Regens are too good, yes another one.

This is after 3 sets of regens.

I don't think anything else needs to be said other than that if there were that many players that could become that good in real life it'd be an unreal sport.

Also I'll add, I have 1688 regens with PA's over 150. OH.MY.GOD.

I hope this is fixed.

Also alexyfoot's proof:

His save in 2023:

Start of the game:

The comparison is incredible.

You've probably loaded too many leagues/nations/players or something. I've noticed in the past the more leagues or nations you load, the more potential stars there are for your disposal. I must admit though, I never would have imagined that it'd be possible for a situation to occur whereby there are 1688 regens out there of >150 PA in only 3 years. Even with the whole (but how many will actually reach their PA, I think it's very safe to say that that number is far and away too high.

I haven't actually played FM 12 yet, but as far as I' aware, this isn't a problem on any other versions (I'm not certain though as I don't tend to use genie scout too look at things like PA). I've seen plenty of people complain about regens being too good on FM12, and I'd say this is proof of it. I might just have a little into FM10 regens myself now, as this does have me intrigued.

Yes most won't reach their peak but the very fact that the game suggests so many players with that much potential can appear in just 3 years worth is astonishing. I only loaded around 60-70k players and yet I find myself with this ridiculous amount of super regens.

I think it's safe to say most of those in the picture with the highest PA's will reach close to peak.

60-70K seems a lot of players to me. I never play a game with more than 20K loaded, but I guess I play on an oldish computer and don't want my game to run too slowly.

Fair enough, I just like to have the variety.

I think if I were to go in to some real analysis of this on age group PA's compared to real life etc the issue would really stand out. If there is so many regens cropping up so quickly with this much potential why is there no where near this level with real youngsters in the game?

I think your numbers speak for themselves in this issue. I'm going to have a look at this for FM 10 now. What leagues/nations do you usually load? For my little investigation I've just loaded the top leagues from 9 countries (Argentina, Brazil, England, Germany, Italy, France, Spain, Netherlands and Portugal), which are the 9 leagues I consider the best and most likely leagues for the best young talent too emerge in. That added up to 43K players. So I'll give it 3 years of holyday and see what get's thrown up.

well stop looking on fm scout and fmrte and you wouldnt know

This is what I've got going for my current save at the moment:

However I have quite a few leagues on view-only, not quite sure how many though.

I remember FM10 though, that was a game where I found regens brilliant, the balance was always very good for me.

well stop looking on fm scout and fmrte and you wouldnt know

REALLY?

I used Genie Scout for evidence, if I didn't I would have no backup to the argument and how can you even say this? Can't you see the regens are overrated, I spotted this easily without any tools and others have as well.

Terrible redundant thread. At the start of the game there are 1588 players in my database with over 150 PA. In 2018 there are 2283... Its larger, but hardly important. The overall database is also larger. If on the other hand it had gone from 1500 to 4000, then maybe that's a serious issue worth half a dozen nearly identical threads.

Difference is that's not over a period of 3 years, they're players ranging from ages 16-40 something at the start of the database.

And there are not going to be over 10 players in the next 3 years with Messi/C.Ronaldo potentials.

I wonder why no one from SI is responding to this issue specifically? I am observing the same trend (55k players loaded, 8 leagues playable I think). Players in 2022 are better quality on average than they are in 2011. I mean, it is not a deal-breaker, it doesn't make FM12 unplayable but I find it a bit optimistic

It may be SI's attempt to help the long term game. If there are more quality players coming through you can't sign them all, leaving greater scope for other top clubs to build quality squads over time.

Terrible redundant thread. At the start of the game there are 1588 players in my database with over 150 PA. In 2018 there are 2283... Its larger, but hardly important. The overall database is also larger. If on the other hand it had gone from 1500 to 4000, then maybe that's a serious issue worth half a dozen nearly identical threads.

So 700 new players with EPL potential in just 6 years are a neglegible thing to you?

It's +50% FFS!!!

Also take into account how many older players who had already peaked have retired... so there are probably even MORE talented newgens being created...

For argument's sake let's just assume many of those, with a low starting CA and obscure reputation, won't make it and will go undetected by AI managers (as if...).

Even in the case of only 1 in 10 will fulfill his potential, we'd still get a ridiculous amount of top players. Flawed probably, but once the original players are all retired, the flaws of the newgens will eventually even out and become the norm.

That is what I was thinking but I am not sure Certainly the game is still fun even with a top side and a few seasons in so it is an improvement than pravious versions where regens didn't develop into good enough players and the overall avarage quality dropped compared to start of the game.

The game just isn't going to be as interesting if I see this many talented players.

Spread those 190-200 PA to one top club each at peak and Inter, R.Madrid, Barcelona, Man United, Arsenal, Chelsea, Milan, Juventus, PSG, Bayern and Dortmund etc all have a Messi/Ronaldo each. And then I go 12 years in to the future and I find myself with somewhere around 48 more players with a PA of 190-200? How can you even defend that?

And then if I times 1688 by just another 3 then in 9 years of regens I've got a whopping 5064 players with PA's of over 150 and most of the first set would probably be only around 28?

It's not convenient.

There are so many things wrong with what you just said.

7 years into the game as I said there was only ~2200 up from 1500 at the start. How on earth does that give you a figure of 5000 after 9 years? Oh that's right, by doing something bizarre mathematically. Strangely enough in my other save in 2016 (5 years into the game) there is ~2100 with over 150. So... It rises, but it seems to reach an equilibrium quite quickly.

Actually... Let's see what I can do here. I have some backups to look at, so here is the number of players with 150+ PA each year that I can find in my save upto 2018:

Initial: 1588

2012: 1786 (+198)

2013: 1710 (-76)

2014: 1877 (+91)

2015: 1983 (+106)

2016: 2117 (+134)

2017: 2206 (+89)

2018: 2283 (+77)

Additionally here is 190+ PA:

Initial: 5

2012: 7 (+2)

2013: 8 (+1)

2014: 10 (+2)

2015: 11 (+1)

2016: 12 (+0)

2017: 12 (+0)

2018: 12 (+0)

Where you get 48 Messi like players from is beyond me... Actually it isn't, you're fitting a linear relation to something that is clearly non linear. In fact as I mentioned it should slow down and stop, as is clearly seen in the data. Its very easy to criticise using hyperbole though and you seem to like using such cheap tactics to get your point across.

Overall we can conclude that the number of top quality players does rise from the start of the game, but not to a gamebreaking degree. In order to understand its overall effects however more seasons are needed, however it seems that the game reaches an equilibrium of the number of top quality player.

Ah yes, I have made major **** ups.

However the rise is quite clearly too much, there is far too much quality appearing, how can you say an increase of just under 700 players with PA's that high over 8 seasons worth isn't ridiculous?

And to see the top, top level players increase rate go over double in such a short time is amazing as well. No chance should there be 12 players with PA's that high so quick.

OK, I am in year 2023. Genie filter shows 289 players with CA>170 (42000 players loaded), of them only 17 are real footballers. 71 are from Brazil or have dual Brazil nationality.

Same leagues loaded in 2011 shows 33 players with CA>170. 2 are from Brazil.

Do I need to say anything more?

http://postimage.org/image/vw9nyie05/

http://postimage.org/image/c8tssoe3f/

I reckon the issue is so big it needs a hotfix...waiting for the transfer update is quite late for me.

Hahaha, wonderful, that.

7 years into the game as I said there was only ~2200 up from 1500 at the start. How on earth does that give you a figure of 5000 after 9 years? Oh that's right, by doing something bizarre mathematically. Strangely enough in my other save in 2016 (5 years into the game) there is ~2100 with over 150. So... It rises, but it seems to reach an equilibrium quite quickly.

7 years into the game, and that figure has increased 700 over that time (equating to 100 more each year). That is a problem imo. Not quite as drastic as what ArsenalMan has suggested, but really should the figure roughly stay the same. There's only a finite amount of footballers there can be in the game World as there are no more clubs proping up, so why is it that one the whole they're getting better? (or at least they're potential is getting better)

7 years into the game, and that figure has increased 700 over that time (equating to 100 more each year). That is a problem imo. Not quite as drastic as what ArsenalMan has suggested, but really should the figure roughly stay the same. There's only a finite amount of footballers there can be in the game World as there are no more clubs proping up, so why is it that one the whole they're getting better? (or at least they're potential is getting better)

Would you please look at my post and again say it isn't serious?

ArsenalFan - btw keeping the same level doesn't work either because this leads to 2-3 clubs dominance - we have seen it time and time again, and there have been numerous complaints about newgen quaity in the past.. If I take my example from above with 33 starting "stars" - If we have something like 70 that would be great for the game to keep AI teams competitive. 33 simply won't cut it as the human team will have 10-15 of them and will dominate all leagues. But 290 is simply too much.

I really would like some response from the SI guys in the forum, I know they are reading threads like this. And I am sure many of us would expect a response to such a "bug" (if I can use the term, it might be entirely intentional, don't know).

Many of my top regens don't reach their potential, I doubt very much this is a problem, I'm running a dummy save to test this kind of thing and plenty of 'future stars' fall by the wayside.

I am in 2026 and out of 80928 players I have just 69 with a CA of 180+ (0.085 %)

I'd say it's fairly realistic that there are 69 top level players in the world, the last thing we want is an FM world where no talented regens are coming through

JUST? Are you kidding me? In the beginning of the game there are 6. Since you like percentages (more than 1000% increase)

ArsenalFan - btw keeping the same level doesn't work either because this leads to 2-3 clubs dominance - we have seen it time and time again, and there have been numerous complaints about newgen quaity in the past.. If I take my example from above with 33 starting "stars" - If we have something like 70 that would be great for the game to keep AI teams competitive. 33 simply won't cut it as the human team will have 10-15 of them and will dominate all leagues. But 290 is simply too much.

I really would like some response from the SI guys in the forum, I know they are reading threads like this. And I am sure many of us would expect a response to such a "bug" (if I can use the term, it might be entirely intentional, don't know).

Of course football is going to improve more globally and there will be different quality at different stages etc so it will probably increase.

290 regens of that quality though is ridiculous. I just can't ever see that happening.

Edit: i'm adding your proof to the OP as well

Everyone who still believes there is no issue just look at alexy's images please.

There's no point denying it.

I could not believe it. I downloaded Genie Scout, checked my 2016 save and guess what: from players with max age 21 there are 10 players with pa above 190, 36 with pa 180-189. Can't remember number of players though, I think it was about 50k (all major leagues loaded and also some lesser ones).

I dont have a problem with all these players having that PA.

What matters is how many of them reach that PA as their CA.

I think its important that PA isnt just a case of what the CA will one day arrive at, but what it will arrive at ONLY if given enough first team football, with the right facilities, the right coaches, the right tutoring etc.

Is this the case, or do they just all get there eventually?

I would like to see players routinely falling 20-30 short of their CA unless helped properly

To answer your question - out of all the 24-27 regens (so theoretically already developed) with PA 150-200 (total 1850), there are:

330 who have a difference between CA and PA higher than 30

580 with difference higher than 20

880 with difference higher than 10

520 with difference 10-2

480 with difference 1-0

I think the first group should be a bit higher than the current 1/6 proportion. Maybe 1/4 would be more realistic. The others then are alright between them imo. I think it is a combination of the two problems.

Just gave it a whirl on FM 10 (using 10.3 patch and database). So with the large database and the top leagues from 9 countries (Argentina, Brazil, England, Germany, Italy, France, Spain, Netherlands and Portugal) loaded, which gives me 43K players overall, I've holidayed until 10/7/2012, which gives each league 3 cycles of youth graduates. I've checked on GenieScout, and there are 338 regens with a PA of 150 or over. Seems a much more sensible number than 1588.

As for overall numbers, at the start it was 2483 players with PA of 150 or more, and after 3 years it is 2413, which is a loss of 70. However I'd put this down to all the late 30/early forty players that start the game at tiny clubs (the likes of Aldair, Tacconi, Hadji) because they're givena big reputation. Then there are the oldies that start unemployed simply because they never announced their retirements (Ian Walker, Davids, Amaral). So once you widdle these guy out, the number stays pretty much the same, which is what you want I think.

Also worth noting that the nationality split is pretty good too. Only 1 Egyptian with >150 PA, and one American too (and he's playing for Germany anyway ). For other nations, Argentina have 34, Brazil 42, England 28, France 15 (too low imo), Germany 33, Italy 26, Netherlands 10, Portugal 10, and Spain 22. Some odd nations that pop up are Albania, China, El Salvador, Honduras, Lithuania, Namibia, Somalia, Sudan, and UAE. But all these countries only have 1, so it's no worries really. Mexico have seven, and the only other thing that strikes me is there being 4 Finnish, which is more than the rest of Scandinavia combines (no swedes at all too), but I'm guessing that's just a coincidence.

So note to SI: You had it right on 10.3.

Something similar to that is what is needed, maybe the quality should be there a bit more but not a stupid amount like at the minute and I assume most of those are from a more normal flow of nations? Good stuff

FM10, I believe, had the opposite problem of underdevelopment of newgens. In FM12 it is the entire opposite of overdeveloping them.

Just gave it a whirl on FM 10 (using 10.3 patch and database). So with the large database and the top leagues from 9 countries (Argentina, Brazil, England, Germany, Italy, France, Spain, Netherlands and Portugal) loaded, which gives me 43K players overall, I've holidayed until 10/7/2012, which gives each league 3 cycles of youth graduates. I've checked on GenieScout, and there are 338 regens with a PA of 150 or over. Seems a much more sensible number than 1588.

As for overall numbers, at the start it was 2483 players with PA of 150 or more, and after 3 years it is 2413, which is a loss of 70. However I'd put this down to all the late 30/early forty players that start the game at tiny clubs (the likes of Aldair, Tacconi, Hadji) because they're givena big reputation. Then there are the oldies that start unemployed simply because they never announced their retirements (Ian Walker, Davids, Amaral). So once you widdle these guy out, the number stays pretty much the same, which is what you want I think.

Also worth noting that the nationality split is pretty good too. Only 1 Egyptian with >150 PA, and one American too (and he's playing for Germany anyway ). For other nations, Argentina have 34, Brazil 42, England 28, France 15 (too low imo), Germany 33, Italy 26, Netherlands 10, Portugal 10, and Spain 22. Some odd nations that pop up are Albania, China, El Salvador, Honduras, Lithuania, Namibia, Somalia, Sudan, and UAE. But all these countries only have 1, so it's no worries really. Mexico have seven, and the only other thing that strikes me is there being 4 Finnish, which is more than the rest of Scandinavia combines (no swedes at all too), but I'm guessing that's just a coincidence.

So note to SI: You had it right on 10.3.

Glad I stuck with 10.3

FM10, I believe, had the opposite problem of underdevelopment of newgens. In FM12 it is the entire opposite of overdeveloping them.

Not really. FM10 has been pretty good when it comes to newgens. At least in my opinion.

For me the problem in my long term save there was (I am 99% sure it was FM10.2) only I and a couple of other teams had good enough players to compete in Europe. I was managing Leverkuzen up to something like 2024 and had half the top players in the world. The rest were at Roma and OL and the rest had more or less avarage players - no one could compete with me and even with those 2 so it was pretty much pointless playing anymore. That is what I mean by too weak players - long term games get ruined. But the current FM12 is a step far too far in fixing this issue!

This is only applicable to your saves. This does not mean it is happening to everyone. My save game three years in, is the exact opposite to the saves above. You cannot make any valid conclusions from a couple of save games. The sample is far to finite.

This is only applicable to your saves. This does not mean it is happening to everyone. My save game three years in, is the exact opposite to the saves above. You cannot make any valid conclusions from a couple of save games. The sample is far to finite.

How is your 3 years in save a bigger sample size than his 12 years one? Assuming the regen rate is fixed can see the average growth rate with a larger number of years.

in 3 years in my game I only have 1 player with 190 potential and I have the same number of leagues loaded +/- 1

enjoy your regens I wish I had your overpowered regens

Sigh, trying to tell the whole story using PA is the whole problem here, there is no way all of the players will reach their PA, and there is no way for anyone to know exactly how many possible wonder kids there are in world football right now. I'm 15 years into the game, trust me regens are not miles better than the real players that start in the database, infact its more even this year than it has ever been. There are so many more factors to consider than the one PA number, hence the problems scouting with Genie Scout or FMRTE, they tell a tiny part of a story and the user takes it as the final chapter.

In alexy's screenshot it shows that many, many regens did reach that potential though and became world class players.

How can anyone justify the figures in his picture?

Regens are RANDOM

clubs with tradition in raising youngsters don't have so many wonderkids on the list

Barcelona supposedly has the best youth academy and has no player on your list

that strengthens that regens are RANDOM

Uganda? you are kidding me right? maybe 1 in 100 years

also Rwanda and Tanzania? take them all together and make that 1 in a million that each has a player with PA >= 190

yes I expect Egypt, Morocco, Algeria, Ivory Coast, Ghana, South Africa, Nigeria, Cameroon

but Rwanda Uganda Tanzania?

Sigh, trying to tell the whole story using PA is the whole problem here, there is no way all of the players will reach their PA, and there is no way for anyone to know exactly how many possible wonder kids there are in world football right now. I'm 15 years into the game, trust me regens are not miles better than the real players that start in the database, infact its more even this year than it has ever been. There are so many more factors to consider than the one PA number, hence the problems scouting with Genie Scout or FMRTE, they tell a tiny part of a story and the user takes it as the final chapter.

Post your genie scout results to show us objectively the amount of talent you have in your game. I definitely trust genie scout over your personal judgement.

Yes PA is only one factor, but it is probably the most important factor. Face it, reaching near PA is very easy in this game. You don't really have to reach maximum, just a 181/190 makes your team a beast. As you can see from the Genie scout posts most players reach their PA anyway.

Really just look at the saves posted here. Every club has at least one Iniesta or Xavi in their team. All the top clubs are like FC Barcelona today.

Aye, you can see players with CA's above 180 playing for Metalist and Sparta Prague, that's insanity. That's like seeing Alexis Sanchez and Thiago Silva playing for each!!

70% of the clubs have average or below average youth academies which strengthens that this is random

*ArsenalFan7 Shevchenko played in 1999 for Dynamo Kiev (true Metalist is a smaller club than Dynamo Kiev ) in a CL semi-final and Nedved played for Sparta Prague so it's not impossible for players with high CA and PA to play there

but I bet they won't stay long at Metalist and Sparta Prague, unless they love the club, have big wages and their team is successful

I'd just like to hear SI's opinion and whether or not they feel the balance is there or whether it's something that may be changed, even if it's just fixing these nation youth PA's.

Some good evidence here for something I've noticed in my game so far. I recommend using some of this data to raise it in the bugs forum.

Arguing that "there are Messi's everywhere in the world, they just don't reach their potential" is stupid. Because the CA/PA system doesn't mimic real life. If you want to make that argument you have to give everyone very high PAs and it's up to you to train them up to the level.

Why can't Lukaku have the potential to be better than Messi? You just can't tell. Physically Lukaku surely can surpass Messi. But he took up football late, his knowledge is and skills are inferior so it's unlikely he can surpass Messi even though he'll be a good player.

Nature vs Nurture argument right here. Take any healthy and reasonably intelligent kid and train him hard since 6 years old with the best facilities and coaches/training plans, and you will get a world beater. Because no one else has those advantages.

Look at the how China train their kids for the Olympics. Top gymnasts and divers every year. Are you telling me that the Chinese all have high PA in these sports? Not at all. Put an African kid through the same training and she'll do equally well.

The CA/PA system is just a compromise for those things we can't see in the game...childhood development. Hence it should be adjusted accordingly. It's alright for Brazil to have high PA kids since every kid plays ball, but surely not for a Ugandan.

I guess the order should be

Clubs that are renown for raising youngsters ( Barcelona, Real Madrid, Manchester United, Santos, Sao Paulo, Bayern Munchen, etc.)

Nations that are renown for raising youngsters ( France, Spain, Netherlands, Italy, Germany, England, Portugal, Brazil, Argentina etc.)

the random factor which means a high class star could emerge from nothing ( nationality and national traits are not taken into account) this should be at most 5-10%

Well, with the technology increasing, and the quality of footballers increasing every year, I'm not too surprised that there's so many good regens coming through. Football is a world sport and a lot of the countries are getting better at it every year.

In the Milk Cup 2011 youth tournament in Northern Ireland a team called Aspire came over from Qatar and basically thrashed every single team they played. Man U have a known reputation as having one of the best youth teams and always enter the Milk Cup every year (D. Beckham, R. Giggs, etc. played for Man U at the Milk Cup many years ago). Aspire played Man U in the final of the Milk Cup and to put it simply Man U were totally outclassed by this team from Qatar, the game finished 5-1.

http://theyouthradar.wordpress.com/2011/08/07/aspire-academy-the-future-of-football-in-qatar/

How is your 3 years in save a bigger sample size than his 12 years one? Assuming the regen rate is fixed can see the average growth rate with a larger number of years.

I am not saying anyone'e save is bigger than anyone else's. All I am saying is you cannot read too much into a couple of save games. If everyone's save game is like this, then yes there may be a problem. But for every save game like the OP's and alexyfoot then myself and poola experience of shortage of quality newgens, so it is swings and roundabouts. And Some Guy has already used facts to counter what has been said.

from what I read those who played were not entirely qatari ( most of them were senegalese ), but the qatari have offered state of the art facilities and provided extensive scouting to find talent