Leverkusen Season 4 - The False 9

[westy8chimp]

Background

Seasons 1 & 2 - 4123 slow build up developed into a 4231 orthodox approach seeing us finish 3rd and 2nd respectively and completing Herne's tactical challenge (limited TI and PI).

More detail on seasons 1&2 can be found here; https://community.sigames.com/topic/433707-leverkusen-challenge-2/

Season 3 - a move to attacking high tempo football, attempting to play like the flair infested Brazil sides of old, saw us win the league

More detail can be found here; https://community.sigames.com/topic/434557-leverkusen-continuedginga-style/

What now?

Inspired by Cleon's topics on individual roles I'm going to focus on using a 'False 9' in my fourth season.

I've not used the role before in FM - it was introduced at a time where I felt in real life it was becoming to much of a fad or 'buzz term'. Football manager introducing it FM13? Maybe 14? seemed very much like a hop onto the bandwagon. I don't blame them, SI need to keep up to date with modern football, it just annoyed me on a personal note as they chose to adopt it, seemingly off the back of it's misuse in real life at the time (or rather the commentators and pundits misuse of the term 'False 9'). I'll expand in a moment**

The False 9

I'm sure we all know what the false 9 is and some good examples of recent teams that have used it...but I like to pad out thread a little bit.

A long time ago when the world was a better place player numbers meant something....

Before this nonsense...

Number 9 was your centre forward and came with the implication of where they would be placed on the pitch (in and around the penalty area). Therefore, every team also had a big centre half assigned to mark the number 9. Life was simple and the battle ensued CF vs CB clouting each other for 90 minutes whilst wingers tried to maze their way around the pitch avoiding challenges that make Vinnie Jones seem like a cuddly teddy-bear.

That was until the False 9 crept into the game. CF who started questioning the status quo "I don't want to be kicked up in the air by that huge CB for 90 mins". The CF dropped deeper than convention had dictated, so wasn't a true number 9, hence 'false 9'. The first renowned F9 were; Juan Anslemo - the first ever recognised use of a F9 at World Cup (1930), Matthias Sindelar part of the 'Wunderteam' (Austria 1934),  and Hungary legend Nandor Hidegkuti (1950s).

The best modern example would be Messi under Guardiola.

** The example I hate is Cesc Fabregas in Euro 2012 final where Spain pumped Italy 4-0. This may cause some argument, but to me calling Cesc the false 9 in that match is totally misleading, and a symptom of the time. Guardiola is a cool guy and very good tactical manager... with that, comes trends in the footballing world... once he had played Messi as F9, pundits around the world were lapping up any chance to use the term. In my opinion Spain just setup a strikerless formation. Cesc wasn't a typical number 9 who caused confusion by dropping deeper and making the CBs have to come up with a plan on the fly. He is and was an orthodox midfielder, playmaker, attacking midfielder. Italy will have seen the lineup and known exactly what to expect from him in terms of positional play. If Torres had been in the lineup, the Italy defence would be thinking 'poacher' he is going to play on our shoulder, run the channels etc ... so if he started and then occupied the 10 zone, it would cause confusion, and that is the role of the False 9. To make it even worse... Cesc even wore the number 10 shirt  and played exactly like the modern day 10.

IMO - False 9 is not a strikerless formation, it is leading the opponent to assume an orthodox number 9, who in turn setup their marking (zonal or man) as if they were playing against a conventional number 9, then when the game kicks off and the 9 drifts deep it should cause unexpected chaos.

The False 9 drops deep meaning the CBs have a choice, do they follow him out leaving space behind for onrushing midfielders/wide men... or do they stay put and allow the F9 freedom to pick a pass or dribble with the ball.

FM has it right in this regard by limiting the role to the striker strata, and the in game description matches the sentence above.

However, the hard coded PI are a little annoying. Risky passes (the F9 can show traits of an AP, but in my mind doesn't have to so shouldn't be hardcoded), move into channels (again, they can, but shouldn't they also just drive straight at the heart of the defence whilst IFs or Mez occupy the half space?). I'd prefer no locked PI - just built in behaviour to drop deep.

Tactics

I'll use this graphic but with the caveat; I see Totti at Roma as another example often provided of modern F9, which in my opinion falls similarly into the Fabregas example. This is an attacking midfielder with striker qualities, not a striker dropping into midfield, in what is essentially just a strikerless tactic!

It does show what I classify as a good F9 setup though, so forget the team and the players this is the kind of movement I see as key for F9

I would translate this into FM (albeit I've switched round the 2 wide men and 2 CMs) as something like;

This is certainly a consideration when I get into the season as to how I will setup.

The F9 will drop deep so I need players to link with him and players to exploit space left behind.

The IF(a) and Winger should provide the latter (Winger may need to be changed to attack duty... or even another IF or RMD).

The MEZ should attack the left hand channel where the IF will attack the right hand channel.

The RPM should be in direct support - so I could see some give and go behaviour between F9 and RPM.

DLP will bridge the defence and attack, with support duty should also offer some support in the attacking phase as a safe backward pass.

Defence is a standard back 4 - I don't need full backs being too advanced as that's not in the gameplan. Perhaps the FB on the right side could be attacking to go outside the IF -> the best scenario would be to occupy a defender or two, but I'd fear the team would too often use him as an outlet, or he could even congest the area by bringing the opponent winger with him.

TIs: to encourage a less direct style of play - the F9 needs time to drop deep, the runners need time to attack the space. I really don't think direct play or high tempo will work with these roles. Short passing, POD, work into box should all help decrease the tempo. Standard mentality could be changed to control, and maybe need a modifier on tempo. Fluid to keep the players in touch of each other. Flexible would probably be fine... I wouldn't consider structured at this stage as I want plenty of support in and around the ball.

Another option to how I may lineup;

Easier transition considering I was in a 31411 last season.

The F9 is typically a lone striker role, but I can see it really feeding nicely off of a TM or CF/AF. I would using the second striker TM/AF to occupy the CBs, and provide a good outlet for the F9 - turning provider and scorer in equal measures. Especially as the TM should stay high up the pitch, pushing the opponent back, hold the ball up, hopefully give the F9 more space to drop deep into.

DLP and RPM will be the same as described above.

The MEZ and wingers will still be there to push on into space.

Again TI to slow the play down and allow time for all the relevant movement off the ball.

Expected limitations

As mentioned this is a role I haven't used before. Therefore, I have no preconceptions or gripes with how it works. The only thing I'm concerned about is that the ME won't be dynamic enough for opponent CBs to understand they are facing a F9. I don't see one team deciding to mark him while another decides to give him space (that may happen, but not as a direct result of me selecting a F9). I may be wrong and it would be good to see them adapt so that my F9 has chances to both draw them out providing space behind, or be given space to dribble and play intricate passing moves.

My guess is the defence will stay as is for the most part and opponent DMs will be the issue I'm faced with in terms of F9 having space to work. We will see how it goes and what I can do to nullify playing against deep midfields.

PPMs& attributes

In the previous seasons I've worked heavily on PPMs, some of the direct midfield running may be an issue with this new tactic. If it is I'm not opposed to an overhaul (would be sad to lose the guys who won me the league, but I am fully committing to each approach season on season).

Putting the midfield aside as I don't think the PPMs are very important (maybe RPM to play one twos, which Arthur already does, is nice... and wingers/mez to 'get further forward', 'get into opposition area')

The F9 -> important that they like to come deep to retrieve the ball. That's what the role is all about so any additional emphasis will be great. Nice to have would be 'runs through the centre' and 'plays one twos'

TM -> well I have Petagna already and he is the best example of what will pair nicely. Back to goal, plays one twos, with physical attributes to hold the ball up. May need to slightly increase his passing and vision....

The attributes i'll be looking for, primarily for the F9;

• off the ball -> needs good movement to know when to drop deep
• passing, vision, technique -> it's creative role, I will want short crisp passing but the role also has risky passes hard coded
• dribbling, agility -> if the CBs don't follow him out, he will have space to run at
• Finishing -> it's also a goalscoring role, especially if the TM can hold the ball up and play him in, or winger cut backs etc

Nice to have; long shots (I don't encourage it but the chances are he will have lots of the ball in and around the D), first touch (will be seeing a lot of the ball so would be nice if he doesn't miscontrol it too much), composure (will be closed down a lot by DMs and possibly CBs), teamwork (needs to link with RPM, TM etc).

Current players

I have a few strikers that could already play the role. None of them are perfect so I may look to see if I can bring in a more elite player, but if that's not possible, I see no reason why these guys can't do a job;

And if I really need to think outside the box this guy is my all action player (earmarked for the RPM role ideally)

Player Search

This was the initial search criteria. I have to say I thought the list would be bigger and have some more exciting names.

Bid made on Ben Woodburn at face value £26m. Chances are a young homegrown Liverpool will want £100m ... I wouldn't spend more than £30-40m on this player

Second search to try and give me a larger pool of players;

One player jumps out. Of course I have perception bias here because I know him so well... but I couldn't help but be interested in this. Bid made at face value £35m.

 

Season goals

That's where I saved and quit last night. Looking forward to the transfer window, might be a quiet one as all I really need is an elite F9 (Aguero) if I fail I'm happy with what I have. So the window will be dictated by what offers I receive on my players (who I can flog for more than they are worth, and who the AI are able to unsettle ... bout time Bailey was stolen  )

What do I want to achieve this season?

I may add to this, haven't had time to really consider what would be a success or not.

• Primarily this season is about the False 9. So for it to be a success I want that role to be key in everything we do in attack. I will be able to attest to that through observation, but to apply some arbitrary metrics I'd like to see the main player in the role contribute towards 30 goals (i.e. 15 goals and 15 assists). It's not overly difficult so more would be better, but seems a good baseline considering the output from AF and CF in previous seasons.
• Continued league success - no point in the F9 role doing well individually if the team suffers. Top 3 finish minimum, but preferably retain the title
• time for champions league progression - I don't expect to win it, but we have gone from; No Europe season 1, group stage exit season 2, knockout round exit season 3... so QF is the target for season 4
• Style of play - I'd really like to see some nice one twos between the F9 and TM, and the F9 and RPM. This is more of a nice to see than an achievable target

Edited June 12, 2018 by westy8chimp

[herne79]

Another great write up.  Nice job westy .

I've had problems before with "strikers" dropping deep enough for my liking, so I'm interested to see how this pans out for you. 

Something I've never tried before (and keep meaning to) is the F9/F10 combo.  I've toyed with similar roles such as CF(s) / AM(a) which have worked very nicely.  Is that something you've considered?

btw I quite like the look of Muniain as an F9.

[westy8chimp]

29 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Another great write up.  Nice job westy .

I've had problems before with "strikers" dropping deep enough for my liking, so I'm interested to see how this pans out for you. 

Something I've never tried before (and keep meaning to) is the F9/F10 combo.  I've toyed with similar roles such as CF(s) / AM(a) which have worked very nicely.  Is that something you've considered?

btw I quite like the look of Muniain as an F9.

Thanks.

You had problems with them dropping too deep or not enough? I guess i'll monitor that, for me the F9 can't drop deep enough, if he ends up in my own half i'll be happy. What will leave me sour faced is if he loiters around the Trequarista patch nearer the penalty area D ... ideally you want him coming nearer to the half way line than the P area to receive short passes from RPM. 'Comes deeper' will be a mandatory PPM (so yes Muniain looks really good and first thing tonight i'll be setting him and Ben Yedder to train on that trait). Carlos Vela would be my 3rd choice if I was going with lone striker... but I suspect i'll sell him to find a backup TM to cover Petagna if I go with the 2 upfront.

RE CFs/AM... I probably won't go with them... if I don't use the F9 in it's orthodox lone striker role, i'll really want to treat him as a deep poacher so the TM will be great for that. If the TM attracts too many long balls then i'll consider CF a or AF a...the worry then is that they are primary goal scorers so the F9 might go missing. DLF similarly not considered as I don't want both strikers dropping deep.

I should really go with the 4123 and commit 100% to getting the most out of the F9 -> so far I've been good at committing, but now it's season 4 I have a bond with these players  I'll happily shift Muniain from AMC to F9 or replace him with Aguero, then the rest of the lineup is the same as last season. If I go to 4123 I'm introducing two full backs with the loss of a midfielder and CB. I didn't like Wendell or Henrichs and have no backup so the transfer window becomes all about those positions and my £40m would barely get me passable backups let alone replacements for Wendell and Henrichs.

Tough decisions ahead.

Edited June 12, 2018 by westy8chimp

[herne79]

10 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

not enough

That one.

[NabsKebabs]

Enjoying reading your updates. 

I think first touch, balance and decisions are more important for an F9 then dribbling and finishing (although I do look for both of those in an F9)

[Armistice]

Looking forward to see some in game analysis if you ever plan to do it. I've used a F9 in my Leeds save with a SS behind him (so I guess it's some kind of F9 & F10 combo) and it's worked pretty nice to unlock some defences in the Championship.

Edited June 12, 2018 by Armistice

[argenmik]

these threads have been my favourite this year. especially this one. i find the false 9 role quite frustrating, i have given up and begun to use an  Attacking midfielder who arrives late into the box and is heavily involved in build up play, i know this is the inverse of a false 9 but it just works so much better in game. hence why i am so interested in this thread. great stuff.

[argenmik]

1 hour ago, herne79 said:

Something I've never tried before (and keep meaning to) is the F9/F10 combo.  I've toyed with similar roles such as CF(s) / AM(a) which have worked very nicely.  Is that something you've considered?

would this be like Peps Last year at Barca, Cesc and Messi?

[herne79]

33 minutes ago, argenmik said:

would this be like Peps Last year at Barca, Cesc and Messi?

TBH I've never really paid too much attention to how Barcelona or Guardiola set up their tactics.  However I don't think I'd call Cesc a F9, F10 or Shadow Striker.  As westy says above:

3 hours ago, westy8chimp said:

He is and was an orthodox midfielder, playmaker, attacking midfielder.

People who know Barca a lot better than me may have a different view of course and happy to be corrected, but personally I feel there can sometimes be too many "hipster" labels bandied about when actually all someone is is an attacking midfielder with great passing and movement ability (or whatever).

[westy8chimp]

1 hour ago, NabsKebabs said:

Enjoying reading your updates. 

I think first touch, balance and decisions are more important for an F9 then dribbling and finishing (although I do look for both of those in an F9)

Touch - yes, it is important, I've put it in the secondary bracket but equally could be in the top. My idea is to keep these threads relatively simple, it's hopefully for basic players to understand a process and that there is a connect between players (PPM & attribute) and the formation. And within the formation that every role, duty, mentality, shape, instruction is important to the whole (and not standalone decisions). To keep it simple I'm trying to select just a few attributes

Decisions - at first thought its surely an important attribute for everyone, you don't want people making wrong decisions right? But if you go deeper ... what does a good decision imply? To me it's that the player will take time to think (you can't make a good decision as quickly as you can act on instinct). It suggests there are a large number of options that require thought (if you can only pass to one player, there is no decision to make). Then once he makes a good decision he still needs the skill to follow through with it. Therefore, I kind of acknowledge that higher is better in most cases, but I never focus on it.

another thought on decision... let's say my F9 has come deep and received the ball via RPM. He isn't being pressed (because we are living in Utopia) - so he looks up and sees the Winger advancing out wide, the IF making a darting run in the channel, a Mezalla pushing past him from midfield and the RPM open for a safe backwards pass. What is the right decision? Football is incredibly objective. In line with my TI the right decision is work ball into box, so may go for the nearest safe option in an advanced position of his own... so the Mez who has just run past him? do I want my F9 playing that ball regularly? The F9 is also hard coded for risky passes, so would a low decision making attribute temper that? ... it's too much to think about to actively base my transfers on a player with high decision making.

Balance -  in my opinion, works with strength (almost the attacking equivalent for players with a smaller physique). If you want say Hazard dribbling a lot, he needs agility to make the sharp turns, and high balance to be able to stay on his feet when oafish defenders try and shoulder him off the ball or tackle him down. The F9 does dribble, but should be primarily dribbling into open areas, not through crowded areas where he will be challenged often. Plus my own preferences is players who evade challenges rather than ride them (Wingers who 'knock ball past opponent' etc).

-----------------

48 minutes ago, Armistice said:

Looking forward to see some in game analysis if you ever plan to do it. I've used a F9 in my Leeds save with a SS behind him (so I guess it's some kind of F9 & F10 combo) and it's worked pretty nice to unlock some defences in the Championship.

As this is role based it makes the analysis easier for me, as I can pinpoint heat maps, avg position etc to one player. So yes I do intend on doing some and hopefully I can do it sensibly  when trying to analyse at a team level I just find all the various tools become blobs of colour and lines and offer me very little help.

----------------

4 minutes ago, herne79 said:

I feel there can sometimes be too many "hipster" labels bandied about when actually all someone is is an attacking midfielder with great passing and movement ability (or whatever).

 Precisely. And now we have moved on from magical AMs it's all about pressing. For me 'Gegenpressing' has been doing the rounds far too much over the last 5 years. Anyone who closes the ball down even half-heartedly anywhere on the pitch is now 'Gegenpressing' and the manager is a modern genius

[zlatanera]

Just want to say I've enjoyed these threads - as someone who panics at the first sight of trouble with his tactics a lot of the time (was moving away from that with my past couple of saves) I like to see someone making a plan and sticking to it.

If you got with the 3-1-4-2 I'd be really interested to see how the strike partners do work together - just from first glance I'd imagine the F9 is indeed going to become a sort of Poacher as you have two Wingers and a TM for them to aim for, but obviously I don't know enough to say for sure. 

[Cam8]

Personally, I think the F9 role needs a total rework. The movement of the F9 in FM is just so inconsistent and barely drops deep.

[westy8chimp]

3 hours ago, herne79 said:

That one.

[RE movement not deep enough]

Just now, Cam8 said:

Personally, I think the F9 role needs a total rework. The movement of the F9 in FM is just so inconsistent and barely drops deep.

Thanks you two... now I'm really excited to get home and play my save  

I hope I don't see the same behaviour - I'm sure your observations are correct but maybe different setup = different result?

If it is a fail all I can do is explain what I saw, what I attempted etc and will put it all in the end of season summary. If it's really bad I can submit a bug report - as I will be, in theory, creating good condition for an F9 and using a relevant player.

[herne79]

2 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

Thanks you two... now I'm really excited to get home and play my save  

Remember I stressed "for my liking".  The F9 can indeed drop off, especially using a player with a suitable PPM and the tactical set up you employ, I just wanted something different to what the F9 offered.  I tried the F9 as a starting point, found it didn't achieve the specific movement that I wanted at the time, so changed it.

I'm interested to see how it works out for you in your system (which is completely different to the system I was using).

[yonko]

It's an interesting project you have going on. I will be following it with interest. The False 9 doesn't play the way I like it. It needs a little tweak in the ME. Needs to drop deeper, no moves into channels and less shooting. Personally I don't want my F9 dribbling too much (unless it's Messi) and would prefer the role to drop deep, play one-twos or play through balls to the players running beyond him and then surge into the penalty area as the play develops into the final third.

For PPMs I like: comes deep, plays one-twos, tries killer balls often, refrains from long shots, places shots.

The role needs a runner from wide and one from deeper position - so one midfielder on Attack duty and one wide role with attack duty, either side of the F9. In your case I would change the Mez to Attack. 

[NabsKebabs]

The F9 doesn't drop quite deep enough for my liking either. It drifts wide a lot but not very deep. So having the player with the PPM "drops deep to get ball" can be very important to get the right movement. 

[westy8chimp]

Transfer window

As expected it was time for the giants to come after Bailey. Stoke  needless to say I staved them off and Bailey is still with me sitting happily in his rightful place on the right wing

Barcelona came sniffing for Arthur but I also managed to keep onto him with a new contract and higher min. fee release clause (£100m).

One player I didn't keep hold of was Jonathan Tah. I was really torn on this one - he is one of those players who must have some built in je-ne-sais-quoi - his attributes are mediocre for a top division/CL centre back. The offer wasn't huge but just enough to make me say yes. With an added bonus of 50% of his next fee (not the profit, the whole fee!).

Here is the search I used to replace him, and the two players in my budget that I decided to buy;

No one was perfect so I reduced the attributes piecemeal;

Murilo similar to Tah but young enough to improve his personality and determination - he is learning from Phil Jones (Professional with Det 19) from day 1.

Howedes lacks pace for a back 3 high line, but his true defensive attributes are really good. He may be backup rather than starter - and also a good tutor.

Next up, having settled on the 3142 as my primary tactic, I again released the 'cash cows' on loan (Wendell, Jedvaj, Henrichs, Rhuan). I also needed a new TM to rotate with Petagna.

Step up one of my real life heroes and FM favorites, with good attributes and PPMs and a great left peg, he is very similar to Petagna;

here is the rest of the window activity, again a substantial net gain in transfer fees;

Roberts was a legacy signing from Jan last season (out of contract) and fit in well with the flair, technique and agility mould. He will probably be surplus to requirements this season, but if I give him a few games in cup and Europe I'm sure I can turn a small profit on him in Jan or next summer.

Dias is a really good value wonderkid, and Junior (despite his relatively poor attribute mix) is someone I've had great success with before... I intend to use him as a versatile sub winger/striker

Exiles; Matheusinho, Kagawa, Vela, Cartabia were all brought in for their flair - mostly did a great job last year, but were now unfit to meet the requirements. Coetzee and Caicedo are both good in their own way (Coetzee is a driven CB with decent attributes, Caicedo is a wonderkid) but had to be loaned out as I have my 6/7 CBs for the season. I envisage losing Kompany and maybe Howedes at the end of the season, so these two can come back into the squad.

Minor tactical tweak

I'll talk briefly about my start to the season after this, but a little glimpse - we lost our first game (Super Cup) 6-3 to my arch nemesis RBL (superpowered on FM18 or what?)

I don't like making knee jerk decisions but as I had nagging doubts anyway, before a ball was kicked, I did change my mentality and shape. Control and fluid was a risk and when I chose them I didn't really have 100% clear thought process as to why... so the most sensible thing to do is revert to standard, flexible. Re mentality; I already have TI to raise D line and I don't particularly want high tempo etc that comes with higher mentality. With fluid I may go back to it, but want to solidify my defence first.

The only other change, another I'd been indecisive on pre season, was the left winger. I've made it a WM instead and changed to attack duty.  Having dropped the team mentality I felt I could afford an additional individual attacker.

 

Early season

I seem to have played about 4 hours FM last night but only got a few games in.

Here's the start - pretty good except for the 6-3 whooping and a bizarre thrashing from Freiburg who were 4-0 up by HT. Defeat to Arsenal is ok, as yet again I plug the B team in Europe group stage.

Analysis of the F9 (after 1 game  )

Despite being on the end of a damning lesson from RBL there were some positives. The Aguero (1 goal 1 assist) Giroud (2 goals 1 assist) partnership got off to a flyer. And as I said I'd provide some analysis this season, I thought I'd start in season 1.

I'm not great at analysis - I learn more from watching the game than I do studying heat maps etc, but i'll try to give some useful insight (with the caveat that this is just one match).

Let's get the boring bits out of the way.

His avg. position on the ball;

Now I could show this in isolation and wax lyrical that his position around the half way line is indicative of all those deep movements and he consistently received the ball on the half way line then driving forward and linking with the TM ... but I'd be BSing you.

Yes it seems like a deep position for a striker to have in possession - but when I do the same (I wont show it) for Giroud he was only marginally more advanced. Therefore I think this had more to do with the POD, fluid settings than anything specific to the F9. I may be wrong...

His touches;

Again looks really interesting and I could pretend he'd made such deep runs he was picking the ball up from his GK. It's not the case, the few apparent anomalies I 'showed events' for unfortunately were just opponent corners and throw ins. That accounts for the extreme touches... what I would say in favour of this graphic is that it illustrates plenty of touches inside own half and around the half way line.

Partnership with Giroud and Arthur (the two highest pass combinations);

A little more interesting and building on the above, there is plenty of connectivity both giving and receiving in reasonably deep areas.

This is with Arthur (RPM) - mostly short passes which show Aguero was coming deep, and Arthur was roaming forwards so that they were quite close together on the pitch. Majority is forward passing from Arthur to Aguero, but if you have really good eyesight (and perhaps a little imagination) I'm sure there are a couple of 1-2s in there.

With Giroud; More even distribution in terms of giving and receiving. Some longer passes which I think are good as it shows when the F9 comes deep... TM is holding position more advanced on his attack duty. And when the TM is the passer it shows he 'holds ball up' and F9 is making those poacher-esque runs behind.

Now for the goal combinations which really back up the above.

First Aguero as provider; receives the ball pretty much on half way line and sprays a delightful 30-40 yard through ball to Giroud in the box. Indicative of coming deeper? Risky passes?

And here is Aguero acting the poacher, with Giroud turning provider. Also note the nice 'play out of defence' coming to fruition.

Again it's the 30 yard through ball this time TM to F9. What I love about this goal is that I can show you Aguero's movement. On the face of the event map it looks like he was really advanced acting like a poacher. I locked down his movement map to the exact 30 seconds leading to the goal. The map shows the exact kind of movement I want from my F9 playing in a partnership. He drops deep, (possibly drawing out a marker or two - I've raised a bug report, hopefully my inability to upload videos is fixed soon) but as he wasn't the initial receiver he then goes on a bursting run to become the goalscorer.

The circle indicated the POD pattern. Whilst that is happening Aguero has mad run from an advanced position back to the half way line... simultaneously Giroud becomes the receiver (both he and Aguero were an option at that stage). Aguero showing good OTB, agility and work rate turns on his heels and heads back towards goal. Giroud with a classy pinpoint through ball (indicative of the man)... bang great goal AGUEROOOOOO!!! (oh wait it wasn't a last minute winner it was a 56th minute consolation  )

I'll do more analysis when I reach the mid way stage and have more data to work with.

For anyone who likes fluffy stuff

This event raised an eyebrow... this is exactly why the EPL has it right by not letting players on loan play against their parent club. My mole strikes again, this is so questionable!

One last thing that tickled me as it resonated with some comments from @herne79 and @Cleon over the last few days. I never pay attention to social feed but this caught my eye  

[westy8chimp]

15 hours ago, yonko said:

It's an interesting project you have going on. I will be following it with interest. The False 9 doesn't play the way I like it. It needs a little tweak in the ME. Needs to drop deeper, no moves into channels and less shooting. Personally I don't want my F9 dribbling too much (unless it's Messi) and would prefer the role to drop deep, play one-twos or play through balls to the players running beyond him and then surge into the penalty area as the play develops into the final third.

For PPMs I like: comes deep, plays one-twos, tries killer balls often, refrains from long shots, places shots.

The role needs a runner from wide and one from deeper position - so one midfielder on Attack duty and one wide role with attack duty, either side of the F9. In your case I would change the Mez to Attack. 

Agree RE moves into channel PI, as mentioned in the OP. And it's that PI which possibly causes the behaviour you have been disgruntled with Nabs.

I haven't seen it yet but I'm only a few games in. Mostly the touches, heat map indicate heavily in favour of central areas. Maybe my winger on attack on the right side is prohibiting too much side ways movement from my F9.

RE PPMs yes agree and noted a couple of the same in the OP. Aguero has 'comes deep' and 'places shots'. He's too long in the tooth to waste time learning traits now (old dogs and all that). But would have loved him to come with 1-2s and less long shots.

Mez attack - definitely a 50/50 decision in the 4123 I detailed. Less of an option in my 3142 but it's in the back of my mind as a potential change if required. Havertz has had to play that role in my first few games due to injuries and has scored 3 setup 1 already on support duty. With TM and F9 already as central options and now I have 2 attacking wide men... his support duty is working well.

3 hours ago, NabsKebabs said:

The F9 doesn't drop quite deep enough for my liking either. It drifts wide a lot but not very deep. So having the player with the PPM "drops deep to get ball" can be very important to get the right movement. 

[Cleon]

Cracking thread this and the others you've done recently 

 

RE The F9 - I feel in a 2 striker system his moving into channels is negligible. You only really notice its an issue if he's the lone striker imo as the role as designed with the intention of it being mainly for 1 striker formations. 

[herne79]

Great analysis and even better MS Paint skillz .

3 minutes ago, Cleon said:

You only really notice its an issue if he's the lone striker imo as the role as designed with the intention of it being mainly for 1 striker formations. 

Would you consider the F9 is another one of those roles which may benefit from only being allowed in the TC under certain conditions?  So only being able to use the F9 when a lone striker?

[westy8chimp]

False 9 principle is just that it's a number 9 that makes deceptive deep runs/unorthodox start position. Let's assume we have an orthodox 9 -> there's no reason they wouldn't play in a two upfront, so whilst it's mostly considered a lone striker role, I don't think there's particular reason for it to be.

• Perception - if you had a F9 with a TM in real life many pundits would just refer to them as a deep lying striker or a number 10s. Even if the player is associated as a classic 9 and starts showing exactly the type of movement and traits of a False 9. They just want be called false 9 for no logical reason. And unfortunately it's post game anaylsis by pundits that drive a lot of football theory, and we only get the true facts from managers and players years after the event when they came out with a book or become pundits themselves.
• The nature of the role lends itself better to lone striker formation- when your F9 drops deep you need attacking runs from midfielders. In a classic F9 setup can you afford attacking midfielders from multiple angles AND another striker? Most teams couldn't afford that luxury. I'm not playing classic F9 tactical setup... but I am still assuming typical F9 behaviours in my tactical plan. 

The lack of real life F9 in 2 striker formation,  both in terms of use and discussion, probably leads it to be considered a lone striker role.

The only TC (in it's current format) fixed behaviour/criteria should be forcing the F9 to drop deep. I don't really understand why channels and risky passes are hard coded.

Could open up another can of worms and go back to my statement in the 'roles for FM19 thread' that no behaviour should be hard coded and I should have a PI I can assign to a generic CF role 'drop deeper'  

I'd like the ME to become more dynamic, I suspect in some ways with attributes (decisions, off the ball, vision etc) it is, but in terms of role relationships e.g. an IF (a) should make much more aggressive, early runs when there is a lone F9 in front, than if say a CF (s). I'm not convinced it has that kind of intelligence other than to say the players movement and decision should dictate that behaviour.

 

 

[Cleon]

3 hours ago, herne79 said:

Great analysis and even better MS Paint skillz .

Would you consider the F9 is another one of those roles which may benefit from only being allowed in the TC under certain conditions?  So only being able to use the F9 when a lone striker?

Quote

False 9 principle is just that it's a number 9 that makes deceptive deep runs/unorthodox start position. Let's assume we have an orthodox 9 -> there's no reason they wouldn't play in a two upfront, so whilst it's mostly considered a lone striker role, I don't think there's particular reason for it to be

The original idea behind the role being added to the game was purely for it to not be used in a 2 striker formation. That's why some of the behaviours it has, tend to work drastically different in a 2 man set up and imo doesn't really function as intended. Instead for me, it just becomes a DLF with the odd different setting. But the way it works and functions is almost identical to a DLF.

I know that there is nothing stopping you from using it in a 2 striker set up. But that isn't why it was originally added. It's not a popular choice and I'm probably alone here but I think it should have some restrictions attached to it. Or at the very least, the role needs to be revisited and updated accordingly.

[herne79]

12 minutes ago, Cleon said:

The original idea behind the role being added to the game was purely for it to not be used in a 2 striker formation. That's why some of the behaviours it has, tend to work drastically different in a 2 man set up and imo doesn't really function as intended. Instead for me, it just becomes a DLF with the odd different setting. But the way it works and functions is almost identical to a DLF.

I know that there is nothing stopping you from using it in a 2 striker set up. But that isn't why it was originally added. It's not a popular choice and I'm probably alone here but I think it should have some restrictions attached to it. Or at the very least, the role needs to be revisited and updated accordingly.

Not alone .  It's pretty much my view as well which also extends to other roles and should (imo) have restrictions or at least be reviewed in some way.  Lines start to blur after a while - simply making a new label and giving it a different PI or two doesn't always give a role it's own unique flavour.

[westy8chimp]

I'm not going to disagree with the mechanics in game - you two know far more than me in that regard  

In real terms though the difference between DLF and F9 is tangible in their positioning and movement. DLF (very much a '10') should start deeper than an F9 ... and be a fairly static creative role (setup permitting), where the F9 is to start high then drop deep to drag CBs out (or CMs back), but then still make runs or dribbles towards goal to be more of a goalscorer.

RVP was a good F9 in striker partnerships with Eduardo and even Bendtner (which more closely resembling my setup).

Edited June 13, 2018 by westy8chimp

[westy8chimp]

Quick 'mid-mid-season' update

Cleon and Herne have mastered inception. Following the discussions about F9 behaviour in a front 2 I've been monitoring very closely what my F9 gets up to. The movement just isn't emphatic enough.

There are some examples of nice deep runs and link ups - but primarily the target men are bossing my two man attack. Probably to be expected as they have attack duty where the F9 is a support role. But it wasn't my intention for the season.

Here are a couple more examples of F9 making deep runs and linking up with the midfielders, where the TM or attacking wingers then find the net;

And here is how the goal distributions are looking to the end of November;

This certainly isn't a criticism of the F9, Bailey with his best goal to game ration season and the TMs are on fire.., all thanks to the sacrificial style of play the F9 is giving us.

Here's the form - again weak away form in the first half of the season

Back to the inception - I've just switched tactic to try and make this season a bit more exciting and get more out of the F9 (albeit at the cost of my TM).

My 3142 was first tried vs RBL, so thought it was a good time for the switch. We won 4-1 with Aguero getting on the score sheet. Here's his pass and shot map...nice to see no long shots, and plenty of forward passes from deep positions.

Hopefully Aguero can stay fit. He has so far picked up about a dozen minor injuries and his stats are falling off a cliff  City have done me there in the market.

 

[bdixon]

Do you find the F9 tends to shoot from distance quite a lot?

[westy8chimp]

1 hour ago, bdixon said:

Do you find the F9 tends to shoot from distance quite a lot?

Hi... Not in my save. I have TIs and players that arent inclined to take long shots. You can see from the above pass and shot map... The F9 has all his shots from inside the box.. And that match is very indicative of the season as a whole, not just a one off.

[westy8chimp]

January Update

After the tweak in November, just 3 weeks later the difference is notable playing the F9 as a lone striker;

However, the form hasn't gotten much better and the tactic is very wobbly at the back, as witnessed by a 6-1 defeat to Bayern!

First half of the season has been a lesson in how not to be a football manager. Too much chopping and changing tactic and personnel.

We've lost too many games in the league and conceded too many goals. In terms of goals scored, RBL are the bench mark (as they have top scored every season)  this is the closest I have been to them, so pretty good - and the only reason we are in touch of the top at all. We need a good run to get back in contention to retain our title.

Like last year we are still in the cups, though I don't expect we will be for long, given past experiences.

The return of the full back

First act of the new year is to revert to my first tactic suggestion when consider the F9. This is F9 101;

This meant recalling Rhuan, Wendell, Henrichs in the full back positions - and I signed Montoya as extra cover

We played a few games with the new tactic. 4123 to me is very much a safe, solid formation. My roles aren't overly defensive so if you were a betting man, 2-1 wins would be where the smart money is at.

And was the case for the first 2 games.

Another transfer window signing, and probably my most exciting signing to date was Leroy Sane. Needs no introduction but here is his profile in season. Not particularly great, looks like City haven't really improved him and he was on transfer request as well (hence being interested in coming to me) but the pace is still there to play either IF or Wing for me,

And with a goal on debut linking up with Aguero in classic F9 -> IF overlap it was an exciting glimpse of what may have been to come.

But ... even the best laid plans can fail. Aguero had injury problems all season and then this happened. Career probably over as his stats were already on the decline

There really was no ideal replacement in the market - and having just sold Muniain to Chelsea it was desperate times.

Ben Yedder will be key to the second half of the season, as I'm not sure this replacement still has the legs to make an impact. Great PPMs, technical and mental ability though. For £2m, low wage and just a 6 month contract it was worth a punt;

Here is the Jan form - early days but the consistency that comes with 4123 is already apparent. I'm now just 5 points from top (which is now RBL not Frankfurt)

Another snippet, this time of Ben Yedder, working well with the overlapping winger

Transfer window

Some big outgoings;

• Kompany and Jones were surplus with the move to a back 4. Kompany wage was too high, and having signed Jones on a free I couldn't turn down a big money offer for him
• Petagna and Giroud were excellent TM but as much as I love them, I'm not going back to using TM and had to cash in whilst also trimming the fat off the squad
• Same with Duncan, like Petagna, he is one of my go to FM players, but I'm not using a B2B or CAR and I have a lot of CMs better suited to the way I'm playing
• Muniain had to go for that offer.

Players coming in; apart from those already mentioned above were just wonderkids.

Transfer bug

I feel like a bit of a cheat here, certainly found a bug. I had loaned Vinicius Junior in the first transfer window. He is a great sub but I'm not going to give first team football to a player I don't own if I can avoid it. So Conte (R Madrid manager) was making several complaints to me, and as soon as January came along, he used the opportunity to recall Junior.

Only for me to put another loan bid in and sign him straight back!

Surely Conte should then be coded to reject any loan offer I make for Junior (and probably any of his other good youngsters for the foreseeable future)?

Target for rest of season

Simple - my first half of the season was hectic in terms of tactics for the F9 and now Aguero is out for the season. Forget the metrics, I just need to retain my title using the F9 in it's rightful 4123 and hope I get plenty of instances of the F9 using his onrushing wingers.  

 

Edited June 16, 2018 by westy8chimp

[westy8chimp]

End of season update

Lets get the obligatory cup and Euro disappointed out of the way quickly.

Terrible cup performance, exit in Europe a tad more unfortunate, losing in the 121st minute having missed 2 penalties in normal time and conceding one in extra time! Gutted

As for the league form. Yet again this goes to show how a simple orthodox formation playing to the stengths (in this case the F9) can work wonderfully. You can google 'F9 formation' and find a graphic such as the Roma one I posted in the OP. I've pretty much mimicked that (I should have started the season that way) and been unbeaten for the rest of the season, with very few draws.

To emphasise how simple it is I'm still playing at net gains in the transfer market, with no players you would class as elite (Aguero past it and injured) other than Bailey who I inherited.

Reminder of the tactic;

League results in the second half of the season using only this formation;

With 5 games left this was the state of the league;

Usually a 20+ game unbeaten run would be enough to win the league, but alas, RBL were again unstoppable.

The table finished as;

The RBL problem

They have finished as top scorers every season. And when on form they play as well as any human player can, here is there run in to the title. They score lots and concede few. Quite a problem! I was 2-0 up at their place and looking like going top but even then they have a steely reserve and pipped me back.

The man behind their success... Timo Werner. If this was a regen in the 15th season and was available for £10 on the transfer list, I really don't think I would sign him. How does Werner keep getting 30+ goals a season, 25 + in the league! He has what I refer to as the under-hood je-ne-sais-quoi

I could be facing him for the next decade as none of the big European teams seem interested in unsettling him.

U 19s at it again

My U19s are storming their division and won another double. Having looked at the squad they are still mostly 16/17 none are quite ready for the first team, but I'm investing time training and tutoring them and it looks like it will pay dividends soon.

F9 summary

Having gone with an orthodox formation that gives the F9 the right space to work in and the right players moving beyond him... I actually really liked using the role.

I had no issue with dropping deep enough. My concern was that, even with PPM 'likes to run with ball', if the F9 dropped deep to collect the ball he would always look for a through ball to the wide runners. This isn't a bad thing, but at times there was 40 yards of space to drive into and it would have been nice to see more variation.

I've taken some analysis from the RBL game. They play 442 - with my lack of AM and their lack of DM this is the kind of game that let the F9 flourish.

Here is a very typical freeze frame that happens 10+ times per game. Ben Yedder has come back to the half way line picking the ball off the DLP/RPM and then has 4/5 runners beyond him to pick out. He's taken the ball off of Havertz (#10 MEZ) and immediately he has MEZ, RPM, IF, W,DLP and both FB advancing beyond him so that he is the chief playmaker general. This time he played the short pass to Aliev (#24 RPM) who in turn fed through Bailey but offside. A lot of the time Ben Yedder would play the more direct ball out wide then make a late run into the box.

He was involved in both goals away to RBL. One a direct assist, the other more typical, just a pivotal role in the build up (or the assist-of-the-assist)

Pass map again very typical of pretty much any game

Same with shot map, a couple on the edge, but indicative that I didn't notice the F9 taking many long shots at all

Here's another reason why he doesn't get credited with as many assists as his play deserves. Lovely passing build up here culminates with Ben Yedder on the edge of the box with Bailey and Sane running wide beyond him. He feeds Sane and darts into the 6 yard box where he taps it to Bailey who scores. No assist because the defender makes the tiniest tackle on Bailey. This happens a lot because Sane and Bailey like to knock the ball past opponent, and in doing so the defenders quite often get a little touch on the ball which isn't enough to stop them scoring, but is enough to nullify any assist being given  

Here's how the squad goals and assists looked;

Ben Yedder and Aguero together add up to more than the required 15 goals and 15 assists. But they don't top the charts by any means. Bailey had his best season yet, and Sane would have had similar totals had he played a full season. This shows the real strength of the F9 - allowing those wide men to become a potent threat.

Would I use the F9 again

Certainly - as you can see we were unbeaten and only a few draws using the F9 in his best formation.

Having said that, I'm not going to use it next season. My concern using that role is that you have to clear the AMC slot to give him freedom to drop deep. Lends itself to the 4123. I'm not saying you can't win leagues with a 4123 but personally now I want to challenge the elite in the champions league, and stop having these nail biting finishes with RBL domestically - I'm going to need to score more heavily. 4231 with the right setup and personnel is the kind of formation that stops those niggly away draws and can really be the best formation to challenge on all fronts.

So what next...

Nothing overly exciting. I've only won 1 trophy in 4 seasons so it's time to play a couple of seasons my way with the aforementioned 4-2-3-1. I'm going to try and find a step up in personnel too time to spend some of the money I've been hoarding

There wont be much challenge to it and I won't be using any interesting roles so won't do a full thread on it. However, I can already see a thread or two about 4231 struggles so i'll do a mini thread on it. Probably as a post season update or after 2 seasons.

 

 

[zlatanera]

Really appreciate all the analysis of the F9 - I never commit the time other than when I did the Poacher challenge and reconstructed all my goalscoring moves. Did you try having the trait "Runs With Ball Often" on your F9? May make him more likely to drive at the defence.

Timo Werner is unplayable sometimes  on FM - I think its the pace, off the ball and "rounds keeper" trait that do it, playing a high line against him is suicidal. Managing Barcelona with Samuel Umtiti (no slouch) often being the last man and he burned me time and time again. The only way I've stopped him scoring in my encounters (as Lyon, Manchester United, Barcelona and Hamburg) is playing on the counter with "much deeper" ticked and hoping we don't get counter-countered. Never seen RBL win the league though, just shows you how different individual saves can be.

[westy8chimp]

1 hour ago, zlatanera said:

Did you try having the trait "Runs With Ball Often" on your F9? May make him more likely to drive at the defence.

Yep. Thats a ppm i mentioned in the OP under ppms and attributes. Both Ben Yedder and Aguero have it as shown in their profiles. 

If i had to argue the other sign of the coin, id say my formation and roles (alongside the patient build up) created plenty of easy passing options for the F9. I was on standard mentality with work ball into the box and thats what Ben Yedder did. 

However, the role should be built to make the dribbles and his PPM should have encouraged more dribbles. 

[zlatanera]

31 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

Yep. Thats a ppm i mentioned in the OP under ppms and attributes. Both Ben Yedder and Aguero have it as shown in their profiles. 

If i had to argue the other sign of the coin, id say my formation and roles (alongside the patient build up) created plenty of easy passing options for the F9. I was on standard mentality with work ball into the box and thats what Ben Yedder did. 

However, the role should be built to make the dribbles and his PPM should have encouraged more dribbles. 

My bad, yeah I guess he operates on the same thinking as every youth coach I've ever played under said - "the ball moves faster without you" or something like that.

I agree with you on that last point - particularly as it only really entered popular parlance due to Lionel Messi, one of the most gifted dribblers the world has every seen.

[yonko]

1 hour ago, westy8chimp said:

Yep. Thats a ppm i mentioned in the OP under ppms and attributes. Both Ben Yedder and Aguero have it as shown in their profiles. 

If i had to argue the other sign of the coin, id say my formation and roles (alongside the patient build up) created plenty of easy passing options for the F9. I was on standard mentality with work ball into the box and thats what Ben Yedder did. 

However, the role should be built to make the dribbles and his PPM should have encouraged more dribbles. 

If I'm not mistaken, the role used to have "dribble more" ticked by default. Now it doesn't anymore. Did you try ticking it?

[NabsKebabs]

1 hour ago, yonko said:

If I'm not mistaken, the role used to have "dribble more" ticked by default. Now it doesn't anymore. Did you try ticking it?

It did in FM17. Not on this this iteration

[westy8chimp]

5 hours ago, yonko said:

If I'm not mistaken, the role used to have "dribble more" ticked by default. Now it doesn't anymore. Did you try ticking it?

I didnt use any PIs at all. I assumed with a role like F9 it should beunder the hood like other specialist roles 

[herne79]

51 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

I didnt use any PIs at all. I assumed with a role like F9 it should beunder the hood like other specialist roles 

The F9 doesn't have "dribble more" built in under the hood as far as I'm aware.

[yonko]

8 hours ago, westy8chimp said:

I didnt use any PIs at all. I assumed with a role like F9 it should beunder the hood like other specialist roles 

You never checked the default instructions for the role? "Dribble more" is selectable, which means it's not hardcoded into the role. It's optional.

[westy8chimp]

5 minutes ago, yonko said:

You never checked the default instructions for the role? "Dribble more" is selectable, which means it's not hardcoded into the role. It's optional.

Harcoded PI is different to under the hood behaviour I. E. A segundo volante will get forward as much as a bbm... But has no hard coded PI. Its a very different role to dm on support. 

I thought it was so inherent to the role that the lack of dribbling PI was proof that it was already handled as part of the role mechanics

 

[yonko]

7 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

Harcoded PI is different to under the hood behaviour I. E. A segundo volante will get forward as much as a bbm... But has no hard coded PI. Its a very different role to dm on support. 

I thought it was so inherent to the role that the lack of dribbling PI was proof that it was already handled as part of the role mechanics

 

If the option is selectable (dribble more) then why would it be under the hood behavior? This is a sign that it's not. Under the hood behavior is dropping deep for the role, for example.

[westy8chimp]

1 hour ago, yonko said:

If the option is selectable (dribble more) then why would it be under the hood behavior? This is a sign that it's not. Under the hood behavior is dropping deep for the role, for example.

hmmm either you aren't understanding me or ... you are wrong  

Not all under-the-hood role behaviour is hidden instructions that we can't select.

I'll illustrate my previous example the Segundo volante. This is a role with under the hood mechanics that make it a DM when not in possession but a BBM/AM when in possession. So the player 'gets further forward'. It's in the description;

But notice there is a selectable PI for 'get further forward' but it isn't touched

Now do you understand how I might think the F9 might have under the hood mechanics to make it dribble more? Especially as just like the SV it is written in the description of the role;

If that doesn't make sense, we just have to move on because it doesn't matter  

[yonko]

The SV also has Attack duty too. Is the option selected by default with that duty?

F9 had dribble more selected by default in past editions (as pointed out already). This year it was changed. Did you notice that?

I never assume anything about any role. I read the description and look at which instructions are default and which are selectable. Then I look at how it plays on the pitch.

I knew that the F9 had dribbling in the past and now it doesn't. It's not a new role and it has been in the game for awhile now. The SV role is new and I can understand if someone is not familiar with it.

Also, there is a difference between movement/behavior off the ball and on the ball (dribbling). There are a lot of role with specific movement/behavior off the ball - F9, SV, BBM, CAR, MEZ, Playmakers, etc. But dribbling is either in the role or it isn't. It's not under the hood thing like movement for example.

[westy8chimp]

You are missing the point, a few semantics and more than a few brain cells here. It's not a savory note with which to end the thread. 

I've given observation... I accept it isnt coded into the role... Ive given reasonable explanation as to how i thought it could be... Based on other roles! Its in the description of the role. Other roles have built in behaviour for which there are selectable PI... Its all logical. Not sure a) how you cant understand it b) why you are getting so passionate about it c) why you are arguing about whether my thought process is acceptable or not when ive actually given pictorial evidence with the logic behind my reason. 

It's not like im disagreeing on the behaviour of the role? 

By getting rude and uppety about it all you've done is become a user whose comments i just have to skip over.

[yonko]

Passionate? Rude? Uppety? LOL....more false assumptions, I'm afraid.

I'm just trying to understand your illogical assumption why would the role have under the hood dribbling behavior different than what is default or selectable in terms of instructions.

The analogy/comparison you gave (with SV role) is flawed and I explained why. 

Answer this: is there any role that has under the hood dribbling behavior in terms on or off? (do not confuse it with cutting inside or dribbling up the wing)

You seem to confuse on the field role behavior (hardcoded for each role) with default instructions. Most roles have specific hardcoded behavior (not related to dribbling) beyond their default visible instructions. The F9 role such behavior is dropping deep, for example. The SV role is the dynamism and transitional behavior between defending and attacking. The SV on support has option to add "get further forward" to make it even more dynamic in attack. 

Ask yourself why does the F9 have "dribble more" selectable? 

[westy8chimp]

2 hours ago, yonko said:

Ask yourself why does the F9 have "dribble more" selectable? 

Ask yourself why does the sv have get further forward selectable. 

@herne79 this moron is relentless can you remove the last few posts including my responses... He's flogging a dead horse not sure how to end this pointless diatribe!?

Back to your post confirming that dribbling isnt fixed to the role (by any means) 

Sorry! Ta in advance

[herne79]

There's no reason why a role can't have dribbling built in under the hood as well as having an optional PI to dribble more.  It would just make the PI add even more dribbling to the role.  Kind of like having a role with the PI and then a player with the PPM - he'll dribble more than a player who doesn't have the Trait.

Same kind of thing with the SV.  The support duty has under the hood stuff going on to help it get forward - having the optional PI will help it get forward more often.  Just look at the mentality bar.

Now ok as it turns out the F9 (as far as I'm aware) doesn't have that behaviour but there's nothing illogical about wondering if it does or not, it's a perfectly reasonable question.  Same with the SV.

So no more bickering, lets move on please.

[yonko]

On 18/06/2018 at 23:53, westy8chimp said:

Ask yourself why does the sv have get further forward selectable. 

@herne79 this moron is relentless can you remove the last few posts including my responses... He's flogging a dead horse not sure how to end this pointless diatribe!?

Back to your post confirming that dribbling isnt fixed to the role (by any means) 

Sorry! Ta in advance

Moron? Talk about passionate and rude.....

@herne79 there has never been a role with under the hood dribbling on/off and dribble more selectable. It's logical to assume that if the option is selectable, then the instruction is not included in the role, especially since it was before (FM17 and earlier).

SV has the option to select get further forward because it adds to the dynamic behavior of the role. In a nutshell, the role is a DM that moves into CM/AM strata by definition, as far as I understand it. Same way the F9 drops deep into AM positions or even CM positions. There is a difference IMO.

But whatever, it's pointless to discuss further apparently.....I thought that was the purpose of the forum. I guess some children can't discuss though and have to call others names like in kindergarten. 

[herne79]

5 hours ago, yonko said:

@herne79 there has never been a role with under the hood dribbling on/off and dribble more selectable. It's logical to assume that if the option is selectable, then the instruction is not included in the role, especially since it was before (FM17 and earlier).

I don't disagree you could assume that.  But I also see the flip side and can see the thinking behind wondering if dribbling has been built in under the hood, especially when dribbling was previously hard selected in the PI screen.  So when you originally said:

On ‎18‎/‎06‎/‎2018 at 16:55, yonko said:

"Dribble more" is selectable, which means it's not hardcoded into the role. It's optional.

It doesn't necessarily mean that as the Segundo Volante (support) example later on demonstrates.

5 hours ago, yonko said:

SV has the option to select get further forward because it adds to the dynamic behavior of the role. In a nutshell, the role is a DM that moves into CM/AM strata by definition, as far as I understand it. Same way the F9 drops deep into AM positions or even CM positions. There is a difference IMO.

Agreed, there is a difference.  However by the same token we could then wonder why the F9 doesn't have a "drop deep" selectable PI to add to the dynamic flavour of that role as well.  As you say, it's similar behaviour just from the other end of the pitch.

Overall I think it's nothing more than some inconsistencies with the way in which PIs are selectable (or not).  It's two sides of the same coin and it's perfectly reasonable and logical to come at it from both sides .

And if that isn't sitting on the fence I don't know what is .

[westy8chimp]

Fence or no fence... Logical or illogical... My point was it was irrelevant and i didnt want the topic becoming a thread about my sanity. 

The description of the role is that it can dribble through the middle. It used to be a selected PI... Noe it wasnt i assumed (rightly or wrongly) it had just been made part of the role. This is why i didnt add it as a PI... Also on top of that the player i used has ppm to run with ball through centre... The PPM takes precedent over any PI

For those interested in F9... As per my summary... I found the player, in my setup, chose too often to ply the killer ball rather than exploit open spaces with a dribble. 

Herne helpfully tells us dribbling isnt hard coded. So you may wish to use the PI and see how you get on

[yonko]

5 hours ago, herne79 said:

I don't disagree you could assume that.  But I also see the flip side and can see the thinking behind wondering if dribbling has been built in under the hood, especially when dribbling was previously hard selected in the PI screen.  So when you originally said:

It doesn't necessarily mean that as the Segundo Volante (support) example later on demonstrates.

Agreed, there is a difference.  However by the same token we could then wonder why the F9 doesn't have a "drop deep" selectable PI to add to the dynamic flavour of that role as well.  As you say, it's similar behaviour just from the other end of the pitch.

Overall I think it's nothing more than some inconsistencies with the way in which PIs are selectable (or not).  It's two sides of the same coin and it's perfectly reasonable and logical to come at it from both sides .

And if that isn't sitting on the fence I don't know what is .

Cause there is no "drop deeper" instruction for any player. It's a specific behavior similar to Half-Back and SV roles, for example (all roles whose behavior is to move between the lines or shift lines). There are no instructions for every aspect of the role. That's why there is under the hood coding. Dribbling has never been part of it though.

Bottom line:

The F9 role has selectable option "dribble more". If one wants the player in the role to dribble more, the logical thing is to click the option. Especially since it was part of the role before. Or if you see that it doesn't dribble enough for one's liking.

[westy8chimp]

On ‎18‎/‎06‎/‎2018 at 17:12, yonko said:

If the option is selectable (dribble more) then why would it be under the hood behavior?

 

On ‎18‎/‎06‎/‎2018 at 16:55, yonko said:

"Dribble more" is selectable, which means it's not hardcoded into the role. It's optional.

These ridiculous, idiotic statements were your start point though.

We have proved there are roles that have BOTH selectable PIs that are also hard coded under the hood.

11 minutes ago, yonko said:

The F9 role has selectable option "dribble more". If one wants the player in the role to dribble more, the logical thing is to click the option. Especially since it was part of the role before. Or if you see that it doesn't dribble enough for one's liking.

PPM > PI so if you have a player with 'runs with ball' PPM it would be logical not to select the PI

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If you are gonna keep repeating the same thing so will I