Leverkusen - Season 14 - The Wide Target Man

[westy8chimp]

I am the James Patterson of this forum for FM18, firing out distinctly average stories one after another... but I hope they are still easy reading and moderately entertaining or even useful.

In season 14 I'm facing up to my demons of FM17... the Wide Target Man. I simply could not get this role to work, and haven't tried again since.

I'm thinking this season will be slightly different to the past 10 or so, I will 1) probably need to tweak more 2) actively need some help from the forum! @Cleon I think you've had some ideas or success with the WTM? @Rashidi have you tried this year? I know when I asked last year you hadn't really had experience with WTM.

Last years thread, though there wasn't much detail or success with it...

https://community.sigames.com/topic/405883-wide-target-man/?tab=comments#comment-10885778

The Wide Target Man

I'm going to approach my initial setup the way I approached the second half of my 'False 9 Season', with what I theoretically think the orthodox use of a WTM should be.

I've made previous mention and example that all of my tactics begin at work, on paper, with a planning stage.

I made some very quick notes a week or so ago when I was half way through Season 13;

Stage 1 - what are the key attributes?

Primary;

• Work Rate - target men are should be the main outlet for the team, so they need to work hard constantly
• Strength - whether to feet or head, the WTM is asked to hold the ball up for the team. He's going to be in his fair share of physical battles
• Teamwork - target men are a role I associate with creating space for others and using knock downs etc. has to be able to, and actively want to, feed in his teammates
• Heading - I don't buy into the school of thought that target man = hoof it, but I do expect a) a mixture of supply b) him to create mismatch at the back post on crosses, for both, he needs to be able to head the ball

Secondary;

• First Touch - again the focus of a lot of supply, needs to be able to control the ball (possibly should be a primary)
• Passing - looking for him to create for his team mates
• Off the ball & anticipation & concentration - ties in with work rate too, as the main outlet he is going to have to be constantly aware that he could be the target for a pass
• jumping - to beat his marker for the high ball (less important the taller the player is, but equally, naturally higher anyway the taller the player is)
• balance - will be in physical battles, can't just be nudged off the ball by his marker/presser

 

I've also noted the obvious, it would be advantageous if the player had physical presence (over 6ft)

 

Stage 2 - what is the roles function and what should I compliment it with?

The WTM is a role that creates space for team mates. He will look to either hold the ball up and play in team mates, or make first time knock downs. Therefore I need players up there in support of him. This could be achieved either by locating players next to him, or giving players roles that make runs into the space he creates.

• AF/CF/Poacher - the AF and CF are my natural instinct for a striker role. They will make runs into the channels for his knock downs and passes. Poacher is a role that worked brilliantly with a normal TM... perhaps too isolated with a WTM
• SS/AM - offset or central? AM on support could be handy to get close to the WTM... SS on attack would look to aggressively feed off the WTM, but may put more burden on the passing/vision/technique of the WTM.
• Winger - I'm pretty much 100% going to have a winger on the opposite flank. Attack or support? Attack more inclined to cross from the byline, giving more time for the WTM to occupy the back stick.
• BBM/MEZ/CM(a) or CM(s) 'get further forward' - midfielders that will run into space ahead of them. BBM/CM could make direct runs forward, Mez could be more useful on the same flank as the WTM to get really close in support.
• DM(s) 'Get further forward/SV - runs from very deep? Maybe work in tandem with some of the other roles above to give a varied option.
• WB/CWB - aggressive option from defence running outside the WTM - could take away the marker or create an overload, direct passing option or a distraction?
• FB(a)/WB - slightly safer option from a back 4, same idea as above.
• SK/DCB/BPD - do I want one or two of these roles inclined to play more direct passes forward? Or stick with CB and let the natural course take action.

 

Roles that I wont consider?

I don't want an advanced playmaker, TQ, ENG - when we enter the opponents half, to utilise the TM, I don't want a playmaker magnet. I could consider a DLP, especially if they like to play long passes or switch flank.

Stage 3 - Possible TI/PI?

• If I use a CM/AM/BBM in any capacity I will probably want to tailor them to either get further forward or move into channels
• In terms of TI, I'm considering exploit flank and/or play wider. Pass into space? High D-line and pressing? Deep line and play structured? Fluid to encourage players around the WTM? not really sure or decisive with these, which is why I think i'll be tweaking more than usual

 

Finding the right player

I'm in season 14 and one of the most reputable clubs in world football. I really thought finding a WTM with 14-15ish in all my required attributes would be a piece of cake.... I was wrong.

Search 1 was quite ambitious and resulted in no players found

I reduced most of the requirements to look for 13 instead of 15 - still no players

I then reduced my attributes but back to 15, again zero results!

Eventually I got a handful of players with search 4, only 2 of which were under the age of 34. Pellegri and Neiva

Pellegri ticked nearly all the boxes. But is 29 and id recently let him go for £80m, 2 seasons after signing him for £99m. I didn't really want to go back down that route

Neiva - and this is the issue with reducing the attributes and values... he really didn't fit the bill at all

------------------

Luckily, I'd thought about the WTM thread halfway through my S.13. And I made a purchase in January window and found one player, albeit rough round the edges, that could do a job especially being 6'7!

And Kayombo was particularly good last year. He has physicals and is 6'0 ... he's by no means ideal but I think the two of them give me enough

 

Tactics

I then created my first knock up of tactics. 4123, 4231. I intend on using the 4123 first.

DM - get further forward

BBM - get further forward/shoot less

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Mez should get close on the inside, FB should support behind and on the outside. Winger attack will attack the byline, allowing the WTM to attack the back post. BBM and DM both getting further forward should progress up field for passes/crosses from the flanks. AF will push the line and run the channels.

I wanted to start standard, flex with few TI... my first changes, based on outcomes, will probably be a shift to fluid and the addition of play wide or exploit flanks.

 

Very quick mock up... here I have added the play wider instruction (otherwise the central 3, especially with DLP, will see majority of the ball.

Same ideas, but AM offers another body close to the WTM.

 

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On pitch size, I've gone for minimum... was a snap decision, but I was thinking if I'm not exploiting pace, I don't need a great deal of open space to play in. I want simple plan of get it to the WTM... feed the runners.

 

Transfer window

The other big signing was Apruzesse... not perfect for any role, but gives me a bit more than Alena/Havertz (who were out and out playmakers in their 30s)

He will be my Mez but can easily play CM/BBM/AM or any playmaker role.

Bye bye Havertz... he was the last of the originals! Great player.

-----------------

Hopefully I can start the season this weekend and do some early analysis of the WTM.

Any advice welcome as I have my doubts how to use the role, or if it is effective in FM.

 

[craiigman]

Very interested in seeing how this one turns out

[westy8chimp]

First two games early tweaks!

First game of the season was the German super cup vs Bayern.

Their scout report showed that there should be space for my Mez and BBM to run into (no opposing DM)

And the match up vs their LB would be favourable (in terms of strength/physique) for my WTM

The game finished 1-1 with both teams scoring a long shot.

Kayombo occupied the WTM role, and I was really disappointed in the game. Like my comments on FM17, I really didn't feel like my team treated the WTM as a target man.

The overall touches show the LW was more involved.

Though I do like the positions Kayombo took up for his touches. Not just limited to the flank like a winger.

In terms of shots, he got on the end of a back post cross which was great, but didn't happen enough. LW and BBM took more shots and touches.

For the Chelsea game and I know it's bad etiquette to change tactic after one game... I used a slightly adjusted version of the 4231 from my OP. The reason is to get an early feel of whether an AM is more useful than a MEZ and whether exploit right flank helps. I've also added a DLP adjusted to the RC of midfield to encourage more play down the right than left. Fluid because I've lost the DM so want to squeeze the CBs closer to the midfield.

Kayombo had the most touches in the match, scoring and assisting

 

[pezza96]

really interested in this, always tried to get a WTM working similar in a way to Norway under Egil Olsen in the 90's but never been successful with it, one thing i did find fairly potent tho was having a cf-a offset into the stcl slot, found he was able to run onto passes and flicks from the wtm much more successfully

[b101]

Interested to follow this and see what you make of it. Can't say that it's a role I've ever looked at and thought 'yep, I can see that working'

[mjas]

Now it looks like current Juventus tactic but reversed. I'm a fan of Mario Mandzukic and his magnificent work rate. How much your WTM is contributed defensively?

Great stuff!

[westy8chimp]

On 25/08/2018 at 20:48, mjas said:

How much your WTM is contributed defensively?

Great stuff!

I will be updating today. Defensive side is hard to analyse, but tackle locations, heat maps, touches are all deeper and wider spread than a winger.. So id say pretty good. Im now an elite side, to really see the wtm defend you should try using it with a smaller team on lower mentality. 

[westy8chimp]

Mid-season analysis

WTM as a threat;

My preconceptions of the role when I go to sleep at night before starting a season and dream about how it will play out was that of a powerful striker playing out wide and dominating the smaller full back at back post.

This does happen, but not to the extent I'd envisaged. It could be because I haven't quite found the perfect player as WTM or maybe my setup isn't right (perhaps I should overload the opposite wing and have him as the spare man on the far side)

Here's a couple of examples;

#7 is my LW Spyropolous and both times it's crosses to the back post for the WTM to head home. (Not sure why in map one, despite an interception by the Frankfurt defender, it shows the whole move, whereas in the second it only shows the cross from after the interception).

And in terms of chances, it's not unusual for the WTM to rack them up over his team mates. But where in other seasons my tactic has played the same regardless of the opposition, in this tactic the WTM involvement is largely dependant on the opponents setup.,... as to whether he plays the creator or finisher.

Against BMG he had most chances.

What has been far more prevalent is his hold up play. And the more I see it, the more it makes sense. It's what I'd expect from an orthodox TM on support duty. Holding the ball up, allowing others to run off of him. He doesn't get much of the glory but I'd say he is the main man of the tactic. Consistently has the most touches and is involved in the majority of goals, just not the final pass or shot.

This goal is typical WTM behaviour in my setup;

A good team build up, WTM comes central, dragging the opponent LB with him and the space opens up down the right flank

Here is the first opportunity, but he pushed too far too soon, but already he has dragged the LB well out of position. Hernandez recycled the ball

Now Allwein is in control, he has some simple passing options and some trickier ones...Kayombo WTM pushes the line, but then drops deep

They've had to drop to a very deep line, but Kayombo holding the ball up with back to goal now has runners to pick out. And often as is the case, the FB(a) is the best option

His cross to the back stick is tapped in by LW

This one is a CL game with the reserves.. Bagaev playing WTM drops really deep and look at the space open to the RB (Arslan)

Again the LW #7 profits with the tap in.

This one is vs RBL, didn't result in a goal but shows how vs a different setup there is still the central occupation by WTM #14 with the overlapping FB #2

Allwein #16 chips into Kayombo who does the classic TM knock down for the FB Lopera.

Nearly another tap in for #7 but his header is straight at the keeper on this occasion.

Some more hold up play, Bagaev again in this case

You can see the theme building "the assist of the assist"

Starts out wide, makes himself available

Cuts inside and plays safe ball to the AM-s

Makes himself available again - plenty of runners making their move now.

On a plate for the RB who swings it in for a tap in goal

 

In terms of defence as asked above... I play in extended highlights, and tend to get around 60% possession and win most games... so I rarely see long defensive phases. If the opponents have a highlight it's usually a set piece or counter goal.

All I can grab is a tackle map, I couldn't say if he makes lots, I grabbed one game where he made a tackle. All it shows is that his tackle point is a lot deeper than the winger. And as I mentioned in my previous post, a look at the spread of touches and heat maps... does show the WTM covers a lot more of the pitch than the LW

 

Just for fun... FM 17 ... lose this game 1-0 by any chance?

 

[westy8chimp]

Mid-season Update

In terms of the WTM output - it reflects the above analysis. A good avg rating, relatively low number of goals and assists... but as a team we are scoring plenty, probably more at this stage than last season. The LW and Striker are really profiting from his hard work. The FB on the right are playing very well too.

Looking at his form last season, you can see a clear influence the role has (rather than it just being the player.... last year he had better than a goal every 2 games, and plenty of assists too)

In terms of form... the big concern is that this is one of 'those' tactics... finely tuned to beat weaker opposition... but seemingly a man short or too 'in-between' vs the best sides.

We lost away to Bayern, away to RBL x2, away to Real Madrid.

It is alarming in terms of Champions League (and already been knocked out of German Cup).

 

[Blyth Spartan]

 

This is my WTM tactic, I've build it around Vokes (signed him on a free this season). My all-welsh-players team are playin their second season in the BPL and are 9th atm in january 2022.

The role in itself is really interesting.  

(Just got back from a big injury)

[kpsia518]

hard to find an WTM tactic,& i saw this in FMSCOUT :

https://www.fmscout.com/a-fm18-tactic-il-metodo-brutale.html

[b101]

@westy8chimp - the question is, to what extent is this just a one-dimensional tactic? I think it's clear that you've got the WTM set up really well and that FB overload for the far post cross is a really nice way of working space, but how much other than that does the WTM offer? I know you've got some quality players, so I'm sure they do some other stuff on their own - so just wondering if the tactic is set up to do more than just this.

On 24/08/2018 at 12:35, westy8chimp said:

Mez should get close on the inside, FB should support behind and on the outside. Winger attack will attack the byline, allowing the WTM to attack the back post.

Also find it really interesting looking back at the OP and seeing how it's almost flipped around totally!

[westy8chimp]

57 minutes ago, b101 said:

Also find it really interesting looking back at the OP and seeing how it's almost flipped around totally!

Yeh one of those things... Ive gone into most seasons with a good idea of how the tactic should play out and no plan b.... This time i had two preset formations ready to use as i havent had any success with WTM before. When the first game was 1-1 with goal coming from a long shot and very few chances and littlw involvement from the wtm... I made the immediate switch (probably exaggerated and expedited because i already had doubts going into the season). Beat Chelsea 5-2 and wtm got goal and assist... So havent looked back. Not a single tweak since

Its not overly one dimensional. The spread of goals isnt like my previous seasons... But the variety is in the supply. Amc has over 10 assists, nearly all through balls... The rbs have assists from crosses, wtm gives knock downs, left winger makes plenty of crosses. 

Im enjoying the wtm role a lot this time round. Will post a couple of goals in a mo. i have no passing instructions and the setup wasnt devised to keep possession... But its very well balanced and the roles im using combine well to give me 60%ish possession and some lovely pass and move goals. 

[westy8chimp]

Pass and move it's the Leverkusen groove

Kayombo my main WTM is out injured, so another in-house solution presents itself. Allwein... the former DLP turned BPD turned Regista turned AMC now adds WTM to his portfolio.

In his first game as WTM he got a goal and assist and we won 8-0. Here is the pick of the goals from that game, Allwein the provider.

From the start of the move he comes very deep, always looking to present an option to his teammates

The patience is key as it allows the runners to get involved, so WTM plays back inside while we wait for the FB to get up

As the move continues we aren't going down that route, we play more centrally and Allwein takes up more of a strikers role, running beyond the last defenders

He brings out the keeper and lays it on a plate for the BBM

And in this game Bagaev, the 6'7 giant, was back fit so he played WTM and was the scorer in this move.

This move is great, again the patience and continual probing... we eventually overload the right dragging defenders into a 5vs3... so we have space on the left flank and switch play

The defence shifts again and our 3 are no longer marked by 5 and can make goal side runs.

Bagaev with the towering header vs the opposition LB at the back post. Golden stuff

[Deego619]

Great content, I've been waiting for a WTM thread for ages! From what I understand of it, this role is really suited for bringing out the best in a rampaging full back or a midfielder running from deep? Definitely food for thought for me in LLM as I've just had a 5* CA/PA left back come through my academy and he's by far the best player on my team/one of the best in the division so I need to find a way to build my team around his abilities. 

[westy8chimp]

1 minute ago, JDeeguain said:

this role is really suited for bringing out the best in a rampaging full back or a midfielder running from deep?

Yes, this is exploratory for me, where some of my previous threads are my version of a 'how to' for certain styles/formation.

I've definitely found the best partner with the WTM has been my FB(a). If I was ever using a role again id make sure I was using an attacking full back or wing back... it's beautiful synergy.

My initial intention was to have a Mezala also feeding off the WTM. I only gave it one game... theoretically it should work. I've found success by having the AMC up there with him.

 

[Ghents]

A lot of good information here. I've been thinking about toying with a 433 with a W-S CF-S WTM-A and a flat midfield of BBM, CM-A, DLP-S

[westy8chimp]

28 minutes ago, Ghents said:

A lot of good information here. I've been thinking about toying with a 433 with a W-S CF-S WTM-A and a flat midfield of BBM, CM-A, DLP-S

If you go with it, feel free to add some analysis or feedback on this thread. Could be interesting to see if the WTM on attack is vastly different to mine playing on support.

[Ghents]

I used it a bit trying out an idea Cleon had with a Libero and WTM and the WTM-A could be a real force, doing a little bit of everything especially if you support him with supply and runners. I'll try to tinker with it some this weekend and update.

[howard moon]

Do you have any screens to share of passes received by the WTM? I’m curious about how and where he receives the ball. @westy8chimp

[westy8chimp]

52 minutes ago, howard moon said:

Do you have any screens to share of passes received by the WTM? I’m curious about how and where he receives the ball. @westy8chimp

Im up to cl semi final... So probably 6 or so games left to play... Ought to finish the season tomo night and finish the thread on friday/saturday. Ill add some analysis on that. 

Its mostly wide if he receives the ball early... The higher up the pitch the narrower he becomes... More exaggerated than a normal winger id say.

[westy8chimp]

Passes Received

As requested, I guess what it shows is a bit more variety, and certainly more volume for the WTM receiving passes compared to the Winger

Another lovely pass and move goal

 

[westy8chimp]

CL Final

Scout report - I don't like the look of this, counter with my formation has been the hardest style to break down. They have two DMs (my main assister this season is AMC) and they have defensive full backs (my main outlet is AMR my joint top scorer is AML)

Lineups

Monaco broke his leg 3 days before the final, he's  a key sub, but the first team is in good shape

Here is how we kick off... nothing much to shout about but 8 seconds in and we have our first direct pass to the WTM

As for the rest of the half...was a tale of boredom and rubbish finishing

Hernandez wasn't firing, my winger had picked up a knock and my DLP wasn't ticking. No changes, just a good telling off

Soon after the break we had our first proper opportunity

Spyropolous hitting the bar from inches out!

Shortly after though...

Barca lead with a penetrative counter exploiting my high d line and lack of holding midfield player

Time for some changes

Injured players are subbed and Hernandez is hooked. I've offset my forward now to be closer to WTM and changed role to AF so he doesn't come as deep as the CF was

Allwein changed to DLP see if he can work his magic.

Nothing happening... 20 mins flies by without a highlight...

2 upfront, DLP set to RPM... panicking now! Where is Monaco the super sub when I need him

We created a half chance at the death but ... we lost 1-0

News:

Westy Chimp was seen giving a prolongued wave to the fans at the sound of the full time whistle. Some emotional hugs with his players too ...

Just an off day at the office.

 

[westy8chimp]

End of Season

Won the league, despite some dodgy spells as the season went on. The highlight was our goals scored. Particularly as this was one of the more orthodox setups I've used in my 14 seasons.

 

Euro form... well pretty good until the end. Huge doubts after the Semi Final first leg, but we came back to smash them, with a superb performance by the WTM

squad - goal and assist distribution. Spyropolous the winger really did thrive with the overloads occurring down the right flank leaving him open. I didn't screen shot it but he also had the most chances in the league and 70% shot on target ratio.

Westy Chimp hangs up his hat!

The journey is over. I had wanted to go down the experi-mentalist approach with another avant garde tactic attacking from the back (strikerless and no AMC) but strikerless has been done and I just bought a new laptop (5* speed and high graphics!) new laptop ... new beginnings  

I enjoyed my time at Leverkusen, my favourite save of FM18

I made two enemies in my time... RBL seemed a lot harder to beat than the record suggests... but particularly the first 5 or so seasons they were a beast

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Hopefully the threads have shown the game can be fun & quick. There are no hard and fast rules. Success can be had with pretty much any tactic...

the key thing to remember ... every choice from; player (attributes, PPMS), formation, PI, TI, mentality, shape ... it's all intertwined and part of one big picture. Don't treat any of them in isolation!

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[b101]

55 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

I just bought a new laptop (5* speed and high graphics!) new laptop

Great work - which did you go for in the end?

Good read as ever, and I'm looking forward to whatever you have in store next.

[sherifdinn_]

On 27/08/2018 at 12:34, westy8chimp said:

In terms of the WTM output - it reflects the above analysis. A good avg rating, relatively low number of goals and assists... but as a team we are scoring plenty, probably more at this stage than last season. The LW and Striker are really profiting from his hard work. The FB on the right are playing very well too.

Exactly how it should be, hell rarely get involved in goals and assists, but he'll be the player with the highest value of xA (pre assist). Mario mandzukic was a prime example of a player that thrived I'm this role, he was the main key/ unsung hero in Jive's succesful 16/17 season.