The art of conceding

[looping]

Almost 1 year after I bought fm, I think I've made big improvements in the way I play. In spite of this, there is something that is still shocking me.In every save, whatever the team, whatever the players, whatever the tactic, whatever everything, happens the same. After some games (around 20-30) my team starts conceding absolutely like crazy. I've been trying to understand why and I don't have a clear conclusion. I'll try to expose my thinking and I'll be very thankful if somebody helps. I think I'm really very close to understand the game. Just a last click is needed.

So, the problem is: after 20-30 games I start conceding an outrageous amount of goals. I won't post any tactic, because it happens with any tactic i've tried. Note that in this firts 20 games i'm almost unbeatable and my defense is stubborn. One of my saves, with Malaga (no transfers) first 19 games 15-2-2, 41scored 7 conceded.

The problem is not attacking. My problem is defending. After this 20 games, I still score the same, even more, but conced a lot. A lot means at least 1 goal in every single game. I conced a lot from:

- Set pieces: In the first 20 games I hardly ever conced from set pieces

- Crosses

- Players moving into channels in front of my box

I'm not conceding from counters, balls over the top... It is positional defending, and specially, set pieces. When I say set pieces is not corner-header. It is corner, we clean, the opponent wins the ball back and crosses/shots from distance... I don't thinks it is a problem with my positioning.

It is very important to understand that in the first 20 games I watch the first 15 mins and try adjust things. I do it succesfully. I can identify and fix, for instance, overlapping fullbacks or deep lying strikers who drag my defenders. My tweaks are effective, but stop being after this 20 games.

Posible causes:

1. My tactic uses direct passing which exploits the space left by opposition teams who think they are better. Now, the see me more of a threat and play more defensive, so my tactic is less effective because they leave less space and they exploit the space I leave behind. 
This is very important, because it's not happening, or, better said, it is not the problem. I face opponents sitting deep from the first match of the season. I can identify that. I'm not always able to unlock them, but I can identify when a team is sitting deep, and it is not happening in most of the games. 
In addition, if this was the case, then I should beat teams which, after this 20 games, still think they are better, and I'm not beating them. 

2. Complacency. I try to manage the moral of my players, and no signs of complaceny appear. I pay attention to my ass man reports, and no sign of complacency appears.

3. My players are tired. I try to play with 18 players who more or less play the same amount of games. I don't see my players tired.

4. My team is not good enough and my initial results were unrealistic and caused by good luck. If there is no reason (it's just that when I'm not lucky any more I start losing), why it happens in every save like a clear pattern? Why it happens in every save, whatever the team? I could understand that using a mid table team, but when playing with a big one, this can't be the reason.

 

 

[alexhcfc]

I seem to have a similar problem...

In new saves, I usually finish season 1 strongly and have a good team for my style of play. However, at the beginning of season 2, almost all the time, I can't buy a win. Whether it's scoring or conceding, something changes and what was a well balanced, consistent tactic, turns into a relitively suicidal tactic. I understand teams begin to sit deeper but generally my team is good at breaking down defensive teams, even by just one goal, and they very rarely concede more than one.

 

I am not experienced or knowledgable to know the reasoning behind it but I guess the AI managers have sussed you/us out. They find a way of stopping the team from doing what it normally does and then form comes into play, extending it... That's my guess anyway. 

 

Sorry it wasn't as informative as you may have liked, but I hope it's been worth reading ?

[looping]

Thanks for your reply.

My problem is always the same and it is focused in defense. No matter what I do. After that 20-30 games, I can do whatever I want but results will stay awful for ever in the save, even in next season (if I'm not sacked before). 

It is weird because in the first games, I can spot issues and fix them. Later, absolutely whatever I do has no positive effect: from small tweaks to a new formation. Everything fails.

I'm/we are missing something, which I think is in front of your eyes and we can't see it. It's been 1 year for me to understand the basics of the game and I have the feeling I have to make the last step.

[herne79]

58 minutes ago, alexhcfc said:

I guess the AI managers have sussed you/us out

AI managers don't suss you out.  But they are very good at adapting how they play against you based on your success and reputation.  So whilst initially you may perhaps have been enjoying space the opposition gave you because they possibly played in a more open manner, now they might have tightened things up to deny you that space.  They have possibly adapted, thus you may need to as well.

[isignedupfornorealreason]

If they're not sitting deep, then perhaps you need to do it yourself?

Are your defenders getting outplayed/passed by the opposition attack? Perhaps thats an indication that they're getting skinned. Dropping the line and packing more defensive bodies might help.

If the opposition push forward and have a high line, you have the answer for exploiting them by getting in behind with your direct play already.

[looping]

8 hours ago, isignedupfornorealreason said:

If they're not sitting deep, then perhaps you need to do it yourself?

Are your defenders getting outplayed/passed by the opposition attack? Perhaps thats an indication that they're getting skinned. Dropping the line and packing more defensive bodies might help.

If the opposition push forward and have a high line, you have the answer for exploiting them by getting in behind with your direct play already.

Yes, I can do that. In, fact I do that. If I try it during the first 20-30 games I totally destroy them. I can easily beat Barcelona and Madrid.

I can identify when a team is sitting deep or when they are not and I adapt succesfully my tactic to the situation. For instance, in one of my saves,  I used a counter tactic fluid shape with be more disciplined TI. Against attacking teams It was unbelievable effective. Totaly destroying the opponent. When I saw a deep defense just unticking be more disciplined was usually enough to unlock them. But all this only happens during the first 20-30 games.

The problem comes after this 20-30. Then, attacking teams will totally destroy my defense, despite I'll be able to create 2-3 ccc (which my players will miss). Defensive teams will dominate me I'll have no possession and the will score after short passing (this is very important, I'm not hit on the counter, they score me in positional defense).

I would say I have a moral problem but I don't see any signs. My ass man says my players are motivated. I talk to them assertive/aggressive don't get relaxed blabla (I play the game in spanish, I don't know the exact translation).

In my first 20-30 games, my results are unrealistically good. I mean, using Milan I won first 21 games 20 wins 1 draw. With Malaga I won 15 of the first 19. Scoring a lot, conceding few. Then my defense becomes terrible. My players don't tackle, just watch the opponent. Easy passes missed. Set pieces and crosses destroy me. It's like lacks of concentrations are costing me goals, but I don't see any sign of complacency

[isignedupfornorealreason]

5 hours ago, looping said:

Defensive teams will dominate me I'll have no possession and the will score after short passing (this is very important, I'm not hit on the counter, they score me in positional defense).

Is the answer to that a lack of pressing? So more aggressiveness is needed to win back the ball?

[looping]

41 minutes ago, isignedupfornorealreason said:

Is the answer to that a lack of pressing? So more aggressiveness is needed to win back the ball?

Yes and no.

It's true that it seems a lack of pressing/aggressiveness. I already tried increasing closing down and/or get stuck in/tackle harder pi. This only results on more pressing, but losing shape and missed tackles.

Sometimes, I see, during the 20-30 first games, a lack of pressing and then I increase closing down and I get what I'm looking for.

Two questions: How can I know if:

- My players are overconfident. Only with ass man reports or during matches paying attention to their body language?

- My players are tired. I only see they are fit, because I'm rotating them (around 18 players)

[summatsupeer]

22 hours ago, looping said:

2. Complacency. I try to manage the moral of my players, and no signs of complaceny appear. I pay attention to my ass man reports, and no sign of complacency appears.

3. My players are tired. I try to play with 18 players who more or less play the same amount of games. I don't see my players tired.

4. My team is not good enough and my initial results were unrealistic and caused by good luck. If there is no reason (it's just that when I'm not lucky any more I start losing), why it happens in every save like a clear pattern? Why it happens in every save, whatever the team? I could understand that using a mid table team, but when playing with a big one, this can't be the reason.

 

6 hours ago, looping said:

I would say I have a moral problem but I don't see any signs. My ass man says my players are motivated. I talk to them assertive/aggressive don't get relaxed blabla (I play the game in spanish, I don't know the exact translation).

In my first 20-30 games, my results are unrealistically good. I mean, using Milan I won first 21 games 20 wins 1 draw. With Malaga I won 15 of the first 19. Scoring a lot, conceding few. Then my defense becomes terrible. My players don't tackle, just watch the opponent. Easy passes missed. Set pieces and crosses destroy me. It's like lacks of concentrations are costing me goals, but I don't see any sign of complacency

Do you tend to buy the same kind of players each save?  Do the players lack concentration?  Lack Determination? When recruiting/selling do you rule out players due to personality or focus more on attributes?

You've mentioned concentration but what about confidence? Sometimes i'm quite hard on the players, especially if I get mad after we lose a game we were dominating, other times when I recognize they were unlucky it takes some pressure off them (usually says something like "relieved".  

Natural Fitness is the way to tell how many games a player can cope with before they get the Needs Rest icon.  If you play 2 games a week very often then this is where you need good squad depth.  That will also allow you to let a player who is on form keep playing rather than having to decide "do I let this 2 star play again or put the 4.5 star back in?".

Team Meeting can be useful to bump up moral and confidence after a rough couple of games or regain focus when getting to crunch time of a season.

Recognizing the players who are causing a poor team performance is really important, a forward on 6 rating could be caused by a midfielder on 6.4 as he's feeding off scraps.

If your having problems with set pieces then use Match Training Focus to get them through that period.

Substitutions are important to, whilst you might of planned to give a player a rest or a young player some game time you might need to get some fresh legs in defence, the more tired a player is the chance they lose concentration is increased.  They might of had a 7+ game so far but fresh legs and a fresh mind might help close games out.

[looping]

1 hour ago, summatsupeer said:

 

Do you tend to buy the same kind of players each save?  Do the players lack concentration?  Lack Determination? When recruiting/selling do you rule out players due to personality or focus more on attributes?

You've mentioned concentration but what about confidence? Sometimes i'm quite hard on the players, especially if I get mad after we lose a game we were dominating, other times when I recognize they were unlucky it takes some pressure off them (usually says something like "relieved".  

Natural Fitness is the way to tell how many games a player can cope with before they get the Needs Rest icon.  If you play 2 games a week very often then this is where you need good squad depth.  That will also allow you to let a player who is on form keep playing rather than having to decide "do I let this 2 star play again or put the 4.5 star back in?".

Team Meeting can be useful to bump up moral and confidence after a rough couple of games or regain focus when getting to crunch time of a season.

Recognizing the players who are causing a poor team performance is really important, a forward on 6 rating could be caused by a midfielder on 6.4 as he's feeding off scraps.

If your having problems with set pieces then use Match Training Focus to get them through that period.

Substitutions are important to, whilst you might of planned to give a player a rest or a young player some game time you might need to get some fresh legs in defence, the more tired a player is the chance they lose concentration is increased.  They might of had a 7+ game so far but fresh legs and a fresh mind might help close games out.

I usually play 442 or 4411. None of my six more defensive players (4 defenders+2 cm) have less than 12 in concentration. None of my players has less than 10 in determination absolutely never. This numbers change according to the level, if I'm playing with Milan determination minimum is 12 probably (it's only an exemple). But below 12 and 10 absolutely never.

When recruiting selling players I apply 2 "filters": first attributes and, if the player has the right attributes, he has to cross the second filter: personality. I will only buy the player if I read something like:

"We had a professional/determined squad an xxx would add to the professional/determined nature... ". Just an example, I hope you know what I mean.

It's weird, but, in one save, I wanted to sell one player because didn't fit in personality (selfish) and attributes. He was a striker playing poacher role. He scored 13 goals in the firs 17 games. I had another poacher with good attributes and personality who didn't score a single goal. 

During the first 20-30 games, my main focus is to mantain my players focused and not overconfident. That's why I talk to them assertive/aggressive, don't relax blablabla. When I lose a game I just tell them, don't worry bad luck or today was not our day. Mate, if we have won 9 of the last 10 games, what am I going to say?

Once the awful results start, I simply don't know what to say. I start with bad luck, because we are still doing well, and after 4-5 bad games aggressive embarrassing. Probably this is my mistake? I'm starting to think so...

Team meetings: If we are doing well, I encourage them to keep this way. If we are doing wrong, I tell them I expect to play better (don't know the exact translation). I also talk to my players privately. For instance, if one of my strikers doesn't score in a while i tell him: first, I have faith. If he doesn't score after 3-4 games, then I start more aggressive.

Fitness: Never one of my players will play if his sharpeness is not match fit. If he needs match sharpeness, I'll make him play the last 20-30 mins until he is fit. If a player needs a rest, he doesn't play.

Any player rating under 6.6 is substituted, unless I have strong reasons against it.

Match training. Yes I do that. If I'm conceding too much, I train defensive movements. If I conced from set pieces I train that. 

Any player under 70% fitness during the game is substituted, specially defensive ones.

[summatsupeer]

1 hour ago, looping said:

During the first 20-30 games, my main focus is to mantain my players focused and not overconfident. That's why I talk to them assertive/aggressive, don't relax blablabla. When I lose a game I just tell them, don't worry bad luck or today was not our day. Mate, if we have won 9 of the last 10 games, what am I going to say?

Once the awful results start, I simply don't know what to say. I start with bad luck, because we are still doing well, and after 4-5 bad games aggressive embarrassing. Probably this is my mistake? I'm starting to think so...

Was the loss actually bad luck?  I think after 4-5 games they've probably lost confidence rather than it being complacency that would warrant a wake up call.

There's no "selfish" personality, only determination is used in personality, the rest is made up of hidden attributes. "Pressure" is a very important part of personality when things start going wrong, you'll see it by the player being nervous in a match.  If you criticize and demand more from them they might not be able to deal with the extra pressure.  "Professionalism" is more about being able to cope with more workload and disciplined, but also will respect your feedback. Whilst you might not upset them that won't stop them feeling pressure from the situation.

12 isn't very good for top level.

[looping]

And how can I know "pressure" hidden attribute before signing a player? Scout reports? Never seen something like that.

Casually any team with any players where I am the manager have low levels of pressure hidden attribute? No, I think the problem is me. 

How can I know if a player is complacent? Only ass man reports? I have never seen this. Always motivated, nothing or listened blabla. Never seen something like complacent or similar.

How can I know if a player is under pressure and can't reach his top level? Ass man reports? Body language? When I see a player nervous (body language) I tell him calm.

Which exact words may indicate this situations? (pressured or complacent). I'll try to play the game in english because some translations don't seem to match with spanish words (look like google translations or i'm missunderstanding them, or both).

As I said atttributes depend on the level. If my team is Chelsea or Barcelona, minimum level is 14-15. In Vanarama Conference, 10 will be enough (never played this level).

Imagine the following. Your team is Everton. You are expected to end 8. After19 games, 15 won 3 draw 1 lost, 40 scored 9 conceded. You play against ManU and lose 3-0 (Ibra hattrick). You didn't play specially bad, that result is not very strange, you are having consistent good results and the problem in this match is that you couldn't stop Ibra headers (3 goals after crosses). How would you react? I would tell my players don't worry, let's focus on he following match (or something similar).

In the next game you play home against, let's say, Watford (bottom of the table). You see them sitting deep, so you try to unlock them the same way you did in previous matches against deep defending teams. You don't create chances, the opponent neither and in the last minute they score from a set piece and 0-1. 

In the next game, you play away, against West Ham, you score in your first chance, an then,in 20 minutes they score 3 goals. They are destroying your defense and whatever you try doesn't work. You see how a dlf is exploting the space between your defense and midfield. You try to reduce that space (dropping cm to dm strata or pushing higher up defense). Despite of that, you are destroyed with the opponent strikers moving into channels, even when they are tightly surrounded by 4 of your players. An inside pass, a 1-2 and they are in front of your keeper.

You  now conceded in 3 games almost the same goals than in the first 19.

How would you react in this situations?

 

I didn't say it before. Thanks for your answers. If you think I'm dissmissing something this is not my intention. Tell me please in this case because I'm not doing on purpose.

[summatsupeer]

This old-ish topic I think is still accurate, you can't get specifics but can get a general range of what the attributes are.

Assistant Manager report and in match Body Language.  I find it strange you never see "Complacent" mentioned in either of these, maybe it was translated from "over confident"?  If you have a professional team I guess its possible.  But then they might not have good pressure rating so i'd expect to see "Looks Nervous" in Body Language in matches.  

I'm not sure, there no "do x in y situation", sometimes i'll do things and get a negative reaction.  A lot of it is feel, is a players form dropping, are they playing sloppy, can I help tactically, are certain opponents just on fire?  

On my Man Utd save i've just lost 4 games in 6 (cup vs arsenal, league vs stoke, man city and arsenal) only beating Norwich and Sevila, we then won the next 3 including Barcelona in CL Qtr.  Stoke scored 2 in first 5 minutes, players were losing individual battles and just all over the place.  First Arsenal game my defence and de gea were all over the place, second game vs arsenal we were clearly the better team, I responded differently to both results even though I was annoyed we'd lost against a rival. My response to the second loss (the last of that bad run) was a "Unlucky" one, then a Team Meeting to boost morale (something like "we have the quality to turn things around").  The simplest thing you can do if your team starts badly is to lower the risk they play with (mentality) and get men behind the ball.  Make a sub or two in first half if needed, then if the play starts to improve maybe go back to the plan.

 

[isignedupfornorealreason]

4 hours ago, looping said:

In the next game, you play away, against West Ham, you score in your first chance, an then,in 20 minutes they score 3 goals. They are destroying your defense and whatever you try doesn't work. You see how a dlf is exploting the space between your defense and midfield. You try to reduce that space (dropping cm to dm strata or pushing higher up defense). Despite of that, you are destroyed with the opponent strikers moving into channels, even when they are tightly surrounded by 4 of your players. An inside pass, a 1-2 and they are in front of your keeper.

Yeah, I know the feeling, I see that sort of thing a lot in my United save, especially against teams that play a 4-2-3-1 with lots of players forward. It becomes something of a balancing act for me, of finding where the line is placed, in order to put bodies on the box to stop the 'top heavy' opposition from splitting the defence, *and* preventing crosses because of the good old 'swing in to the back post' thing.

I even struggle vs teams that do this even though they are say, League 1/2 standard. - Sometimes I get it right, sometimes I don't. When I don't, it can be a heavy, ridiculous defeat. My instinct is to shut up shop, but sometimes that can invite more pressure and cause more headaches. My latest method of dealing with it, is to go defensive, but to close down more anyway, at least in away games, where they're more adventurous. (and for some reason, play better, though I dare say the ME makes it look 'better' when really they're just taking more risks, I don't know.)  

But, basically, don't give up. And keep trying.

[Feddo]

I wonder what you do with your save after those games? You've mentioned that after 20-30 games you allways start to concede a lot, but don't talk about how long that will continue. That gives me the idea you stop at that point, or is that a to simple conclusion?

The reason I ask because I've had to longlasting saves (15+yrs) and allmost every year I'm in I will have a couple of back to back games I loose. Sometimes its just two, but sometimes its a serie of 4-7 games without winning. Current save my last season I concede 60% in that serie.

My first long save in 15 it took me 3 years before I finally figured out how I needed to react in games. That was also the first save where I got to the point of being at a club for three years. I think you might just need to hang in there for a little while and see every loss as a learning experience  

[looping]

2 hours ago, Feddo said:

I wonder what you do with your save after those games? You've mentioned that after 20-30 games you allways start to concede a lot, but don't talk about how long that will continue. That gives me the idea you stop at that point, or is that a to simple conclusion?

The reason I ask because I've had to longlasting saves (15+yrs) and allmost every year I'm in I will have a couple of back to back games I loose. Sometimes its just two, but sometimes its a serie of 4-7 games without winning. Current save my last season I concede 60% in that serie.

My first long save in 15 it took me 3 years before I finally figured out how I needed to react in games. That was also the first save where I got to the point of being at a club for three years. I think you might just need to hang in there for a little while and see every loss as a learning experience  

I keep playing, trying to fix the problem, but most of the times I'm sacked sooner or later because in the next season bad results continue. I mean, after that 20-30 absolutely never see my players doing well. In my last save, I played 3 seasons, step by step getting worse and worse, after 20 games unbeaten. I stopped playing that save because it was obvius I was on a highway to sack. In other saves, I'm sacked, directly, For instance, my save with Milan I lost 10 of the last 12 games,. I was unbeaten until that moment.

So, no, I don't stop playing when the first bad games come. Outrageous conceding never stops. This is what makes me think that I get caught by a couple of bad results and can't walk out.

 

 

[looping]

14 hours ago, isignedupfornorealreason said:

Yeah, I know the feeling, I see that sort of thing a lot in my United save, especially against teams that play a 4-2-3-1 with lots of players forward. It becomes something of a balancing act for me, of finding where the line is placed, in order to put bodies on the box to stop the 'top heavy' opposition from splitting the defence, *and* preventing crosses because of the good old 'swing in to the back post' thing.

I even struggle vs teams that do this even though they are say, League 1/2 standard. - Sometimes I get it right, sometimes I don't. When I don't, it can be a heavy, ridiculous defeat. My instinct is to shut up shop, but sometimes that can invite more pressure and cause more headaches. My latest method of dealing with it, is to go defensive, but to close down more anyway, at least in away games, where they're more adventurous. (and for some reason, play better, though I dare say the ME makes it look 'better' when really they're just taking more risks, I don't know.)  

But, basically, don't give up. And keep trying.

I'll try some of your ideas and let you know.

Thanks to everybody who answered, Even the ones who deleted their messages after posting.

[looping]

17 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

This old-ish topic I think is still accurate, you can't get specifics but can get a general range of what the attributes are.

Assistant Manager report and in match Body Language.  I find it strange you never see "Complacent" mentioned in either of these, maybe it was translated from "over confident"?  If you have a professional team I guess its possible.  But then they might not have good pressure rating so i'd expect to see "Looks Nervous" in Body Language in matches.  

I'm not sure, there no "do x in y situation", sometimes i'll do things and get a negative reaction.  A lot of it is feel, is a players form dropping, are they playing sloppy, can I help tactically, are certain opponents just on fire?  

On my Man Utd save i've just lost 4 games in 6 (cup vs arsenal, league vs stoke, man city and arsenal) only beating Norwich and Sevila, we then won the next 3 including Barcelona in CL Qtr.  Stoke scored 2 in first 5 minutes, players were losing individual battles and just all over the place.  First Arsenal game my defence and de gea were all over the place, second game vs arsenal we were clearly the better team, I responded differently to both results even though I was annoyed we'd lost against a rival. My response to the second loss (the last of that bad run) was a "Unlucky" one, then a Team Meeting to boost morale (something like "we have the quality to turn things around").  The simplest thing you can do if your team starts badly is to lower the risk they play with (mentality) and get men behind the ball.  Make a sub or two in first half if needed, then if the play starts to improve maybe go back to the plan.

 

Thanks. I'll try it and let you know. Keep an eye here because I'll expose my new experiencies.

[Bunkerossian]

I believe I consistently suffer from players putting less effort in the league than in Europe. Just like the OP, I know I have better players, and the season starts well enough, but during the season, slumps in form occur, and it has the same pattern- if the opposition score, my team is shell shocked, and despite team talks during the match, I rarely, if ever, turn things around. Plus, the opposition GK gets a cheat-like boost in confidence. But for any position, there seems to be an opposition player who has a game far beyond his abilities when he plays against me. Every 4-5 games. I still won the league and 2 cups, but some defeats have left me baffled.

[superdave]

May sound silly, but about my 5th season in my current career, I set my training to emphasize defending.  Try that when you start conceding.

[looping]

34 minutes ago, superdave said:

May sound silly, but about my 5th season in my current career, I set my training to emphasize defending.  Try that when you start conceding.

No silly, any idea is completely welcome, specially if it makes sense and this is the case. Thanks, I'll try it again (because I already did it) in combination with other ideas.

[HUNT3R]

9 hours ago, superdave said:

May sound silly, but about my 5th season in my current career, I set my training to emphasize defending.  Try that when you start conceding.

If you're talking about Team Training, that only trains attributes. So in the long run they will defend "better" as individuals, but that's purely because they have better attributes. The tactic will obviously also play a huge role in how well your team as a unit defends.

[looping]

Can I make a question not directly related to the subject of the thread?

I don't want you, mods, saying I'm chopping. If you are going to close my thread for that reason, just tell me and I won't post anything.

[herne79]

Unless people complain, I won't close the thread for that reason.

[looping]

It sounds like a threat so I better not post anything.

Hope you don't delete your own message this time.

[herne79]

No threat, just a simple statement and exactly the same thing that I would say to anyone asking that question.

That's now twice you've mentioned me deleting my own post so I guess you are wondering why.  Simply because when I read it back I didn't think it added anything particularly new to the conversation.

[looping]

2 hours ago, herne79 said:

No threat, just a simple statement and exactly the same thing that I would say to anyone asking that question.

That's now twice you've mentioned me deleting my own post so I guess you are wondering why.  Simply because when I read it back I didn't think it added anything particularly new to the conversation.

I was experiencing problems with an am&striker pairing. I think I have already fixed it. Let you know, if you are interested. Thanks anyway.

I have no interest on why you deleted your post. The post itself was interesting despite I couldn't read it in the necessary depth.

[looping]

 

I started a new save, with a different team I never used before, PSG. I thought it would be easy to identify if the problem was me or my players.

I have to say that I must assume that the only problem is me, because I experiencied the same pattern, despite I won the title. After 22 games, exactly, results dropped dramatically. It's obvius I'm consistently doing something wrong and I can't identify it.

After almost one year playing, I think it's time to admit that I failed miserably with fm16 and give up playing until the 17 version is released. I'll come back with new energies and, I hope, a bit more of luck.

Thanks to all who attempted to help. Yes, all. Despite everything. Some know what I'm talking about.

See you soon and thanks again.

[alexhcfc]

On 24/09/2016 at 00:10, herne79 said:

AI managers don't suss you out.  But they are very good at adapting how they play against you based on your success and reputation.  So whilst initially you may perhaps have been enjoying space the opposition gave you because they possibly played in a more open manner, now they might have tightened things up to deny you that space.  They have possibly adapted, thus you may need to as well.

So they suss you out...

[herne79]

32 minutes ago, alexhcfc said:

So they suss you out...

No.  They don't suss out your tactical system and adapt their's accordingly, which is the point at hand.  That doesn't happen.

What they understand is your reputation and/or how successful you are being and therefore adapt how they may play against you based on that.  So if you are Man Utd and they are Burnley, they may line up against you in a more defensive manner.  Whereas if you are Plymouth Argyle they may be more attacking against you.  

They're not sussing you out because of your tactic, they're adapting because of who you are - which is completely different.

[looping]

20 hours ago, alexhcfc said:

So they suss you out...

 

20 hours ago, herne79 said:

No.  They don't suss out your tactical system and adapt their's accordingly, which is the point at hand.  That doesn't happen.

What they understand is your reputation and/or how successful you are being and therefore adapt how they may play against you based on that.  So if you are Man Utd and they are Burnley, they may line up against you in a more defensive manner.  Whereas if you are Plymouth Argyle they may be more attacking against you.  

They're not sussing you out because of your tactic, they're adapting because of who you are - which is completely different.

 

I don't know if they suss out our tactical systems, but, if that was true, what's wrong with it? Managers all day try to do that. If they are just adapting it's because the ME has its own limitations.

In spite of it all, I can't beat the ME, so it seems I have bigger limitations

[looping]

I know I said I wouldn't play anymore but I couldn't.... 

I'm on a new save and after 10 games I can clearly identify the disaster is coming. First 10 games, 8-1-1, 15 scored 6 conceded. My team is Malaga. I made some transfers (I started the save on March to have some time to build my team) and I'm expected to end 12.

My tactic is the following:

Structured, counter, push higher up, play out the defence.

gk

fb-su cd-de cd-de fb-su

wm-at cm-de cm-su wm-at

 -----------------am-su

-----------------poacher

PI: gk roll it out, less risky passes, pass shorter

wm-at: both, run wide, cross from byline.

am-su close down more

During my first 10 games my poacher didn't play well (6.6 rating and only scored 2 goals, despite being expected to be my main goal threat). I've been tweaking my tactic during matches succesfully. For instance, against defensive teams I changed shape to fluid (enough to unlock them).

Last 2 games i lost 0-1 and 1-0 against 2 weak teams. I can identify the disaster is coming not because the results, but because I conceded 1 goal in every one of the last 4 games. This is how everything starts: conceding 1 goal per game, then 2 and then I'm sacked.

After the first 0-1 I told my players unacceptable. The same after the second game. Their reaction is "fired up", "seemed motivated", one of my players looked in deep thought and another looked stressed.

The first game we conceded an stupid goal. Opponent winger tried to cross and accidentally scored. Second game I conceeded from a cross. I had ccc and half chances (1-4) per game. The opponent had 1 ccc in each game.

I've detected some lack of pressing so I ticked close down more (this is an usual tweak during matches so probably my main tactic needs more closing down). Also changed mentality to defensive and I have an af instead of a poacher.

My next 2 games are against Madrid and Barcelona, so i'm probably going to lose both. This will result in 4 games lost in a row.

What could I do?

[Ceching You Out]

I don't want to make a sweeping generalization, but I think part of your issue is simply how you're interpreting the series of results. For a long stretch (whether it's 10 or 20 or 30 games) you're outperforming your team's ability. Because those results are unsustainable, you inevitably pick up a few losses. A few losses in a row is hardly surprising even for the best teams because form and luck can vary. Similarly, giving up a goal in four games straight is statistically meaningless. Look at the average goals conceded per game in any of your top leagues. You should expect dips in form and periods where consistent clean sheets are impossible.

That said, the notable thing here is your inability to pull out of the nosedive. Without breaking down your team talks and morale game by game, my instinct is that you're riding a decent tactic that exploits an over aggressive opponent, generating success, and positive morale snowballs. Once your opponents become a little more defensive or cautious so you lose your tactical edge, an unlucky result or two goes against you, and then you compound your team's misery with disruptive team talks.

[looping]

Thanks for your answer.

I agree with you with almost everything you say. I think the most important mistake I make are my team talks. I'm trying to find out why.

I've just discovered a likely reason. 

"Assertive" is translated to spanish in the game as "asertivo". This is a totally wrong translation that leads to missunderstanding. In english, "assertive" means forceful and should be translated to spanish "tajante" or "firme", NOT "asertivo".

"Asertivo" in spanish means a communication strategy that is located in the middle of two opposite behaviors: passivity and aggressiveness.

I'm starting to think this is my problem. Fm contains google translations which don't allow me to make informed decisions.

[herne79]

@looping If you believe you have found a problem with translation, please raise them in the Translation Issues forum https://community.sigames.com/forum/330-translation-issues/.  Thanks.

[looping]

53 minutes ago, herne79 said:

@looping If you believe you have found a problem with translation, please raise them in the Translation Issues forum https://community.sigames.com/forum/330-translation-issues/.  Thanks.

Done.

[looping]

I have just played a complete season with Malaga. Final position 5. This is a very good result, BUT

I scored 75 goals and conceded 47. This is just the opposite of what I'm trying. How is that posible using this tactic:

Defensive, Structured, Play out the defence, push higher up, close down more.

gk.de

fb-su cd-de cd-de fb-su

wm-at cm-de cm-su wm-at

dlf-su af-at

My best players are my two cb. I have two very good fb and 2 hardworking central midfielders. I'm not a good attacking team. I'm the fu... top scorer of the league (among normal teams), more goals only Barcelona and Madrid. Why on earth this can happen? Why my defense is so absolutely terrible? Why my strikers are like messi and neymar? How is that posible? Why I conced in every game (2 clean sheets in all the league). I'm on defensive+structured. How the hell is that posible?

[AndySummers]

It is difficult to draw general conclusions without seeing how you are conceding; you are the best judge of this. If your end goal is to tighten up defensively, it would be worth contemplating that you are still playing quite aggressively. Although you have toned down the overall mentality, defensive doesn't mean you are playing defensively. You are asking your defence to push higher up and combining that with your players aggressively chasing down the opponent in possession (which will leave spaces against teams good enough to work around the press and also result in your players having guidance to roam outside of their structured shape to chase possession). In addition, both wingers are playing aggressively in possession, which will offer a goalscoring threat, but potentially leave them up the pitch and exposed to a counter when you lose possession. And there is no dedicated screen in front of your defence, despite the CM(d). If the midfield screen is moving out of position to close down opponents, potentially that is then causing your defenders to step out of position to deal with exposed threats.

In some ways you are almost playing like Leicester, bar the instruction to 'push higher up'; potentially ceding possession to the opponent, closing down the opponent strongly, looking to hit on the break. And Ranieri's remit ensured he had a team that scored goals in number, yet also conceded frequently.

Are you being beaten by balls over the top?

Is your defensive line losing shape?

Are clever, technical teams/players working around your press?

Are your wings left exposed to the counter?

All things (and more) which you could consider to help you tighten up. This is not to say your instructions are 'wrong' per se, but if you want a solid defence first and foremost, you are not necessarily primed to achieve that.

[looping]

20 minutes ago, AndySummers said:

It is difficult to draw general conclusions without seeing how you are conceding; you are the best judge of this. If your end goal is to tighten up defensively, it would be worth contemplating that you are still playing quite aggressively. Although you have toned down the overall mentality, defensive doesn't mean you are playing defensively. You are asking your defence to push higher up and combining that with your players aggressively chasing down the opponent in possession (which will leave spaces against teams good enough to work around the press and also result in your players having guidance to roam outside of their structured shape to chase possession). In addition, both wingers are playing aggressively in possession, which will offer a goalscoring threat, but potentially leave them up the pitch and exposed to a counter when you lose possession. And there is no dedicated screen in front of your defence, despite the CM(d). If the midfield screen is moving out of position to close down opponents, potentially that is then causing your defenders to step out of position to deal with exposed threats.

In some ways you are almost playing like Leicester, bar the instruction to 'push higher up'; potentially ceding possession to the opponent, closing down the opponent strongly, looking to hit on the break. And Ranieri's remit ensured he had a team that scored goals in number, yet also conceded frequently.

Are you being beaten by balls over the top?

Is your defensive line losing shape?

Are clever, technical teams/players working around your press?

Are your wings left exposed to the counter?

All things (and more) which you could consider to help you tighten up. This is not to say your instructions are 'wrong' per se, but if you want a solid defence first and foremost, you are not necessarily primed to achieve that.

With Defensive+Structured I try to tell my players to focus on defending. I'm almost telling them we are frightened! Push higher is just to reduce the space between def and mid. Close down more is the only way I found to make my players defend. Otherwise, they just watch how the opponent scores.

There is no pattern on conceding. Everywhere in anyway you can imagine. It's like it was scripted I have to conced. Many many matches I win 2-1, they create 1 chance (an stupid deep cross, for instance) and score. Then I easily score 2 or 3. I'm not conceding from counters or fast transitions, the problem is positional defense. I think the main problem is when the opponent starts moving the ball in front of my box. My 2 stupids cm (specially the cm-su) just watch, do nothing, don't help my cb. They are 2 hardworking players than can even play as cb. They are not creative, they are defensive midfielders, good at takcling, aggression, marking, bravery. I don't understand why they are not moving.

I went even on contain mentality and nothing changed.

IMO roles and duties are balanced and my best players are defensive ones so I would expect to have problems scoring not conceding.

[summatsupeer]

16 hours ago, looping said:

I have just played a complete season with Malaga. Final position 5. This is a very good result, BUT

I scored 75 goals and conceded 47. This is just the opposite of what I'm trying. How is that posible using this tactic:

Defensive, Structured, Play out the defence, push higher up, close down more.

gk.de

fb-su cd-de cd-de fb-su

wm-at cm-de cm-su wm-at

dlf-su af-at

My best players are my two cb. I have two very good fb and 2 hardworking central midfielders. I'm not a good attacking team. I'm the fu... top scorer of the league (among normal teams), more goals only Barcelona and Madrid. Why on earth this can happen? Why my defense is so absolutely terrible? Why my strikers are like messi and neymar? How is that posible? Why I conced in every game (2 clean sheets in all the league). I'm on defensive+structured. How the hell is that posible?

It's impossible to say for sure without checking the type of goals & assists, then watching the goals back.

I agreed with AndySummers, your playing low risk but leaving 2 men upfront, they may drop deeper and help pick up opponents defensive midfielders but if your opponents have a player sat between your defence and midfield there's no one positioned to directly stop them.

Are your players as good as you think at the type of defending required?  Are you gaining leads as teams attack you forcing them to throw even more at you creating high scoring games?

[looping]

3 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

It's impossible to say for sure without checking the type of goals & assists, then watching the goals back.

I agreed with AndySummers, your playing low risk but leaving 2 men upfront, they may drop deeper and help pick up opponents defensive midfielders but if your opponents have a player sat between your defence and midfield there's no one positioned to directly stop them.

Are your players as good as you think at the type of defending required?  Are you gaining leads as teams attack you forcing them to throw even more at you creating high scoring games?

You'l see how fm says I'm conceding from through balls but I this is not what I see. Most of the goals are not through balls, understanding them as long pass over the top. Goals come from passes in front of my box and my two cm watching how my cb struggle.

In case that my problem is my defense too high, how can I reduce the space between defense and midfield without pushing higher? 

[herne79]

Could you please post the same picture again, but this time with the "Assist Location" tab selected?

[looping]

This?

[herne79]

Yes, thanks.

First of all, to finish 5th in the league with Malaga having scored 75 goals is outstanding.  Clearly the way you have set up to attack the opposition has worked wonders, you should be proud.

Now, conceding 47 goals which is the issue at hand.  First and foremost, you are playing as Malaga who are expected to finish mid-table.  You don't have the worst players but they're not the best either.  Don't overlook the quality of your players, especially in defence which is where your problem lies.  Perhaps investing in defenders with better relevant attributes would be a good starting point.

It's good to see you are not conceding from crosses, but through balls / balls over the top is the issue, both of which are seemingly called "through balls" from the game's own definition.  Again this may come down (in part) to player quality.  I doubt the def line would have much impact - defensive mentality + higher def line still isn't very high, but closing down plus the gap to midfield may cause central defenders to run out and close down an opponent leaving dangerous gaps behind.  Perhaps giving both central defenders a PI of close down less may help counteract the team instruction, or even giving one of them a cover duty.

Overall I don't think you are far off.  Good job.

[looping]

Investing in defenders is what I did. I have 2 cb which are good at marking, tackling, agression, bravery, anticipation, heading, jump... (around 15 all this attributes, which is very good for my level). The only problem with them is that they aren't paced (around 12 pace and acceleration). i didn't think this was an issue because my def line was quite deep, so balls over the top were not an expected problem.

My two fb have the gets forward whenever posible PPM. I payed a lot of attention to this, because I didn't want to overcommit them and get caught on the counter. Right side didn't bother me because I have my cm-de there to cover. Left side is quite open because my fb gets forward and cm-su helps atacking. With that said, do you think my fb can cause my defending problems? (I don't think so...) Anyway, a more conservative role (dlp-su, for instance) instead of a cm-su may help my defense? He is already my creator and is not an special goal threat.

I say again, what I see as a problem is when the opponent stars short passing in front of my box my cm do NOT help my cb. It seems to me a lack of screening.

 

[herne79]

Personally I don't really like too much Aggression in my central defenders when there is nobody positioned at DMC.  I find it makes the defenders even more willing than normal to step up and out of position.  Aggressive players want to get stuck into the action, which isn't always a good idea for a central defender.

In terms of your CMs not helping the CDs, it's kind of a double edged sword here.  On the one hand you have great attacking play (75 goals!) but you also feel you need a better defensive shield - which might negatively impact your attacking play if you change things too much.  A simple "Hold Position" PI might work.  Alternatively perhaps a change of role (as you mention a DLP or perhaps a BBM) or even just a change in personnel (perhaps a harder working player with better PPMs?)  It's experimentation I'm afraid.

[summatsupeer]

Totally agree with herne79.   Even if your best players are your defensive ones, how good are they compared to the rest of the league?  Now you've finished 5th teams might not play so risky against you and leave so much space so can you repeat the success?  You say you want to be "defensive" but defensive mentality just means low risk, you've then got two forwards so its your GK + 4 + 4 who will be defending near the box, are they truly good enough to do that against the attacking players the league has? 

The forwards can pressure opposing defenders / DM's but won't help much around your box, the only way to do that is to move one to a deeper defensive position.  How many teams, even big clubs play variations of 451 so they can have 9/10 instead of 8/10 contribute to defending deep positions.  4141 is the obvious formation to fix the space between your CBs and CMs but that will change your attack completely.  4411 is basically a 442 but with one of the forwards dropping deeper so the CM's don't need to step up as much, and the now lone forward isn't too isolated unless the AM gets dragged deeper.  It's up to you if you want to change it when its got you so many results.

[looping]

I get what you say but, again, what surprises me is that my, let's say, 6 "defensive" players (4 defenders+2 cm) are better than average in the league.Even my two wm are decent defensively and better than average.

I wouldn't care if I had defensive problems against big sides which have better players. I mean, imagine first 8 games I conced 3 goals. Next 2 games are against Barcelona and Madrid. I lose both matches 5-0 and 0-5. Stats will say I conceeded 13 goals in 10 games, but I wouldn't be worried. This can happen against sides that are much better than you (I could thing about why I lost both matches, but that's not the point now).

This is not what's happening in this save. The problem is that I only managed to keep a few clean sheets, and never conceded more than 3 goals. So, I consistently conced against any team. Even the worst ones.

There is no pattern in terms of sides who score me because I conceed against everybody. The big sides simply smash me and the small ones, well, I usually beat them but 2-1 3-1, always conceding one goal, at least.

That's why I think the problem is not the quality of my defenders. I'll try what herne said about close down less PI to my cb, but i'm afraid the problem is the screening offered by my 2 cm,which, as I have said, are two hard working ones, and specially, the problem is my cm-su who loses positions and doesn't track back as expected. And it is not the player, because whoever plays there does the same: not closing down, not tracking back and losing position. I will also try with a more conservative role there and drop them to dmc, and tell the one on support to get further forward.

Edit: 
I forgot. Dropping one of my strikers to amc I think would disrupt my attacking. My classic goal is pass to my dlf-su who holds the ball and passes to one of my players running past him so the only option that comes to my mind is dropping my af to a ss for instance but I'm afraid to change anything of my four attacking players. If it's working, don't touch it...

In addition my experiencies with amc-striker parntership are not succesful...

[summatsupeer]

14 hours ago, looping said:

I get what you say but, again, what surprises me is that my, let's say, 6 "defensive" players (4 defenders+2 cm) are better than average in the league.Even my two wm are decent defensively and better than average.

...

That's why I think the problem is not the quality of my defenders.

...

but i'm afraid the problem is the screening offered by my 2 cm,which, as I have said, are two hard working ones, and specially, the problem is my cm-su who loses positions and doesn't track back as expected. And it is not the player, because whoever plays there does the same: not closing down, not tracking back and losing position. I will also try with a more conservative role there and drop them to dmc, and tell the one on support to get further forward.

...

The problem here is were being quite generic and relying on your opinion on the player and what attributes are important.  

For example I think i've been undervaluing Marking in my CM-D. I've just bought Kranevitter who has better marking than any holding player i've had before. He's performing better than players I thought should do better in the role, the main thing I spotted is his tracking of runners.  Working hard is good but they need to be working hard doing the right things.

[looping]

3 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

The problem here is were being quite generic and relying on your opinion on the player and what attributes are important.  

For example I think i've been undervaluing Marking in my CM-D. I've just bought Kranevitter who has better marking than any holding player i've had before. He's performing better than players I thought should do better in the role, the main thing I spotted is his tracking of runners.  Working hard is good but they need to be working hard doing the right things.

I have  3 guys for 2 positions cm-de cm-su. What do you think about their attributes?

Edit: Is this what you were asking?