This time for real

[looping]

1 minute ago, Craigus89 said:

That's because you haven't tried. You've had bad results and come on here to moan.

No, I'm not moaning. I'm asking for help. Now that everything is awful, what can I do?

You said watch games and see what's happening. That's what I did and I just showed you. Do you need any other info, if you are interested to help?

[Craigus89]

2 minutes ago, looping said:

No, I'm not moaning. I'm asking for help. Now that everything is awful, what can I do?

Have you tried Candy Crush?

[shadster]

11 hours ago, looping said:

Ok.

TI: be more disciplined, stick to positions, get stuck in.

PI: only to gk, roll it out, slow pace down, distribute to centerbacks.

 

The idea behind this tactic is:

- Compactness, reducing space between the lines.

- Aggression, tackling hard opponents.

- Discipline and teamwork.

- Fast transitions, based on quick movement of the ball and direct passing: defenders/deep lying playmaker-target man-Advanced Forward/Wide Midfielders

- Wide play and crosses, provided by two aggressive wide midfielders 

 

Great ideas came from here https://www.addictedtofm.com/leicester-city-on-football-manager/

My team is playing the way I want, despite some defensive issues persist.

 

As has been explained, my gk is instructed to roll it out, slow pace down, distribute to centerbacks (not that I want to play out the defense, it's just the gk passes the ball to the opponent)

My defense is pretty orthodox. Nothing fancy. I'd like to use BPD but I don't have cb with passing and vision abilities.

Midfield is based on two holders, one more creative and the other more destroyer. The dlp role I think is crucial because he gets the ball deep and tries killer balls moving the ball quickly from the back to the front. Furthermore, h he holds position which provides extra cover in midfield.

Down the flanks, we have two aggressive midfielders who are expected to be a real threat for the opponent and, very important, track back to defend.

Up front, there is a combination of  a Target Man, the target of the direct passes sent from deep positions and an AF as a cutting edge.

Not rocket science.

 

Very fluid shape provides great compactness which is needed not only because my idea follows this principle but because 442 creates big gaps between players that need to be reduced. https://community.sigames.com/topic/364527-developing-my-4-4-2/ Here @herne79 used different instructions to achieve the same effect.

To some extent, very fluid shape is a bit complicated in terms of modifying the mentality; in very fluid shape, players don't deviate from team mentality so going from standard to control produces a huge effect. For that reason, I stayed on standard which is a good and moderated starting point. That doesn't mean I can't change it, but being aware going to control may produce a big effort.

"The combination of Very Fluid shape with Standard mentality offers synergy due to it's balance. The entire team attacks and defends as a unit.

The downside (if misunderstood) of very fluid is that it effectively magnifies your mentality changes massively. For example, using very fluid + attack means you have 4 David Luiz in your back-line. Using very fluid + defend means your attackers are very risk averse and primarily defend.

If understood correctly, tweaking mentality at the correct stage of a game can be a real weapon for you."

https://community.sigames.com/topic/373361-arrigo-sacchis-4-4-2-very-fluid/

 

Get stuck in TI, has only one purpose: aggression and tackling. We got 3 red cards in 10 games, a bit concerning, but it's part of the deal.

Be more disciplined tries to kill creative freedom coming from very fluid shape. My players have their roles and duties, which shows them what I want them to do. There is no point in user a DLP and a TM and then tell the players "guys do whatever you want because you know better".

Stick to positions follows a similar logic and also helps to restrict space https://community.sigames.com/topic/400065-building-a-squad-to-win/

 

Bonus track. Two instructions I didn't use and why:

- More direct passing. My players are already direct passing due to the presence of a TM

- Pass into space. My players are already passing into space because we've createdspace/the space has been offered.

 

 

 

Some examples of how the team plays:

https://vid.me/Eax0

Here you can see we are defending quite compact (maybe wm too wide), interception by right full back, tm fights for the second ball, dlp gets the ball and tries a killer pass to Belotti who scored.

 

https://vid.me/FC6W

This is a different goal. Here the opposition is defending deep. Great great pass by cb (not expected to do so but I'm not going to complain) to the aggressive forward run of my right wm, cross and goal.

 

https://vid.me/ewFt

Defending deep, we win the ball back and a direct pass to tm who tries a killer ball to Belotti. With 2 touches we went from our box to their. Excellent.

 

https://vid.me/6HM9

And this is possibly my preferred goal. Excellent. Great, great transition, three touches and we completely opened the opponent. This is how football must be played, in my opinion.

 

Performances by Calleri playing TM role are shocking. He is not tall, not specially good at heading and he lacks aggression...

Now, this is going to stop working. This tactic, even if it's perfectly created, relies on having some space available so against stubbornly defensive sides I will struggle. In addition, despite the defensive compactness, I have problems with AMs, CM surging from deep and withdrawn strikers. Basically, to some extent, I can manage 2 vs 3 situations in midfield but not 2 vs 4. This is a typical play:

https://vid.me/ITQh

I don't want to derail from this so when I start losing I will stop playing and I will start thinking on how to tweak the tactic to be successful again. Now I know how my team plays so this should be an achievable goal, I hope.

 

 

On those previous videos you weren't using very fluid, were you? The two showing the defensive plays.

Anyway, be aware that very fluid does indeed what you say, team is more compact. But besides that, makes your team, including defenders act with much more freadom, the discipline you want to see is much more difficult to achieve with very fluid, in my opinion. Everybody in the team is supposed to defend and to attack. So, the possibilities of your players are caught off position are much higher. 

[looping]

1 minute ago, shadster said:

On those previous videos you weren't using very fluid, were you? The two showing the defensive plays.

Anyway, be aware that very fluid does indeed what you say, team is more compact. But besides that, makes your team, including defenders act with much more freadom, the discipline you want to see is much more difficult to achieve with very fluid, in my opinion. Everybody in the team is supposed to defend and to attack. So, the possibilities of your players are caught off position are much higher. 

I was using very fluid.

To kill that freedom I added TI Be more disciplined and stick to positions, it is explained in the post you quoted.

[Armistice]

How do you call that comical defense? First link is a set piece, your GK is at fault if anything for coming out to punch that ball.

 

Second link the problem is in transition, not sure where your FB sits but when they march towards your goal it seems like your FB does not return to his defensive position fast enough. A CB (I think) tries to cover his duties so a gap is created. Very simple.

 

Having watched third link, your CBs are occupied by two opposition players and their player that gets the ball is unmarked. It is a bit strange that I noticed how both your CMs close down the ball and that leads to leaving your defence exposed. One of your CMs should have marked the goal scorer or at least sat back and give protection to the back four.

[pheelf]

How much of this is actually helping you @looping ?

You are treating this game almost like an academic pursuit with an exam and diploma at the end of it when it really isn't that at all. Hell, if you want to go that far into it why not try and get RL experience and apply for coaching badges (at least eventually you might get paid for all the stress).

If anything you are trying to assimilate too much information (sometimes contradictory) to produce a coherent whole which makes no sense at all.

What you are doing is akin to deciding to bake a cake and then chucking in random ingredients, "Well, lemon tastes nice in a lemon drizzle cake therefore that's in, chocolate fudge cakes are nice so that's in...." without any thought about how the whole thing fits together at all (which @Svenc stated earlier).

You don't get good at something by constantly asking other people with a range of differing opinions what to do. You get good by experience and trying things out and learning from your mistakes. I feel that you post here as a means of trying to 'shortcut' the system of learning for yourself in the hope that other people will give you all the answers which they can't. Especially since you haven't even established exactly how you'd like to see your team play. Also consider the fact that sometimes what you observe in RL football can't be replicated in FM.

You can read as many guides as you like but nothing beats experience as that is the ONLY way you are going to learn. As it stands, your way of playing this game appears to be completely incoherent with seemingly no reasoning behind why you make the decisions that you do. For e.g. What did you observe during the games you watched that prompted you into playing with a Very Fluid team shape? And no, saying "Well someone else did it and it seemed to work for them" isn't really an answer.

It also gets rather tiresome for other people that are trying to help you when they keep getting ignored.

Why aren't you playing FMT like you said you would?

Why have you decided to put those GK PIs back in when employing a target man?

Why aren't you considering aspects outside of tactics as the reason why you keep getting fired? 

Why such contradictory TIs?

How do manage morale?

How do you pick players in your starting lineup?

How do you decide when and who to substitute?

Why do you make the signings that you do? How do they fit into the system you want to play?

How do you conduct team talks? Press conferences?

When analyzing matches in Prozone, what are you looking for exactly?

When watching matches, what are hoping to see?

What's tactic familiarity and team cohesion like before games (which is why I suggested to play in FMT)?

Everybody's got opinions mate, all based on their experiences. The problem is that nobody is inside your head except you therefore I fail to see how any of the advice you have been given is going to lead to anything productive when you refuse to learn for yourself.

If you had spent as much time observing and making notes in the ME as you do coming on here and asking for help you'd probably be an expert by now and able to offer others advice. That's why I said you need to start from the beginning and proceed by layering things one on top of the other rather than this approach which has you getting frustrated as you repeat the same cycle over and over again.

[Craigus89]

@pheelf Excellent Post. Sadly, I doubt it will get through though.

[Wilesy]

The Belotti shots, I don't see an issue. He's trying to play it in the corner and simply missing. I can think of several players who have spells without scoring. The chances are clearly being created.

I'd try one simple thing, move Belotti to the right side of attack rather than the left. To me he looks awkward when shooting so I'd switch it. Simple change that may not make a difference but it's worth trying.

[looping]

2 hours ago, pheelf said:

Especially since you haven't even established exactly how you'd like to see your team play.

Yes, I have and has been quoted by shadster

The idea behind this tactic is:

- Compactness, reducing space between the lines.

- Aggression, tackling hard opponents.

- Discipline and teamwork.

- Fast transitions, based on quick movement of the ball and direct passing: defenders/deep lying playmaker-target man-Advanced Forward/Wide Midfielders

- Wide play and crosses, provided by two aggressive wide midfielders 

I even posted videos where anybody can see it effectively working.

2 hours ago, pheelf said:

What did you observe during the games you watched that prompted you into playing with a Very Fluid team shape?

Also explained. Less space between defense and midfield. I've seen it. Watching games.

2 hours ago, pheelf said:

Why aren't you playing FMT like you said you would?

You are right on this but has an explanation. Keep reading, please.

2 hours ago, pheelf said:

Why have you decided to put those GK PIs back in when employing a target man?

This has been also explained, specifically, and has been implemented after watching matches and spotting it.

My gk is instructed to roll it out, slow pace down, distribute to centerbacks (not that I want to play out the defense, it's just the gk passes the ball to the opponent)

2 hours ago, pheelf said:

Why aren't you considering aspects outside of tactics as the reason why you keep getting fired? 

I am. Keep reading please.

 

2 hours ago, pheelf said:

How do manage morale?

My players morale is high, even when losing because then we have a team meeting that produces a boost in morale.

 

2 hours ago, pheelf said:

Why such contradictory TIs?

I explained why I used both TI. I even explained why I didn't use others. This is not "let's try a different combination of TI and see what happens". There is thinking behind. There is watching games and trying to modify what's happening on the pitch. I'm already doing this. Please, believe me, I'm watching matches and trying to change what I don't like.

2 hours ago, pheelf said:

How do you pick players in your starting lineup?

I have my preferred eleven as an starting point. I rotate players, attending the opponent. I never use a player if his is tired/not fit. In this last case, I would bring him for the last 15-20 mins (if I'm two goals up). Otherwise, I'll play them in Cup games against much weaker teams so they get fit. No, I'm not doing this terribly wrong.

2 hours ago, pheelf said:

How do you decide when and who to substitute?

It depends on a lot of circumstances. Low rating, tired, rotate players, injured, a tactical tweak,... No, I'm not doing this terribly wrong.

2 hours ago, pheelf said:

Why do you make the signings that you do? How do they fit into the system you want to play

Yes. I would never sign Ozil, he would never fit in my tactic, for instance. I pay attention to reports, personality. No, I'm not signing players because I see 4-5 stars.

2 hours ago, pheelf said:

How do you conduct team talks? Press conferences?

It depends. Team talks are variated, I never give the same team talk 2 games in a row, for instance, because I've spotted my players say it's repetitive. I pay a lot of attention to reports to see how my players react to team talks.

Press conferences are a bit different. I defend my players. If someone, for instance, says anything against Belotti because is missing chances (that's an actual case) I defend him. I try to relief pressure. Then, my team talk can be different (can, not must). I want to protect my players from press environment but that doesn't mean I can be hard in team talks if needed (even aggressive/unhappy if we play very bad).

2 hours ago, pheelf said:

When analyzing matches in Prozone, what are you looking for exactly?

First of all, average positions. I want to see if someone is out of his position creating gaps or not behaving as expected. For instance, is my tm dropping deep?

Once I've checked it I go to shots on goal and analyze each one. Long shots and free kicks discarded. Shots from inside the box, I see the build up, stop rewind...

I pay also attention to interceptions, specially if there is one player who made a lot in midfield.

Etc...

2 hours ago, pheelf said:

When watching matches, what are hoping to see?

I explained it but again:

Attacking: 

- Fast transitions, based on quick movement of the ball and direct passing: defenders/deep lying playmaker-target man-Advanced Forward/Wide Midfielders

- Wide play and crosses, provided by two aggressive wide midfielders 

- Players running into space

Defending:

- Compactness, reducing space between the lines.

- Aggression, tackling hard opponents.

- Players tracking back to their defensive positions.

2 hours ago, pheelf said:

What's tactic familiarity and team cohesion like before games (which is why I suggested to play in FMT)?

 

I'm not doing anything terribly wrong. If anyone still wants to help you must understand this: don't think in terms you'll find and obvious and terrible mistake, this is not the case. 

[herne79]

Personally I have nothing constructive to add to this thread so I've backed out if it.

Moaning and having little digs aren't constructive, so please keep things constructive or don't post.

[difran8]

14 minutes ago, looping said:

I'm not doing anything terribly wrong.

 

14 minutes ago, looping said:

- Fast transitions, based on quick movement of the ball and direct passing

Not with 'very fluid', no.

Anyway, this is the first thread of yours i've been in, and now i somewhat understand the complains others have had. You are getting repetitive and tiring. I suggest you limit yourself to one thread only, the 'looping thread'

[looping]

3 minutes ago, difran8 said:

 

Not with 'very fluid', no.

Anyway, this is the first thread of yours i've been in, and now i somewhat understand the complains others have had. You are getting repetitive and tiring. I suggest you limit yourself to one thread only, the 'looping thread'

Some examples of how the team plays:

https://vid.me/Eax0

Here you can see we are defending quite compact (maybe wm too wide), interception by right full back, tm fights for the second ball, dlp gets the ball and tries a killer pass to Belotti who scored.

 

https://vid.me/FC6W

This is a different goal. Here the opposition is defending deep. Great great pass by cb (not expected to do so but I'm not going to complain) to the aggressive forward run of my right wm, cross and goal.

 

https://vid.me/ewFt

Defending deep, we win the ball back and a direct pass to tm who tries a killer ball to Belotti. With 2 touches we went from our box to their. Excellent.

 

https://vid.me/6HM9

And this is possibly my preferred goal. Excellent. Great, great transition, three touches and we completely opened the opponent. This is how football must be played, in my opinion.

 

Performances by Calleri playing TM role are shocking. He is not tall, not specially good at heading and he lacks aggression...

Now, this is going to stop working. This tactic, even if it's perfectly created, relies on having some space available so against stubbornly defensive sides I will struggle. In addition, despite the defensive compactness, I have problems with AMs, CM surging from deep and withdrawn strikers. Basically, to some extent, I can manage 2 vs 3 situations in midfield but not 2 vs 4. This is a typical play:

https://vid.me/ITQh

I don't want to derail from this so when I start losing I will stop playing and I will start thinking on how to tweak the tactic to be successful again. Now I know how my team plays so this should be an achievable goal, I hope.

[looping]

Ok. Let's go to FMT. Arsenal

 

First match Arsenal Man City

 

Once the match starts, first thing I note is Silva playing very narrow, probably an AP role. Bellerin is following him so a gap is created. I expect their fullback to run into this space.

The games goes, there is nothing I feel is wrong so I change nothing. Everybody is doing what i expect from them, except my cb and cm who are not tackling:

This is exactly how I want my team to play:

https://vid.me/Bzpf

Defend tight, tackle, win the ball back, pass it to dlp or tm, and pass it into space for af/wm. In possession, pass the ball to a flank and cross. 

It's not rocket science, almost anyone can do that. And we are doing it, to some extent:

https://vid.me/qrMM

 

The problem is my players are not tackling and are not winning the ball back. They are very passive. I want to see fouls, I want to see yellow cards, if needed, but I don't want them to be passive.

Do you see what I mean? They don't defend, they just watch!

https://vid.me/jCKS

https://vid.me/NbnT

 

We scored a good goal. The first we conceded was this:

https://vid.me/T7Ov I don't find an explanation for this. Maybe this just happens. I don't know.

 

And the second, comical:

https://vid.me/oxLK

 

To sum up, my central players are not defending. The rest is ok.

[MHovel]

37 minutes ago, looping said:

Performances by Calleri playing TM role are shocking. He is not tall, not specially good at heading and he lacks aggression...

Now, this is going to stop working. This tactic, even if it's perfectly created, relies on having some space available so against stubbornly defensive sides I will struggle. In addition, despite the defensive compactness, I have problems with AMs, CM surging from deep and withdrawn strikers. Basically, to some extent, I can manage 2 vs 3 situations in midfield but not 2 vs 4. This is a typical play:

https://vid.me/ITQh

I don't want to derail from this so when I start losing I will stop playing and I will start thinking on how to tweak the tactic to be successful again. Now I know how my team plays so this should be an achievable goal, I hope.

In this particular case, do you mind posting here the RB attributes, it's quite intresting to see what the RB defensive attributes are? 

From my experience with football, his position is totally useless and not part of the defensive line at the end of the highlight.

when the opposition attack in the opposite flank the RB needs to come more closer to the middle and in some situation (especially in your situation when the right wide midfilder is marking the opposition winger, your RB presence is just a waist and in my opinion it's something that related to ME issue or something that need to be improved in the future version).

if the opposition left back and left winger were higher up the pitch, I would say that the opposition streched your defensive line and this might be the reason that your RB is so far from your CB's, but in this case, it's not the issue.

in the highlight, when the opposition moved the ball to the center, the RB must be closer to the CB since you are playing compact shape (now, make the comprassion between your left back distance to the CB, and to your RB distance to your CB and see how closer the LB is to your CB compared to  the RB).

if such scenarios occurs IRL, the RB will be more closer to the CB in order to remove space (as I said before, especially when playing more compact shape) and especially when your CB's decide to close down more in the highlight, the RB automatically suppose to cover the center.

I can only suggest you that this posts you created here with the video's you should post it in the bug forums and even if it's not considered as a bug (yet) i still believe this is something that need to addressed or checked by the devs.

 

Regarding your finishing problems, I have a simillar issue (I have simillar issues with finishing with strikers I would have posted them in the bug forums but I'm tired and I stopped playing the game, I'm still here because i love the concept and read about football stuff because I find them quite intresting), i also tried 2 strikers combinations when my striker being isolated but even then, I fail to score.

I MANAGE TO GET CHANCES SUCH AS YOU GAVE HERE AND EVEN MORE CONVINIENT CHANCES OF ONE ON ONE, but I still fail to score and I cannot understand why.

I prefere that If I had issues with my tactics, than my team won't get chances at all and they won't be able to exploit space etc...

but playing a match and losing 1-0 and when lossing my team had numerous chances and then blaming the tactic, it doesn't make sense.

If a player such as callum wilson cannot score goals or other players with 15 finishing and quite decent composure, concetration, balance etc and he is fairly consistent performer and still get lower ratings because he keeps missing chances...  than I think SI shouldn't be given such of attribute rating to those players, it's totally misleading.

[looping]

What is happening is obvious.

 

https://vid.me/jCKS

 

I'm outnumbered in midfield. My players have to run like chicken without head. This creates imbalances and gaps. The ME represents this imbalances as players being passive because they have to cover too much space. If I had a dm this wouldn't happen.

The ME is biased against 442. The wide positioning of wingers and favoured overloaded midfield are key. This wouldn't happen in real life.

I'm done.

[Craigus89]

Just now, looping said:

I'm outnumbered in midfield. My players have to run like chicken without head. This creates imbalances and gaps. The ME represents this imbalances as players being passive because they have to cover too much space. If I had a dm this wouldn't happen.

The ME is biased against 442. The wide positioning of wingers and favoured overloaded midfield are key. This wouldn't happen in real life.

I'm done.

THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENS IN REAL LIFE!

[looping]

Just now, Craigus89 said:

THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENS IN REAL LIFE!

I'm not going to discuss it. I'll play 433 and that's it.

[Dr. Hook]

Thread closed. It is past its sell-by date and has become counterproductive and divisive.