mantralux Posted November 14, 2010 Share Posted November 14, 2010 Introduction This is an overview of all the (visible) player attributes in FM2011, hopefully explained as simple as possible. There are lots of misunderstandings about what certain attributes do, and how they translate into the match engine, and this article will explain them all. Types of Attributes There are three types of attributes; background, prime and secondary attributes. • Background attributes are attributes that are constant. They are either passive or active, and are always checked first by the match engine to see if the prime and secondary attributes should be used or not. Example; the determination attribute controls the length of time the player puts in an effort in a match. For every action, this attribute is checked to see if it’s passive or active (passive at the start of a match, active towards the end of a match), and then other attributes follow. • Prime attributes are attributes that controls the success of other attributes. They are simply defined by being responsible for the secondary attribute to be successful. Example; without the decisions attribute (prime), the passing attribute (secondary) will have little success, as the choice of where to place the pass is controlled by the prime attribute decisions. So even though the accuracy is good, the decision of where to aim is bad. • Secondary attributes are always tied in with a prime attribute, and are either accuracy or situation based. All actions a player performs in the game are a result of a string of attributes, usually starting out with one or more background attributes, then one or more prime attributes, and lastly one or more secondary attributes. Example – a player makes a short simple pass: Background attributes > Creativity (prime) > Decisions (prime) > Passing (secondary) Background attributes decide if the pass is even made in the first place. Creativity presents the player with X amount of options. Decisions controls what option the player goes for. Passing controls the accuracy of the pass in the end. There are several background attributes in play, either passive or active…but in its simplest form, those attributes are the requirement for a short simple pass. Another example – a player takes a shot at goal: Background attributes > Creativity (prime) > Technique (prime) > Decisions (prime) > Composure (secondary) > Finishing (secondary) Teamwork (background) decides if the shot is in the best interest of the team or not. Determination (background) decides if the player will even perform the shot (he might have given up trying). Creativity presents the player with X amount of options. Technique decides the range of options as to what type of shot the player can perform. Decisions controls how well the decision is to shoot (and where to aim). Composure controls how well the player makes his choices under pressure, and finishing controls the accuracy of the shot in the end. Technical Attributes In this category there is only one prime attribute; technique, and there are no background attributes. All other attributes in this section are secondary, and they’re all accuracy based. Corners – Accuracy of a corner kick Secondary to the anticipation (how will my teammates move) and decisions (where do I place the corner) prime attributes. Crossing – Accuracy of a cross Secondary to the anticipation (how will my teammates move) and decisions (when and where will I place the cross) prime attributes. Dribbling – Accuracy of a dribble Secondary to the anticipation (how will my opponent move) and technique (do I have the trick in my repertoire) prime attributes. Finishing – Accuracy of a shot at goal Secondary to the composure (will I make a calm decision under pressure), technique (do I have the type of shot in my repertoire) and decisions (where will I place the shot, when will I shoot and what kind of shot do I use) prime attributes. First Touch – How well a player controls the ball upon receiving it As soon as a player receives the ball, this attribute decides how well he controls the ball in order to do what he wants to do. Secondary to the creativity (what options do I have to choose between) and decisions (what is the best option) prime attributes, as he has to make a choice while the ball is on its way towards him. Free Kick Taking – Accuracy of a free kick Secondary to the technique (do I have the type of free kick in my repertoire) and decisions (where do I place the free kick) prime attributes. Heading – Accuracy of a header Secondary to the anticipation (where will the ball end up), and decisions (how and where will I head the ball) prime attributes. Long Shots – Accuracy of a long shot Secondary to the creativity (what options do I have), technique (do I have the type of shot in my repertoire) and decisions (where will I place the shot) prime attributes. Long Throws – Accuracy and length of a long throw Secondary to the decisions (where will I aim my throw) prime attribute. Marking – How well a player marks an opposition player Used closely with the tackling attribute to decide how well a player defends against an opponent. It also controls how well a player understands his zone. Passing – Accuracy of a pass Secondary to the anticipation (how will my teammates move), creativity (what options do I have) and decisions (when, how and to whom will I distribute my pass) prime attributes. Penalty Taking – Accuracy of a spot kick Secondary to the decisions (where will I place the penalty kick) and composure (will I keep calm under pressure) prime attributes. Tackling – Accuracy and timing of a tackle Secondary to the decisions (how and when will I make my tackle) prime attribute. Technique – Prime Attribute – The width of the player’s repertoire The easiest way to describe technique is that it controls the width of the player’s technical range. The higher the attribute, the more the player can actually do with the ball. As an example; if a player wants to shoot a Roberto Carlos type banana shot, he has to have it in his repertoire, and that’s where the technique attribute comes in. Mental Attributes Most of the prime attributes are in this category. The secondary attributes are mostly situation specific, like bravery and influence. Aggression – How combative a player is A high attribute means an energetic and forceful player. A low attribute means a docile and unassertive player. This has little to do with how violent a player is, which is more controlled by invisible attributes like dirtiness and sportsmanship. Anticipation – Prime Attribute – The prediction of other player’s movements Otherwise known as being able to ‘read the game’. Anticipation is used when performing actions that involves other outfield players, like passing, crossing, intercepting, etc. In chess, it’s the ability to predict what moves the opponent will perform in X amount of turns. Bravery – The sacrifice a player will make to gain an advantage Or translated into FM terms; how much a player is willing to risk injury in order to win a ball, not concede a goal, etc. Composure – How well a player performs under pressure Pressure means pressure from opposition players, but also pressure to score or pass in an important moment. Secondary to the decisions (am I calm enough to make the correct decision) prime attribute. Concentration – (Background) – How long the player will make correct decisions A high attribute means the player will use his decisions and anticipation prime attributes better throughout the length of a match. A low attribute means the player will make more mistakes (essentially not utilise his decisions and anticipation attributes well). Creativity – Prime Attribute – Controls the mental repertoire A prime attribute similar to the technique attribute, controlling the width of the players mental repertoire. In order to make a certain decision, the player must know the choice even exists in the first place. This is where creativity comes in – it decides how many choices a player can choose between. A high attribute means more choices. Decisions – Prime Attribute – Controls the quality of decisions the player makes Also a prime attribute, and this is one of the most important attributes in the game. A player is constantly presented with options, and the decisions attribute controls if the player chooses the best option. It also controls how and when an option is performed. Decision is what, when and how. Even though it’s a prime attribute, it’s secondary to the creativity (what are the options) and technique (what am I able to do technically) prime attributes. Determination – (Background) – How long the player will give 100% in a match A low determination attribute means a player ‘gives up’ earlier. High attribute means the player would fight until the end. Flair – Controls the players tendency to do the unexpected Flair means ‘style’ or ‘originality’, but in Football Manager it simply translates into players doing unexpected things. Which essentially means the ability to override an opponents anticipation skill. Secondary to the creativity (what options do I have), decisions (what is the best option) prime attributes, and whatever accuracy attribute needed at the end of the action. Influence – Decides if a player makes a good captain Unlike many theories and speculations, this attribute is very simple; it’s used for deciding a captain at the club. A low attribute means the other players won’t respect the decision of who is captain, or listen to him in emergency meetings. A captain with a high influence attribute creates harmony in the squad. Off The Ball – How well the player utilises space when not in possession of the ball This attribute is not only important for a player to make himself available for a pass or assist, but also for a player to draw opposition players away from their positions, creating space and opportunities for his teammates. Secondary to the decisions (when, how and where should I move) prime attribute. Positioning – The accuracy of a players position This attribute controls how well a player positions himself, depending on what’s going on around him. Secondary to the anticipation (how will others move around me) and decisions (where should I be) prime attributes. Teamwork – (Background) – Controls the player ego A low attribute means the player will put his own best interest before the best interests of the team, like trying to shoot for goal instead of passing to a team mate, even though the team mate might be in a better position to score. A high attribute means the player would base decisions on what is best for the team, not what is best for himself. Work Rate – (Background) – Decides how often a player is active A low attribute means the player would not spend too much time in off the ball decisions, and rather wait for an opportunity to arise instead of trying to create the situation himself. A high attribute means the player would make himself available and involve himself in play as much as possible. Physical Attributes Acceleration – How fast a player can reach his maximum speed Used together with the pace attribute, it decides how fast the player can reach his maximum pace. Agility – How easily a player moves A low attribute means the player is ‘sluggish’. A high attribute means the player is nimble and light-footed. Balance – Controls how long a player can keep on his feet under pressure Often used together with strength in shoulder to shoulder situations, and decides if a player can keep on his feet through pressure situations like tackles, etc. A high attribute means that the player will be able to stay on his feet for longer. Jumping – Maximum height a player can reach Jumping is how far a player can get his head from the ground. Height is also taken into account, deciding whether or not the player needs to jump in the first place. Two players with the exact same attribute will have the ability to reach the same height when jumping off the ground. Natural Fitness – Decline and recovery of physical attributes Long term attribute that controls the level of decline when it comes to the physical attributes. It also controls how well a player returns from injury. Essentially, a high attribute means a longer career and faster recovery from injuries. Pace – Decides the maximum speed Loosely secondary to the decisions (when should I utilise my speed) prime attribute. Stamina – Decides the rate of decline of the players condition The higher this attribute is, the longer a player can keep going without getting tired. It’s fully connected to the match condition of the player. Strength – Player sturdiness Only used in conjunction with an opposition player, helping to decide who wins a tackle, shoulder to shoulder situation, etc. Summary Background attributes control if the action is even performed in the first place. Concentration – Am I aware of what’s happening so I can use my anticipation and decisions attributes? Determination – Am I still determined to use my skills, or have I given up? Teamwork – Am I performing this action in the best interest of the team, or in the best interest of myself? Work Rate – Will I create this situation, or will I wait for someone else to create it for me? Prime attributes control the success rate of an action. Technique – Am I able to perform this action, do I have it in my repertoire? Anticipation – Will I be able to predict the next move? Creativity – Do I know what the options are? Decisions – What, how and where will I perform the action? All other attributes are accuracy or situation based. Original article found here: http://www.mantralux.com/player-attributes-explained/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadatherion Posted November 14, 2010 Share Posted November 14, 2010 Nice and very useful article, mantralux, thank you. I noticed, however, something that always made me wonder, and I'll take the chance to ask: you say aggression isn't directly related to violent behaviour on the pitch, which should be more related to dirtiness and sportsmanship (makes sense in theory). Yet, when you scold a player for taking a red card - and said player reacts nicely admitting he was at fault - often the immediate effect is a 1 point loss in aggression. Shouldn't this point out that attribute and violent behaviour actually are closely related? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paperclips Posted November 14, 2010 Share Posted November 14, 2010 good thread mate, should come in useful. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mantralux Posted November 14, 2010 Author Share Posted November 14, 2010 I noticed, however, something that always made me wonder, and I'll take the chance to ask: you say aggression isn't directly related to violent behaviour on the pitch, which should be more related to dirtiness and sportsmanship (makes sense in theory). Yet, when you scold a player for taking a red card - and said player reacts nicely admitting he was at fault - often the immediate effect is a 1 point loss in aggression. Shouldn't this point out that attribute and violent behaviour actually are closely related? I might have worded it slightly wrong...what I'm saying is that aggression isn't the only attribute that controls violence. But, just because you would lose a point when the player says he'll behave, doesn't mean it's related to violence. Instead, if the aggression attribute lowers, it's because aggression controls how forceful he is....and the more forceful he is, the more cards he will get. So the lowering of an attribute means he will be slightly more cautious, which makes sense. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NepentheZ Posted November 14, 2010 Share Posted November 14, 2010 So with most of the prime attributes being in the mental category, does this mean a player with high mental and average technical attributes would far out class a player with high technical and average mental attributes, thus, meaning older players (I guess from the ages of 28 and upwards) - would more often than not be better than young players, physical attributes aside, and perhaps showing reason as to why so many teams on FM games are so reluctant to bring through youth, and have squads full of golden oldies for years? It's very interesting, to say the least. It also makes me think you can design a team to work like a machine if using these theories correctly. For example, in lower league management (Which I am currently involved in on my FM11 save) - I could find a guy with good mental attributes, and perhaps 2 key technical attributes, and have him excel in his role, and do this over a number of players, and have almost specialist players for every position? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadatherion Posted November 14, 2010 Share Posted November 14, 2010 I see, thanks mantralux for the explanation And yes NepentheZ, this whole pattern of prime attributes influencing technical ones would definitely explain why a player with high mental stats does usually outperform a technically gifted but "inexperienced" one, which is something we already noticed since a while now. This is the first time afaik someone was able to put down a clear cause-effect table of relations between attributes though, and definitely it seems very interesting: even if I already considered mental stats as very important, seeing how an attribute such as Decisions would turn out to tip the balance of so many actions will definitely make me reconsider a lot of what I look for before buying a certain player. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kazza Posted November 14, 2010 Share Posted November 14, 2010 Whilst this looks interesting; can I ask why you think these attributes fit into the categories you mentioned or how indeed you know they do? I see a lot of good threads but sometimes wonder how people know that's how the game works and that their interpretation is correct. Most of what you have produced is common sense in that acceleration = how fast you can move etc. But it is this that intrigues me “There are three types of attributes; background, prime and secondary attributes.” How do we know this and what can we do about it? Is it random? You say that the background attributes are constant and are passive or active! So using your example of determination how would I know if that attribute was checked at the start or active towards the end. Without going through all the other attributes you have listed and where they fit, the basic question for me is how to use this information or is it just hidden background when the ME starts and that we have no influence over e.g so when we make substitution will that trigger a background attribute in the player? K ps thank you for the involved work it is an interesting read. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mantralux Posted November 14, 2010 Author Share Posted November 14, 2010 Most of what you have produced is common sense in that acceleration = how fast you can move etc. But it is this that intrigues me “There are three types of attributes; background, prime and secondary attributes.”How do we know this and what can we do about it? It's just broadly divided into three categories, to simplify the explanation. The point of this article is to have an explanation that is as simple as possible, so you can use it as a reference. Dividing the attributes into categories explaining the order of how they work seemed to be the easiest way to understand how attributes interact with each other. Is it random? You say that the background attributes are constant and are passive or active! So using your example of determination how would I know if that attribute was checked at the start or active towards the end. When it comes to background attributes, they are checked every time a player performs an action, to see if they should be applied or not. If we take determination as an example, the attribute controls the willingness of the player to perform actions, depending on when he is in the match. A low attribute means he will give up earlier, so that would mean the point where the determination attribute becomes 'active'. Without going through all the other attributes you have listed and where they fit, the basic question for me is how to use this information or is it just hidden background when the ME starts and that we have no influence over e.g so when we make substitution will that trigger a background attribute in the player? Knowing what the attributes do is mostly important for scouting and picking a team. With the above information you will be able to figure out the strengths and weaknesses of your team, and therefor be able to be more successful at moulding a tactic around your players. However, during gameplay there are several other factors that influences behaviour, like form, morale, fitness, etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mantralux Posted November 14, 2010 Author Share Posted November 14, 2010 Also, don't forget to read the manual: http://www.footballmanager.com/manual/172 The descriptions in the manual are slightly cryptic and vague, and that's one of the reason I wanted to write a more detailed description of the attributes and how they translate to a players mind in the match engine. =) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
higgins Posted November 14, 2010 Share Posted November 14, 2010 I read this with interest but maybe you should point out this is just your own theory, notably the part where you talk about 3 main categories of attributes and how they work. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mantralux Posted November 14, 2010 Author Share Posted November 14, 2010 I read this with interest but maybe you should point out this is just your own theory, notably the part where you talk about 3 main categories of attributes and how they work. Of course it is, everything on this forum is speculation. Some based on fact, some based on opinion. The categories are there to simplify an explanation, not to claim that the developers had that thought process when creating the attributes. No one should assume that anything posted here or on any other FM forum is fact, unless it's actually the developer posting it. =) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flohrinho Posted November 14, 2010 Share Posted November 14, 2010 So first of nice article and thanks for the info. But here is a question which attribute are my players lacking when they are alone through on goal but hit the ball awfully wide and I don't mean a few inches over the goal I'm speaking of out of the stadium shots. Is this a composure problem or a shooting/technique problem? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenko_EFC Posted November 14, 2010 Share Posted November 14, 2010 I'd take another look at your influence explanation. Take a look at this thread. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mantralux Posted November 14, 2010 Author Share Posted November 14, 2010 So first of nice article and thanks for the info.But here is a question which attribute are my players lacking when they are alone through on goal but hit the ball awfully wide and I don't mean a few inches over the goal I'm speaking of out of the stadium shots. Is this a composure problem or a shooting/technique problem? Composure is the ability to perform under pressure, and a one-on-one situation is just that: pressure to score. Decision will control when and how to shoot, and also where to aim. And finally your shooting attribute will decide the accuracy of the shot. Composure affects the other two attributes, and there are many other factors to the equation, like tiredness and form (confidence). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mantralux Posted November 14, 2010 Author Share Posted November 14, 2010 I'd take another look at your influence explanation. Take a look at this thread. I've seen that thread, and with all due respect to SFraser, the influence attribute has absolutely nothing to do with influencing other players decisions around you, and that has been confirmed to me by PaulC, who made the match engine. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
higgins Posted November 14, 2010 Share Posted November 14, 2010 I've seen that thread, and with all due respect to SFraser, the influence attribute has absolutely nothing to do with influencing other players decisions around you, and that has been confirmed to me by PaulC, who made the match engine. Agree, SFraser has got a fervid imagination. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
blazingfield Posted November 15, 2010 Share Posted November 15, 2010 useful thread would explain why jenas got a decent passing ability but always makes the wrong pass! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xcel Posted November 15, 2010 Share Posted November 15, 2010 Fantastic!! Very informative, thanks mate Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Who Posted November 15, 2010 Share Posted November 15, 2010 You've got the preamble for Jumping right, but then draw the wrong conclusion Jumping – Maximum height a player can reachJumping is how far a player can get his head from the ground. Height is also taken into account, deciding whether or not the player needs to jump in the first place, but it also serves as a measuring point. The height of the player is point A, and the jumping attribute is point B. Which essentially means that if two players have a jumping attribute of 20, but player A is 20cm taller, player A will jump 20cm higher. Jumping is as you say, how high a player can reach. Thus 2 players with equal Jumping will be able to reach equally high when jumping, no matter what their physical heights are. I'm a researcher, so I'm certain about that. ;-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mantralux Posted November 15, 2010 Author Share Posted November 15, 2010 Jumping is as you say, how high a player can reach. Thus 2 players with equal Jumping will be able to reach equally high when jumping, no matter what their physical heights are. Not according to PaulC, who created the match engine. Don't have the quote with me, but he has said that height is a factor, and that a tall player will be able to jump higher. All explained in this thread: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/235979-Does-Height-matter? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DivineOne Posted November 15, 2010 Share Posted November 15, 2010 Not according to PaulC, who created the match engine. Don't have the quote with me, but he has said that height is a factor, and that a tall player will be able to jump higher. All explained in this thread: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/235979-Does-Height-matter? Height is a factor and it isn't. The taller the player is, the higher their jumping attribute is, but height itself isn't used in the ME. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mantralux Posted November 15, 2010 Author Share Posted November 15, 2010 height itself isn't used in the ME. Yes it is, it decides whether or not a player needs to jump for the ball or not. And it wouldn't make sense if the equation was as simple as height = jumping, because then we wouldn't have to have a jumping attribute at all. If two players are equally good at jumping, a taller player will obviously reach higher. But it's all pointless, because very rarely do a player just jump from a stand still position, without any opponents closing him down. As soon as the player is moving or is under pressure, several other attributes come into play and become more important than the jumping attribute. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DivineOne Posted November 15, 2010 Share Posted November 15, 2010 Yes it is, it decides whether or not a player needs to jump for the ball or not. And it wouldn't make sense if the equation was as simple as height = jumping, because then we wouldn't have to have a jumping attribute at all. But that's not what I said, is it. jumping attribute = height + jumping. So a 2m50 player that can't get of the ground can have 20 for jumping while a 1m50 player that jumps like a basketballer can also have 20 for jumping. It's all about how high they can reach. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mantralux Posted November 15, 2010 Author Share Posted November 15, 2010 But that's not what I said, is it. You said that the taller a player is, the higher his jumping attribute is. Which is translated into height = jumping. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DivineOne Posted November 15, 2010 Share Posted November 15, 2010 You said that the taller a player is, the higher his jumping attribute is. Which is translated into height = jumping. Then you are really bad in translating tbh. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mantralux Posted November 15, 2010 Author Share Posted November 15, 2010 Then you are really bad in translating tbh. You're saying that the taller a player is, the higher his jumping attribute is, claiming that they are fully linked. No? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DivineOne Posted November 15, 2010 Share Posted November 15, 2010 http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/238231-Player-Attributes-Explained?p=6136398&viewfull=1#post6136398 Can't make it more clear than this tbh. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mantralux Posted November 15, 2010 Author Share Posted November 15, 2010 http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/238231-Player-Attributes-Explained?p=6136398&viewfull=1#post6136398Can't make it more clear than this tbh. The 150cm player won't reach as high as the 250cm player, even if both have a 20 jumping attribute. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Who Posted November 15, 2010 Share Posted November 15, 2010 The 150cm player won't reach as high as the 250cm player, even if both have a 20 jumping attribute. Because a 150cm player will never get a 20 for Jumping (at least if the researcher has done his job properly). A 150 cm player with a truly fantastic leap would only get around 8 or something in Jumping (without consulting the guidelines for the exact figure). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Who Posted November 15, 2010 Share Posted November 15, 2010 Not according to PaulC, who created the match engine. Don't have the quote with me, but he has said that height is a factor, and that a tall player will be able to jump higher. All explained in this thread: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/235979-Does-Height-matter? Yes, PaulC is correct, because researchers are instructed to take height into account when determining the Jumping attribute for a player. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mantralux Posted November 15, 2010 Author Share Posted November 15, 2010 Doctor Who, if I understand you correctly, you are claiming that the following statement is true: There is a maximum height, a physical limit on how high a player can jump. Lets, for discussions sake, say this limit is 300cm up in the air. The jumping attribute of 20 means that the player can reach 300cm with the top of his head, regardless of his height. Doesn't matter if he's 210cm tall or 158cm short, a 20 attribute will always mean he is able to reach 300cm when jumping up in the air. True or false? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Who Posted November 15, 2010 Share Posted November 15, 2010 True, although it isn't defined exactly that way. An average high player with average leaping ability would get a Jumping stat of 10 or 11. Had he been 4 inches shorter with good leaping ability, he'd get around 9. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NepentheZ Posted November 15, 2010 Share Posted November 15, 2010 I don't think he can make it clearer than that - Pretty easy to understand. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mantralux Posted November 15, 2010 Author Share Posted November 15, 2010 That's where we disagree then, because I think that statement is false, and here's why: You're saying the jumping attribute is measured as in the left panel, whereas I'm saying it's measured like in the right panel. If the jumping attribute would have been measured as an invincible ceiling, then that would mean that all tall players automatically have bad leaps, and it's just their height that makes them reach high. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenko_EFC Posted November 15, 2010 Share Posted November 15, 2010 A smaller person with 20 jumping reachers the same height as a bigger person with 20 jumping. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NepentheZ Posted November 15, 2010 Share Posted November 15, 2010 A smaller person with 20 jumping reachers the same height as a bigger person with 20 jumping. Exactly this, but as Doctor Who stated, you wont see a smaller person with 20 jumping. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mantralux Posted November 15, 2010 Author Share Posted November 15, 2010 Exactly this, but as Doctor Who stated, you wont see a smaller person with 20 jumping. This would mean that all tall players automatically have a terrible leap, which isn't the case. If two people have the same ability to jump, a taller player will always reach higher, as he's higher to begin with. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenko_EFC Posted November 15, 2010 Share Posted November 15, 2010 Tim Cahill is a good example; the researcher gave him 14 for jumping despite his tremendous leap because he doesn't reach as high as someone like Peter Crouch when both at full stretch. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NepentheZ Posted November 15, 2010 Share Posted November 15, 2010 This would mean that all tall players automatically have a terrible leap, which isn't the case. If two people have the same ability to jump, a taller player will always reach higher, as he's higher to begin with. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying, he's telling you how it is on the game. Which is how the ME decides. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LatZee Posted November 15, 2010 Share Posted November 15, 2010 This would mean that all tall players automatically have a terrible leap, which isn't the case. If two people have the same ability to jump, a taller player will always reach higher, as he's higher to begin with. Which is irrelevant as what is called Jumping by the game has nothing to do with jumping, it is in fact reach - just like you said, the invisible ceiling, the absolute height player can reach when jumping. You are getting confused by the wrong name it has, just like many researchers were for years, that's why this year's databases is so heavily corrected for that height=>jumping correlation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mantralux Posted November 15, 2010 Author Share Posted November 15, 2010 I'm happy to alter the last part of the description in the article if the left panel is the correct measurement, will try to get confirmation from a developer. =) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LatZee Posted November 15, 2010 Share Posted November 15, 2010 Or you could just use your head if height is chief decider of jumping ability given to players (and I do hope you agree with that, why else would players like Crouch have 20) then using height again would be double dipping, you would use height twice in the calculation. That would be moronic Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mantralux Posted November 15, 2010 Author Share Posted November 15, 2010 Or you could just use your head if height is chief decider of jumping ability given to players (and I do hope you agree with that, why else would players like Crouch have 20) then using height again would be double dipping, you would use height twice in the calculation. That would be moronic Why not just check with the person who actually created the match engine. "Using my head" made me interpret the previous discussions and comments from devs as if the second alternative is the correct one. I've already used my head, now it's time to use the PM function instead. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenko_EFC Posted November 15, 2010 Share Posted November 15, 2010 If height + Jumping was how high a player would get. Tim Cahill would have 20 for Jumping. It'd be unfair if he had 20 because, at full stretch, he can't get to the height of Crouch and co, at full jump. Why is this so hard to understand and need confirmation? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mantralux Posted November 15, 2010 Author Share Posted November 15, 2010 If height + Jumping was how high a player would get. Tim Cahill would have 20 for Jumping. It'd be unfair if he had 20 because, at full stretch, he can't get to the height of Crouch and co, at full jump. Why is this so hard to understand and need confirmation? That's not what I'm saying, I'm discussing where the jumping attribute measures from, that's all. My interpretation of previous comments from devs was that it's measured with height as a starting point, but some are saying that the ground is the starting point. It's not hard to understand, I've just interpreted it differently, and why not confirm it with the definitive person if I can? It would clear it up once and for all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan99 Posted November 15, 2010 Share Posted November 15, 2010 All the Arsenal players are 10cm tall, with a jumping of 20. All the Aston Villa players are 200cm tall, but with a jumping of 1. Every other attribute was set to 10. http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/1320/astonvillavarsenalanaly.png http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/1320/astonvillavarsenalanaly.png Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Who Posted November 15, 2010 Share Posted November 15, 2010 all the arsenal players are 10cm tall, with a jumping of 20. All the aston villa players are 200cm tall, but with a jumping of 1. Every other attribute was set to 10.http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/1320/astonvillavarsenalanaly.png http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/1320/astonvillavarsenalanaly.png lol. Q.e.d. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
heathxxx Posted November 15, 2010 Share Posted November 15, 2010 all the arsenal players are 10cm tall, with a jumping of 20. All the aston villa players are 200cm tall, but with a jumping of 1. Every other attribute was set to 10.http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/1320/astonvillavarsenalanaly.png http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/1320/astonvillavarsenalanaly.png lol.Q.e.d. Must admit, that did make me chuckle. Looks like the midgets-on-springs have it then! Also adds importance to why researchers were asked to take jumping into account when looking at player height. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mantralux Posted November 16, 2010 Author Share Posted November 16, 2010 Removed the last sentence from the jumping explanation. =) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted November 16, 2010 Share Posted November 16, 2010 First of all a good thread, however I have a few issues with the things you say; They are either passive or active, and are always checked first by the match engine to see if the prime and secondary attributes should be used or not. Example; the determination attribute controls the length of time the player puts in an effort in a match That's is not true at all, that would be work rate that determines the effort a player puts into a match. This reflects the player’s mental drive to work hard. A high rating will ensure a player wants to work his socks off from start to finish, but he will need the necessary physical attributes to actually be able to pull it off. Nonetheless, it is an admirable trait to have in your team Then concentration would determine how switched on he'd be for the full 90 minutes. Detmernination is ; A commitment to succeed. A determined player will give everything in order to win. This ties in with Bravery – players with a high attribute in one of these attributes may also be high in the other as the traits necessary are similar. So determination will have an impact on how much someone wants to win that 50% ball, make the 50 yard run if he needs to and etc. How successful he is and the outcome though depends on a lot of other variables. But determination isn't as you mentioned above. Example; without the decisions attribute (prime), the passing attribute (secondary) will have little success, as the choice of where to place the pass is controlled by the prime attribute decisions. So even though the accuracy is good, the decision of where to aim is bad Partly true but you can't mention those stats without mentioning creativity and flair. That will determine the type of pass available and then decisions will be used to make what the player thinks will be the correct choice. • Secondary attributes are always tied in with a prime attribute, and are either accuracy or situation based.All actions a player performs in the game are a result of a string of attributes, usually starting out with one or more background attributes, then one or more prime attributes, and lastly one or more secondary attributes. Example – a player makes a short simple pass:Background attributes > Creativity (prime) > Decisions (prime) > Passing (secondary) I think you've made 1 more catergory than is really needed. Basically their is two types of attributes, prime and secondary. The background attributes you mentioned would fall under the prime ones imo as they are relevant to everything a player does always. The secondary attributes are situational so their is no need for a 3rd catergory. As for all the heading and jumping debate happening the way the game uses this data was changed for FM08 so it does infact use player height now. Here is how it works; Heading This is a player’s competence in aerial situations. Heading applies to all situations and is only about the player’s ability to head the ball well. Jumping (and to a lesser extent Strength) plays a big part in combination with heading to utilize the attribute to a greater level, as well as a player’s height. Jumping This attribute related to how high a player can jump from a standing start. That was from PaulC himself You might want to have a read of my thread if you haven't already as I go into quite a bit more detail about the attributes and how they actually work in a game situation http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/216801-Explanation-of-the-Impact-of-Player-Attributes-During-Match-Play Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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