Like Paul Lambert, but better

[beverage1982]

There’s a tactical conundrum that’s been bugging me since FM14 and continues to bug me so far in the Beta of FM15.I'm no slouch and can create a decent tactic, but this is a very specific, very difficult challenge that I must conquer.

Now first up I feel like I need to put in a disclaimer:

Yes I know this is a fool’s errand. Yes I know Villa have lost six on the trot scoring only once and playing some of the most boring football committed to a pitch. But when they work, there’s something about Paul Lambert’s tactics that really appeal to me - direct football, hardworking pressing in the right areas of the pitch and lightning fast counter attacks.

That’s why I’ve been tinkering for two years in an attempt to replicate them, then improve on them. But after some crumbs of success (and entire loafs of failure) I feel the need to reach out and ask for help. So here goes…

The tactic

After tinkering with formations during his stay at Norwich Paul Lambert’s approach at Villa has been focussed on re-creating some of the lessons he learned during his days at Dortmund. I’ve been reading a lot of tactical articles from the likes of Michael Cox on what his team does (when it plays well) and have distilled those lessons below:

- Midfield use clever pressing. Harassing opponents when they come into their zone (i.e. halfway line)

- Fluidity. Lots of articles written about Lambert’s desire to offload specialists and bring in all round players.

- Verticality. The team focuses on lightning fast counter attacks.

- Defensive line pushes up to condense play into a smaller lower block.

Shape

In terms of shape Villa consistently play a 433/451. Benteke is the lone striker, a big beast of a targetman who can hold up the ball. He’s supported by wide forwards in the form of Gabby Agbonlahor and Andi Weiman. Gabby tends to start on the left and get closer to support Benteke, Weiman on the right still gets in the area but stays deeper and wider.

The midfield 3. Fabian Delph is the heartbeat of the team. A B2B or roaming playmaker. Ashley Westood is the solid defensive midfielder - all interceptions and sensible passing. Then there’s new boy Tom Cleverley who seems to be trying to find his identity at the club but there’s a sense we’re looking for him to be a hardworking addition to the three who gets forward a little more often.

In defence it’s pretty simple. Two solid centrebacks and two hardworking fullbacks. Though Lambert does demand a lot of his fullbacks who often provide the width in the team.

My approach

Now here’s how I translate that to FM. (apologies for lack fo pictures. I’m at work.)

GK (D)

Wb (s) – CB (D) – CB(D) – Wb (s)

DM (D)

WM (A) – ? – RP / B2B (s) – WM (A)

TM

Counter

Fluid

Team Instructions: More direct passing, Whipped crosses, Pass into space, Push up.

Individual instructions

WM – both have cut inside. One on Left has get further forward.

Midfielders – All have close down more.

The problems

Firstly I don’t have a clue what to do with Tom Cleverley. Delph is great as a Roaming Playmaker and in a Lambert tactic we have no real attacking midfielder so I’d play Cleverley as a CM (s) or B2B.

But I’m trying to improve on Lambert’s tactic which means I should be looking for a more attacking role.

Second whilst we’re tight at the back and nick the occasional goal on the break, the football is predictably boring to watch and whilst I can comfortably land mid-table we’re not going to pull up any trees. That means whilst I’m replicating Lambert’s tactic, I’m not improving on it which is my aim.

The solutions

This is when I need your help. What should I do? I’d love to ditch the project but for some reason I simply can’t.

I’m thinking of switching to an attacking mentality and setting counterattacking team instructions (drop deeper, close down less, play narrower) to encourage more of an adventurous counter attack.(I've seen this on the forum before and when I've experimented with it I've seen a lot less stodgy passing and a lot more fun counter attacking.)

Or perhaps I simply try to add some more creativity to the team as it is? Perhaps using Tom Cleverley as a creative link in midfield?

But like Paul Lambert I seem to be completely devoid of solutions so before I go greyer than Roy Keane's beard can anyone save me from this bizarre slice of hell that I seem to have carved myself?

[herne79]

I like the idea of loafs of failure .

A few thoughts:

- Rather than whipped crosses, how about floated crosses? Might give your players a little more time to get forward to support attacks?

- I've personally had better form with push higher counter tactics when I move the DM up to the MC line

- If you want a more attacking midfield role, then either give the CM (s) a PI of get forward more, or change him to a CM (a)? I use a CM(s) in a very fluid tactic at the moment and he's often further forward than my strikers

- You already have a roaming playmaker which I think should give you a decent creative link already. Any more and you will start to move away from bringing in well rounded players rather than specialists

Nothing revolutionary there but from the sounds of it that's not what you're after anyway.

[THOG]

This is a really excellent thread. I like Lambert. He's been dealt a series of poor hands at Villa, but he's done well and their counterattacking play is fantastic.

Before I got to your solutions, I was already thinking of something along what you said. A Control mentality with the defensive block set deeper but perhaps offset by higher closing down settings to preserve the urgency and physicality of Villa's defending. Higher tempo will also help promote faster transitions.

Who are you playing as the rightback? Lowton seems to cross from deep a lot, so in his case, FB(S) with "Cross More" might come closer to how he's been used recently.

[Taleron]

This is good stuff, actually similar to how I try to set up my tactics. I like the idea of higher mentality with counterattacking team instructions, I think THoG's Liverpool "Plan A" example from the FM14 Mentality Ladder thread shows how that can work. I would guess that accounting for how a higher mentality shortens defender passing would help with the transitions; so this would be expanding the range of a CB or the DM with a role change or some PIs.

[beverage1982]

This is a really excellent thread. I like Lambert. He's been dealt a series of poor hands at Villa, but he's done well and their counterattacking play is fantastic.

Before I got to your solutions, I was already thinking of something along what you said. A Control mentality with the defensive block set deeper but perhaps offset by higher closing down settings to preserve the urgency and physicality of Villa's defending. Higher tempo will also help promote faster transitions.

Who are you playing as the rightback? Lowton seems to cross from deep a lot, so in his case, FB(S) with "Cross More" might come closer to how he's been used recently.

1) I think this is definitely the way I'm going to go. Perhaps Control mentality with Drop deeper, direct passing, higher tempo, early crosses and more disciplined TI's? Also in terms of closing down would you suggest keeping it individually set or perhaps going for a team wide 'Close Down More?

2) I've been using Lowton (despite the Hutton renaissance I still really like him) so will definitely experiment dropping him to FB (s) the same with Cissoko on the other flank.

Thanks for the help.

[beverage1982]

This is good stuff, actually similar to how I try to set up my tactics. I like the idea of higher mentality with counterattacking team instructions, I think THoG's Liverpool "Plan A" example from the FM14 Mentality Ladder thread shows how that can work. I would guess that accounting for how a higher mentality shortens defender passing would help with the transitions; so this would be expanding the range of a CB or the DM with a role change or some PIs.

When you say changing the role are you thinking I'll need the DM to come a pick the ball up from the defenders? It just so happens that in Ashley Westwood I have a player who's ideal for the DLP (d) role so could perhaps put him there, I'm just worried he'd then bypass the rest of my midfield?

[Letissier1980]

Hi bev,

If you don't mind my 2 pennies, I would change bent eke to a complete forward support. I see him as a bit more than just a target man and may add a bit more dynamism up front. Could Westwood be more of a deep lying playmaker? Initiating moves from the dm position? I would play cleverley as an CMA and Delph as a B2b but maybe change the WM on the site of the CMA to a support duty. I don't know if that will change how you want your tactical emphasis to change how you want, but it may work.

I myself am playing 2015 with Hyde in vanarama north.

Gk d

Fb. A

Cd. D

Cd. D

Fb. S

Dm. D

W. S

Cm. a

B2b. S

Wm. A

Cf. s

Standard

Rigid ( can't remember what it is in 15 again )

Good luck

[Letissier1980]

Hi hand of god,

What would be gained from changing to the control mentality from counter?. I'm guessing with the shouts you suggested the team will still be deep to counter into space, but I'm guessing the players will be quicker to get forward as their mentalities will be higher? Also will it mean that they will play wider?

[thatlastbiliousbead]

Hey Beverage, great thread. Thought I'd chime in as I've managed to save my job by shifting to three in the middle (and who doesn't love Lambert the player!)

I try and instill a style through roles alone and much like your formation my attacks are dominated down the right as my most creative players are there.

I've found the following to be very solid in defence and although my creativity is primarily from the AMC I'm sure you can tweak it to suit your players.

The central midfielder on the right offers great coverage for the complete wing back, and the deep lying playmaker collects from the ball playing defender.

Both of these mids sit in front on the back four when not in possession which releases the box to box to press the opposition all across the middle.

GK - Goalkeeper, defend

DR - Complete wing back, attack

DCR - Central defender, cover

DCL - Ball playing defender, stopper

DL - Full back, support

MCR - Central midfielder, defend

MC - Box to box midfielder, automatic

MCL - Deep lying playmaker, support

AMC - Advanced playmaker, attack

STCR - Deep lying forward, support

STCL - Advanced forward, attack

[CityAndColour]

Presumably he means support as it's the only mentality available for that role.

[deserter]

There are specialist players that are only good enough for a single job. (I love them.)

Then there are specialist that can do anything, but are really good at something specific. (Love them even more.)

I would like to think that Lambert would simply love to have the latter kind of specialists, if he could get some. Someone like Di Maria for example. Good at everything, but simply brilliant in dribbling. As opposed to Gervinho, a brilliant dribbler but otherwise quite frustrating.

So, my advice is to get a couple of key players in your attacking positions. All-rounders, except for being exceptioonally good at something.

Things to try out tactically: much higher tempo, more direct passing for your central midfielders only, attacking mentality with restraining TI's like drop much deeper.

All to make your transition more "zippy", the last one to also make defending a bit more aggressive. There's of course a balance to be found between trying to make something happen right away and actually making things happen as fast as possible.

[Taleron]

When you say changing the role are you thinking I'll need the DM to come a pick the ball up from the defenders? It just so happens that in Ashley Westwood I have a player who's ideal for the DLP (d) role so could perhaps put him there, I'm just worried he'd then bypass the rest of my midfield?

Adding "More Direct Passing" and maybe "More Risky Passes" to the DM(d) would help; at least More Direct Passing just to help start some counter attacks. But I would see how it plays first, I think the worry would be that your defenders and defensive midfielder (under shorter passing that happens on higher mentalities) won't get it into the attack quickly enough to take advantage of space, so some individual passing length increases may be needed.

[beverage1982]

Thanks to everyone for your help so far. Glad to be able to bounce ideas of the tactical hive mind so that I don't go insane.

Picking up some of your advice I've decided to experiment with something like this.

Guzan (GK D)

Lowton(FB S)---Vlaar(Cb D)---Senderos(CB D)---Cissoko(FB S)

Weiman(WM A)---Cleverley(RP S)---Westwood(CM D)---Delph(B2B S)---Agbonlahor (W A)

Benteke (CF S)

Control

Flexible

TI:More Direct, Early Crosses, Drop Deeper, More Discipline, Higher Tempo

PI:

Weiman: get further forward, Cut inside.

Lowton: Cross more

Delph: Dribble more

Westwood: More Direct passing

I thought I'd try a flat midfield 3 as an experiment as it seems more like how Villa play in real life, but I will revert Westwood to DM if it doesn't work for me.

Will report back with my findings once I"ve got through a few games.

[jimbobBRFC]

I do really like the look of this tactic Used it as a base for my Rovers team but made a few slight changes.

GK(SK S) Always like the use of a sweeper keeper simply to pick up balls over the top. This is personal pref more than a tactical decision

WB(S) --- CD (D) --- CD(D) --- WB(S) A pretty standard back four. Want the Full Backs to get forward when attacking so gone for Wing Backs over full backs

DM(D) The ball winner and physical presence, technically not brilliant but there to shield the defence break up attacks and move the ball forward quickly

RP(S) --- CM(S) Both with more direct passing. I want the RP to pick up the ball and carry it before spraying passes out. The CM Is there as a solid base to cover for RP

W(S) --- IF(A) This selection is simply because of available players, I will detail in a second what I want this to become

DLF(S) DId want to use a Target Man Support but found an excessive amounts of Long Balls being lumped forward so changed for a DLF

Control I am wondering if an attacking mentality would keep the fast forward transitions

Structured Possibly even highly structured

TI: Drop Deeper, Press More, Much Higher Tempo

PI: RP/CM - More direct passing,

Front 3 - Cant remember the exact instructions as I cant load FM at the minute but these instructions are to encourage the freedom and creativity to break out of the more rigid framework of the rest of the team

Hope that isnt too confusing to read

Eventually I want the front three to turn into a Inside Forward - False 9 - Raudemeter combination. My aim is to develop into a structured disciplined defensive base through the defensive line, Defensive Mid and Midfield, I will then leave the front with freedom to cause chaos, supported when in attack by the RP and the wing backs moving forward. I want the Trio to attack:

IF: Sits wide then very direct in his running, excellent pace dribbling and finishing to drive straight at the heart of the defence and get goals. Ronaldo would be my ideal player simply due to his pace and power/

F9: The Messi role, drop deep and link up with the RP before turning and getting forward to support the attacks. Im expecting this position to end up being a converted Attacking Midfielder. Small and tricky

Raud: I want this player to be a complete all rounder and this is definately going to be the hardest role to fill. Intelligence, dribbling ability, physically good and can finish. GIven free roam of the right side of the pitch to cause chaos

Thats the master long term plan, just slowly trying to develop the squad with a very small amount of money. Hopefully an increased budget on promotion will give me some room to wiggle and bring in some players more akin to what I want to see

[beverage1982]

So I thought it was time for a quick update on where I'm at with this experiment...

First of all the good news. I'm second in the table at the start of December. I've kept 6 clean sheets and the only losses I've had was a mad 5-4 loss away at City (we came back from 4-0 down) and a spawny 2-1 loss at Anfield.

Now the bad news. Despite some positive signs the tactic still isn't playing how i'd like it to.

Here's how it's set up (and I realise this shouldnt work but it does):

GK (D) Quicker distribution

FB's (s) Cross more

CB's (D) Mark Tighter

DLP (s) Direct passing, Close down more

CM (d) Direct passing

B2B (s) Close down more, direct passing, dribble more

IF (a)

W (a)

CF (s) - Move into channels

Standard

Structured

TI: Pass into space, Clear the ball to flanks, exploit flanks, play narrow, drop deep, close down more, higher tempo, more disciplined.

What I like:

- Very tight at the back

- Rb doing exactly what I want to do, overlapping and now has 6 assists.

- Lots of goals for IF and W

- Pressing in midfield

What I don't like:

- The striker. On support I find Benteke drops way deeper than he does in real life and rarely is a threat int he box. i want him leading the line but on an attack duty the team gets isolated.

- The TI's. There's way, WAY too many.

- The counter. We don't counter fast enough. When I've experimented with Attack mentality the pace has been way better but the defending has been much worse, though across the board the goals I'm conceding are crosses into the box from winger waltzing down the touchline (something I hear is a bit buggy).

The solution?

I want to get Benteke to lead the line more and I want the football faster. I'm thinking of switching to Attack and Very structured. Then dropping the CM (d) to a Dm (d), the W (a) to a W(s) and making the CF (s) a Cf (a).

In terms of TI's I'm leaning towards: Direct, clear the ball to flanks, narrow, drop deeper, tackle harder, higher tempo, disciplined.

Thoughts?

I know it's insanity to be looking to change considering how well I'm doing, but I just have to get this team playing the way I want!

[nick1408]

What about Benteke as a TMa? I'd be starting there if the CFs isn't working. As a support player he does need players around him. A TMA will still pass off to people around him but with attack is more likely to do what you're after. Keep an eye on the punts forward though

[migas8982]

I would actually suggest you having Benteke as a Trequartista to see what it does for him.

The trequartista will actually have lots of movement in the front and he will get back just right in my opinion. I know his skills are not perfect for the position, like poor passing, but he has a 14 attribute on vision which could actually start making a difference. Just give it a try

[beverage1982]

've finally finished my first season and thought it was about time to update on this.

I finished seventh after a collapse in the final five games which costs us a Champion's League place. Still it's a great achievement for this Villa side, one that was made ben more pleasurable by the fact Guzan kept 18 clean sheets on his way to winning the golden glove.

More pleasing still was I finally replicated Lambert to a degree.

Here's how it lined up in the end.

Defensive

Flexible

Push higher up, hassle opponents, play offside, hit early crosses, pass ball into space

GK (d)

FB (A)

CB (d)

Cb (d)

FB (a)

DM (d)

Dlp (s)

B2B (s)

If (A)

W(A)

DLF (s)

The positives were undoubtedly the defence alongside some great counter attacking with Gabby, Weiman and Grealish (all of whom played in my wide positions) scoring 10 a piece.

What was disappointing however was Benteke (just 7 goals and bad performances) and how I played against weaker teams. I was knocked out of both cups by lower league opposition and towards the end of the season my attack was blunted as the AI adapted.

So I'm heading into season 2 and have some plans I wanted to run past the brain trust.

I aim to keep mentality and Tis the same but I'm changing the shape slightly to:

GK (d)

FB (A)

CB (d)

Cb (d)

FB (s)

DM (d)

CM (A)

RPM (s)

W(s)

W(A)

CF (A)

The idea is to make more of Beneteke who's undoubtedly the star of the team. I also want to add another dimension to my attack through a central midfielder. Out wide I have Gabby who's great as AML winger and a more traditional winger on the right with an overlapping fullback.

My question is does this look balanced enough? I worry a lone striker on Attack will be isolated but with the CM (a) pushing up I hope I've countered that. Also is the RPM too adventurous in midfield or should I opt for something a little safer to counter attack the other attacking players?

[isignedupfornorealreason]

4-4-0-0-1, Contain, punt it out = Lambert.

Honestly that's how I saw it vs Southampton, admittedly I only watched the highlights but the gap between the 8 vs 1 was ridiculous. It really looked like a shut-up-shop tactic with bumbling incompetent players, and that Cleverley, hah.

I admit though I haven't strictly followed Villa, I thought O'Neil was doing good work there, but times change. Point is; I honestly couldn't tell you what Lambert's tactic is, he's unfathomable to me, maybe because his methods are so alien. Sorry I couldn't contribute!

[jackane24]

t was disappointing however was Benteke (just 7 goals and bad performances)

Sounds like you've done it perfectly!