Jump to content
Sports Interactive Community
Sign in to follow this  
westy8chimp

Leverkusen Season 4 - The False 9

Recommended Posts

Another great write up.  Nice job westy :).

I've had problems before with "strikers" dropping deep enough for my liking, so I'm interested to see how this pans out for you. 

Something I've never tried before (and keep meaning to) is the F9/F10 combo.  I've toyed with similar roles such as CF(s) / AM(a) which have worked very nicely.  Is that something you've considered?

btw I quite like the look of Muniain as an F9.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Another great write up.  Nice job westy :).

I've had problems before with "strikers" dropping deep enough for my liking, so I'm interested to see how this pans out for you. 

Something I've never tried before (and keep meaning to) is the F9/F10 combo.  I've toyed with similar roles such as CF(s) / AM(a) which have worked very nicely.  Is that something you've considered?

btw I quite like the look of Muniain as an F9.

Thanks.

You had problems with them dropping too deep or not enough? I guess i'll monitor that, for me the F9 can't drop deep enough, if he ends up in my own half i'll be happy. What will leave me sour faced is if he loiters around the Trequarista patch nearer the penalty area D ... ideally you want him coming nearer to the half way line than the P area to receive short passes from RPM. 'Comes deeper' will be a mandatory PPM (so yes Muniain looks really good and first thing tonight i'll be setting him and Ben Yedder to train on that trait). Carlos Vela would be my 3rd choice if I was going with lone striker... but I suspect i'll sell him to find a backup TM to cover Petagna if I go with the 2 upfront.

RE CFs/AM... I probably won't go with them... if I don't use the F9 in it's orthodox lone striker role, i'll really want to treat him as a deep poacher so the TM will be great for that. If the TM attracts too many long balls then i'll consider CF a or AF a...the worry then is that they are primary goal scorers so the F9 might go missing. DLF similarly not considered as I don't want both strikers dropping deep.

I should really go with the 4123 and commit 100% to getting the most out of the F9 -> so far I've been good at committing, but now it's season 4 I have a bond with these players :D I'll happily shift Muniain from AMC to F9 or replace him with Aguero, then the rest of the lineup is the same as last season. If I go to 4123 I'm introducing two full backs with the loss of a midfielder and CB. I didn't like Wendell or Henrichs and have no backup so the transfer window becomes all about those positions and my £40m would barely get me passable backups let alone replacements for Wendell and Henrichs.

Tough decisions ahead.

Edited by westy8chimp

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Enjoying reading your updates. 

I think first touch, balance and decisions are more important for an F9 then dribbling and finishing (although I do look for both of those in an F9)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looking forward to see some in game analysis if you ever plan to do it. I've used a F9 in my Leeds save with a SS behind him (so I guess it's some kind of F9 & F10 combo) and it's worked pretty nice to unlock some defences in the Championship.

Edited by Armistice

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

these threads have been my favourite this year. especially this one. i find the false 9 role quite frustrating, i have given up and begun to use an  Attacking midfielder who arrives late into the box and is heavily involved in build up play, i know this is the inverse of a false 9 but it just works so much better in game. hence why i am so interested in this thread. great stuff.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, herne79 said:

Something I've never tried before (and keep meaning to) is the F9/F10 combo.  I've toyed with similar roles such as CF(s) / AM(a) which have worked very nicely.  Is that something you've considered?

would this be like Peps Last year at Barca, Cesc and Messi?

Image result for barcelona 3-7-0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, argenmik said:

would this be like Peps Last year at Barca, Cesc and Messi?

TBH I've never really paid too much attention to how Barcelona or Guardiola set up their tactics.  However I don't think I'd call Cesc a F9, F10 or Shadow Striker.  As westy says above:

3 hours ago, westy8chimp said:

He is and was an orthodox midfielder, playmaker, attacking midfielder.

People who know Barca a lot better than me may have a different view of course and happy to be corrected, but personally I feel there can sometimes be too many "hipster" labels bandied about when actually all someone is is an attacking midfielder with great passing and movement ability (or whatever).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, NabsKebabs said:

Enjoying reading your updates. 

I think first touch, balance and decisions are more important for an F9 then dribbling and finishing (although I do look for both of those in an F9)

Touch - yes, it is important, I've put it in the secondary bracket but equally could be in the top. My idea is to keep these threads relatively simple, it's hopefully for basic players to understand a process and that there is a connect between players (PPM & attribute) and the formation. And within the formation that every role, duty, mentality, shape, instruction is important to the whole (and not standalone decisions). To keep it simple I'm trying to select just a few attributes

Decisions - at first thought its surely an important attribute for everyone, you don't want people making wrong decisions right? But if you go deeper ... what does a good decision imply? To me it's that the player will take time to think (you can't make a good decision as quickly as you can act on instinct). It suggests there are a large number of options that require thought (if you can only pass to one player, there is no decision to make). Then once he makes a good decision he still needs the skill to follow through with it. Therefore, I kind of acknowledge that higher is better in most cases, but I never focus on it.

another thought on decision... let's say my F9 has come deep and received the ball via RPM. He isn't being pressed (because we are living in Utopia) - so he looks up and sees the Winger advancing out wide, the IF making a darting run in the channel, a Mezalla pushing past him from midfield and the RPM open for a safe backwards pass. What is the right decision? Football is incredibly objective. In line with my TI the right decision is work ball into box, so may go for the nearest safe option in an advanced position of his own... so the Mez who has just run past him? do I want my F9 playing that ball regularly? The F9 is also hard coded for risky passes, so would a low decision making attribute temper that? ... it's too much to think about to actively base my transfers on a player with high decision making.

Balance -  in my opinion, works with strength (almost the attacking equivalent for players with a smaller physique). If you want say Hazard dribbling a lot, he needs agility to make the sharp turns, and high balance to be able to stay on his feet when oafish defenders try and shoulder him off the ball or tackle him down. The F9 does dribble, but should be primarily dribbling into open areas, not through crowded areas where he will be challenged often. Plus my own preferences is players who evade challenges rather than ride them (Wingers who 'knock ball past opponent' etc).

-----------------

48 minutes ago, Armistice said:

Looking forward to see some in game analysis if you ever plan to do it. I've used a F9 in my Leeds save with a SS behind him (so I guess it's some kind of F9 & F10 combo) and it's worked pretty nice to unlock some defences in the Championship.

As this is role based it makes the analysis easier for me, as I can pinpoint heat maps, avg position etc to one player. So yes I do intend on doing some and hopefully I can do it sensibly :D when trying to analyse at a team level I just find all the various tools become blobs of colour and lines and offer me very little help.

----------------

4 minutes ago, herne79 said:

I feel there can sometimes be too many "hipster" labels bandied about when actually all someone is is an attacking midfielder with great passing and movement ability (or whatever).

:D Precisely. And now we have moved on from magical AMs it's all about pressing. For me 'Gegenpressing' has been doing the rounds far too much over the last 5 years. Anyone who closes the ball down even half-heartedly anywhere on the pitch is now 'Gegenpressing' and the manager is a modern genius

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just want to say I've enjoyed these threads - as someone who panics at the first sight of trouble with his tactics a lot of the time (was moving away from that with my past couple of saves) I like to see someone making a plan and sticking to it.

If you got with the 3-1-4-2 I'd be really interested to see how the strike partners do work together - just from first glance I'd imagine the F9 is indeed going to become a sort of Poacher as you have two Wingers and a TM for them to aim for, but obviously I don't know enough to say for sure. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Personally, I think the F9 role needs a total rework. The movement of the F9 in FM is just so inconsistent and barely drops deep.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, herne79 said:

That one.

[RE movement not deep enough]

Just now, Cam8 said:

Personally, I think the F9 role needs a total rework. The movement of the F9 in FM is just so inconsistent and barely drops deep.

Thanks you two... now I'm really excited to get home and play my save :( 

I hope I don't see the same behaviour - I'm sure your observations are correct but maybe different setup = different result?

If it is a fail all I can do is explain what I saw, what I attempted etc and will put it all in the end of season summary. If it's really bad I can submit a bug report - as I will be, in theory, creating good condition for an F9 and using a relevant player.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

Thanks you two... now I'm really excited to get home and play my save :( 

Remember I stressed "for my liking".  The F9 can indeed drop off, especially using a player with a suitable PPM and the tactical set up you employ, I just wanted something different to what the F9 offered.  I tried the F9 as a starting point, found it didn't achieve the specific movement that I wanted at the time, so changed it.

I'm interested to see how it works out for you in your system (which is completely different to the system I was using).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's an interesting project you have going on. I will be following it with interest. The False 9 doesn't play the way I like it. It needs a little tweak in the ME. Needs to drop deeper, no moves into channels and less shooting. Personally I don't want my F9 dribbling too much (unless it's Messi) and would prefer the role to drop deep, play one-twos or play through balls to the players running beyond him and then surge into the penalty area as the play develops into the final third.

For PPMs I like: comes deep, plays one-twos, tries killer balls often, refrains from long shots, places shots.

The role needs a runner from wide and one from deeper position - so one midfielder on Attack duty and one wide role with attack duty, either side of the F9. In your case I would change the Mez to Attack. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The F9 doesn't drop quite deep enough for my liking either. It drifts wide a lot but not very deep. So having the player with the PPM "drops deep to get ball" can be very important to get the right movement. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, yonko said:

It's an interesting project you have going on. I will be following it with interest. The False 9 doesn't play the way I like it. It needs a little tweak in the ME. Needs to drop deeper, no moves into channels and less shooting. Personally I don't want my F9 dribbling too much (unless it's Messi) and would prefer the role to drop deep, play one-twos or play through balls to the players running beyond him and then surge into the penalty area as the play develops into the final third.

For PPMs I like: comes deep, plays one-twos, tries killer balls often, refrains from long shots, places shots.

The role needs a runner from wide and one from deeper position - so one midfielder on Attack duty and one wide role with attack duty, either side of the F9. In your case I would change the Mez to Attack

Agree RE moves into channel PI, as mentioned in the OP. And it's that PI which possibly causes the behaviour you have been disgruntled with Nabs.

I haven't seen it yet but I'm only a few games in. Mostly the touches, heat map indicate heavily in favour of central areas. Maybe my winger on attack on the right side is prohibiting too much side ways movement from my F9.

RE PPMs yes agree and noted a couple of the same in the OP. Aguero has 'comes deep' and 'places shots'. He's too long in the tooth to waste time learning traits now (old dogs and all that). But would have loved him to come with 1-2s and less long shots.

Mez attack - definitely a 50/50 decision in the 4123 I detailed. Less of an option in my 3142 but it's in the back of my mind as a potential change if required. Havertz has had to play that role in my first few games due to injuries and has scored 3 setup 1 already on support duty. With TM and F9 already as central options and now I have 2 attacking wide men... his support duty is working well.

3 hours ago, NabsKebabs said:

The F9 doesn't drop quite deep enough for my liking either. It drifts wide a lot but not very deep. So having the player with the PPM "drops deep to get ball" can be very important to get the right movement. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cracking thread this and the others you've done recently :cool:

 

RE The F9 - I feel in a 2 striker system his moving into channels is negligible. You only really notice its an issue if he's the lone striker imo as the role as designed with the intention of it being mainly for 1 striker formations. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great analysis and even better MS Paint skillz ;).

3 minutes ago, Cleon said:

You only really notice its an issue if he's the lone striker imo as the role as designed with the intention of it being mainly for 1 striker formations. 

Would you consider the F9 is another one of those roles which may benefit from only being allowed in the TC under certain conditions?  So only being able to use the F9 when a lone striker?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

False 9 principle is just that it's a number 9 that makes deceptive deep runs/unorthodox start position. Let's assume we have an orthodox 9 -> there's no reason they wouldn't play in a two upfront, so whilst it's mostly considered a lone striker role, I don't think there's particular reason for it to be.

  • Perception - if you had a F9 with a TM in real life many pundits would just refer to them as a deep lying striker or a number 10s. Even if the player is associated as a classic 9 and starts showing exactly the type of movement and traits of a False 9. They just want be called false 9 for no logical reason. And unfortunately it's post game anaylsis by pundits that drive a lot of football theory, and we only get the true facts from managers and players years after the event when they came out with a book or become pundits themselves.
  • The nature of the role lends itself better to lone striker formation- when your F9 drops deep you need attacking runs from midfielders. In a classic F9 setup can you afford attacking midfielders from multiple angles AND another striker? Most teams couldn't afford that luxury. I'm not playing classic F9 tactical setup... but I am still assuming typical F9 behaviours in my tactical plan. 

The lack of real life F9 in 2 striker formation,  both in terms of use and discussion, probably leads it to be considered a lone striker role.

The only TC (in it's current format) fixed behaviour/criteria should be forcing the F9 to drop deep. I don't really understand why channels and risky passes are hard coded.

Could open up another can of worms and go back to my statement in the 'roles for FM19 thread' that no behaviour should be hard coded and I should have a PI I can assign to a generic CF role 'drop deeper' :D 

I'd like the ME to become more dynamic, I suspect in some ways with attributes (decisions, off the ball, vision etc) it is, but in terms of role relationships e.g. an IF (a) should make much more aggressive, early runs when there is a lone F9 in front, than if say a CF (s). I'm not convinced it has that kind of intelligence other than to say the players movement and decision should dictate that behaviour.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, herne79 said:

Great analysis and even better MS Paint skillz ;).

Would you consider the F9 is another one of those roles which may benefit from only being allowed in the TC under certain conditions?  So only being able to use the F9 when a lone striker?

Quote

False 9 principle is just that it's a number 9 that makes deceptive deep runs/unorthodox start position. Let's assume we have an orthodox 9 -> there's no reason they wouldn't play in a two upfront, so whilst it's mostly considered a lone striker role, I don't think there's particular reason for it to be

The original idea behind the role being added to the game was purely for it to not be used in a 2 striker formation. That's why some of the behaviours it has, tend to work drastically different in a 2 man set up and imo doesn't really function as intended. Instead for me, it just becomes a DLF with the odd different setting. But the way it works and functions is almost identical to a DLF.

I know that there is nothing stopping you from using it in a 2 striker set up. But that isn't why it was originally added. It's not a popular choice and I'm probably alone here but I think it should have some restrictions attached to it. Or at the very least, the role needs to be revisited and updated accordingly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Cleon said:

The original idea behind the role being added to the game was purely for it to not be used in a 2 striker formation. That's why some of the behaviours it has, tend to work drastically different in a 2 man set up and imo doesn't really function as intended. Instead for me, it just becomes a DLF with the odd different setting. But the way it works and functions is almost identical to a DLF.

I know that there is nothing stopping you from using it in a 2 striker set up. But that isn't why it was originally added. It's not a popular choice and I'm probably alone here but I think it should have some restrictions attached to it. Or at the very least, the role needs to be revisited and updated accordingly.

Not alone ;).  It's pretty much my view as well which also extends to other roles and should (imo) have restrictions or at least be reviewed in some way.  Lines start to blur after a while - simply making a new label and giving it a different PI or two doesn't always give a role it's own unique flavour.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not going to disagree with the mechanics in game - you two know far more than me in that regard :D 

In real terms though the difference between DLF and F9 is tangible in their positioning and movement. DLF (very much a '10') should start deeper than an F9 ... and be a fairly static creative role (setup permitting), where the F9 is to start high then drop deep to drag CBs out (or CMs back), but then still make runs or dribbles towards goal to be more of a goalscorer.

RVP was a good F9 in striker partnerships with Eduardo and even Bendtner (which more closely resembling my setup).

Edited by westy8chimp

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Quick 'mid-mid-season' update

Cleon and Herne have mastered inception. Following the discussions about F9 behaviour in a front 2 I've been monitoring very closely what my F9 gets up to. The movement just isn't emphatic enough.

There are some examples of nice deep runs and link ups - but primarily the target men are bossing my two man attack. Probably to be expected as they have attack duty where the F9 is a support role. But it wasn't my intention for the season.

Here are a couple more examples of F9 making deep runs and linking up with the midfielders, where the TM or attacking wingers then find the net;

421866612_example1.thumb.PNG.6cd5721cbded7e5486865a733b15bcaf.PNG

1248764822_example2.thumb.PNG.af01d05c5c1db6021c585a1765d800d9.PNG

And here is how the goal distributions are looking to the end of November;

543922840_squadgoals.thumb.PNG.9c9107ad2142c74efaa3cfe1802f94f4.PNG

This certainly isn't a criticism of the F9, Bailey with his best goal to game ration season and the TMs are on fire.., all thanks to the sacrificial style of play the F9 is giving us.

Here's the form - again weak away form in the first half of the season

form.thumb.PNG.5fa420660564a8db242ede6e506e18dd.PNG

Back to the inception - I've just switched tactic to try and make this season a bit more exciting and get more out of the F9 (albeit at the cost of my TM).

554622998_newtactic.thumb.PNG.3fd5e2d26511484089f88ca23fa7974c.PNG

My 3142 was first tried vs RBL, so thought it was a good time for the switch. We won 4-1 with Aguero getting on the score sheet. Here's his pass and shot map...nice to see no long shots, and plenty of forward passes from deep positions.

983792742_passesandshots.thumb.PNG.9c5dfb5235cab64e1fa938e962ae96f7.PNG

Hopefully Aguero can stay fit. He has so far picked up about a dozen minor injuries and his stats are falling off a cliff :D City have done me there in the market.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do you find the F9 tends to shoot from distance quite a lot?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, bdixon said:

Do you find the F9 tends to shoot from distance quite a lot?

Hi... Not in my save. I have TIs and players that arent inclined to take long shots. You can see from the above pass and shot map... The F9 has all his shots from inside the box.. And that match is very indicative of the season as a whole, not just a one off.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

January Update

After the tweak in November, just 3 weeks later the difference is notable playing the F9 as a lone striker;

1425270236_squadgoals.thumb.PNG.9741f8fbf6882e9fe28be90c8e4a7ae6.PNG

However, the form hasn't gotten much better and the tactic is very wobbly at the back, as witnessed by a 6-1 defeat to Bayern!

First half of the season has been a lesson in how not to be a football manager. Too much chopping and changing tactic and personnel.

We've lost too many games in the league and conceded too many goals. In terms of goals scored, RBL are the bench mark (as they have top scored every season)  this is the closest I have been to them, so pretty good - and the only reason we are in touch of the top at all. We need a good run to get back in contention to retain our title.

897844720_lgform.thumb.PNG.23f54159cae1973d0fa4da211c7a68e7.PNG

2039807770_lgtable.thumb.PNG.3bdd280e5b14216d0f5574c335b3dbb6.PNG

Like last year we are still in the cups, though I don't expect we will be for long, given past experiences.

278119896_champslg.thumb.PNG.e7aa564a1c731f03ba86ebf48c5cc1d6.PNG

cup.thumb.PNG.ada6241fc1e51d631a43178239ef8a4b.PNG

The return of the full back

First act of the new year is to revert to my first tactic suggestion when consider the F9. This is F9 101;

tactic.thumb.PNG.91d56b32eb0a150cf77ef468372abd9b.PNG

This meant recalling Rhuan, Wendell, Henrichs in the full back positions - and I signed Montoya as extra cover

montoya.thumb.PNG.40bf0c1ebf44a2e646d7802f7ba33591.PNG

We played a few games with the new tactic. 4123 to me is very much a safe, solid formation. My roles aren't overly defensive so if you were a betting man, 2-1 wins would be where the smart money is at.

And was the case for the first 2 games.

Another transfer window signing, and probably my most exciting signing to date was Leroy Sane. Needs no introduction but here is his profile in season. Not particularly great, looks like City haven't really improved him and he was on transfer request as well (hence being interested in coming to me) but the pace is still there to play either IF or Wing for me,

sane.thumb.PNG.96f701f33d5551a2ac5ae9a6f90fa530.PNG

And with a goal on debut linking up with Aguero in classic F9 -> IF overlap it was an exciting glimpse of what may have been to come.

432190713_aguerosane.thumb.PNG.5ed8b1ed05d1fea347f79a79e82f1145.PNG

But ... even the best laid plans can fail. Aguero had injury problems all season and then this happened. Career probably over as his stats were already on the decline

61768298_aguerodone.thumb.PNG.4ca4edee27585a1369cc912f5514cfd6.PNG

There really was no ideal replacement in the market - and having just sold Muniain to Chelsea it was desperate times.

Ben Yedder will be key to the second half of the season, as I'm not sure this replacement still has the legs to make an impact. Great PPMs, technical and mental ability though. For £2m, low wage and just a 6 month contract it was worth a punt;

jonas.thumb.PNG.8fc24e6ab1183f9517c8b7953491d336.PNG

Here is the Jan form - early days but the consistency that comes with 4123 is already apparent. I'm now just 5 points from top (which is now RBL not Frankfurt)

637648241_janfixtures.thumb.PNG.4583b1df0ed8cf019e9066b38cc6e08f.PNG

Another snippet, this time of Ben Yedder, working well with the overlapping winger

249309633_yeddertobailey.thumb.PNG.9f9a1a31874d383e517296893ef17388.PNG

Transfer window

Some big outgoings;

  • Kompany and Jones were surplus with the move to a back 4. Kompany wage was too high, and having signed Jones on a free I couldn't turn down a big money offer for him
  • Petagna and Giroud were excellent TM but as much as I love them, I'm not going back to using TM and had to cash in whilst also trimming the fat off the squad
  • Same with Duncan, like Petagna, he is one of my go to FM players, but I'm not using a B2B or CAR and I have a lot of CMs better suited to the way I'm playing
  • Muniain had to go for that offer.

Players coming in; apart from those already mentioned above were just wonderkids.

1138744854_transferwindow.thumb.PNG.987fc1e483a63030518394f290dc86bf.PNG

alexandre.thumb.PNG.388f329570856f3efa1064ad1e20f22f.PNG

aliev.thumb.PNG.78e87e78155f8693e9c4fc63c63673ca.PNG

rajic.thumb.PNG.6ae1492f0760af7a61a8252367a623ed.PNG

Transfer bug

I feel like a bit of a cheat here, certainly found a bug. I had loaned Vinicius Junior in the first transfer window. He is a great sub but I'm not going to give first team football to a player I don't own if I can avoid it. So Conte (R Madrid manager) was making several complaints to me, and as soon as January came along, he used the opportunity to recall Junior.

Only for me to put another loan bid in and sign him straight back!

Surely Conte should then be coded to reject any loan offer I make for Junior (and probably any of his other good youngsters for the foreseeable future)?

190850746_vinijunior.thumb.PNG.57ac8a117c1038ed55260b140081c168.PNG

Target for rest of season

Simple - my first half of the season was hectic in terms of tactics for the F9 and now Aguero is out for the season. Forget the metrics, I just need to retain my title using the F9 in it's rightful 4123 and hope I get plenty of instances of the F9 using his onrushing wingers.  

 

Edited by westy8chimp

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Really appreciate all the analysis of the F9 - I never commit the time other than when I did the Poacher challenge and reconstructed all my goalscoring moves. Did you try having the trait "Runs With Ball Often" on your F9? May make him more likely to drive at the defence.

Timo Werner is unplayable sometimes  on FM - I think its the pace, off the ball and "rounds keeper" trait that do it, playing a high line against him is suicidal. Managing Barcelona with Samuel Umtiti (no slouch) often being the last man and he burned me time and time again. The only way I've stopped him scoring in my encounters (as Lyon, Manchester United, Barcelona and Hamburg) is playing on the counter with "much deeper" ticked and hoping we don't get counter-countered. Never seen RBL win the league though, just shows you how different individual saves can be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, zlatanera said:

Did you try having the trait "Runs With Ball Often" on your F9? May make him more likely to drive at the defence.

Yep. Thats a ppm i mentioned in the OP under ppms and attributes. Both Ben Yedder and Aguero have it as shown in their profiles. 

If i had to argue the other sign of the coin, id say my formation and roles (alongside the patient build up) created plenty of easy passing options for the F9. I was on standard mentality with work ball into the box and thats what Ben Yedder did. 

However, the role should be built to make the dribbles and his PPM should have encouraged more dribbles. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

Yep. Thats a ppm i mentioned in the OP under ppms and attributes. Both Ben Yedder and Aguero have it as shown in their profiles. 

If i had to argue the other sign of the coin, id say my formation and roles (alongside the patient build up) created plenty of easy passing options for the F9. I was on standard mentality with work ball into the box and thats what Ben Yedder did. 

However, the role should be built to make the dribbles and his PPM should have encouraged more dribbles. 

My bad, yeah I guess he operates on the same thinking as every youth coach I've ever played under said - "the ball moves faster without you" or something like that.

I agree with you on that last point - particularly as it only really entered popular parlance due to Lionel Messi, one of the most gifted dribblers the world has every seen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, westy8chimp said:

Yep. Thats a ppm i mentioned in the OP under ppms and attributes. Both Ben Yedder and Aguero have it as shown in their profiles. 

If i had to argue the other sign of the coin, id say my formation and roles (alongside the patient build up) created plenty of easy passing options for the F9. I was on standard mentality with work ball into the box and thats what Ben Yedder did. 

However, the role should be built to make the dribbles and his PPM should have encouraged more dribbles. 

If I'm not mistaken, the role used to have "dribble more" ticked by default. Now it doesn't anymore. Did you try ticking it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, yonko said:

If I'm not mistaken, the role used to have "dribble more" ticked by default. Now it doesn't anymore. Did you try ticking it?

It did in FM17. Not on this this iteration

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, yonko said:

If I'm not mistaken, the role used to have "dribble more" ticked by default. Now it doesn't anymore. Did you try ticking it?

I didnt use any PIs at all. I assumed with a role like F9 it should beunder the hood like other specialist roles 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

I didnt use any PIs at all. I assumed with a role like F9 it should beunder the hood like other specialist roles 

The F9 doesn't have "dribble more" built in under the hood as far as I'm aware.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, westy8chimp said:

I didnt use any PIs at all. I assumed with a role like F9 it should beunder the hood like other specialist roles 

You never checked the default instructions for the role? "Dribble more" is selectable, which means it's not hardcoded into the role. It's optional.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, yonko said:

You never checked the default instructions for the role? "Dribble more" is selectable, which means it's not hardcoded into the role. It's optional.

Harcoded PI is different to under the hood behaviour I. E. A segundo volante will get forward as much as a bbm... But has no hard coded PI. Its a very different role to dm on support. 

I thought it was so inherent to the role that the lack of dribbling PI was proof that it was already handled as part of the role mechanics :)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

Harcoded PI is different to under the hood behaviour I. E. A segundo volante will get forward as much as a bbm... But has no hard coded PI. Its a very different role to dm on support. 

I thought it was so inherent to the role that the lack of dribbling PI was proof that it was already handled as part of the role mechanics :)

 

If the option is selectable (dribble more) then why would it be under the hood behavior? This is a sign that it's not. Under the hood behavior is dropping deep for the role, for example.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, yonko said:

If the option is selectable (dribble more) then why would it be under the hood behavior? This is a sign that it's not. Under the hood behavior is dropping deep for the role, for example.

hmmm either you aren't understanding me or ... you are wrong :D 

Not all under-the-hood role behaviour is hidden instructions that we can't select.

I'll illustrate my previous example the Segundo volante. This is a role with under the hood mechanics that make it a DM when not in possession but a BBM/AM when in possession. So the player 'gets further forward'. It's in the description;

1373094745_svdescr.thumb.PNG.819f1fb8c0b509e66ecb27030f080622.PNG

But notice there is a selectable PI for 'get further forward' but it isn't touched

470472105_svinstructions.thumb.PNG.4727e99e2160b5a19898d9f6ad4c8b7e.PNG

Now do you understand how I might think the F9 might have under the hood mechanics to make it dribble more? Especially as just like the SV it is written in the description of the role;

F9.thumb.PNG.196bea2dea9cce1d23dcb47413145c37.PNG

If that doesn't make sense, we just have to move on because it doesn't matter :D 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The SV also has Attack duty too. Is the option selected by default with that duty?

F9 had dribble more selected by default in past editions (as pointed out already). This year it was changed. Did you notice that?

I never assume anything about any role. I read the description and look at which instructions are default and which are selectable. Then I look at how it plays on the pitch.

I knew that the F9 had dribbling in the past and now it doesn't. It's not a new role and it has been in the game for awhile now. The SV role is new and I can understand if someone is not familiar with it.

Also, there is a difference between movement/behavior off the ball and on the ball (dribbling). There are a lot of role with specific movement/behavior off the ball - F9, SV, BBM, CAR, MEZ, Playmakers, etc. But dribbling is either in the role or it isn't. It's not under the hood thing like movement for example.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You are missing the point, a few semantics and more than a few brain cells here. It's not a savory note with which to end the thread. 

I've given observation... I accept it isnt coded into the role... Ive given reasonable explanation as to how i thought it could be... Based on other roles! Its in the description of the role. Other roles have built in behaviour for which there are selectable PI... Its all logical. Not sure a) how you cant understand it b) why you are getting so passionate about it c) why you are arguing about whether my thought process is acceptable or not when ive actually given pictorial evidence with the logic behind my reason. 

It's not like im disagreeing on the behaviour of the role? 

By getting rude and uppety about it all you've done is become a user whose comments i just have to skip over.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Passionate? Rude? Uppety? LOL....more false assumptions, I'm afraid.

I'm just trying to understand your illogical assumption why would the role have under the hood dribbling behavior different than what is default or selectable in terms of instructions.

The analogy/comparison you gave (with SV role) is flawed and I explained why. 

Answer this: is there any role that has under the hood dribbling behavior in terms on or off? (do not confuse it with cutting inside or dribbling up the wing)

You seem to confuse on the field role behavior (hardcoded for each role) with default instructions. Most roles have specific hardcoded behavior (not related to dribbling) beyond their default visible instructions. The F9 role such behavior is dropping deep, for example. The SV role is the dynamism and transitional behavior between defending and attacking. The SV on support has option to add "get further forward" to make it even more dynamic in attack. 

Ask yourself why does the F9 have "dribble more" selectable? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, yonko said:

Ask yourself why does the F9 have "dribble more" selectable

Ask yourself why does the sv have get further forward selectable. 

@herne79 this moron is relentless can you remove the last few posts including my responses... He's flogging a dead horse not sure how to end this pointless diatribe!?

Back to your post confirming that dribbling isnt fixed to the role (by any means) 

Sorry! Ta in advance

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's no reason why a role can't have dribbling built in under the hood as well as having an optional PI to dribble more.  It would just make the PI add even more dribbling to the role.  Kind of like having a role with the PI and then a player with the PPM - he'll dribble more than a player who doesn't have the Trait.

Same kind of thing with the SV.  The support duty has under the hood stuff going on to help it get forward - having the optional PI will help it get forward more often.  Just look at the mentality bar.

Now ok as it turns out the F9 (as far as I'm aware) doesn't have that behaviour but there's nothing illogical about wondering if it does or not, it's a perfectly reasonable question.  Same with the SV.

So no more bickering, lets move on please.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 18/06/2018 at 23:53, westy8chimp said:

Ask yourself why does the sv have get further forward selectable. 

@herne79 this moron is relentless can you remove the last few posts including my responses... He's flogging a dead horse not sure how to end this pointless diatribe!?

Back to your post confirming that dribbling isnt fixed to the role (by any means) 

Sorry! Ta in advance

Moron? Talk about passionate and rude.....:rolleyes:

@herne79 there has never been a role with under the hood dribbling on/off and dribble more selectable. It's logical to assume that if the option is selectable, then the instruction is not included in the role, especially since it was before (FM17 and earlier).

SV has the option to select get further forward because it adds to the dynamic behavior of the role. In a nutshell, the role is a DM that moves into CM/AM strata by definition, as far as I understand it. Same way the F9 drops deep into AM positions or even CM positions. There is a difference IMO.

But whatever, it's pointless to discuss further apparently.....I thought that was the purpose of the forum. I guess some children can't discuss though and have to call others names like in kindergarten. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, yonko said:

@herne79 there has never been a role with under the hood dribbling on/off and dribble more selectable. It's logical to assume that if the option is selectable, then the instruction is not included in the role, especially since it was before (FM17 and earlier).

I don't disagree you could assume that.  But I also see the flip side and can see the thinking behind wondering if dribbling has been built in under the hood, especially when dribbling was previously hard selected in the PI screen.  So when you originally said:

On ‎18‎/‎06‎/‎2018 at 16:55, yonko said:

"Dribble more" is selectable, which means it's not hardcoded into the role. It's optional.

It doesn't necessarily mean that as the Segundo Volante (support) example later on demonstrates.

5 hours ago, yonko said:

SV has the option to select get further forward because it adds to the dynamic behavior of the role. In a nutshell, the role is a DM that moves into CM/AM strata by definition, as far as I understand it. Same way the F9 drops deep into AM positions or even CM positions. There is a difference IMO.

Agreed, there is a difference.  However by the same token we could then wonder why the F9 doesn't have a "drop deep" selectable PI to add to the dynamic flavour of that role as well.  As you say, it's similar behaviour just from the other end of the pitch.

Overall I think it's nothing more than some inconsistencies with the way in which PIs are selectable (or not).  It's two sides of the same coin and it's perfectly reasonable and logical to come at it from both sides :thup:.

And if that isn't sitting on the fence I don't know what is :D.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fence or no fence... Logical or illogical... My point was it was irrelevant and i didnt want the topic becoming a thread about my sanity. 

The description of the role is that it can dribble through the middle. It used to be a selected PI... Noe it wasnt i assumed (rightly or wrongly) it had just been made part of the role. This is why i didnt add it as a PI... Also on top of that the player i used has ppm to run with ball through centre... The PPM takes precedent over any PI

For those interested in F9... As per my summary... I found the player, in my setup, chose too often to ply the killer ball rather than exploit open spaces with a dribble. 

Herne helpfully tells us dribbling isnt hard coded. So you may wish to use the PI and see how you get on

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, herne79 said:

I don't disagree you could assume that.  But I also see the flip side and can see the thinking behind wondering if dribbling has been built in under the hood, especially when dribbling was previously hard selected in the PI screen.  So when you originally said:

It doesn't necessarily mean that as the Segundo Volante (support) example later on demonstrates.

Agreed, there is a difference.  However by the same token we could then wonder why the F9 doesn't have a "drop deep" selectable PI to add to the dynamic flavour of that role as well.  As you say, it's similar behaviour just from the other end of the pitch.

Overall I think it's nothing more than some inconsistencies with the way in which PIs are selectable (or not).  It's two sides of the same coin and it's perfectly reasonable and logical to come at it from both sides :thup:.

And if that isn't sitting on the fence I don't know what is :D.

Cause there is no "drop deeper" instruction for any player. It's a specific behavior similar to Half-Back and SV roles, for example (all roles whose behavior is to move between the lines or shift lines). There are no instructions for every aspect of the role. That's why there is under the hood coding. Dribbling has never been part of it though.

Bottom line:

The F9 role has selectable option "dribble more". If one wants the player in the role to dribble more, the logical thing is to click the option. Especially since it was part of the role before. Or if you see that it doesn't dribble enough for one's liking.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎18‎/‎06‎/‎2018 at 17:12, yonko said:

If the option is selectable (dribble more) then why would it be under the hood behavior?

 

On ‎18‎/‎06‎/‎2018 at 16:55, yonko said:

"Dribble more" is selectable, which means it's not hardcoded into the role. It's optional.

These ridiculous, idiotic statements were your start point though.

We have proved there are roles that have BOTH selectable PIs that are also hard coded under the hood.

11 minutes ago, yonko said:

The F9 role has selectable option "dribble more". If one wants the player in the role to dribble more, the logical thing is to click the option. Especially since it was part of the role before. Or if you see that it doesn't dribble enough for one's liking.

PPM > PI so if you have a player with 'runs with ball' PPM it would be logical not to select the PI

----------

If you are gonna keep repeating the same thing so will I

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...