From Man Utd success to Real Madrid misery? HELP PLEASE

[Speedylad123]

so confused as to why my Man Utd tactic which won everything in the first season except getting beat in the CL final by 1 goal isn't working when I've moved teams to Real Madrid, literally just saved it and copied it across, but I'm sitting in 7th and bottom of CL group stages and struggling for goals and wins. Have loads of possession and shots but no wins.

 

PI's are;

STR: Close down more, roam from position

RDM: take more risks, close down more, dribble more

IF: Close down more, roam from position

MEZ: close down more

CM: dribble less, shoot less often, mark tighter

DLP: tackle harder mark tighter

and nothing special on the defence just take less risks and dribble less.

 

[Luizinho]

Seems strange that your tactical familiarity is so low. How many games have you used the tactic for?

[Speedylad123]

16 minutes ago, Luizinho said:

Seems strange that your tactical familiarity is so low. How many games have you used the tactic for?

that goes up when you add players into each position, what I will add is that for some reason my AM didn't arrange friendlies so I only had 1 before the season but I've played enough games now for that to not matter as much 

[RookieFm]

Just because it worked at united doesn't mean it will work at madrid. Players have different attributes and traits to what would of brought you your success. 

[Speedylad123]

Yeah I agree but the players I have at Madrid fit the tactic even more so in my opinion with Bale, Vinicius and benzema as DLF. Also with Ramos as BPD. Only difference is they don’t have a player who can do what Pogba does but kovavic has v good stats for the role 

[summatsupeer]

1 hour ago, Speedylad123 said:

Yeah I agree but the players I have at Madrid fit the tactic even more so in my opinion with Bale, Vinicius and benzema as DLF. Also with Ramos as BPD. Only difference is they don’t have a player who can do what Pogba does but kovavic has v good stats for the role 

Maybe if the Real Madrid players fit the tactic better then there is an issue with the tactic that the Utd players covered up.   There isn't a lot of variety in the tactic, it is a very quick risky tactic thats focused purely on vertical running whilst at the same time pressures very quickly.  Your also in a different league playing different teams (managers, players and tactics).  The players you have also have different personalities, big match stats, consistency etc, they're more than just the visible attributes and traits. Does your players have the fitness+stamina to keep good condition playing like that in the Spanish heat?

[Robson 07]

I'd be inclined to take a quick look at team dynamics: cohesion / atmosphere / support.  Suspect you're not yet settled at the club and there might be other factors at play within the club making some unhappy.  You'll probably need to use another tactic for a few games.  Go for something safe and ordinary.  Try this tactic again later again when things are calmer.  I wouldn't be inclined to bin it given previous form it has shown but for now, rest it for a spell until you stabilise.  Things will ugly at a club like Madrid if you don't react.

[Experienced Defender]

6 hours ago, Speedylad123 said:

so confused as to why my Man Utd tactic which won everything in the first season except getting beat in the CL final by 1 goal isn't working when I've moved teams to Real Madrid, literally just saved it and copied it across, but I'm sitting in 7th and bottom of CL group stages and struggling for goals and wins

Probably because Real and Utd are two different teams. They may both be top-class sides in terms of quality and reputation, but it does not mean one same tactic will fit them both. Different types of players require different types of tactic.

 

6 hours ago, Speedylad123 said:

Btw, I have to admit that I personally don't like this tactic at all, even if it won everything for you with Man Utd. 4 out of possible 5 attack duties among the front 5 and unnecessarily too aggressive defensive instructions - simply not my cup of tea. No offense of course, just a matter of personal preference 

[sporadicsmiles]

Well, you lost 7-1 to Valencia. Having a look what on earth went so spectacularly wrong in that game should give you some clues on what is going wrong defensively.

I would assume that teams are more defensive against you as Real Madrid than they were when you were Manchester United. More likely to play on the counter, and you are giving them a whole lot of space to exploit. They will be giving you a lot less space. 

The first thing I would do is watch back that Valencia game and see how they ripped you apart, and shore that up first. You should not be losing any game 7-1 as Real Madrid. 

[lam]

I would hazard a guess that you are getting buggered down the wings.

I think any opposition deep midfielder is going to have a ton of time on their hands to make a great pass down the flanks bypassing your midfield.

Check the assists against your team. Are they from the flanks?

Think about it.... how many advanced players do you have on (A) and with a positive mentality they will be well up the field. If you lose the closing down game your midfield and flanks are exposed.

[Speedylad123]

2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Probably because Real and Utd are two different teams. They may both be top-class sides in terms of quality and reputation, but it does not mean one same tactic will fit them both. Different types of players require different types of tactic.

 

Btw, I have to admit that I personally don't like this tactic at all, even if it won everything for you with Man Utd. 4 out of possible 5 attack duties among the front 5 and unnecessarily too aggressive defensive instructions - simply not my cup of tea. No offense of course, just a matter of personal preference 

I wanted to get a different tactic in other than the usual 4-2-3-1 and tried to make this work with a DM. What would you change defensively? I’ve always ever used a high press type of defence that tries to get the ball back so we have possession. I’ve only just started playing this FM after missing the past couple of years so a lot has changed. 

 

What is wrong with 4 out of 5 attack roles may I ask? Just trying to learn and get a better understanding, this wasn’t a possession based tactic as I can’t seen to master that without having 70% possession and 40 odd shots all being long shots. I don’t know how to find th right roles for that 

[warlock]

1 hour ago, Speedylad123 said:

What is wrong with 4 out of 5 attack roles may I ask? Just trying to learn and get a better understanding, this wasn’t a possession based tactic as I can’t seen to master that without having 70% possession and 40 odd shots all being long shots. I don’t know how to find th right roles for that 

Not a complete answer, but to the first part - 4 out of 5 attack roles - you'll almost always lack a variety of attack - everyone is just going gung-ho for the goal. You need someone to do that, someone to hang back and arrive late, someone to not do that and create the chance for the other guys. As a secondary consideration, what happens when you lose possession (and you will!)? If half of your team is somewhere around the opponent's area and looking to score, how do you defend the counter?*

To the second part - 70% possession and long shots - can you see how they're tied together? If you have a slow build up with possession as the main goal, you're giving the opponent time to drop back, get set and organised in defence, and then - and only then - are you trying to find a route to goal. So the opposition box is packed with defenders, and your players are going to try long shots, or just pass it around before they lose possession.

* If your answer is that half your team is back defending, then you have to accept that there's a huge disconnect between one half and the other. And that seldom works. The magical system is one that lets you create from deep, have enough aggressive players to score, at least a couple of players that hang back and recycle possession, a couple (or more) players who are focussed on defence, and enough flexibility that you can work the ball between them without being so fast that you often lose possession, and not so slow that you let the AI pack the box against you.

Have you ever seen those old variety show acts that are about spinning plates on the top of canes? I always think FM tactics are like that - every time a plate slows down over there you have to run over and speed it up. But when you do that, you turn your back on the plates that are slowing down behind you. In FM, you have to be sufficiently attacking, sufficiently creating, sufficiently defending.

[Speedylad123]

7 hours ago, warlock said:

Not a complete answer, but to the first part - 4 out of 5 attack roles - you'll almost always lack a variety of attack - everyone is just going gung-ho for the goal. You need someone to do that, someone to hang back and arrive late, someone to not do that and create the chance for the other guys. As a secondary consideration, what happens when you lose possession (and you will!)? If half of your team is somewhere around the opponent's area and looking to score, how do you defend the counter?*

To the second part - 70% possession and long shots - can you see how they're tied together? If you have a slow build up with possession as the main goal, you're giving the opponent time to drop back, get set and organised in defence, and then - and only then - are you trying to find a route to goal. So the opposition box is packed with defenders, and your players are going to try long shots, or just pass it around before they lose possession.

* If your answer is that half your team is back defending, then you have to accept that there's a huge disconnect between one half and the other. And that seldom works. The magical system is one that lets you create from deep, have enough aggressive players to score, at least a couple of players that hang back and recycle possession, a couple (or more) players who are focussed on defence, and enough flexibility that you can work the ball between them without being so fast that you often lose possession, and not so slow that you let the AI pack the box against you.

Have you ever seen those old variety show acts that are about spinning plates on the top of canes? I always think FM tactics are like that - every time a plate slows down over there you have to run over and speed it up. But when you do that, you turn your back on the plates that are slowing down behind you. In FM, you have to be sufficiently attacking, sufficiently creating, sufficiently defending.

Thanks! I see your point about the attacking but may I ask what PI’s/Roles/attack or support duties would you suggest if I didn’t want a possession based game but fast attacking phases of attack with good shots on goal and not too many of the “5” roaring towards the goals. Or is it simply a case of putting an IF on support and Mezzela on support and job done? In terms of defending what would you go with if you was a weaker team but you also needed to protect your goal but be efficient in attack when you have the ball with people “arriving late” etc 

[warlock]

2 hours ago, Speedylad123 said:

may I ask what PI’s/Roles/attack or support duties would you suggest if I didn’t want a possession based game

Well, we're getting into 'how to create a tactic' territory and there are already two good threads on that subject:

 

[Experienced Defender]

12 hours ago, Speedylad123 said:

What is wrong with 4 out of 5 attack roles may I ask? Just trying to learn and get a better understanding, this wasn’t a possession based tactic as I can’t seen to master that without having 70% possession and 40 odd shots all being long shots. I don’t know how to find th right roles for that 

I absolutely agree with the answer you've got from @warlock  

 

10 hours ago, warlock said:

Not a complete answer, but to the first part - 4 out of 5 attack roles - you'll almost always lack a variety of attack - everyone is just going gung-ho for the goal. You need someone to do that, someone to hang back and arrive late, someone to not do that and create the chance for the other guys. As a secondary consideration, what happens when you lose possession (and you will!)? If half of your team is somewhere around the opponent's area and looking to score, how do you defend the counter?*

To the second part - 70% possession and long shots - can you see how they're tied together? If you have a slow build up with possession as the main goal, you're giving the opponent time to drop back, get set and organised in defence, and then - and only then - are you trying to find a route to goal. So the opposition box is packed with defenders, and your players are going to try long shots, or just pass it around before they lose possession.

* If your answer is that half your team is back defending, then you have to accept that there's a huge disconnect between one half and the other. And that seldom works. The magical system is one that lets you create from deep, have enough aggressive players to score, at least a couple of players that hang back and recycle possession, a couple (or more) players who are focussed on defence, and enough flexibility that you can work the ball between them without being so fast that you often lose possession, and not so slow that you let the AI pack the box against you.

Have you ever seen those old variety show acts that are about spinning plates on the top of canes? I always think FM tactics are like that - every time a plate slows down over there you have to run over and speed it up. But when you do that, you turn your back on the plates that are slowing down behind you. In FM, you have to be sufficiently attacking, sufficiently creating, sufficiently defending.

Btw, I apologize if my first reply may have sounded a bit harsh (from your point of view), because it was not my intention at all. 

12 hours ago, Speedylad123 said:

I wanted to get a different tactic in other than the usual 4-2-3-1 and tried to make this work with a DM. What would you change defensively? I’ve always ever used a high press type of defence that tries to get the ball back so we have possession. I’ve only just started playing this FM after missing the past couple of years so a lot has changed. 

I would need to first analyze your players to be able to more specifically tell you all the things I would change. But some general principles (for me at least) are the following:

- defending is not just a responsibility of defenders (and defend-duty midfielders), but of the entire team

- in order to be defensively sound, any tactic needs to be balanced in terms of roles and duties, and also take the mentality factor into account at that 

- attacking (in-possession) and transition instructions also affect the way a team defends and the level of defensive risk (plus, mentality, again, for its part affects literally everything)

- telling your players to do (or not do) something through either TIs or PIs does not mean they will (be able to) do all that; not because they don't want to, but because they don't have the right attributes, or (some of them) are inconsistent performers... or are too exhausted to physically carry out the high pressing you demanded from them (for example)... or they may be physically capable of high pressing, but lacking the right mental attributes... and so on.