Why is this tactic so rubbish?

[Leccy]

Hi

My tactic seems to lack creativity/goals, so wondered if you guys could take a look.

I welcome advice from anyone but I enjoy reading @summatsupeer posts so would be great if he could take a look as well.

I'm Como in Serie C.

Control - I'm probably the 5th best team in the league so I feel I need to move the ball quickly to create against defensive teams

Flexible - I don't want to isolate my striker so avoided structured but I also have slow defenders so avoided fluid.

I anticipate my goals to come from the IF and Winger

Quick edit - I'm playing FM17 so don't have those fancy new roles

[craiigman]

My first question would be, who’s making runs in behind/into the box? 

[Atarin]

No ones going past your striker for a start. You're putting a huge amount of pressure on your striker to hold the ball up whilst those around him make a move to receive the ball in space. You've really got to get some penetration going by turning your IF(s) into an IF(a) or just up your mentality and accept that your attacks will be laboured because you'll be playing the ball around the edge of the box without anyone really threatening to go one on one with the keeper. I'd  also not use a Winger on support. Who's he pinging early crosses into? Your DLF(s) is dropping off and your IF(a) is arriving late. I'd switch him to a AP(a) or at a push an AP(s) to give you some variety but also some penetration. You could say you're suffering from a little bit of Arsenalitis. Too many creators, not enough finishers.

[summatsupeer]

2 hours ago, Leccy said:

Control - I'm probably the 5th best team in the league so I feel I need to move the ball quickly to create against defensive teams

You need to do what your players are good at.  Low Tempo possession tactics stilll work if thats what your players are good at.  If your players are good physically, technically and with some mental attributes that fit a quick style then that can work to.

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 Flexible - I don't want to isolate my striker so avoided structured but I also have slow defenders so avoided fluid.

Isolating a forward is more down the roles+duties for the forward and players expected to support him.  Shape would be unlikely to fix or cause this issue.

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I anticipate my goals to come from the IF and Winger

Why?

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Quick edit - I'm playing FM17 so don't have those fancy new roles

You want to move the ball quickly, but which players are going to move forward quickly off the ball?  All your team is support or defend, a AP-A is still more of a support player to, it looks like your making a possession tactic.  Everyone is willing to make themselves available for a simple pass to there feet and sometimes make a off the ball run, 3 players want to play risky passes often and 3 players want to dribble with it.  No one is willing to take a risk and get forward early and attack space whilst its there, yes if you move the ball too slowly you will give teams time to get back and organized and then that attack duty won't have space to run into and will be less effective, is that the attack duty forwards fault or the passing?

If you want the wide forwards to help defend then pull them back to ML + MR, then you can use attack duties if you want them to make earlier attacking runs than they do now.  Maybe the winger could be support and the CM-A becomes a early central runner to get near the DLF or past him.  If your forward is actually being isolated maybe try a DF-S or DF-D, if he gets the ball he'll likely pass to the CM-S or AP-A who might be better at playing through the runners?  Passing moves the ball quicker than dribbling so do you want your AP running with the ball, especially as he is likely to be collecting it in deep locations from the DM/defenders/WBs. As always it depends what fits your players attributes, don't worry too much about positional familiarity.

[Leccy]

2 hours ago, craiigman said:

My first question would be, who’s making runs in behind/into the box? 

 

1 hour ago, Atarin said:

No ones going past your striker for a start. You're putting a huge amount of pressure on your striker to hold the ball up whilst those around him make a move to receive the ball in space. You've really got to get some penetration going by turning your IF(s) into an IF(a) or just up your mentality and accept that your attacks will be laboured because you'll be playing the ball around the edge of the box without anyone really threatening to go one on one with the keeper. I'd  also not use a Winger on support. Who's he pinging early crosses into? Your DLF(s) is dropping off and your IF(a) is arriving late. I'd switch him to a AP(a) or at a push an AP(s) to give you some variety but also some penetration. You could say you're suffering from a little bit of Arsenalitis. Too many creators, not enough finishers.

Thanks guys, I always shy away from Attack duties for my forwards because I find my players seem to be isolated or run into cul de sacs. But what you've said makes perfect sense, I need to change that.

 

7 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

No one is willing to take a risk and get forward early and attack space whilst its there, yes if you move the ball too slowly you will give teams time to get back and organized and then that attack duty won't have space to run into and will be less effective, is that the attack duty forwards fault or the passing?

Ok thanks for your help, I think I have enough to go away and experiment with but just a question on this.

Like most people on these forums it seems my biggest problem is breaking down defensive sides.

I shy away from attack duties as my players seem to end up just pressed up against the back line with no depth.

You have suggested passing could be the issue rather than my choice of duty, can you expand on this a bit? Do you mean going more direct, maybe through the use of player instructions? For this to work I assume I need to allow teams on to me a bit.

[summatsupeer]

That's the idea, player and ball movement fitting together.

Doesn't have to be direct passing but can be easier to execute as the moves tend to be simple and rely on technical + physical attributes.  The more direct the passing the sooner the deep runners need to get forward or the longer the forward has to hold up the ball unless he has immediate close support from a 2nd forward or AM that doesn't drop deep. 

To play shorter passes and still attack quickly takes better mental attributes to read the game and make quick good decisions to use space before it disappears and your players just resort to pot shots.

Ideally you want to let opponents into the middle third so they commit players forward and there line pushes up. I think control is fine for this.  Higher line or harder pressing could pin opponents in too often.

Having a plan B is useful for when opponents do get deep and organized.  Varied movement such as a forward dropping or overlapping are good to create space or if you have a big forward having a FB swing some crosses into him could be viable.

[enigmatic]

I mean, your tactic isn't so much "rubbish" as generic and average

FM17 works extremely well (too well) offensively when you have lots of people running into the box. You've got one player running into the box from a wide position and a forward running into the box generally later in the move and everyone else arrives very late or not at all.

Defensively you're not too bad, but your wingbacks and ball winning midfielder might leave your two centre backs exposed to fast breaks, especially if they're not great centre backs. One overpowered FM17 way of dealing with it is to have your wingbacks instructed to sit narrow, which will mean they're more likely to help your midfield win back a lost ball in midfield (especially since your forwards and AP won't do a lot of work there), and also tend to make more dangerous runs into the box rather than crossing from wide positions which isn't that effective in FM17 especially not without targets to hit. This also helps you put more attacking duties on other players.

[westy8chimp]

3 hours ago, Leccy said:

I welcome advice from anyone but I enjoy reading @summatsupeer posts so would be great if he could take a look as well.

His advice is solid as ever, but the same as ever :D if you enjoy reading his posts you should have already known most of this.

You've basically triggered his #1 on the shortkeys of advice for solid foundations

[Leccy]

1 hour ago, westy8chimp said:

His advice is solid as ever, but the same as ever if you enjoy reading his posts you should have already known most of this.

You've basically triggered his #1 on the shortkeys of advice for solid foundations

 Fair point

[crusadertsar]

I mean you only have like one attack duty. You want your playmaker to be the only one scoring goals?

[Robson 07]

7 hours ago, westy8chimp said:

His advice is solid as ever, but the same as ever if you enjoy reading his posts you should have already known most of this.

You've basically triggered his #1 on the shortkeys of advice for solid foundations

He has to take the bait, surely.

[RodentofDoom]

21 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

I mean you only have like one attack duty. You want your playmaker to be the only one scoring goals?

If I'm using a AML/R+ST as my front 3 I will often use IF(Su) + W(At) + DLF(Su)

the IF typically ends up being my goal threat, the Winger is often a close 2nd, if I've managed to get everything else right too.

The Attack duty players don't always end up as the main goal scorers if the formation isn't set up to support that.

 

However you are right that 1 attacking duty is very conservative, 2-4 more would be more fitting to an aggressive control or attack mentally.