive. So the in-game descriptions are fine. Mentality is how high up the pitch a player will play and how involved in pushing the attack they will be. You can see this when you click on the player in the tactics screen and look at the role- there is a bar that shows the mentality. This is for the general team outlook. You can then alter individual behavior with roles and duties.

Okay, the problem comes in when what you are trying to do doesn't work. Then the mentality descriptions don't help you. You still want to attack, so in your mind you think "why would I want to play a defensive strategy?" What is happening is that your team is not finding space to get scoring chances. You can do a number of things, but I want to focus just on changing strategy/ team mentality. This is where vertical space comes in. With a high team mentality, you will be pressing up against the defense- you players are moving into attacking positions and the space gets compressed- make sense? Chances are harder to get, passes don't get through, players are more tightly marked etc. because of the packed bodies in the scoring areas. By dropping your mentality a bit, from say, control, which you were using, to standard or counter, you are relaxing the forward pressure a little bit. Your players are no longer compressing space so much in the final third. This translates into a more spread out defense that you can move through. This is vertical space- the space from byline to byline- you are pulling the defense toward you by playing a little deeper. Horizontal space is from touchline to touchline, and you create space there with width.

Why would they come to you? Well because they aren't going to leave dangerous players unmarked on purpose. If you just sat in your own half unpressured and just passed the ball around, of course they won't come chase you, but we are talking about the final third of the pitch here, or a bit more. Once you get into their territory they have to defend you, right? No team is just going to let you waltz up to the edge of the area and take shots at leisure or just get a free run into a goal scoring spot. When you play with a lower mentality, you are forcing the other team to engage you further away from the penalty area. This creates gaps between their defenders and midfielders that you can exploit.

So it does work like real football, but we are going beyond just basic in-game descriptions which I personally feel need some work. But we use what we have. I hope this makes a bit more sense. If you use attacking and support roles well, you can have a "defensive" mentality but still create good attacking football.

[looping]

Okay, I'll do my best here. Let's establish a couple of things straight off:

1) FM is not real life football. It doesn't work quite the same. It is a very good simulation in many respects, but it does not quite match up to real life. Once we understand that we are going to get something that looks like football, but will have some odd behaviors or things that don't always make sense, we can deal with it without frustration.

2) Football, FM and real life is about space, right? So what I am trying to tell you is about creating space. Cleon made an attacking thread, but if you look at his counter thread, or his possession thread, or anything Rashidi has ever done, what you see is that the tactics they make all use space well.

Okay- understanding strategy: we have the 7 strategies from Contain to Overload. The in-game descriptions provide a basic understanding of the point of them, yes. FM in many ways is designed for a casual user. People like us in this forum or you really trying to understand how it works are not the average FMer. There are thousands of people who post in the General Discussion forum that never set foot in this forum and are happy to play away without worrying so much. When they see Defensive strategy, it makes sense to them and they use it as is. They are basically correct. An attacking strategy is that: attacking football. What do we mean by this? We mean that we want our team to get up the pitch quickly and put pressure on the opposition. Our players will move higher up the pitch and our defensive line will push up- our team is more adventurous looking to push the play. Control is a bit less adventurous- the defensive line defaults a bit lower, the players do not push up as much, etc. on down the line to defensive. So the in-game descriptions are fine. Mentality is how high up the pitch a player will play and how involved in pushing the attack they will be. You can see this when you click on the player in the tactics screen and look at the role- there is a bar that shows the mentality. This is for the general team outlook. You can then alter individual behavior with roles and duties.

Okay, the problem comes in when what you are trying to do doesn't work. Then the mentality descriptions don't help you. You still want to attack, so in your mind you think "why would I want to play a defensive strategy?" What is happening is that your team is not finding space to get scoring chances. You can do a number of things, but I want to focus just on changing strategy/ team mentality. This is where vertical space comes in. With a high team mentality, you will be pressing up against the defense- you players are moving into attacking positions and the space gets compressed- make sense? Chances are harder to get, passes don't get through, players are more tightly marked etc. because of the packed bodies in the scoring areas. By dropping your mentality a bit, from say, control, which you were using, to standard or counter, you are relaxing the forward pressure a little bit. Your players are no longer compressing space so much in the final third. This translates into a more spread out defense that you can move through. This is vertical space- the space from byline to byline- you are pulling the defense toward you by playing a little deeper. Horizontal space is from touchline to touchline, and you create space there with width.

Why would they come to you? Well because they aren't going to leave dangerous players unmarked on purpose. If you just sat in your own half unpressured and just passed the ball around, of course they won't come chase you, but we are talking about the final third of the pitch here, or a bit more. Once you get into their territory they have to defend you, right? No team is just going to let you waltz up to the edge of the area and take shots at leisure or just get a free run into a goal scoring spot. When you play with a lower mentality, you are forcing the other team to engage you further away from the penalty area. This creates gaps between their defenders and midfielders that you can exploit.

So it does work like real football, but we are going beyond just basic in-game descriptions which I personally feel need some work. But we use what we have. I hope this makes a bit more sense. If you use attacking and support roles well, you can have a "defensive" mentality but still create good attacking football.

Ok. Then, if i start with a standard mentality and i see the opponent very defensive i should lower my mentality to counter.

If i start with standard mentality and i score the opponent will take more risks, so i should also lower my mentality to counter to hit them on the counter.

Then, when i should change to control? Never?

If counter "works" against packed defenses and allows you to hit on the counter, why isn't everybody using this mentality always?

[Ceching You Out]

Ok. Then, if i start with a standard mentality and i see the opponent very defensive i should lower my mentality to counter.

If i start with standard mentality and i score the opponent will take more risks, so i should also lower my mentality to counter to hit them on the counter.

Then, when i should change to control? Never?

If counter "works" against packed defenses and allows you to hit on the counter, why isn't everybody using this mentality always?

You can't look at just your mentality, fluidity, formation, or roles in isolation. They all contribute. But the first step is understanding what each of the settings means in isolation. Dr. Hook does a great job of explaining the mentalities above. Elsewhere in this thread you've seen people explain most of the Fluidity settings.

Think of yourself as a cook. How do you bake a decent meal? You have a lot of ingredients at your disposal. The first step is understanding your ingredients.

Mentality:

Attacking -- Get after them. Play more directly. Everybody run forward. Take more risks. Hold a higher line and close down much higher up the pitch.

Control -- Like attacking, but a little more cautious. Similarly aggressive to the above, just a little less so.

Standard -- Neutral. Balance direct play with possession. Balance risks.

Counter -- Like defending, but a little more aggressive. Similarly conservative to the below, just a little less so.

Defend -- Hold back. Play conservatively. Take fewer risks. Seldom run forward. Hold a deep line and close down much deeper on the pitch.

Fluidity:

Rigid -- You know exactly what to do -- play to your role. If you're attack, you're attacking. If you're defending, you're defending. Stick to your place on the field. Don't get creative or try outside-the-box things. Potentially more space, more isolation.

Structured -- Like rigid, but a little less regimented. Once in a blue moon you can try something unexpected, but generally follow your role.

Flexible -- Neutral. Balance your role with the team's efforts. Occasionally try to get creative.

Fluid -- Like very fluid, but a little more regimented. Pay a little more attention to your role, but generally take a creative option if you think it's there.

Very fluid -- Focus on your team. Stay compact. Everyone attacks, everyone defends. Feel free to roam. The world is your oyster, get creative. Potentially less space, more crowding.

Don't focus on what you have now. What do you want to cook? It probably depends on the opposition. If the other team is parking the bus, there's no space in the box. Do you want your players to aggressively be direct and make a lot of forward runs? Probably not, unless you have physical, "sledgehammer" type forwards. Most people want to probe, pull defenders out of position, and then exploit the gaps. But to do that, you need to be more patient. That's why people are suggesting lowering your mentality.

Lower mentalities aren't a silver bullet though. It depends on how your opposition sets up -- Real Madrid parks the bus for no one. It depends on what types of players you have -- it does a Route 1 team no good to be patient. It depends on the formation you use -- a 4-1-4-1 set to Attacking leaves different spaces than a 4-3-3.

[Ceching You Out]

It might be helpful to give an example. Ignoring your PI, let's say you encounter a parked bus with your 4-1-2-3 playing Counter/Fluid.

What type of parked bus is it? Are they leaving just one up top? Are they bothering to quickly get out of their half or are they maintaining possession when they win it back? Let's assume they're well and truly parked.

You have a few options you could explore. I'll go with the simplest, which has been suggested here several times. Lure them out and create space. Counter/Fluid could work for that, but you'll need runs to break lines so you probably need to rethink your roles. Your IF will gallop forward and cut inside when you get the ball, congesting the middle. Your BBM will try to get in the box, but the Regista and DLP will mostly piddle around without worrying about surging runs. Maybe try swapping one of those roles out for a CM(s) or CM(a) who will give you another runner. Change at least one of the IF to a W to make at least one FB stay wide. Tell your players to look for short passes to rein in the creativity Fluid gives them, but don't neuter them with Retain Possession.

[Dr. Hook]

Ok. Then, if i start with a standard mentality and i see the opponent very defensive i should lower my mentality to counter.

If i start with standard mentality and i score the opponent will take more risks, so i should also lower my mentality to counter to hit them on the counter.

Then, when i should change to control? Never?

If counter "works" against packed defenses and allows you to hit on the counter, why isn't everybody using this mentality always?

Cech You Out gave some great stuff just above this, but I want to make sure you are clear here: this is one way in which you attack a parked bus team. You should start out in control if that is your play style. Sometimes teams won't park the bus against, especially if they feel they can win. What your results suggest is that you were winning so teams begin playing more cautiously against you. If you find that you are not creating chances going forward, then you might look to lower your mentality to do what I wrote about.

Also, if you are playing a counter strategy, that doesn't mean automatically you are looking to hit on the counter. In fact, if you are playing against defensive-minded teams, you probably won't get many opportunities to do so. Ignore the names and think of it as a play style that goes from most risky/adventurous(overload) to least (contain). Each step on the way is a different level between those two extremes.

[Dr. Hook]

Oh and Looping, Eres hablante nativo de Espanol? Es esta parte del problema? No hablo Espanol con fluidez, pero me pregunto si la lengua es un problema.

[looping]

Yes, i'm from Barcelona. Language obviusly doesn't help. I understand what you say but sometimes i think i have some problems expressing myself and you missunderstand me. I use to play the game in english and spanish indisctinctly to help with this.

[Dr. Hook]

Yes, i'm from Barcelona. Language obviusly doesn't help. I understand what you say but sometimes i think i have some problems expressing myself and you missunderstand me. I use to play the game in english and spanish indisctinctly to help with this.

Okay, that's fine we can still get this across one way or another. Anyway, does the idea of playing a lower mentality make sense to you and why you would do it? Remember, don't think of the names of the strategies, but think of them as a series of steps from conservative to adventurous and it will be a lot easier to get.

[James9]

Dr Hook I applaud you for your explanation. I never thought that Defensive or Counter could be so effective. I play as Arsenal and most teams will sit deep against me. The big teams even play cautious against me when I am at home. I never put so much thought into this until I started going through the thread. My main lack of knowledge is how to get a Defensive tactic to play attacking football. What I mean is in terms of roles and duties, TI and PI. Could you help me with this or point me in the right direction. I am playing with a 4231 wide so my front four are already in good positions in the final third. I just need to know how to play defensive football that scores goals and attacks.

[Dr. Hook]

James, try this thread: http://community.sigames.com/showthr...Defensive-Arts

The basic thing is that playing a defensive strategy does not mean you just sit there and shut up shop. I used a defensive strategy for a lower league side in FM15 and scored a lot of goals. What you want to keep in mind is that your default defensive line will be be deep, so you can use a TI to push it up. I would leave my roles and duties the same if I was already using an attacking strategy to start with and see how they do. You might want to look at passing in the final third, because defensive strategies will have more direct passing for attackers, which you might not want-keep an eye on that. I recall that my AM and Fs I shortened their passing when using defensive so they played a more patient game.

[looping]

Okay, that's fine we can still get this across one way or another. Anyway, does the idea of playing a lower mentality make sense to you and why you would do it? Remember, don't think of the names of the strategies, but think of them as a series of steps from conservative to adventurous and it will be a lot easier to get.

Yes, but...

It makes sense as long as we admit that here fm has to work a lot. "Control" mentality should mean short passing, possession and high closing down (essentialy). Counter should mean packed back, direct passing and fast transitions. As long as mentality is like a slider, it disrupts what mentalities should mean. I Think this is wrong and whoever is responsible of that should change it for the next fm. Mentalities must not be risk slider. We see how mentalities description don't match with mentalities, but,in my opinion, descriptions are ok, mentalities are wrong, specially counter and control.

That's my suggestion. It's obvius that if to attack a packed defense you need a more defensive mentality, there is something wrong. Nobody can deny it.

Assuming that, there is no need to discuss it anymore, at least here and now.

Disregarding from that, it makes sense, yes but that doesn't mean that i can fix my issues and play fm succesfully.

I know my problem. When i start building a tactic, i set mentality, shape, roles, duties, etc... I think i'm not doing this specially wrong. My approach is not bad. Obviusly, the tactic is not perfect because i must watch some games to spot issues and fix them. Here comes my problem. I've watched hundreds of matches and i'm not able to identify issues. I'm not even able to identify what is good. That's my real problem. I don't get any conclusion from watching games. And i don't know what to do about that.

[James9]

James, try this thread: http://community.sigames.com/showthr...Defensive-Arts

The basic thing is that playing a defensive strategy does not mean you just sit there and shut up shop. I used a defensive strategy for a lower league side in FM15 and scored a lot of goals. What you want to keep in mind is that your default defensive line will be be deep, so you can use a TI to push it up. I would leave my roles and duties the same if I was already using an attacking strategy to start with and see how they do. You might want to look at passing in the final third, because defensive strategies will have more direct passing for attackers, which you might not want-keep an eye on that. I recall that my AM and Fs I shortened their passing when using defensive so they played a more patient game.

I have one attacking role in my final third and I have a wing back on attack duty and striker is playing as CF Attack. which is the Inside Forward. Both my CMs are on Defend Duty. Do you think I have too much attacking duties in my team for defensive football. Would you suggest I tried Counter Attacking as well. I know Cleon wrote a thread on this area.

Would you suggest any TI when playing with a defensive mentality. I was reading this thread today and someone mentioned moving the ball through the lines and creating space. But how do you do that

[Dr. Hook]

Okay, well at least we've reached a spot that we can do something about. Also, remember that using a defensive strategy is not the only way to attack a packed defense, just one way. Also, you can keep control, but drop your d-line, use more support roles and come near to getting the same effect while still playing "control." It's just about creating space and FM gives up multiple ways to go about it.

As for knowing what you are seeing, that was one of the toughest things to learn, at least for me, with FM. What I still do when I start a match, is pause the match at key points, like when I am bringing the ball out of my defense, or transitioning to attack after recovering the ball, or transitioning to defense after losing it, or starting to set up in the offensive half. Stop the match and take a look at where everyone is, my players and their players. Are they where I want them to be? Are there passing options and to who and where? Who is marking who? Etc. Then run it a few more seconds, then look again. After a few times of doing this in games, you will start to see things. This is how I learned to "read" a match and what my tactic was doing, and I think it might help for you too.

[Dr. Hook]

I have one attacking role in my final third and I have a wing back on attack duty and striker is playing as CF Attack. which is the Inside Forward. Both my CMs are on Defend Duty. Do you think I have too much attacking duties in my team for defensive football. Would you suggest I tried Counter Attacking as well. I know Cleon wrote a thread on this area.

Would you suggest any TI when playing with a defensive mentality. I was reading this thread today and someone mentioned moving the ball through the lines and creating space. But how do you do that

James- in your case with a strong team, I don't think you need to worry about playing defensive football per se, rather you are using the defensive mentality to create a slower, more patient approach and stretch your opponents out. I would just try counter or defensive without changing anything at first and see how you get on. Pay attention to your attack and see if they are doing what you you want before making any changes to roles or duties. You might also look to move one CM to a support role also if you need a passing outlet, but again, just try changing mentality first and see what happens.

[herne79]

To me, there seems to be a degree of confusion between playing with a certain brand (or style) of football and using a certain mentality.

For example, using the "Defensive" mentality is not the same thing as playing defensive football. Defensive football is an amalgamation of several different things, including formation, mentality, player roles and duties, team and player instructions.

For example, using the "Counter" mentality is not the same thing as playing counter attacking football. Countering attacking football is an amalgamation of several different things, including formation, mentality, player roles and duties, team and player instructions.

For example, using the "Attacking" mentality is not the same thing as playing attacking football. Attacking football is an amalgamation of several different things, including formation, mentality, player roles and duties, team and player instructions.

I'm labouring the point here I know, but it's an extremely important distinction to make.

Mentality is simply a basic framework of Risk, nothing more, which can be used as one of the component parts to create a brand or style of football.

If you're following my "Back to Basics" thread, you'll see I'm trying to create a style of football - an aggressive, attacking style. I was saving the following for an update to that thread, but I'll briefly mention it here to help demonstrate; I'm currently using the Defensive mentality as one of the building blocks to help me achieve my aggressive attacking style. Originally I was using the Control mentality, but that proved to be overly ambitious at this stage of managing West Ham, so I knocked mentality back to Defensive and changed up TIs, roles and duties. I recently beat Liverpool 3-1 using my 4231 system, take a look:

Notice how high up the pitch my players are - it's an aggressive formation with tactical settings to match. Also notice not only how many shots I've had, but the quality of chances as well.

So, defensive mentality but not defensive football.

(I'll be updating my Back to Basics thread with full tactical details there).

[cfkllasdfaslkdfj]

Nice remark, herne79. I think the forum lacks basic simple guide (I know there are a lot from Cleon) explaining all styles of play (park the bus/defensive/counter attacking/combinative/possession/pressing/attacking) in the context of Mentality/Team Shape/TI/PI/DNA attributes for each line of players/best formations/roles (e.g. Regista for control/pressure manner).

[looping]

To me, there seems to be a degree of confusion between playing with a certain brand (or style) of football and using a certain mentality.

For example, using the "Defensive" mentality is not the same thing as playing defensive football. Defensive football is an amalgamation of several different things, including formation, mentality, player roles and duties, team and player instructions.

For example, using the "Counter" mentality is not the same thing as playing counter attacking football. Countering attacking football is an amalgamation of several different things, including formation, mentality, player roles and duties, team and player instructions.

For example, using the "Attacking" mentality is not the same thing as playing attacking football. Attacking football is an amalgamation of several different things, including formation, mentality, player roles and duties, team and player instructions.

I'm labouring the point here I know, but it's an extremely important distinction to make.

Mentality is simply a basic framework of Risk, nothing more, which can be used as one of the component parts to create a brand or style of football.

If you're following my "Back to Basics" thread, you'll see I'm trying to create a style of football - an aggressive, attacking style. I was saving the following for an update to that thread, but I'll briefly mention it here to help demonstrate; I'm currently using the Defensive mentality as one of the building blocks to help me achieve my aggressive attacking style. Originally I was using the Control mentality, but that proved to be overly ambitious at this stage of managing West Ham, so I knocked mentality back to Defensive and changed up TIs, roles and duties. I recently beat Liverpool 3-1 using my 4231 system, take a look:

Notice how high up the pitch my players are - it's an aggressive formation with tactical settings to match. Also notice not only how many shots I've had, but the quality of chances as well.

So, defensive mentality but not defensive football.

(I'll be updating my Back to Basics thread with full tactical details there).

Yes, i completely agree, but that is counterintuitive. Mentality is not another one of the instructions. Is THE INSTRUCTION, or, at least "primus inter pares". It affects everything. Even roles and duties (an attacking role is less attacking in counter mentality than in control).

In my opinion, mentalities should determine the style of play, and then, inside this style of play, you can tweak

[Guest]

This is fascinating stuff, really good thread. Personally, I would do away with mentalities completely, I think they can be confusing for the user, and I'd just let the tactics you employ define your overall mentality. I'd divide the tactical options per strata and do it that way, because then you can at least have visibility of whether your defence will play direct or short, depending on the tactic. I'd never have known how the passing for defence/forwards works per mentality had I not read it on here, there must be loads of FM users who don't visit the forum won't have seen the relevant posts.

Then your team mentality will be based on how you've set the tactics up. You want to play an attacking mentality? Set your defence to move the ball forward quickly, raise the tempo and press higher with more players on attack duties. You want to play more defensive? Drop the team deeper, play narrower, pack the midfield, etc.

Or... you still keep the set mentalities, but you give the user clear visibility as to exactly what they're doing. If I pick a mentality for my team, I'd prefer to see the difference in passing instructions between the defence, midfield and attack and a clear line on a pitch of where the defence will position itself with and without the ball. With the current UI it's all a bit cumbersome. I'm not suggesting bringing back sliders, but just something that'll make it more obvious what's actually happening to the different parts of your team when you switch mentalities.

[looping]

The best of everything is that i came here for help because i was unable to play fm succesfully. I'm still unable but i'm happy to see this is helping someone at least.

What i don't understand is how people who are not reading this forum can play fm. I've spent hours and hours to build something decent and i can't. No idea how other people do it.

If i post something here are you ready to help me again?

[cfkllasdfaslkdfj]

looping, because a huge amount of people just download successful tactics, try to buy cheap overpowered talents. To put it simply they want a result than tinkering with schemes.