How do I create overloads on one side?

[Armistice]

I want to do something like this.

 

https://bayerncentral.onefootball.com/2016/01/tactical-concepts-isolation-overloads/

 

In other words, overload one side before a long ball releases a marauding winger down the other flank that's isolated in a 1v1 with his opponent or is unmarked and can cross, shoot (score goals, that's what I want the most) or stretch the defence.

I tried placing an Advanced Playmaker on the wing I wanted to overload and used an assymetrical formation (4-2-3-1), also used a Roaming Playmaker in the CM slot on the AP's side and compensated with an IWB down the same flank to make sure we get like 4-5 players in one area. I placed the marauding winger in the midfield strata and gave him an attack duty. Also, my attacking midfielder was moved more towards the advanced playmaker on the wing, but maybe I overcrowded the area and there's no one centrally besides the striker who can try a long ball?

I really need help. I am trying to understand this game on my own judgement and fix what's flawed in it rather than read 1000 guides.

[Atarin]

Support duties to one side, Attack duty on the other. OIs instructing aggressive closing down on the side of the pitch that you want to loverload with no OIs for the other flank? Its pretty much how its achieved outside of football manager. Let's say you want to overload your right flank - Supporting fullback, supporting central midfielder, supporting wide player and potentially supporting forward all congregating on that right flank. Stick your Attack Duty on the left flank. You could emphasis this a little more by using the TI 'Exploit Left Flank'.

[Armistice]

25 minutes ago, Teabs said:

Support duties to one side, Attack duty on the other. OIs instructing aggressive closing down on the side of the pitch that you want to loverload with no OIs for the other flank? Its pretty much how its achieved outside of football manager. Let's say you want to overload your right flank - Supporting fullback, supporting central midfielder, supporting wide player and potentially supporting forward all congregating on that right flank. Stick your Attack Duty on the left flank. You could emphasis this a little more by using the TI 'Exploit Left Flank'.

Yeah well it's not that easy lol, it's FM where in practice it's harder to achieve than it is in real life...

Anyway, point being said I tried this but not really working tbh. Also, I could create overloads not only to move their defensive block towards one side, but also, if they don't move enough men down that side, I could be able to have one or two free players who can run with the ball and put a cross in maybe, so that's why I think a more attacking fullback could be more useful if I am to use width instead of IWB.

[Rashidi]

12 hours ago, Teabs said:

Support duties to one side, Attack duty on the other. OIs instructing aggressive closing down on the side of the pitch that you want to loverload with no OIs for the other flank? Its pretty much how its achieved outside of football manager. Let's say you want to overload your right flank - Supporting fullback, supporting central midfielder, supporting wide player and potentially supporting forward all congregating on that right flank. Stick your Attack Duty on the left flank. You could emphasis this a little more by using the TI 'Exploit Left Flank'.

On point though the OIs are different based on how different coaches approach this, you would also need to use the offside trap and defensive line intelligently to pull this off. A lot depends on the kind of players you have. I find that method 3 is the easiest for me to pull off, though it really depends on my players. It doesn't happen 100% of the time, but it does happen often enough for me to feel comfortable with it. Method 1 is the hardest, since it depends on having good players with marking as well as positioning, which is hard for me since I don't have those kind of players. And I absolutely hate Method 2, which is Klopp's style cos I have to play on higher mentalities and its always risky.

1. Method 1: Close down ball carrier, and others close down recipients of the pass

2. Method 2: Close down ball carrier - Wolf pack style

3. Method 3: Close down ball carrier - close down channels

In as far as using support duties you are spot on. Overloading any side ]of the flank to release 2v1 on the other flank is possible. And there is no secret formula to it, its all trial and error based on the players you have, and the formation you are playing with. For example, overloading with a 4231 is going to require a different set of instructions than overloading with a 442. Its actually very easy to achieve this at the moment in FM, in fact, its too easy that for some people, its an exploit.  I warned at the start of FM17 that certain roles had the potential to exploit overloads, and its been borne out. And I agree with those who feel that this gives some human players an advantage over the AI. I reckon the devs who know about this are probably going to have a hard time balancing this, because irl, overloading is a common strategy for sides like Napoli, Liverpool, Manchester City, Bayern Munich. Top sides frequently overload one side to create 2v1 on the other side, and it happens a lot. The challenge for the defending side is always a dilemma, and it's also the reason why wingbacks are now the "vogue" role at the moment.  It's going to be this balance that needs to be perfected. 

 

[Armistice]

11 hours ago, Rashidi said:

On point though the OIs are different based on how different coaches approach this, you would also need to use the offside trap and defensive line intelligently to pull this off. A lot depends on the kind of players you have. I find that method 3 is the easiest for me to pull off, though it really depends on my players. It doesn't happen 100% of the time, but it does happen often enough for me to feel comfortable with it. Method 1 is the hardest, since it depends on having good players with marking as well as positioning, which is hard for me since I don't have those kind of players. And I absolutely hate Method 2, which is Klopp's style cos I have to play on higher mentalities and its always risky.

1. Method 1: Close down ball carrier, and others close down recipients of the pass

2. Method 2: Close down ball carrier - Wolf pack style

3. Method 3: Close down ball carrier - close down channels

In as far as using support duties you are spot on. Overloading any side ]of the flank to release 2v1 on the other flank is possible. And there is no secret formula to it, its all trial and error based on the players you have, and the formation you are playing with. For example, overloading with a 4231 is going to require a different set of instructions than overloading with a 442. Its actually very easy to achieve this at the moment in FM, in fact, its too easy that for some people, its an exploit.  I warned at the start of FM17 that certain roles had the potential to exploit overloads, and its been borne out. And I agree with those who feel that this gives some human players an advantage over the AI. I reckon the devs who know about this are probably going to have a hard time balancing this, because irl, overloading is a common strategy for sides like Napoli, Liverpool, Manchester City, Bayern Munich. Top sides frequently overload one side to create 2v1 on the other side, and it happens a lot. The challenge for the defending side is always a dilemma, and it's also the reason why wingbacks are now the "vogue" role at the moment.  It's going to be this balance that needs to be perfected. 

 

It's not helping me quite a lot because you say a lot of trial and error but where do I even start? There must be a base to start from and try things from there. Support duties might help, but that's not necessarily gonna see much of ball switched down the other flank though if there is not a set of instructions. Also there's not much of ball going to be played on the side you want to overload if you don't use some roles to attract balls. Imo.

[Atarin]

Something to remember is that the PPM "Switch ball to other flank" would come in very handy. In real life a side that didn't have a player capable of seeing and playing the pass would probably not make a flank overload work all that well. As I said at the beginning, the way to start would be to load one side with support Duties with your Attacking outlet over to the other side. The whole point is draw play to your strong side, which in turn draws your opponent's Support duties over to the same side. This releases your Attacking Duty to go up against their Defend Duties. Maybe even experiment with a lopsided midfield, dragging a DM to your "strong" side. You want to create as much room for your Attacking player as absolutely possible. As Rashidi has said there are, in reality, a number of ways of achieving the over all effect but what I've described is the barest essentials.

[Rashidi]

42 minutes ago, nightwalker22 said:

It's not helping me quite a lot because you say a lot of trial and error but where do I even start? There must be a base to start from and try things from there. Support duties might help, but that's not necessarily gonna see much of ball switched down the other flank though if there is not a set of instructions. Also there's not much of ball going to be played on the side you want to overload if you don't use some roles to attract balls. Imo.

You're not helping a lot either and frankly this is a problem of your doing itself. You continually try different things then get easily frustrated.

The details you provide are vague, we can give you a whole set of roles and duties and you'd still struggle to create an overload.

first up what's an overload? Are you trying to create a 2-5 overload in midfield? Do you even know what's an overload? Each system naturally creates overloads, so you opted to go asymmetric and then?

The overload itself is easy to create, anyone who understands that  will know you need support duties to do these. I am pretty confident you are already creating overloads, but you aren't doing that effectively. 

Making an overload is the easy part. It's taking advantage of it that is the slightly harder part, getting people to either exploit the flank via a TI like pass into space or getting your players to learn traits like switch balls to other flanks, is one way.

You can create overloads with any system, and you need the players with attributes to take advantage of them. Why don't you pop a formation up and give some details instead of waiting to be spoon fed. Again you will get a guide on how to do it, in the end you still got to go out and try it.  I do plan on doing a video guide for this at some stage. Just too busy at home at the moment.

[Armistice]

On 8/18/2017 at 15:10, Rashidi said:

You're not helping a lot either and frankly this is a problem of your doing itself. You continually try different things then get easily frustrated.

The details you provide are vague, we can give you a whole set of roles and duties and you'd still struggle to create an overload.

first up what's an overload? Are you trying to create a 2-5 overload in midfield? Do you even know what's an overload? Each system naturally creates overloads, so you opted to go asymmetric and then?

The overload itself is easy to create, anyone who understands that  will know you need support duties to do these. I am pretty confident you are already creating overloads, but you aren't doing that effectively. 

Making an overload is the easy part. It's taking advantage of it that is the slightly harder part, getting people to either exploit the flank via a TI like pass into space or getting your players to learn traits like switch balls to other flanks, is one way.

You can create overloads with any system, and you need the players with attributes to take advantage of them. Why don't you pop a formation up and give some details instead of waiting to be spoon fed. Again you will get a guide on how to do it, in the end you still got to go out and try it.  I do plan on doing a video guide for this at some stage. Just too busy at home at the moment.

I get easily frustrated because I kept trying things, spent hours of my free time and in the end I came up with no satisfying result. How should I be like? I am sure everyone who tried to understand tactics were frustrated, more or less.

I already specified what kind of overload I am trying to do, that's why I posted link above. Similar to Guardiola's overloads. It's very simple to understand what an overload is, crowd a side of the field then release the ball down the other to put your player in 1v1 situation (most often) so that could help against sides that park the bus imo. Not sure what types of overloads are these like 2-5 you said about so enlighten me.. There's not much about overloads on the internet, in general terms, regarding real life football.

 

But if you wanted my tactic, here it is.

 

 

Only tried it for a friendly because I sincerely have no more time, heavily involved in my current job so I can't really afford too much time to the game. Won 3-0 against Newcastle away, 17 shots, 10 on target, 4 CCC decent. I have some issues with my right side tho. Sometimes they seem a bit crowded imo, the B2B, AM (S), and AP (S). Initially I had the CM (D) in DM strata so the two CMs weren't that spread so it created bigger issues I think.

I didn't go too much into analysing because i have no time as I said so that's what i can provide atm.

 

[Rashidi]

I have finished the overload video its uploading now and should be up tomorrow, so give it a look and let me know, cos there is information from there that you can use to create overloads. You need to understand the concept and how it applies to thirds and writing it up,  will be abooksized update lol.

 

[Armistice]

35 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

I have finished the overload video its uploading now and should be up tomorrow, so give it a look and let me know, cos there is information from there that you can use to create overloads. You need to understand the concept and how it applies to thirds and writing it up,  will be abooksized update lol.

 

Hmm alright i will check it out

[Jean0987654321]

In order to create an overload in this game, you have plenty of options

1) play an assymetric shape.

2) The use of player roles (eg. attacking roles on one side and disciplined/cautious roles on the other

3) The use of TIs and maybe PIs (Play Narrower, Exploit the Left or Right Flank?)

4) All of the Above

 

How WELL the overloads work, tho? One way is to consider the opposition and their strength and weaknesses, IMO. Thats why scouting your opposition is key before pressing play match. They can tell you which side is their weak point and you can change  the emphasis of your overload to that side. That can work well, IMO. For this you might two tactics. One to overload the left flank, and the other for the right.

 

Rasho has already got a few vids up on YT but I can also show you a few tricks of my sleeve

[Jean0987654321]

Alright, here I go...




Against Villarreal, their left side was a bit uninspring. They

started playing a 433 with an attack minded Will Hughes on the left,

the now old Victor Ruiz in defense, and a natural RB playing LB in

Vigaray as they had TWO LBs out with an injury. So, the answer was

to exploit that flank. How? We attack via the right side.
I played a 4141 shape with attacking roles on the right. That way we

have all our attack minded players constantly making forward runs on

the right and overloading that flank.


I played Control/Structured as I wanted to play a gegenpressing

game. The Structured was to make sure that my attacking minded

players actually attack and that my support roled players stick to

their job. This was also made to funnel creative freedom to my

Regista and the BPD on the right. Also to make sure that the players

follow the TIs. Speaking of TIs

That worked well as the submarine eventually came to the help of

their slow defense and it costed them another goal. Ander finds my

DW (s), Giner, as he switch the ball to the other flank and Giner

whipped in a great cross to the reliable Iniaki Williams.
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvq5jKxNdk0[/video]
 And just like that, the ball game was over. Villarreal tried to get

back in the game with a formation change but to no avail.

Another thing is to mention is PPMs. One in particular that can come

in handy is the "Likes to Switch Ball to Other Flank". One of my

players in the lineup has this PPM (Merino). That could come in

handy when the opposition shifts the defense to one side.

[Armistice]

I was thinking about overloading the weaker side so the opponent gets more players involved helping their weak flank, but also was thinking about overloading their better side so I can free my third run player 1v1 against their weak fullback/wingback/whatever hoping that he will beat him everyone he's on the ball.

Anyway, my preferred type of overload is to put a playmaker down that side and support players around him to provide passing options. That way, he will be able to pass the ball around and avoid being isolated and hopefully more opponent players gets dragged to that side. So hence my choice of B2B, AM (S) and DLF (S) near the playmaker on the right side. Now, what I understand is that I need a player to sit centrally to get the ball eventually and spray it down the other flank, in case my AP or the players near him can't launch a long ball towards my free man. So basically that's it. That's how I see this type of overload. My goal is to unlock tight defences because I've never managed to fully do that by using traditional movement.

[Jean0987654321]

9 hours ago, nightwalker22 said:

I was thinking about overloading the weaker side so the opponent gets more players involved helping their weak flank, but also was thinking about overloading their better side so I can free my third run player 1v1 against their weak fullback/wingback/whatever hoping that he will beat him everyone he's on the ball.

Anyway, my preferred type of overload is to put a playmaker down that side and support players around him to provide passing options. That way, he will be able to pass the ball around and avoid being isolated and hopefully more opponent players gets dragged to that side. So hence my choice of B2B, AM (S) and DLF (S) near the playmaker on the right side. Now, what I understand is that I need a player to sit centrally to get the ball eventually and spray it down the other flank, in case my AP or the players near him can't launch a long ball towards my free man. So basically that's it. That's how I see this type of overload. My goal is to unlock tight defences because I've never managed to fully do that by using traditional movement.

So, I'm guessing that you get it??

[Armistice]

11 hours ago, Jean0987654321 said:

So, I'm guessing that you get it??

Well yeah I just didn't know the mechanism of doing it in FM? And so far no one has given an opinion of the tactic I posted.

[fleggo]

On 18.8.2017 at 22:10, Rashidi said:

The overload itself is easy to create, anyone who understands that  will know you need support duties to do these. I am pretty confident you are already creating overloads, but you aren't doing that effectively. 

Making an overload is the easy part. It's taking advantage of it that is the slightly harder part, getting people to either exploit the flank via a TI like pass into space or getting your players to learn traits like switch balls to other flanks, is one way.

^ This.

It is pretty hard to make an overload work to create opportunities to other side of pitch consistently. Depends a lot on the formation you are facing and how much they are pressing you.

Also, making overloads aren't necessarily on your favor always, opponent can easily take advantage of you throwing a lot of people to other side of the pitch, and if they get the ball they can counter-attack by using the free space you create by committing a lot of players to one side of the pitch.

[Rashidi]

One needs to understand what overloads actually are and how they are used in real life. 

Like you've said in the real world tactics are different which is why we need to understand how another side moves the ball around which is why I have done a video on how to use Statzone and then used that to prepare for a match against United in another video called How to beat Uniteds 4231.

Finally I've also done a video on how to create overloads. Your ability to consistently do this depends on how well you can read the game and how you adjust.

You can't accept a magic pill to create a system that consistently makes these overloads but with better understanding you can improve. Some systems are naturally good at creating overloads what you need to do is figure out how you can switch the focus when you need to.

[herne79]

@Armistice I'm trying hard not to think you're now trolling us because according to this recent post of yours you stopped playing ages ago:

You randomly move from thread to thread asking questions and then seemingly give up.  How's counter attacking going (your most recent topic)?  Any feedback for all the people who've given up their free time to try to help you?

Carry on going in this manner and you'll leave me no choice but to put a stop to it.  People in this community willingly help people out and I won't have that abused.

[Armistice]

Ok after re-watching Rashidi’s videos about Overloads, I could extract some ideas:

- overloads work by putting players in an area to unlock another area for a third man attack. Not sure if I worded correctly, but it’s like support players on a side to drag the opponent’s defence towards that side, before releasing a player on the other side in a 1v1 situation. Is that correct?

- player attributes, you need players who can tick-tock the ball around until the opponent’s defence are attracted to that side, you look at composure, first touch, maybe passing, decisions, balance?

- in order to create a sustainable overload you need to create passing triangles. That gives the ball carrier passing options.

 

So are these the correct principles of an overload or am I missing something?

[Armistice]

@herne79 - Sorry mate but where did I say I stopped playing the game? I said I considered doing so. Also I posted in thr counter attack thread the tactic I used, I am going to use the advice I didn’t have enough time to post results yet...? And I have more than a save atm, one is WBA and another is Spurs where I am trying to create an attacking tactic that’s why I asked simultaneously.

 

/ Sorry for double-post.

[herne79]

7 minutes ago, Armistice said:

where did I say I stopped playing the game? I said I considered doing so.

"I was really excited to play it when it was released but I was soon forced to stop playing because it wasn't fun."

[Armistice]

6 hours ago, herne79 said:

"I was really excited to play it when it was released but I was soon forced to stop playing because it wasn't fun."

Yeah, I mean after the game was released and I started playing, I realized it had some bugs like we all know it did and I stopped playing for a while until SI released the next patch to fix those. After that, I played again to see how the game turned out.

 

Ok look if you lot don’t wanna help me anymore it’s fine, I understand, I’ll try to learn on my own.

[herne79]

2 hours ago, Armistice said:

Ok look if you lot don’t wanna help me anymore it’s fine, I understand, I’ll try to learn on my own.

It isn't about not wanting to help.  It's about you bouncing around all over the place, not reading things properly, giving up and moving on to the next project.  As you do that quite often it can lead to people feeling like they're wasting their time.

Look at your counter attacking thread.  Loads of detailed responses and what have you actually learned from it?  How have you applied it to your save?  How's it working out?  Because the next thing we all see is you digging up a 9 month old thread to ask about overloads.

By constantly moving from one save to another and from one thread to another you just end up confusing yourself even more.

[Armistice]

51 minutes ago, herne79 said:

It isn't about not wanting to help.  It's about you bouncing around all over the place, not reading things properly, giving up and moving on to the next project.  As you do that quite often it can lead to people feeling like they're wasting their time.

Look at your counter attacking thread.  Loads of detailed responses and what have you actually learned from it?  How have you applied it to your save?  How's it working out?  Because the next thing we all see is you digging up a 9 month old thread to ask about overloads.

By constantly moving from one save to another and from one thread to another you just end up confusing yourself even more.

I'm still a bit confused as why you accuse me of moving from a project to another, I've always been the advocate of attacking football and I always tried to make that working. While I still am trying to figure that out properly, I also found a save where West Brom were bottom of the table I thought hey it would be nice to take over them, keep them up and then bring my own players in to transition to a more attacking, expansive type of football. So in order to do that, I figured it out the club must be saved from relegation and since I thought their players were not good enough to implement an attacking style, I thought it would be a good idea to start with a counter-attacking strategy first. So that's how I ended up doing that thread.

Then I bumped this thread because I still have some issues with overloading in my Spurs save. I could post the tactic and the issues I experience if you want, to see that I'm genuinely serious. Is it that really bad to play two different types of football? Maybe that comes across as "moving to another project", I don't know.

I don't want people to think that I'm ignoring their advice, sometimes I don't understand what they really suggest, sometimes I have to re-read the whole discussion to get the point, sometimes I do get their point of view, if I don't come back with results immediately it doesn't mean I gave up on that project,

[herne79]

1 hour ago, Armistice said:

I'm still a bit confused as why you accuse me of moving from a project to another, I've always been the advocate of attacking football and I always tried to make that working.

Your posting history.  You create numerous threads, pose lots of questions, even send PMs around.  And then every now and again - despite all the help you've had -  you have outbursts such as this one https://community.sigames.com/topic/432503-the-fact-that-this-section-is-not-active-as-it-was-back-ago/ and others, some of which have been removed from public view.

I'm not singling you out just to have a go at you.  I want you to understand that the perception you give is you frequently chop and change without reading things properly before every now and again posting a rant - and all of this means you may run out of people willing to help you.

[MBarbaric]

12 ore fa, Armistice ha scritto:

- overloads work by putting players in an area to unlock another area for a third man attack. Not sure if I worded correctly, but it’s like support players on a side to drag the opponent’s defence towards that side, before releasing a player on the other side in a 1v1 situation. Is that correct?

 

 

Not really. The idea of overload is what it says - overload a certain zone on the pitch. It means you create a situation where you have a numerical advantage or at least numerical parity. once these conditions are created, it is either quick short passing that releases a player behind the back line, a third man run from deep, overlap... whatever. 

what you describe as an overload above, is actually a switch of point of attack. it is either a deliberate move where you deliberately lure opposition to one side (Guardiola i.e.) to quickly switch the point of attack towards the weak flank of the opponent where (hopefully) you get a 1v1 situation for your skilful dribbler to get past his marker.

This can also be a secondary option in case the opposition covers the overload so, instead of recycling possession, you immediately attack the other side. What is important is to have a plan B. if overload doesn't work, provide a different option.

[westy8chimp]

@MBarbaric correct - overload just means outnumber the opponent in a specific area of the pitch

@Jean0987654321 example is good use of the overload as plan A -> using his attack duty's* on one side means that the overload is aiming to create the goal scoring opportunities. (battering ram)

the other approach of overloading by targeting a playmaker with support bodies around him (diversion) ... with an attack duty* in the space created

*doesn't have to be attack duty, just an easy way of illustrating  can be achieved by roles

[Armistice]

31 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

Not really. The idea of overload is what it says - overload a certain zone on the pitch. It means you create a situation where you have a numerical advantage or at least numerical parity. once these conditions are created, it is either quick short passing that releases a player behind the back line, a third man run from deep, overlap... whatever. 

Okay, could you please give an example or two of how a numerical advantage would work in a certain zone on the pitch? I'm thinking a 4-4-2 v a 4-3-3, they have three CMs so using two IWBs in the 4-4-2 to create a 4-men midfield and therefore have numerical advantage in the centre of the pitch. Not sure if I understood correctly, apologies.

 

Quote

what you describe as an overload above, is actually a switch of point of attack. it is either a deliberate move where you deliberately lure opposition to one side (Guardiola i.e.) to quickly switch the point of attack towards the weak flank of the opponent where (hopefully) you get a 1v1 situation for your skilful dribbler to get past his marker.

I think that's it, I have watched Rashidi's videos about Overloads and I believe his way of creating overloads are similar to what you said. I was trying to do the same with Tottenham, but instead of having the ball switched to the other flank, I noticed my CM driving forward with the ball and taking a long shot. Also, my own player I am trying to isolate in a 1v1 situation against the opponent's fullback was very high up the pitch and close to the opponent's fullback so in other words he wasn't much of a passing option. Not entirely sure why that happens.

[westy8chimp]

1 hour ago, Armistice said:

I was trying to do the same with Tottenham, but instead of having the ball switched to the other flank,

unless I'm missing something, in your Spurs tactic you didn't have anyone on the other flank?! unless you are relying on Rose (CWB) to be your main goal threat? In which case that's a little bit weird...

1 hour ago, Armistice said:

I'm thinking a 4-4-2 v a 4-3-3, they have three CMs so using two IWBs in the 4-4-2 to create a 4-men midfield and therefore have numerical advantage in the centre of the pitch

correct, that would be an overload. But how will you use that advantage?

• You need to watch your IWBs in transitions, when do they take central positions? Do you need to lower your tempo to give them more time and be more effective?
• Once they are in position, how are you going to encourage the ball to be in that area both in possession and when you win the ball? (exploit the middle? pressing traps to funnel opponents inside?)
• What will you do once you create the overload... you have possession of the central midfield.... what next? (where is the space, who is attacking the space, how do you get the ball to that player/s?). Note: it doesn't need to be someone from a different section of the pitch. As mentioned above you can stick with plan A... your central unit could create the overload and burst through, as long as you have players willing (ppms/PI/role/duty)

those are questions you need to have in mind (can't really be spoon fed) when you create your tactic... as it will impact on your choices from mentality, shape to PI and TI...and importantly PPMs

i.e. you create the overload and have possession in the middle, you want them to then switch play to an IF(a) who is now in a position to attack vacated space (perhaps their CB has now had to come out and press where you have dominated the ball in a central area)... you could have someone with PPM 'looks for killer passes', 'likes to switch flank' and it will aid your tactic ... or you might have a player who 'likes to shoot from range' ...who squanders and hinders every good opening

[MBarbaric]

2 ore fa, Armistice ha scritto:

Okay, could you please give an example or two of how a numerical advantage would work in a certain zone on the pitch? I'm thinking a 4-4-2 v a 4-3-3, they have three CMs so using two IWBs in the 4-4-2 to create a 4-men midfield and therefore have numerical advantage in the centre of the pitch. Not sure if I understood correctly, apologies.

First, usin an overload in FM is much more difficult than in real. You can create it fairly easily in FM and example with inverted wing backs is good one. Another, fairly common and used is playing a DLFs who drops deep into the middle third adding another body to ensure numerical advantage (or at least parity). A roaming playmaker also naturaly creates overloads as he roams the pitch and moves sideways.

On the flanks, the most frequent way to create an overload is by an overlapping full back. If you also have a mezzala moving in wide zone or half space, you add additional body. A forward that drifts wide is potentially a fourth man in the same zone. So there are a few fairly comon examples.

Where the FM differs from a game of football is using the overload. A real coach will have established patterns of movement. Each player involved will know where to go in order to unbalance the defensive unit and exploit the advantage.

It can be done by simple rotation 
i.e. the winger moves deep, the CM runs diagonally into W's position and the FB moves diagonally into the half space. In addition, a striker might drop deep into half-space.

                                         ST                               \ (Direct pass option)

                                       /                                      \

                                    /                                             \
           \                      /                                               W--------------------   FB (Switch of point of attack)
         W \                  /(direct vertical pass)                                          I
         I     \                                                                                                 I
         I       \                                                                                               I
         I        CM                       CM (sideways option)                            I
         I         /                                                                                            I
                 /             DM (recycle option)                                               I
               /                                                                                                 I
         FB                                                                                                    I
                          CB (i.e. on the ball)
In this example player on the ball will have three different passing options on the flank and will choose appropriately depending on his capabilities and reaction of the defensive unit.

In addition to options on the targeted flank, the coach will designate options to recycle possession with a back-pass, move the ball centrally with a side pass and attack the depth with a vertical pass. This all happens in the same zone of left flank and half-space. Moreover, the coach might offer a third option towards the full back on the weak side (switch of point of attack) and even fourth, direct, option for a winger on a diagonal run behind the line.

In FM however, you can't really control any of these. All you can do is to mix the duties and mentalities hoping the players will use created space. in a way it is way more difficult than in real life as you don't have control to really create conditions to effectively use an overload. It becomes more situational and circumstantial.

2 ore fa, Armistice ha scritto:

I was trying to do the same with Tottenham, but instead of having the ball switched to the other flank, I noticed my CM driving forward with the ball and taking a long shot. Also, my own player I am trying to isolate in a 1v1 situation against the opponent's fullback was very high up the pitch and close to the opponent's fullback so in other words he wasn't much of a passing option. Not entirely sure why that happens.

1

1

As said above, FM isn't football. It is a game on its own where you have to master its own rules that don't necessarily have to follow real football logic. so, having some knowledge about real football tactics will help you to know what you want your players to do on the pitch. However, to actually be able to do it, you need to know how shape/mentality/role/duty/TI's/PI's interact. I 100% guarantee you that Guardiola would completely suck at this game and Rashidi or Cleon would wipe the floor with him if they had a chance. 

[Armistice]

That sounds a bit complicated, to be fair.

[MBarbaric]

49 minuti fa, Armistice ha scritto:

That sounds a bit complicated, to be fair.

sorry to hear that. If you'd be more precise I could try to explain it better.

[Armistice]

39 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

sorry to hear that. If you'd be more precise I could try to explain it better.

I understand you explained about "general" overloads in the first paragraphs, then you linked that with real life coaching, initially I felt a bit overwhelmed by the complexity of info. I am not sure if there's need for another explanation, it seems like the problem's with me as the other guy here understood the way you worded it.

[Svenc]

4 hours ago, MBarbaric said:

 I 100% guarantee you that Guardiola would completely suck at this game and Rashidi or Cleon would wipe the floor with him if they had a chance. 

Then again, in a sense it's far more robotic and simplistic than football though. I mean, discounting mentality for the moment which can influence the timing of a run on a specific micro level (debatable how much a control a manager has / should have)... players occupy set positions, basically. Not sure if you've ever tried, but if you put everybody on a defend duty (or a role that lets you enable "hold position", the team moves forward in its formation en bloc. That's FM back then and it is it now (obvioiusly also influenced by PPMS).

So what it mainly comes down to is those forward run instructions, really. For an overlap, all you needed was somebody holding his position and another from behind to do vice versa, voila. If you add two and two together, it's not much to go to approaching a (simple) overload anywhere. And be it a central midfielder joining in to overload the space in front of the opposition box, drawing defenders over the place.

 

I think that he would get that quickly. He may not wipe the ass with Rashidi reloading the same match a couple hundred times until he can "game" the Maths and code inherent repeat patterns behind it all like Neo does the Matrix. But I think he would wipe the floor with the AI rather quickly.

[MBarbaric]

1 ora fa, Svenc ha scritto:

So what it mainly comes down to is those forward run instructions, really. For an overlap, all you needed was somebody holding his position and another from behind to do vice versa, voila.

that has to be one of the best overlaps I've seen in some time never considered the ME would operate on such basic principles. However, if you have all the players hold the position, how can you create an overlapping run?

I would really like to see Guardiola facing the TC, setting up a tactic and watch it play out. I bet he would rage quit

2 ore fa, D_LO_ ha scritto:

The real life aspect was an interesting one too (not one I had really ever considered). 

well, there is much more to an overload than what a random youtube video on FM will tell you.

[MBarbaric]

2 ore fa, Armistice ha scritto:

I understand you explained about "general" overloads in the first paragraphs, then you linked that with real life coaching, initially I felt a bit overwhelmed by the complexity of info. I am not sure if there's need for another explanation, it seems like the problem's with me as the other guy here understood the way you worded it.

2

don't worry, some people learn visually, some do it by watching, listening... it doesn't tell anything about you as a person. 

the point is:

look at opposition formation and try to figure where they will have the least amount of players when they don't have the ball. Usually in areas where they have attacking minded players, or in areas that are poorly covered due to their formation.

then chose roles that will occupy that area and create at least a numerical parity. this will occupy opposition players in that area and make them difficult to track another of yours.

then add at least one of your players to make forward runs from deep from this area into space behind the defensive unit and hope that your players will have the ability to see and serve him with a pass. 

once you achieved that, you can try to be really clever and provide different options in other zones of the pitch.

[MBarbaric]

4 minuti fa, D_LO_ ha scritto:

Obviously, I just rarely, if ever think about the RL aspect to FM tactics. 

that is good actually as it saves a lot of frustration. However, don't make a mistake and think about RL tactics from FM perspective

[Armistice]

21 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

don't worry, some people learn visually, some do it by watching, listening... it doesn't tell anything about you as a person. 

the point is:

look at opposition formation and try to figure where they will have the least amount of players when they don't have the ball. Usually in areas where they have attacking minded players, or in areas that are poorly covered due to their formation.

then chose roles that will occupy that area and create at least a numerical parity. this will occupy opposition players in that area and make them difficult to track another of yours.

then add at least one of your players to make forward runs from deep from this area into space behind the defensive unit and hope that your players will have the ability to see and serve him with a pass. 

once you achieved that, you can try to be really clever and provide different options in other zones of the pitch.

This makes a lot of sense. But I am going to give you an example to see if I understood correctly. Let’s consider the situation where the opponent plays a 4-1-2-3 Wide, and his AML is a poor Work rate player who won’t track back. We decide to take advantage of that and create an overload in that area, the left flank. In this case, if I am right, there should be two players of the AI looking to cover the flank, their LB and their LCM (let’s assume the opponent is conservative enough). So I should be looking to have 2-3 players in the area to keep their players busy and maybe determine other opposition players to go there and help and hence leave their defensive position. Going by what you said, I shall have like a wingback/fullback with a more aggressive duty, on the same flank, who should look to get in behind opponent’s defence and get a through ball? Then there must be a striker at the end of the cross who will connect to it.

[Svenc]

32 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

that has to be one of the best overlaps I've seen in some time never considered the ME would operate on such basic principles. However, if you have all the players hold the position, how can you create an overlapping run?

By only making that one guy holding position. There seems to be a lot of interesting confusion how movement on this is set up in general. I think the "oldtimers" understand that a little better, see also various threads in GD. Players either move from their position (forward runs, roaming, into channels) or don't. On prior releases you had instructions for that, now it's the roles/duties (some tweakable). I think it's also a good point that in FM things are far more dependant on circumstance. Perhaps, some of it is even on purpose. I don't think an AI manager could cope if it weren't... or rather, the other way around. If you had too much of a "control", you could funnel every attack into the same area currently undermanned by the AI over and over again -- without it being able to "react". Sort of like in Anco's Player Manager or something, where you could tweak things until the same undefended move was repeated over and over. That's not management. That's just loling over opponents.

[MBarbaric]

42 minuti fa, Armistice ha scritto:

This makes a lot of sense. But I am going to give you an example to see if I understood correctly. Let’s consider the situation where the opponent plays a 4-1-2-3 Wide, and his AML is a poor Work rate player who won’t track back. We decide to take advantage of that and create an overload in that area, the left flank. In this case, if I am right, there should be two players of the AI looking to cover the flank, their LB and their LCM (let’s assume the opponent is conservative enough). So I should be looking to have 2-3 players in the area to keep their players busy and maybe determine other opposition players to go there and help and hence leave their defensive position. Going by what you said, I shall have like a wingback/fullback with a more aggressive duty, on the same flank, who should look to get in behind opponent’s defence and get a through ball? Then there must be a striker at the end of the cross who will connect to it.

 

Pretty much yes.

However, even if the player has low work rate player, it doesn't mean he will never be in position. anyway, you need 2/3 players in that zone who will hold the balland one that runs into space, Which one needs to run into space depends on where the space is. If the full back moves aggressively towards the ball, the space will be behind his back. So an overlapping full back or a CM/CF moving from central corridor towards the channel. 

if the fb stays back and the flank is covered by their CM, the space will be behind the cm so you will need different run. it is up to you to see who, from where and where to. 

 

[Armistice]

22 hours ago, MBarbaric said:

Pretty much yes.

However, even if the player has low work rate player, it doesn't mean he will never be in position. anyway, you need 2/3 players in that zone who will hold the balland one that runs into space, Which one needs to run into space depends on where the space is. If the full back moves aggressively towards the ball, the space will be behind his back. So an overlapping full back or a CM/CF moving from central corridor towards the channel. 

if the fb stays back and the flank is covered by their CM, the space will be behind the cm so you will need different run. it is up to you to see who, from where and where to. 

 

A CM-A maybe?

When you and other people explain things it’s easier to come with solutions but it’s much harder to spot things on my own before finding and applying those solutions. I often spot issues that aren’t there or in other words I don’t spot the right thing or the right issue so I don’t know, maybe practice will help.

[MBarbaric]

it doesn't pay to just guess. maybe CM-A indeed, but you need to think.

so, if we talk about above example... Our goal was to exploit the winger with poor workrate. We decided we will do that by overloading his zone (left flank). Then watch how your players, and opposition, react when the ball is in that zone.

is the weakness that we identified a weakness indeed?

If it appears so, how is our plan working?

do we get the ball there?

do we actually exploit that weakness?

 - how does the opposition react when we are in that zone?

 - Where does space appear?

 - Do we exploit it?

     - If not, who can make runs into that space to exploit it better?

[Robson 07]

Apologies for the resurrection.  Just want to say I love this thread. Real gem.

[Robson 07]

Actually a quick question on overloads.  First let me refer to the support side that draws the oppo in as the strong side and the more attacking side as the blindside or weak side.

In 1 or 2 of the examples people are using exploit the flank to enforce the overload.  The exploit side typically being the blindside.  However shouldn't exploit the flank be on the strong side to reinforce the misdirection aspect?