Why I dont intend to play FM09 again.

I know that what this Forum really doesnt need in another whingy "why I hate FM09" thread but I should like to make a few points that I feel SI seriously need to sort out forthe next realease.

a/ Career game 1 - Bristol Rov. Was loving this but my tactics were not great (not polished anyway) then patch 9.02 came along and the save game felt "wrong", odd stuff happening. Save games from 9.01 may be 9.02 compatible...but not totally.

b/ Career game 2 - St Etienne. Loved this but during the close season I bought a few too many players, got carried away with the Bosmans!, the result was disharmony. It was a case of morale being too much of an issue - it destroyed my team.

c/ Experiment 1 - Heathxxx's Altrincham challenge. Based on Heath's excellent thread I followed in his footsteps, the trouble was that I built a superteam almost unbeatable. There is nothing wrong with that, I was drawing on the thread's experience after all BUT the only games I lost were to teams who were vast underdogs, the "underdog" issue.

d/ Experiment 2- Norwich. Having got a little frustrated generally with the constant slider tweaking that seem necessary in-matches and inspired by some Posts from players who shunned the Tactical theory for going their own way I built an original set of tactics based around my many years of FM/CM playing stretching back to CM98. Actually all was looking good then in the first competitive game (which I lost 2-1) here follows a description of the 2 goals conceded:

a. A long header from the AI's MC looped a scale 80 ft in the air dropping 1/3 of the pitch away on the edge of my pen box. The AI's SC headed this goalwards without jumping to win the header. My GK, standing between the SC & the goal became antimatter as the ball went through him and into the goal - ive never seen anything like it, he could have caught it, as just inside the box, or blocked it easily or not rushed out to the edge of the area in the first place. Very unrealisitic!

b. A trundled back pass had my keeper, who was within kissing distance of the pedestrian ball, running in small triangles much like a lemming in the game of the same name. The ball of course was of no interest to him until it (almost) hit the back of the net, but it crossed the line im afraid!.

By the way I have played another few save games but they fell apart due to reasons unrelated to the games shortcomings (more a case of picking the wrong club for what I was hoping to achieve).

For those that care with the exception of Experiment 2, I was using wwfans TTT&F guide to create the tactics used which were for the most part sound though overcomplicated to adjust mid-match.

Thanks for reading this, I hope it hits the right tone, not too ranty. The 3d engine has become useless and annoying now in my eyes and the own goal I latterly conceeded would have been just as silly in 2d so I feel FM09 is not for me anymore.

Goal A happens (look at Sami Hyppia heading a ball, he can literally head it almost halfway across the pitch), the GK, who rushed out thinking he can beat the striker to it, might not have been able to react fast enough to the second header. And goal B can be interpreted as a miss kick by the GK I guess, remember that throw in by Aston Villa a season or 2 ago? The ball skipped over the GKs foot. Weirder things happen in football (Stan Collymore's tame effort on Tim Flowers where the ball hit a bumpy patch right before Tim Flowers got his hands on it. The ball skipped right over him. If you haven't seen it look it up on youtube.), and honestly I haven't really been at the end of too many blatant blunders considering I was a league 2 team.

Tactics aren't that complicated. I noticed the biggest problem with tactics is people tend to work hard creating a tactic they think should be really good. When it fails they approach fixing it with a negative mentality resulting in another failed tactic. I personally like to work on something til I perfect it. I don't give up til I do and I've managed to understand the tactical side of this game. In fact for me it's the best FM because of how much tactics matter.

I hate the stupid own goals that get scored on this version, I conceded an own goal that cost me automatic promotion when one of my player decided to whack it from the halfway line over my keepers head. The thing is they seem to occur in games against teams that are far weaker than yours.

The thing is I get really fed up with FM sometimes but I can't stop playing it, I love it too much! BUT I won't be getting FM10, basically my life does not allow me to spend so much time developing tactics and tweaking them until I have the "perfect" tactics set, only to then have to spend weeks more tweaking after each new patch. Now I'm not saying that I am ungratful for SI fixing the known issues but I would much rather they released a game with NO bugs, even if it meant skipping a year. Of course though the "money men" wouldn't like that.

I think I've hijacked the thread enough now. I do agree with the OP that the game has very annoying flaws that can, on the all too often occasion, spoil the experience.

These things can happen irl, all you can do is get on with it.

If your squad harmony is very low irl you just have to ride it out and hope that its gets better, might be a goal that triggers it to rise might be some team bonding but overall these "problems" are realistic as can be.

You just need carry on with the save and it will sort it self out in time.

It really bugs me that the defence for some of the silly things that happen in this game is "that it happens in real life". We all know that yes silly own goals can be scored, but I have yet to see irl a player one on one with the keeper run past him to the byline then hammer the ball BACKWARDS into his own half that turns into a through ball for the opposition that almost leads to a goal.

Or

In a similar situation to the OP, a back pass to the keeper with noone closing the ball down, that the keeper doesn't clear instead runs past the ball, turns, runs past it again, turns again and runs over the ball a third time allowing the opposition striker in to score.

I have seen so many stupid "decisions" in the game from players that are supposed to be intelligent players.

a. A long header from the AI's MC looped a scale 80 ft in the air dropping 1/3 of the pitch away on the edge of my pen box. The AI's SC headed this goalwards without jumping to win the header. My GK, standing between the SC & the goal became antimatter as the ball went through him and into the goal - ive never seen anything like it, he could have caught it, as just inside the box, or blocked it easily or not rushed out to the edge of the area in the first place. Very unrealisitic!

b. A trundled back pass had my keeper, who was within kissing distance of the pedestrian ball, running in small triangles much like a lemming in the game of the same name. The ball of course was of no interest to him until it (almost) hit the back of the net, but it crossed the line im afraid!.

This is part of the problem we have seen this year I suspect.

Both of these goals I believe stem from the lack of relevant animations provided by the 3D graphics to show what has been calculated by the match engine and on these occasions we have to allow our imagination to fill the gap much as we did all the time in earlier versions.

The fact that these "glitches" happen infrequently show what a good first attempt SI have made in bringing us 3D graphics.

For instance had the 3D been applied to a CM01/02 match engine I suspect we would have seen significant shortcomings in the game and many thousands of bugs.

Close the door on your way out

i agree that the stupid defence of the game with comments like 'well chelsea have drawn liverpool in the cl for 3 years running' as an excuse for someone getting man cty 6 times in a row in the fa cup 3rd round or 'well spurs were 2-0 up v man u last year at half time' as an excuse for being 5-0 down at home against reading as arsenal at half time for using the 'wrong' teamtalk when neither has much resemblance at all to the reality.

i will say though, that this game MUST be played with no expectation of realism or of a realistic game simulation as that is why people get frustrated. theres no point in setting sliders to what should work in reality, as the likelyhood is, they wont work in the game, even if they are solid foundationally. if you could base tactics in reality then we wouldnt get told every new release that we will have to adjust to the tactics side of the game all over again, when really a solid tactic that worked well last game should work in any 'simulation'. not find out it is not very good this time round, just to keep the game 'fresh'.

if you want to succeed in this game then you must watch at least 1 full match and change slider settings accordingly, on the fly as you see it. if you want player x closed down quicker then change the corresponding player to close down more and keep doing it til theyre closing down to your satisfaction and you must do this with every slider and to know what your looking for when changing sliders.

it is painstaking and you might even have everything locked down only to find your d-line is too high/low or you need to reduce your width to make your tactic more effective, without ever realising. there's no artificial intelligence applied to your plyers, they are puppets and you need to treat them as such and set every slider appropriately or things just wont work out for you.

ive heard people talk about their keepers being headless chickens when the ball comes into their area or a player making a truelly absurd 50 yard backpasses and its because there are conflicting or wrong slider settings. the player CANNOT think for itself. ive never come across these 2 problems myself, but it stands to reason your telling that player the wrong things, it could be no cf, or too much cf or whatever. take everthing into account when changing sliders or they wont work properly and when 'some' people just post comments of 'its your tactics' it usually is. when asked to explain, they usually cant cos they dont know why or how things work for them, just like others dont know why settings they use dont work for them. so they can never give a definitive answer.

this is the games biggest fault and the cause of all the animosity thrown around the forums, and sorry, its not gonna change!

I feel sorry for your loss. Have fun with CM.

theres no point in setting sliders to what should work in reality, as the likelyhood is, they wont work in the game, even if they are solid foundationally. if you could base tactics in reality then we wouldnt get told every new release that we will have to adjust to the tactics side of the game all over again, when really a solid tactic that worked well last game should work in any 'simulation'. not find out it is not very good this time round, just to keep the game 'fresh'.

How come I've barely touched my tactics between FM07 and FM09? How could I design and release 72 perfectly adequate tactics for FM09 before I'd played it? Could it be that only exploitative tactics need to be changed, whereas football logical ones work perfectly well between engines?

NB: I understand that my translation of the sliders may not equate to your translation of the sliders, and you might find mine illogical. However, given the above, I'd argue that it is a reasonable assumption that my translations are pretty good.

barely? so you have 'tweaked' them? your the first and only person ive heard this claim from (there probably will be more now), but ive heard the opposite from many others, sure they wont ever be as good as you, but ive experienced the same as these other mere mortals and as such summise that tactics dont work the same over a number of editions of the game. not to mention i have actually read from a si representative on these forums that a re-think in the way you set your tactics up will be necessary to succeed in this 'latest' version.

theres really no need to be defensive!

im not looking for logic in the tactics sets as there isnt much (in mine or yours somewhere along the line). ive been extremely successful with my tactics over the series but they are never as good when used on another version, does that mean theres a flaw in the engines for allowing my illogical tactics to work so well in the first place? or maybe ive just got lucky all this time?

and i still only use one tactic for both home and away games in all cups and leagues.

Between FM06 and FM07, how mentality worked changed. Between FM07 and FM08, how closing down worked changed. Between FM08 and FM09, arrows were removed. I changed things slightly to deal with those (although actually I did nothing to compensate for no arrows).

The reason I react strongly to such posts is because they actually perpetuate myths about how FM and its ME work and actually harm the chances of learning how to play the game. If you think the ME is illogical and random, then the chances are you will design illogical and random tactics. Eventually, you will chance upon one that works. If you recognise that the ME has an underlying logical base which has remained fundamentally sound for the last four versions, you will make a set of tactics that take that into account.

The base criteria for designing any tactic that works within the parameters of the ME are this:

1: Is it a formation that the AI uses?

2: Are you using the corner cheat?

3: Do you change tactics (not formation, tactics) during the match?

If the answers are respectively 'yes', 'no' and 'yes', then you will be playing the AI at its own game. If you have done that for four versions consecutively and always achieved, then you are pretty much sure of the logic you are using. If, however, you are using a tactic the AI doesn't, you are employing the 'corner cheat' and you are trying to design a plug'n'play tactic that you never need to change, you are no longer following real life or virtual tactical ideas. You are simply finding a number of ME holes and exploiting them. For the former of the three, the AI needs to become better so the AI teams can learn to handle different formations. For the middle, the ME needs to be fixed so such a routine can't work (as it wouldn't in real life). For the latter, users need to understand football better and realise that there is no such thing as a super tactic and trying to design one will simply cause frustration (unless you do 1 & 2 of course). The reason that you need to change your tactics every version is because previous holes have been fixed, not because there is no logic in the ME.

not to mention i have actually read from a si representative on these forums that a re-think in the way you set your tactics up will be necessary to succeed in this 'latest' version.

Yes, because you can't use arrows any more.

i disagree!

i have never nor will ever use an exploit in the ME to attain results in this game. i dont see the point! nor do i see the point in downloading other peoples tactics, there is no achievement in either of them whatsoever, but now your telling me the only way i must be succeeding is by exploiting the games ME??

i have always made my own tactics using a formation that best fits the teams ive been managing and i make it as solid as possible. i dont know what exploits you talk about but if me winning a game with 1 tactic is using some kind of exploit whether known by me or not must be the way im winning then there's no hope for 99.9% of players! its a game, its knowhere near indepth enough to allow for successful implementation of what i would like to do with my tactics. thats why its a game and i treat it as such! its not reality nor does it have much basis in reality. it performs within set perameters that when configured properly gives you a winning formula. it is after all just a numbers game, where if your numbers add up to 10 then your onto a winner. then comes the random parameter that makes sure no 2 games are alike but over the course of a season you likely to hhave, say, an 80% strike rate its just the names that change.

i think it was neil deyjoythen or miles jacobson who actually appeared on one thread telling the op that he himself only ever employs one tactic throughout a season and is successful with it, is he exploiting the game? pm them both if you dont believe me, i cannot remember who exactly it was who said it but i remember the statement clearly it was just awhile back so i cant be sure who.

i obviously understand the logic of it as does he, even if i am too stoopid to realise it. but to say that using one tactic is not following real life, therefore wrong, is rediculous because its not real life, ITS A GAME!

ps. your last comment is moot as i read it before the release of fm 08

maybe its just that your a christian, while i follow buddhism!

Once I won a league deciding game 3-2 due to 2 goalkeeping errors, cant complain. Also in fm05 my keeper scored twice in a 2-1 win (goal kicks). I can't remember the times ive been screwed by dodgy goals (not infrequent) but not-memorable either. My philosophy is now if I lose 1-0 with 50 shots on goal to the oppsoitons 1 then it was meant to be. If i lose to a fluke from 45 yards, meh. Just makes me want to win more the next game.

edit: i generally win things and now use 4 tactics 4-4-2 (attacking) 442 (standard) 3-5-2 and 4-4-1-1, I change things almost every game (tempo/mentality etc..). I think what team you are (good players? settled? Like you the manager?) and what reputation you have are the most important things.

edit2: @foofighter: what hes sayign is: if you use a 2-3-5 formation and win you're exploiting a bug in ther ME coz in real life youd get devestated with that formation. If you use the corner bug to score 40 goals a season then your exploiting a bug. If you play any of the standard formations ( dozens) that teams use in real life your beating the game, rather than breaking the game. If you play the same tactic every game with no changes and win everything either that tactic exploits a flaw/bug or your team is considerably better than the oppositon.

I'm not saying you ae deliberately taking advantage of any ME exploits. However, as you constantly have to reboot your tactic between versions, I suspect you are inadvertently doing so. Likewise, I don't believe it is possible to beat the AI with a one tactical solution if it isn't taking advantage of at least one exploit, possibly two. I haven't seen a single example of this in the tactical forum as of yet.

You might be the exception, but previous experience makes me think otherwise.

ok well i'll send you my current tactic and you can tell me what exploits i am using? yes?

your belief has nothing to do with it. your assuming, alot!

but when is a goal not a goal?

@earmack, i already said that ive never used any corner bug or diablo or 2-3-5 (dont even know what that would look like). i play the game in the manner its supposed to be played and if i get successful from it, it doesnt mean im cheating or exploiting the game! and where did i say i win everything? i said i was very successful. ive never won every cup in a season, nor have i ever needed to reload to win 1!!!!

Assumptions or educated guesses? I've heard everything you are saying a thousand times, both the experience and the conclusions about the 'illogical ME' and every time there has been a serious lack of basic logic in the construction of the tactic. Every time that lack has been patched up with a playing method that takes advantage of an ME weakness. Common themes in the past have been:

1: The narrow, wingless formation that overloads the centre of the pitch thus creating 6 on 4 situations as the AI FBs are totally isolated and don't tuck into defend.

2: The farrowed MC to FC (or AMC to FC) that the AI always failed to mark

3: The 6-yard box corner cheat

4: The flat 3-man midfield with advanced wingers that ensures the central midfielder and/or central defenders are always able to launch uncontested balls to the flanks past the opposing FBs.

5: The crazy arrows of FM08

6: The ultra-narrow, ultra-slow, ultra-short passing tactics prior to FM05.

There are more, but they've usually been fixed by patches rather than releases.

i cant say ive ever heard of, or used any of them! but the way your going surely everytime you score a goal, there must be some sort of exploit in there somewhere?

or is that just everyone elses problem?

im using a basic 4-4-2 atm. i'll be glad to send it to you!

and if theres a way i will gladly send you this seasons save so you can go back and analyse every single goal my team has scored

Do you have a world class side? Have you used the tactic with a team from much lower levels? With a world class side it is possible to do very well with just one tactic. However, you need to have played at various different levels to 'know' how stable your tactical approach is.

you said further up that you dont believe you can be successful with just one tactic, make your mind up.

heres is my current stats for this season,

im in the CC final, 5th round of the FA cup, CL 1st knockout and i am 2nd on GD in the league.

i did however need pens to win the charity shiled and i lost the FA cup final 1-0 last season and the CL 1-0 in the semi but did win the league for 2 seasons.

this is with a 2 season old tactic, tweaked from a 4-4-1-1 for which i won 3 leagues and 2 CL's in 3 seasons. it is a world class team but looking at other teams, theres definate room for improvement. i also won the world cup with a 4-2-3-1 formation that i made myself, all different, but all only ever used as the main tactic without the need to tweak again once finished with.

Goal A happens (look at Sami Hyppia heading a ball, he can literally head it almost halfway across the pitch), the GK, who rushed out thinking he can beat the striker to it, might not have been able to react fast enough to the second header. And goal B can be interpreted as a miss kick by the GK I guess, remember that throw in by Aston Villa a season or 2 ago? The ball skipped over the GKs foot. Weirder things happen in football (Stan Collymore's tame effort on Tim Flowers where the ball hit a bumpy patch right before Tim Flowers got his hands on it. The ball skipped right over him. If you haven't seen it look it up on youtube.), and honestly I haven't really been at the end of too many blatant blunders considering I was a league 2 team.

Tactics aren't that complicated. I noticed the biggest problem with tactics is people tend to work hard creating a tactic they think should be really good. When it fails they approach fixing it with a negative mentality resulting in another failed tactic. I personally like to work on something til I perfect it. I don't give up til I do and I've managed to understand the tactical side of this game. In fact for me it's the best FM because of how much tactics matter.

Goal A dies not happen, ball mechanics IRL mean it is impossible, please read the detail again. The GK got to the SC long before the ball so he would have put a block in - if he had jumped, which he didnt, and even if he hadnt he would have had a height advantage so the ball would have hit him in the face. IF the SC header had looped over the GK then maybe you maty have a point - but it didnt. Goal B was unlikely to happen other than on a parks pitch. I take your point about freak goals but 2 in one game? And I always in FM09 seem to average an own goal either for or against every 2 games - averages do not lie over a long period. The Tim Flowers goal would appear in FM09 as a fumble passing through the keeper, and I believe the comentary relates to the GK error as it is by the ME's design, that I can live with, not this running around the ball as it dribbles in - honestly it looked more like a curling simulation!

BTW my last effort was as Norwich City.

I do however agree RE tactics, I have over complicated in the past and the Norwich thing was tactically positive, shame about the big top 3d.

This is part of the problem we have seen this year I suspect.

Both of these goals I believe stem from the lack of relevant animations provided by the 3D graphics to show what has been calculated by the match engine and on these occasions we have to allow our imagination to fill the gap much as we did all the time in earlier versions.

The fact that these "glitches" happen infrequently show what a good first attempt SI have made in bringing us 3D graphics.

For instance had the 3D been applied to a CM01/02 match engine I suspect we would have seen significant shortcomings in the game and many thousands of bugs.

I appreciate that most of the replies have been positive and "adult" with a few notable exceptions, I tried to Post responsibly - i too hate negative whinges. You have made a killer point, I love CM0102 but if that translated into 3d graphics it would be awful and I base that on one fact - you can be attacking and suddenly there is no commentary followed instantly by a goal aginst, how does that work? ...but the beauty of CM0102 is that it didnt need 3d, it just was what it was, but FM09 needed the next level of developemnt to justify itself and that was 3d. I have championed the game before, I dont hate it but the problems (the 4 main ones) that I listed in the OP, really finished the game off for me. I shall probably buy both CM10 & FM10 and hope both are excellent but like FM07 I will not be keen to play this game again - hopefully! (becaue if I do want to it means what follows must have been worse). Viva footy management sims!, whoever shall make them.

i agree that the stupid defence of the game with comments like 'well chelsea have drawn liverpool in the cl for 3 years running' as an excuse for someone getting man cty 6 times in a row in the fa cup 3rd round or 'well spurs were 2-0 up v man u last year at half time' as an excuse for being 5-0 down at home against reading as arsenal at half time for using the 'wrong' teamtalk when neither has much resemblance at all to the reality.

i will say though, that this game MUST be played with no expectation of realism or of a realistic game simulation as that is why people get frustrated. theres no point in setting sliders to what should work in reality, as the likelyhood is, they wont work in the game, even if they are solid foundationally. if you could base tactics in reality then we wouldnt get told every new release that we will have to adjust to the tactics side of the game all over again, when really a solid tactic that worked well last game should work in any 'simulation'. not find out it is not very good this time round, just to keep the game 'fresh'.

if you want to succeed in this game then you must watch at least 1 full match and change slider settings accordingly, on the fly as you see it. if you want player x closed down quicker then change the corresponding player to close down more and keep doing it til theyre closing down to your satisfaction and you must do this with every slider and to know what your looking for when changing sliders.

it is painstaking and you might even have everything locked down only to find your d-line is too high/low or you need to reduce your width to make your tactic more effective, without ever realising. there's no artificial intelligence applied to your plyers, they are puppets and you need to treat them as such and set every slider appropriately or things just wont work out for you.

ive heard people talk about their keepers being headless chickens when the ball comes into their area or a player making a truelly absurd 50 yard backpasses and its because there are conflicting or wrong slider settings. the player CANNOT think for itself. ive never come across these 2 problems myself, but it stands to reason your telling that player the wrong things, it could be no cf, or too much cf or whatever. take everthing into account when changing sliders or they wont work properly and when 'some' people just post comments of 'its your tactics' it usually is. when asked to explain, they usually cant cos they dont know why or how things work for them, just like others dont know why settings they use dont work for them. so they can never give a definitive answer.

this is the games biggest fault and the cause of all the animosity thrown around the forums, and sorry, its not gonna change!

I respect your thoughts about playing the full match - you may well be right, and although it is easy to say "I just dont have the time" you have clearly indicated it need only be for a match or two which is fair comment.

Regarding the keeper not acting like a keeper, it is daft to say it is due to too much CF...or not enough CF - that is just covering every base, any eventuallity can be "explained away" like theat. For the most part I used wwfans advice in the TTT&F document so I would be shocked it the keeper settings in there were total ar$e. Anyway, AI keepers do it too and I dont imagine the AI manager deliberately sets conflicting instructions.

And why is it the vast majority of midfield 50-50's, whoever you manage, whatever tactics & tweaks you use, are won by the AI? True enough the overall percentage of midfield possession can even out as my players will quite often win the 2nd ball, just stopping the stats from being silly, but the 1st ball is almost unwinable in any fair percentage. Watch closely & see what I mean!, this challenge applies to any team, any tactic.

My feeling is for the dodgy goals (keeper running in cricles round the ball) the match engine has mistranslated something (to the 3d representation), you were always going to concede that goal, just the game mistakenly used the wrong animations/graphics.

If you find your midfield being overun that is definetely a tactical/squad talent issue. My young regen midfielder (central) wins countless balls in midfield.

i agree that the stupid defence of the game with comments like 'well chelsea have drawn liverpool in the cl for 3 years running' as an excuse for someone getting man cty 6 times in a row in the fa cup 3rd round or 'well spurs were 2-0 up v man u last year at half time' as an excuse for being 5-0 down at home against reading as arsenal at half time for using the 'wrong' teamtalk when neither has much resemblance at all to the reality.

i will say though, that this game MUST be played with no expectation of realism or of a realistic game simulation as that is why people get frustrated. theres no point in setting sliders to what should work in reality, as the likelyhood is, they wont work in the game, even if they are solid foundationally. if you could base tactics in reality then we wouldnt get told every new release that we will have to adjust to the tactics side of the game all over again, when really a solid tactic that worked well last game should work in any 'simulation'. not find out it is not very good this time round, just to keep the game 'fresh'.

if you want to succeed in this game then you must watch at least 1 full match and change slider settings accordingly, on the fly as you see it. if you want player x closed down quicker then change the corresponding player to close down more and keep doing it til theyre closing down to your satisfaction and you must do this with every slider and to know what your looking for when changing sliders.

it is painstaking and you might even have everything locked down only to find your d-line is too high/low or you need to reduce your width to make your tactic more effective, without ever realising. there's no artificial intelligence applied to your plyers, they are puppets and you need to treat them as such and set every slider appropriately or things just wont work out for you.

ive heard people talk about their keepers being headless chickens when the ball comes into their area or a player making a truelly absurd 50 yard backpasses and its because there are conflicting or wrong slider settings. the player CANNOT think for itself. ive never come across these 2 problems myself, but it stands to reason your telling that player the wrong things, it could be no cf, or too much cf or whatever. take everthing into account when changing sliders or they wont work properly and when 'some' people just post comments of 'its your tactics' it usually is. when asked to explain, they usually cant cos they dont know why or how things work for them, just like others dont know why settings they use dont work for them. so they can never give a definitive answer.

this is the games biggest fault and the cause of all the animosity thrown around the forums, and sorry, its not gonna change!

Due almost entirely to your Post I have gone back for 1 more match, watching the full match. You are right!, for FM10 it will be how I start. Sadly on full match you see even more silly unrealistic-in-3d stuff so I still think FM09 has had it in my eyes but your ideas have given me a fresh new spin on how to approcah future FM's. thanks for that.

And why is it the vast majority of midfield 50-50's, whoever you manage, whatever tactics & tweaks you use, are won by the AI? True enough the overall percentage of midfield possession can even out as my players will quite often win the 2nd ball, just stopping the stats from being silly, but the 1st ball is almost unwinable in any fair percentage. Watch closely & see what I mean!, this challenge applies to any team, any tactic.

Although I've given up on FM09 myself (the first FM/CM game i've done so with) I must heartily disagree. I almost always win a significantly greater proportion of 50/50's with a wide variety of teams, from South African 2nd League Sides to Italian Serie A giants.

I just love these threads. People come up with some utterly absurd justifications for some of the problems with FM09. Pure entertainment

I just love these threads. People come up with some utterly absurd justifications for some of the problems with FM09. Pure entertainment

Yes the trheads have become more fun than the gamne - enough said! I may have to stand corrected about the midfield possession thing though if other disagree that much.

The discussion on issues within the ME

I'd agree with Toffee that the 50/50 balls situation isn't biased. But what about forward players receiving the ball with back to goal? How often does the defensive team win the ball? This seems loaded with bias towards the defender, presumably for reasons of balancing the game so that too much attacking doesn't go on.

Also, does anyone else notice almost a complete lack of tackling from Central Defenders? My Full-backs are happy to tackle, but Central Defenders seem happy to just try and block and stand in front of attacking players. I just hardly ever, ever see them committing themselves to a tackle, even when the forward is getting the better of him and clearly about to beat him (instead we get a 'slowing down' of the attacker...).

I'm not 100% sure if this is just my CBs, or AIs as well, but off the top of my head I don't recall AI CBs making a lot of tackles either. However could it be my Opp Instructions are always to tackle 'Normal' for Full Backs, but for CBs I use 'no specific instruction' (really I want the player to make his own mind up, not to get him sliding all the time so as to give away penalties).

But is this instruction leaving my CBs unable to make a decision, rendering them witless, gormless, unintelligent morons? Or is this just a ME issue in general with CBs? It's one or the other for me, and either way it ain't right.

Why I'm disappointed with FM2009 - the 3D Match Engine

Ultimately I'm finding myself getting to the same point as Tiger. I find myself really wanting to enjoy the game - and I should be, I'm 2nd in League 1 with Farsley Celtic after consecutive promotions, so this would be 4 in a row.

How can I be so utterly annoyed with the game after what looks like will be 4 successive promotions?

Answer: It's because I watch all my matches in 3D in full. And there lies the rub. As I said on the bugs forum earlier - ultimately, after the initial release followed by 3 patches, the Match Engine is still very rudimentary and is in fact still very much a beta version.

The FM2010 demo has a long way to go to convince me to continue with the series, and to convince me that SI have really got the 3d Match Engine right. If they do, then they've got something special on their hands, because I think a really good, realistic 3D Engine will add massively to the game experience (and it is why I bought FM2009, expecting this), but if it's not right, if it's not realistic, if there's still elements of it that are on rails as there seem to be now (which hugely affect how effective your tactical developments are), then I'm afraid I won't be going there again.

Get this 3D Match Engine right, get it to play realistically according to players' attributes, get some player intelligence in there - i.e. REAL decision-making based on players' Situational Awareness (a concept that is not present in the current ME) - and boy will this be a flipping fantastic football management game, and anyone else will really have their work cut out to match it.

But if we're not heading for this level of realism in the ME, but simply attempting to balance Attack vs Defence in order to maintain realistic scorelines, not really thinking about and programming in the characteristics of each position on the football field (and playing them out according to each players' attributes), but only representing a very limited version of each position on the football field (almost caricature-like), then I just don't see the point in this particular development and will not be able to enjoy the next release either, I'm afraid.

Getting the Match Engine right - some fundamental concepts

I really think SI need to do 2 things:

1) Sit down and really think about the characteristics of each position on the football field. What do those players actually do? What are the key responsibilities and actions of each position / role? How do those players interact with opponents on the field? how do they try to defend against what the Opponents' responsibilities and actions are? How does an attacking player try to beat how the Opponent attempts to defend against his actions? (ok, that might seem like teaching egg-sucking, but I feel there is a lot missing from each position - I would argue full-backs and goalkeepers are the more complete FM positions).

2) Work Situational Awareness into players as a concept. The times you see players running past the ball, running away from a loose ball, not responding to a crossed ball, not controlling a ball but heading it, when he does... heading it out of play when in an advantageous position. Defenders kicking the ball out for a corner when in a little space to at least turn round and put it out for a throw. Standing still when an opponent runs towards a loose ball, or even worse, running away as the opponent wins it.

Players do not seem to know (apart from the binary concept of defending and attacking), what is a good thing to do, and what is a bad thing to do. Like putting the ball out for a corner is a really bad thing. Thus, if you can void it, you damn well will.

Putting the ball out for a throw when you've moved the ball from defence to the half-way line is a very bad thing. To boil that down, giving possession away is a very bad thing. Therefore you will avoid it if you can... but I see many examples in every game whereby this is avoidable but a player will kick it into touch when in space, or head out for a throw, etc... There is hard-coding going on in quite a few areas, this kicking the ball into touch is one. If a player had Situational Awareness, and the knowledge that Possession Is A Good Thing, that A Corner Is A Bad Thing, then he would not put the ball into touch every time as we see it, he would not put it out for a corner when it is avoidable - he would be armed to make a decision, not follow a hard-coded single rule... he mostly may make a good decision - other times, he may be having a torrid time, have made a mistake, been run ragged, and make a rushed decision... but it will look and play realistically...

I think there's some fundamental AI concepts missing in this version of the ME, which is why for me, this is still very much a beta. If the ME was a web 2.0 website, it would be clearly labelled 'beta' - because it is cool to label web 2.0 websites as 'beta', therefore, if it really is, you can be honest about it and get away with it and develop some anticipation of what is to come next.

But it is not cool to label a boxed retail product as a 'beta', even when, when we are being honest about it, it is, and so nobody actually says that it is, when in fact, it is.

Disappointing end to FM2009, and the future

What is very, very disappointing is that there will be no further patch to address the obvious, outstanding, and most painful Match Engine issues in FM2009 (I'm not talking about some of the 'improvement' stuff above - I accept the inevitable evolution, but I want something that just works to an acceptable standard, without major gameplay-inhibiting bugs) - I don't see how anybody can derive full enjoyment out of this version of the ME, thus we are left with an incomplete product, and this is bad for confidence when it comes to the next version.

I will look forward to the FM2010 demo with some hope - hopefully, the the FM guys are sat in SI Towers working on these very things as we speak - but something tells me not to suffer too much expectation.

(Apologies that that became more a wordy article than a 'post', but this is my summary of FM2009 and the disappointment of it's main new feature, which I can't express in 10 characters )

I have a league game in season 1 as Bolton away to WBA. Its supposed to be a 1st team game but forget that! It's a combination of U18s/reserves due to the worst injury crisis I've ever experienced in FM.

I have 7 starters out injured and added to this are one starter on international duty and one starter suspended. So that's two 1st team starters left. :o

I don't intend to play FM09 because it's just not realistic.

Players make random 50 yard hoofs, take random long shots (even when I tell them not to) and in general make dumb passes that just don't need to be made.

Also, these 35 yard screamers are ridiculous that I always seem to concede.

Hi all,

I have just come to this blog for some advice. I have up to today played a few different challenges on the current game. I haven't uploaded any tactics nor have I used any 9.2 or 9.3 thingmejiggas. I have just played the original game.

I am not a player who likes to save a game not get the result I want and therefor quit and play a game again. I want to win the right way.

I am currently with Q.P.R in my 12th season. I started at Chelmsford and worked my way up the leagues to the premier league where I am no 7th. I have only ever won one league which was the Blue Square Premier with Bournemouth. I am also with Man City in another and currently 4th in the Prem. I feel starting with Man City is cheating becasue you have little to do as a manager with the amount of funds available.

I can win all my home games in a season it is just the away games that I am struggling with. It's the tactics I am sure. As soon as I can win my away games I am going to be a champion.

The advice I need is this. If your scout says West Ham like to play a posession game, It is important you have most of the posession. Surely this mean you play a short passing game and at slower tempo to keep the posession. If the scout says Tottenham like to play mixed football i.e short to direct they have a long narrow pith. Surely this mean you play through the middle with the passing styke slider in the middle. If it says the home team you are playing has certain players that need to be stopped surely this means you close them down or tight mark them. What about if your told the home team play direct football you need to cut of the forwards supply. How do I go about this?

As I say I can win my home games it's just the away games I have trouble with. I can't be an out right winner of a league even though I know I have far superior players to the rest of the league in my team.

I leave it to the floor to help, unfortunately I feel the game always ends at a dead end and I haven't yet mastered it.

Thanks

Stinno