Hardest FM ever??? The

[Beltsu]

Hi there, fellow managers!

 

I play FM/CM since the oldie CM Itália, back in the 90's. Since FM05, I haven't missed a year. Yeah, I found it hard when the sliders disappeared, and we changed to shouts, but I welcomed the change. Every year I get some decent save, with moderate to high success. Every year for the past decade the game has been challenging, but enjoyable. I've won cups and championships. I read guides, and check the forums regularly. I know what to do.

 

But this year... what the hell???

 

I've started, and was fired, 3x on Boavista, 1x on Celta Vigo. Every time, around January/February. I started a save in Reading. Was enjoying. A lowsy 12th place on 1st season. Started the 2nd season well, and last night I was fired, on January!

 

A LOT of my bad results are due to GK/DC childish errors. I tend to dominate possession, I know how to open a defence, but the computer goalies are inhuman. 

 

I start the game always on low player experimente, as I want to role play myself on the game. I do it every year. Am I failing on the? On one of my Boavista failures I had he adequate player experience, but it didn't help much.

 

So, is just me? Or are you guys also finding this version to be one of the hardest?

 

I'm going insane with this game! I can't stop thinking about it! 

[Stephanie McMahon's Secret Lover]

I don't think so. It's about the same standard it's been for a number of seasons but then again there hasn't been much change.

I have noticed however, a large downfall in the number of people using this messageboard nowadays. 

[Svenc]

Perceived difficulty is up to the individual. Improved AI match decision making was something highlighted in the pre-release marathon, so depending on which, it might impact some (personally I still see the AI doing things that were addressed by entry level guides published by the community). There are no inhuman keepers. There is only perception bias, it being relatively easy to get attempts (quality is another matter), in particular if AI sits all back and lets you have the ball on purpose, plus it is also pretty easy to dominate possession if you are determined to tick all the boxes that would make team a sit on the ball. Careful, a few of them can be directly opposed to opening an opposition defense.

That possession thing has been partly an ME weakness, insofar as it's too easy to dominate possession. But can also be a bit of a trap if for instance you would tick all the instructions, keep things narrow, flood the centre so that moves less likely break down, but at the same time make it easy for opposition to not get positionally nor otherwise stretched when sitting ducks. Shots may go off, but play would bog down for largely lesser shots. In particular if you then aren't playing into exploits at the same time, it's a trap. Whenever I see somebody saying how he would dominate possession+shots to regularly minimal return, that's when my alarm bells start ringing. The feedback is poor on this, which is what makes the game artificially harder on that front depending on the style of playing. You can play FM in a way that regularly makes it harder for the best forwards to convert. If this is coupled with the naive perception that having more possession+shots was playing well, no dice.

Depending on your style of playing, you can turn your keeper into that supposedly "inhuman" one too. Again, that's not an inhuman keeper. It's that it is comparably easy to get attempts, any attempts... and AI opponents despite all that pre-release hype not being that clever/efficient, too, to increase the number of quality ones and in turn increase the chance of converting some.

 

[Beltsu]

I understand that it's very subjective to say that I play well if I have a lot of possession, shots and pass completion. But I assure you, I stretch the opposition, on most games I have good shots (inside the area, inside the penalty inner box even!) that are saved. Also, a lot of mistakes, own goals, penalties conceded (not even using aggressive tackles, as I did last year with Everton).

 

I also understand that possession game is not necessarily a "good" game, but just a way to play. I would actually love to create a Mourinho's Inter CA style, but I feel that the game is almost pushing us to play possession as I get the better results playing that game. When I CA with a direct game, the results are even worst.

 

Question: how important is our past experience as a player when we create the Manager? How to get a team up again, when I start to have a series of bad results?

[Svenc]

If your past experience isn't up to par, this makes the game (much) harder as players won't respect you much initially. So does definitely influence.

 

36 minutes ago, Beltsu said:

I understand that it's very subjective to say that I play well if I have a lot of possession, shots and pass completion. But I assure you, I stretch the opposition, on most games I have good shots (inside the area, inside the penalty inner box even!) that are saved.

Easy to get shots in the penalty box too, it has always been. In particular if you dominate the possession, and push the opposition back so that most of the play is in the opposition half. Question is what those shots are really like. There is no inhuman keepers, if anything, they would need some lovin' and consulting. There are just shots that are pretty easy saves, for which the root causes are typically tactical on both sides. Hopefully will see some improvement in feedback at least. Personally I've yet to meet a player for whom this wouldn't apply -- from experience, the more frustrated he was, the more strongly the uploads showed how poor the shots, as else he wouldn't be as frustrated here. Going from there, whilst this was from 2015, this was off a player who had outright ranted about this for years.

Statistically he had a point, that is a lot of shots within reasonably ranges. The game would agree with him too on that front. Still none of those shots are in any kind of space and/or pressure the keeper much, which is down to their very specific nature. The opponent is pushed back, but clears and fouls for set piece after set piece -- which is the telltale sign of never opening a defense, despite the shots. Things don't necessarily look that extreme. But considering that "big chances" in real football are missed regularly, and this includes one on ones, you may suffer additionally times if you fail to create multiple of those. One-off, anything is possible, including a keeper who has a good day. If somebody experiences this time and time again, there is something else going on.

[Stephanie McMahon's Secret Lover]

32 minutes ago, Beltsu said:

I understand that it's very subjective to say that I play well if I have a lot of possession, shots and pass completion. But I assure you, I stretch the opposition, on most games I have good shots (inside the area, inside the penalty inner box even!) that are saved. Also, a lot of mistakes, own goals, penalties conceded (not even using aggressive tackles, as I did last year with Everton).

 

I also understand that possession game is not necessarily a "good" game, but just a way to play. I would actually love to create a Mourinho's Inter CA style, but I feel that the game is almost pushing us to play possession as I get the better results playing that game. When I CA with a direct game, the results are even worst.

 

Question: how important is our past experience as a player when we create the Manager? How to get a team up again, when I start to have a series of bad results?

Remember that in real life footy you can only really play CA style against a team that will generally go forward and attack you (usually when you are the underdogs). If they sit back and defend (usually when you are expected to win) then CA is not going to be effective.

[Melroseby]

Don't think it's harder, I have won league in Germany, Qatar and enjoying a save with Atalanta in Italy. I have only one tactic and buy players to suit it, 5-3-2 with wing backs providing the width

[Beltsu]

So, I guess you guys start with automatic past experience, then? 

[fmfan74]

I love this version. I picked up a team worth 5 million and have transformed the team to 100 million worth in my fourth season and winning the championship twice in four seasons.  I focus more on money than silverware as it's the driving force for me enjoying the game.  Just like Mano poly you got money get out of jail otherwise stay I jail.

[dieu]

Compared to FM15 and 16 I find that 17 is more of a challenge because the AI is more "intelligent", but it is still not that hard. What I have found though is that it is much harder to dominate if you use the more aggressive mentalities (Control, Attacking, Overload) all the time like I used to before. Using control or attacking against a better team is usually I fine invitation to get slaugtered.

 

What I found helped me a lot was a tip I got from Bustthenet on youtube.  The tip was to redefine mentality to risk instead. So instead of seeing counter as counter attacking play style I now see it as "Less risk".

Then I becomes like this.

Contain (No Risk) - Defensive (Much less risk) - Counter (Less Risk) - Standard - Control (More Risk) - Attacking (Much more Risk) - Overload (Risk everything)

Having redefined it like this I found it was easier for me to switch between them based on the opponent I face. This has completly changed how I play.

I used to play the same way no matter what team I managed and who I faced. I still did ok in FM17 playing like that, but now that I have adapted my play style to be more tactical I find that my results has improved immensly. 

In my save I'm 12 years into the game (2029) the first 10 seasons I played the same tactic against anyone with any team. The last two season I have adapted my style based on who I face. The first season playing like this was a little varied because I was still getting used to playing like that and kept making a few mistakes, but in the second season my results improved dramatically. I am now in my third season playing like this and I am loving FM more then ever!

[ChelseaFan]

Not sure about difficulty but It's definitley the worst one ever.

#MilesOut

 

[Urg]

1 hour ago, Beltsu said:

So, I guess you guys start with automatic past experience, then? 

For me it really depends on where I want to start my career. If I'm going to manage in a top division I usually set it to automatic. If I'm going lower league I usually go for the lowest.

Managing a big(ish) club with a low manager rep will definitely make things hard to start off with. Unless you get instant good results the players are gonna be total jerks to you and it will be hard to turn them around when they lose confidence in you.

[Beltsu]

Starting a game with West Ham. Automatic experience. Gonna go for CA, direct football. Let's see how it goes. I really hope this is it. I'm getting so frustrated and annoyed with my failures this year...

[herne79]

5 minutes ago, Beltsu said:

Starting a game with West Ham. Automatic experience. Gonna go for CA, direct football. Let's see how it goes. I really hope this is it. I'm getting so frustrated and annoyed with my failures this year...

Best of luck.

Just remember there is quite a difference between counter attacking and direct football.

[Beltsu]

Still, it is doable, right? Wouldn't you consider Mourinho's Inter team, direct counter attacking?

[herne79]

9 minutes ago, Beltsu said:

Still, it is doable, right? Wouldn't you consider Mourinho's Inter team, direct counter attacking?

No idea about Inter.

All I'm saying is that in the FM ME, when a counter attack starts the AI takes over and makes your team ultra attack minded for the duration of the counter.  Thus any tactical settings you define will be used when you are not counter attacking.

[Rashidi]

6 hours ago, dieu said:

Compared to FM15 and 16 I find that 17 is more of a challenge because the AI is more "intelligent", but it is still not that hard. What I have found though is that it is much harder to dominate if you use the more aggressive mentalities (Control, Attacking, Overload) all the time like I used to before. Using control or attacking against a better team is usually I fine invitation to get slaugtered.

 

What I found helped me a lot was a tip I got from Bustthenet on youtube.  The tip was to redefine mentality to risk instead. So instead of seeing counter as counter attacking play style I now see it as "Less risk".

Then I becomes like this.

Contain (No Risk) - Defensive (Much less risk) - Counter (Less Risk) - Standard - Control (More Risk) - Attacking (Much more Risk) - Overload (Risk everything)

Having redefined it like this I found it was easier for me to switch between them based on the opponent I face. This has completly changed how I play.

I used to play the same way no matter what team I managed and who I faced. I still did ok in FM17 playing like that, but now that I have adapted my play style to be more tactical I find that my results has improved immensly. 

In my save I'm 12 years into the game (2029) the first 10 seasons I played the same tactic against anyone with any team. The last two season I have adapted my style based on who I face. The first season playing like this was a little varied because I was still getting used to playing like that and kept making a few mistakes, but in the second season my results improved dramatically. I am now in my third season playing like this and I am loving FM more then ever!

@dieuI am glad the videos helped

[Marabak]

6 hours ago, herne79 said:

All I'm saying is that in the FM ME, when a counter attack starts the AI takes over and makes your team ultra attack minded for the duration of the counter.  Thus any tactical settings you define will be used when you are not counter attacking.

That is something I didn't know! Cheers!

[Beltsu]

8 hours ago, herne79 said:

No idea about Inter.

All I'm saying is that in the FM ME, when a counter attack starts the AI takes over and makes your team ultra attack minded for the duration of the counter.  Thus any tactical settings you define will be used when you are not counter attacking.

What does that mean? Does it mean that when I get the ball, the players just go gu-ho attacking, ignoring the instructions? So, let's say I tell them to focus attack through one side, they ignore it? Not that, right?

[KlaaZ]

29 minutes ago, Beltsu said:

What does that mean? Does it mean that when I get the ball, the players just go gu-ho attacking, ignoring the instructions? So, let's say I tell them to focus attack through one side, they ignore it? Not that, right?

There are more requirements than simply you recovering the ball. 

Have a read of Cleon's thread about counterattacking, to date still the best thing I've ever read. 

 

[herne79]

7 hours ago, Beltsu said:

What does that mean? Does it mean that when I get the ball, the players just go gu-ho attacking, ignoring the instructions? So, let's say I tell them to focus attack through one side, they ignore it? Not that, right?

Not whenever you get the ball no.  Only when the ME deems that the right criteria has been met for you to launch a counter attack.  (Note that it works both ways, the opposition is quite capable of launching counters against you as well).

That "criteria" is based on a set of logical rules built into the ME that determines when the opposition (or you) have over committed men forward in an attack.  Thus, when you win the ball back under the conditions of these logical rules, then (and only then) your players will indeed go ultra-attacking ignoring your tactical instructions to start a swift counter attack.  Once the counter attack is over, your players revert back to your defined tactical instructions.

Therefore, as I said above, any tactical instructions you set will be used when you are not counter attacking, and there is quite a difference between the direct football and the counter attacking football that you say you want to play.

As @KlaaZ above mentions, that linked thread goes into it in great detail.

[Beltsu]

2 hours ago, herne79 said:

Not whenever you get the ball no.  Only when the ME deems that the right criteria has been met for you to launch a counter attack.  (Note that it works both ways, the opposition is quite capable of launching counters against you as well).

That "criteria" is based on a set of logical rules built into the ME that determines when the opposition (or you) have over committed men forward in an attack.  Thus, when you win the ball back under the conditions of these logical rules, then (and only then) your players will indeed go ultra-attacking ignoring your tactical instructions to start a swift counter attack.  Once the counter attack is over, your players revert back to your defined tactical instructions.

Therefore, as I said above, any tactical instructions you set will be used when you are not counter attacking, and there is quite a difference between the direct football and the counter attacking football that you say you want to play.

As @KlaaZ above mentions, that linked thread goes into it in great detail.

Great description, @herne79. I'll read the CA thread, and take your words into account. 😉

 

Thanks a lot.

[Svenc]

Re: counter/direct/possession.

To clarify, I didn't mean to say that a possession based style was bad. It's just that if you become obsessed about possession stats, you can do things that totally harm the chance of ever converting shots. The opening post sounded alarming, as the possession stat itself seemed to be quoted as some further "proof" of superiority. There is "possession" ahem specialists here that traditionally go all the way until they dominate that stat with average sides against the world class. All you need to do traditionally is flood the centre of the pitch, play ultra narrow, tweak the wide players of the formation to additionally tuck in narrow, untick everything that would players take much attacking risk -- and you can dominate that measly stat with Bournemouth at Camp Nou, say.

The engine is visibly about creating/denying space. There's two basic schools of football roughly, one is getting the ball forward quickly. The other is getting a hold of the ball and outplaying opposition. This can totally bog down visibly in front of the opposition goal if there is no movement/width involved -- if you watch the above vid it briefly shows that no matter who reaches the ball next, he's immediately under pressure/marked. The side sitting ducks has it **** easy to defend. Just meant to say that having lots of possession isn't outplaying, and it's arguably too easy to get shots (statistically) still, which creates the illusion that defenses were challenged, when they aren't necessarily much. And when that happens, that's when the rage quitting starts.