Using other people's ideas

[Gee_Simpson]

I'm quite open in telling people I have OCD. I'm not great at creating tactics, I used to download them when I was young but as they were super tactics that won nearly every game it got boring. I then took the stance that using other people's tactics was wrong, this is due to my OCD, I'm now obsessed incase I'm copying anyone so if the tactics look similar I feel I can't use it. Recently though, I've been browsing the forums for recreations of popular managers tactics, I'm thinking it wouldn't be so bad to use these, as they aren't the super match engine defeating tactics, just a logical idea partly based on a real life style.

I seen someone post a 4231/4411 based on Liverpool yesterday (not the whole thing, no screenshots for example, just most roles/duties and nothing else). I know Liverpool usually use a 4123/433 irl but sometimes they use a 4231. As it's my favourite formation, I gave it a try with Man Utd and it worked rather well. I changed one or two roles and used my own TI's, PI's and mentality. I'm starting to think as long as it's not a match engine breaking tactic that it's ok to use other people's ideas? What are you guys thoughts on this? I look for reassurance for things I worry about (thanks to my OCD) and really shouldn't do it but it would be appreciated so I can start a save with this without feeling like I'm cheating 

[EnigMattic1]

Is it really copying or is it taking inspiration from?

Bottom line is, every tactic in real life had been influenced by a previous tactic. Even someone like Johan Cruyff took inspiration from someone else. 

The way this game is programmed, you could take someone else's tactic, use it with the same team, same starting XI, against the same opposition and get a completely different result. 

What you are doing is fine. That's why there are so many amazing threads on here from highly knowledgeable players, to inspire and aid other players. 

[kevaggel]

The important thing is to enjoy the game, no matter how you play or the tactics that you are using.

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Gee_Simpson said:

I'm starting to think as long as it's not a match engine breaking tactic that it's ok to use other people's ideas? What are you guys thoughts on this?

All of us are using - and adapting - other people's ideas, including those of real-life managers/head coaches. But it absolutely does not mean that you are copying anybody. Therefore, just relax and enjoy the game 

[FMunderachiever]

Theres nothing much you can do thats truly unique, everything will be a slight adaptation of a philosophy thats been around before because theres only so much you can do with kicking a ball into a net with 11 players.

Enjoy the game, not doing anything wrong searching for inspiration in my opinion

[HanziZoloman]

Bad artist copy, great artist steal (Picasso). In managing a football team maybe Pep and Kloppo are great artist, they stole a lot and tell though. 

[SixPointer]

I also have OCD. Our brains often work to hard. My problem is a seak absolute perfection! It held me back tactically. Would let my players natural roles dictate my tactics. But like you I found some peace of mind using real life tactics replications or ideas to get around this problem. Right now my thing is using overloads. I read about them when am not playing almost any free time I have at work etc then apply them to the game. I found another helpful thing making 3 well balanced tactics at the start of the game with a long term vision and philosophy to work to so you just tweak them slightly from season to season helped me a lot. Plus let’s be honest what your doing is what every real life manger does. There taking ideas from someone else. Rinus Michales taught Cryuff pep is inspired by Cryuff a bielsa I dare say Jose was inspired by robson at times. That’s the beauty of football my friend. Best of luck in game and with OCD

[Gee_Simpson]

Thanks guys, makes me feel better about it

I took some of the roles from @Gegenklaus and was inspired by the post by @wige you can find those here for anyone interested :

I just really like the way Liverpool play irl (despite being a Utd fan!) but 4231 is still my favourite formation, so I went down that route instead of their usual 4123/433. I like to use a creative midfielder in my tactics and their 433 doesn't really allow that from the midfielders at least, it mainly comes from their fullbacks as mentioned. So yeah, Gegenklaus only listed some roles, I had forgotten he didn't even list every position, and it seems he would be planning an asymmetrical shape instead, I have added the rest (other roles and TI's, PI's , mentality).

It dominates weaker sides at home which is good, because those are the games I always have struggled with, but I will need to tweak it for tougher matches, especially away from home. I may use a different shape for tougher matches, probably a 4123 or 4141. It was mentioned by wige and Gegenklaus that it's a 4411, I used it as a 4231 in game but may switch back to the 4411 to see if I can make it more solid defensively. Man Utd's squad obviously isn't the best anymore, and especially when I plan on turning the first window off to makes things more challenging and realistic. Man Utd are my English team, so i feel it's necessary to endure the pain of having the real life squad with no additions

It is an aggressive tactic and Man Utd are thin on defensive minded midfielders, but I found a combo of Matic at CM (D) and McTominay (CAR) as the two holding players works relatively well. If one gets injured though then I could see problems arising! Good thing is I feel I understand how the tactic works, I didn't know until now that the Carrilero moves horizontally to cover, not vertically like a box to box midfielder. Seems like a great role for covering a marauding wing back.

I have attached the tactic and first 11:

I usually tweak things like defensive line, passing length, tempo and mentality (Positive to Balanced) during or before a game. I don't think Utd are good enough yet to play 'much shorter' but that is my eventual plan once I get better quality players in. I need to work on an away tactic as mentioned.

Edited January 11, 2020 by Gee_Simpson

[Experienced Defender]

43 minutes ago, Gee_Simpson said:

Nice tactic 

[Gee_Simpson]

11 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Nice tactic 

Thanks mate, and congrats on getting made a Mod. I always thought you should have been made one as you help so many people around these parts of the forums. You will be a good replacement for Herne 

Edited January 11, 2020 by Gee_Simpson

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Gee_Simpson said:

Thanks mate, and congrats on getting made a Mod. I always thought you should have been made one as you help so many people around these parts of the forums. You will be a good replacement for Herne 

Thanks for these kind words, but I fear that nobody can be a good enough replacement for Herne. I wholeheartedly hope he'll change his mind and come back one day, because this community really needs people like him, whose advice is always useful even for more experienced FM tacticians, let alone novices.

[Shift]

12 hours ago, Gee_Simpson said:

Hello

I used very similar tactics in my previous season and it worked well too. Before the current season I made a lot of changes in the team and now I have players on the wings who can only play as a wingers. Because of their legs, ability to play on one side only and weak mental attributes, they will not work well as IW or IF.

The problem is that after setting them as wingers, this tactic stops working. They do not bring much to the game, they do not pass balls to the striker, they do not record assists and have poor marks. I have already tried various settings, even with setting higher wide defenders and offensive central midfielder, adding PI "roam from position" for winger but it does not work as it should.

Generally, we have to force these wingers to play more centrally, closer to the team like IF. They should play "killer" balls more often instead of crossing from the corner of the pitch.

@Gee_Simpson ,@Experienced Defender

Do you have any ideas on how to improve their performance on the pitch ?

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, Shift said:

Hello

I used very similar tactics in my previous season and it worked well too. Before the current season I made a lot of changes in the team and now I have players on the wings who can only play as a wingers. Because of their legs, ability to play on one side only and weak mental attributes, they will not work well as IW or IF.

The problem is that after setting them as wingers, this tactic stops working. They do not bring much to the game, they do not pass balls to the striker, they do not record assists and have poor marks. I have already tried various settings, even with setting higher wide defenders and offensive central midfielder, adding PI "roam from position" for winger but it does not work as it should.

Generally, we have to force these wingers to play more centrally, closer to the team like IF. They should play "killer" balls more often instead of crossing from the corner of the pitch.

@Gee_Simpson ,@Experienced Defender

Do you have any ideas on how to improve their performance on the pitch ?

You'll need to post a screenshot of the tactic first, as far as I am concerned. I tend to avoid giving a generalist type of advice because it can be misleading. Once I see the tactic, I can analyze it and see what can be improved.

[Shift]

2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

You'll need to post a screenshot of the tactic first, as far as I am concerned. I tend to avoid giving a generalist type of advice because it can be misleading. Once I see the tactic, I can analyze it and see what can be improved.

So I have 2 tactics setups. One with the left winger and IW on the right and the other with two wingers. The basic tactic is the second one, but when Ramirez is out, I have to play with two wingers because I don't have a backup IW on the right.
Wide defenders are also a problem for me. The guy on the left is definitely better offensive and the one on the right is defensive. However, in the tactics with IW right defender should play slightly higher. So the second problem is how to balance these wings with this kind of players.

Below are screenshots of these players and tactics (2 players have added PI)

    

   

In conclusion, I need two well-functioning versions of this tactic. One with two wingers and the other with winger on the left and IW or IF on the right.

Thank you for your interest.

Edited January 12, 2020 by Shift
Corrected screenshots

[Experienced Defender]

6 minutes ago, Shift said:

So I have 2 tactics setups. One with the left winger and IW on the right and the other with two wingers. The basic tactic is the second one, but when Ramirez is out, I have to play with two wingers because I don't have a backup IW on the right.
Wide defenders are also a problem for me. The guy on the left is definitely better offensive and the one on the right is defensive. However, in the tactics with IW right defender should play slightly higher. So the second problem is how to balance these wings with this kind of players.

Below are screenshots of these players and tactics (2 players have added PI)

        

In conclusion, I need two well-functioning versions of this tactic. One with two wingers and the other with winger on the left and IW or IF on the right.

Thank you for your interest.

Unfortunately, the screenshots are too small even when I click to enlarge them. Can you post them again in a greater size?

[Shift]

16 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Unfortunately, the screenshots are too small even when I click to enlarge them. Can you post them again in a greater size?

Yes, I'm sorry. Corrected.

[Gee_Simpson]

5 hours ago, Shift said:

Hello

I used very similar tactics in my previous season and it worked well too. Before the current season I made a lot of changes in the team and now I have players on the wings who can only play as a wingers. Because of their legs, ability to play on one side only and weak mental attributes, they will not work well as IW or IF.

The problem is that after setting them as wingers, this tactic stops working. They do not bring much to the game, they do not pass balls to the striker, they do not record assists and have poor marks. I have already tried various settings, even with setting higher wide defenders and offensive central midfielder, adding PI "roam from position" for winger but it does not work as it should.

Generally, we have to force these wingers to play more centrally, closer to the team like IF. They should play "killer" balls more often instead of crossing from the corner of the pitch.

@Gee_Simpson ,@Experienced Defender

Do you have any ideas on how to improve their performance on the pitch ?

I'm a tactical novice really, best to take advice from @Experienced Defender 

[Experienced Defender]

46 minutes ago, Shift said:

Yes, I'm sorry. Corrected.

Okay, but I don't see any difference between the 2nd, 3rd and 4th tactics, either in terms of roles and duties or instructions. It seems as though you posted the same tactic 3 times. Or maybe I missed something?

Btw, player screenshots are still too small and hence impossible to be seen properly.

[Shift]

20 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Okay, but I don't see any difference between the 2nd, 3rd and 4th tactics, either in terms of roles and duties or instructions. It seems as though you posted the same tactic 3 times. Or maybe I missed something?

Btw, player screenshots are still too small and hence impossible to be seen properly.

First picture: tactics with a winger and IW

Second picture: we have two wingers

Third picture: PI for BBM (I added 4 new PI they are not set for the role by default that's why I'm showing the picture)

Fourth picture: PI for AM (added 4 new PI)

TIs are the same because it's the same tactics the difference is in the role of the right midfielder. If Ramirez plays on the right, he is IW, if Durda he is a winger.

When comes to player photos, it should be fine now. I checked on two computers and it's ok. It looks like this

and may be even more enlarged and open in a new window.

[Experienced Defender]

22 minutes ago, Shift said:

First picture: tactics with a winger and IW

Second picture: we have two wingers

Yes, I saw the difference between the 1st and 3 other tactics (although the difference is in only one role in AMR). 

 

23 minutes ago, Shift said:

Third picture: PI for BBM (I added 4 new PI they are not set for the role by default that's why I'm showing the picture)

Fourth picture: PI for AM (added 4 new PI)

I would remove most of these PIs for both players. The only PIs that may make sense are the "Get further forward" and "Take more risks", but only for the AMsu, not the BBM. The AMsu can also be asked/allowed to roam from position. 

So:

BBM - no PIs

AMsu - get further forward, take more risks and roam from position 

We can now discuss your tactic(s), but looking at your players' profiles (those from the screenshots), I am not sure that a formation such as 4231 is a really good idea for you. I don't know which league you are competing in and where your team  stands compared to others, but most of these guys from the screenshots do not appear to be good enough for an attack-minded style of play, especially not under the 4231. 

I think you should consider switching to a more balanced formation like 4141dm wide (a.k.a. 4123 wide). 

However, if you insist on the 4231, this is an example of how you can make the tactic better balanced in terms of roles and duties:

The version with Ramirez in AMR:

PFat

Wat          AMat         APsu

BBM   CMde

FBsu   CD/BPDde  CDde  FBat

SKsu

The version with Durda in AMR:

PFat

Wat         AMsu        Wsu

BBM   CMde

FBsu  CD/BPD  CD   WBsu

SKsu

NOTE:  In your original tactic(s), the AML was probably too isolated as a winger on attack duty with both players behind him being played in conservative roles (CM on defend and FB on support). Now that I swapped the 2 CM roles around, the setup should be more balanced overall.

[Shift]

43 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

We can now discuss your tactic(s), but looking at your players' profiles (those from the screenshots), I am not sure that a formation such as 4231 is a really good idea for you. I don't know which league you are competing in and where your team  stands compared to others, but most of these guys from the screenshots do not appear to be good enough for an attack-minded style of play, especially not under the 4231. 

I think you should consider switching to a more balanced formation like 4141dm wide (a.k.a. 4123 wide). 

My team is new promoted to the Polish Ekstraklasa and the goal for this season will be top 6 in the league. I do not think about European Cups yet, because we are too weak, but compared to the strength of other teams in Poland using 4-2-3-1 will not be a big threat to us and will bring more benefits in the offensive.

Thank you very much for the advice, I will test both versions during the season and see what the results will be.

[Robson 07]

On 09/01/2020 at 21:55, Gee_Simpson said:

I'm starting to think as long as it's not a match engine breaking tactic that it's ok to use other people's ideas? What are you guys thoughts on this? I look for reassurance for things I worry about (thanks to my OCD) and really shouldn't do it but it would be appreciated so I can start a save with this without feeling like I'm cheating 

I know what you mean but it isn't cheating.  My first edition of this game was way back in CM01/02.  I remember finding and using someone else's tactic but in the end it just became a template for me.  A point of referral on what worked and what didn't.  That was back in the days of sliders but since then I create my own tactics.  But still I check and post here pretty regular just to borrow ideas and see what others are doing as well as offering the odd bit of advice.