4-2-3-1 Formation

[7Bestie7]

RossoneriGunner, that was going to be my exact point. I've gotten the impression that out of all the games FM10 is going to be the hardest to find a P&P tactic for those who want to win without learning how to.

Bestie.

[RossoneriGunner]

I worked with mag_man on his W_M tactic and the thread was started on 26 Feb 2009 and the last post was on the 28 Oct 2009 so it ran for 8 months and I think I can honestly say that even then mag_man and I were still not 100% happy, so these things do not happen overnight. I also think that it depends on which players you have got as every player plays differently. Some of my players were working well and mag_mans were not and vice versa, so even if they just download or plug 'n' play it does not mean it will be an instant success. At the moment I am looking forward to 4-2-3-1 and trying to get the Arsenal to perform well and win something.

[flauta kicma]

hello to all of you

i want to share my experiences with all of you in this great, studyous thread..

i play 4231 but with narrow AM players (because i got nasri, buonanotte, van deer vart, totti)

last season was god.. when i tweaked a little i got 9 win in 9 games..

my MCR is central midfielder on attack

MCL is central midfielder on defensive

AM CR is att.midfielder on support

AM CL is att.midfielder on support

AMC on inside forward on attack

SC on complete forward on support

and that works fine

but when i want to put an SC to attack

AMCR and AM CL to inside forward

and AMC to att.midfielder my game plan crashes it0s not so affective

and i dont see why it's only a couple of chhanges

if someone can hel me, advise me what are ideal settings to my 3 att.midfielders and SC to have a great amount of goals

and few questions

when i set my player on creator (put them roles) do i need to tweak them on advance instructions??? very important question to me

because when i get it on roles i want to change something like creative freedom for mine CB's, long shots to attacking players and so on

second do you think that variations of 4231 can really work on FM 2010??

it seems that this game can give you chance to suceed with every approach if you do it properly

is really affective to put you AM C an inside forwrad role.. because i thjought that it is for side players but it works to me

cheers folks!

[7Bestie7]

I 100% agree. I think the only way you can ever get a true plug-and-play tactical setup is to use the same team with the same players after starting the game at the same point. Rather, you have to play the same game. For me I have expanded the attribute system so define what I class as World Class, Top Quality and 1st Team worthy players. Each set has a number of attributes required to match what I need from each position and if a player doesn't fall into these groups then I don't sign them. In fact you'd be surprised at how players with extremely high CA/PA numbers (even world stars like Messi et al) aren't that high a priority for me because they might not be my versions of World Class players. I train my players the same way so how can someone use a tactic that I have designed my entire playing staff to suit without knowing the ins-and-outs of my management style? They can't, which is why I always shake my head at the questions asking for certain tactics.

Bestie.

[RossoneriGunner]

I have been playing FM from the very first one and when I started I did use to download and use P'n'P tactics and found that these never worked properly then. People would say I have so and so tactic and I have beaten Barcelona and R Madrid 10-0 and am 30pts clear in the then first division and you would think 'Wow, thats the one' download it and then wonder why you never won. I have been using the W_M tactic and found it worked for me, but there are people on here who said it was crap, but because it was set for my players it worked for me. I am now going to concentrate on the 4-2-3-1 and see what a balls up I can make of that....LOL

[Rohkey]

All I have to contribute to this conversation is that for me (as Chelsea) I get the most results when using a sole striker. I tried Anelka/Drogba, Drogba/Iaquinta, Kalou/Drogba, etc...and just having either Iaquinta or Drogba up front seems to yield the best results. So a 4-5-1 general formation is what I prefer.

[PhroX]

I'll throw out a few thoughts based on my experience with '10 so far. As with 09, I'm using a formation which isn't a 4-2-3-1, but pretty much plays like one. In this case, it's a 4-2-2-2 (i.e. a 4-4-2 with advanced wingers). With one of the strikers set to "deep lying forward" and on a support role (and hence acting similar to an AMC), it really resembles an attacking 4-2-3-1 in play (see the end of the post for the full settings), so some of this might be relavent to this thread.

1 - Obviously, it's a very attacking formation. AMR/L don't really track back much, and MCs, even with defensive settings, don't cover nearly as well as DMCs (in fact, I'm going to try dropping my MC(d) back in tougher games). So, it's probably one for strong (for their league) teams (or insane managers). I'd expect this to apply to the 4-2-3-1 too, for the same reasons, and if I was using a weaker team, I'd go for the 4-4-1-1 instead (assuming it works similarly to '09).

2 - The wide men are generally better with different settings. I've tried using two "wingers", but I get far better results with one "winger" and one "advanced playmaker". The latter generally links up excellently with the strikers, and though he doesn't score that many (for an out and out attacker), he's involved in the build up for nearly every goal I score. I tried "inside forward" and it was pretty good (better than two "wingers"), but the creativity of "advanced playmaker" wins IMO. I do have an out and out winger for my left side, who I sometimes bring on late of when I'm defending a lead and looking to hit people on the counter.

3 - Speaking of counter attacks, they're scary with 4 players sitting on the opponent's D-Line.

4 - Possesion stats aren't that high. Even when I dominate games (eg comfortable 4-0 wins), I rarely have a massive possesion advantage. Maybe 55-45 at best.

Settings:

Team: Pressing High, Crossing Drilled, everything else default/balanced/normal etc.

DR/L: Full back, automatic

DCs: (whatever the default is, I forget)

MC(l): Ball winning, defend

MC®: Deep playmaker, support

AML: Advanced playmaker, attack

AMR: Winger, attack

FC(l): Poacher, attack

FC(d): Deep lying, support

[7Bestie7]

PhroX,

That is something I forgot to mention (I think) in this thread. I have absolutely nothing against staggering my midfield even when playing a 4-2-3-1. In fact in my 09 game I often played with two DMs, one an out and out anchor man but the second one was actually a CMa/attacking midfielder who I would pull back when needing the bodies in place ahead of my defense but when I wouldn't want to lose the attacking side of the midfield. Generally though I tend to drop the CMd back when I need the extra protection. In reverse I'll push the CMa into an AM and push the AMC into being a deep lying ST to turn it into a 4-1-3-2 advanced when I need to attack.

Bestie.

[James8]

"- Removed old code that stopped an AMC playing directly behind a lone FC by shifting one left and one right"

The above is taken from the Patch 10.1 fix list which I think is good news for anyone wishing to experiment with this formation.

[RossoneriGunner]

Hi peeps, I am struggling to find the enthusiasm to get started as I feel like death warmed up at the moment and everything seems such a chore. Anyway has anyone used the 4-2-3-1 set formation. I started with this as a base, and have started by moving 2 of the AMC's to make an AM L&R and it uses 2 MC's one which I have set as a box 2 box midfielder and one as a ball winning midfielder(defend). Anyway those who used this formation in 09, did you transfer your settings from '09 to '10 or did you use new settings?.

[crouchaldinho]

I'm currently managing in the Italian lower leagues and I have a number of quality DMs in my squad due to some very successful recruitment in the January sales. This resulted in an inevitable switch to 4-2-3-1, which I always fancied trying out anyway.

So, I'm now playing a 4-2-3-1 with two holding midfielders, one of which is a deep-lying playmaker Xabi Alonso style on a support duty. The other DM is just being used as a standard defensive midfielder on a defend duty. I've got two attacking wide players, one of which is an inside forward (his preferred foot is opposite to the flank he is on) and the other is a winger. They are set to swap positions during the match. I did want to use a wing back duty on the side where I have my inside forward in order to ensure more attacking width on that flank, however I simply don't have the quality in the fullback position at the moment. Up front, I have gone for a creator and goalscorer partnership. I have an attacking midfielder on a support duty playing behind a quality advanced striker. This tactics set is using the rigid philosophy with zonal marking selected along with a few of my own adjustments, particularly my own customised set pieces.

The 4-2-3-1 is just settling in. I appear to have created a tactic which bores the fans of my club to sleep at matches. But it's a results business and I'm no footballing purist. Italian writer Gianni Brera argued that the ideal game would end 0-0; he would have liked watching football at my club!

I think part of the issue is that I now have a quality defensive midfield, which can dominate games, however I don't quite have the attacking quality to back it up in the forward positions. Obviously, with the 4-2-3-1, you're attacking with four players. It's fine if you can deploy some real quality in attack but I haven't quite got that quality yet. However, what it is doing is making my team extremely difficult to beat indeed. I tend to keep clean sheets and defend really well but finding a goal is an issue at the moment. I have thought of increasing the creative freedom but perhaps I need to bring some more quality in for the attacking positions during the summer.

Anyway, just thought I would share my current thoughts. Anyone else playing around with this formation?

Regards,

C.

[Hammerpool]

Hi Crouchaldinho

This is how i play it currently -

Home

------0------

0-----0-----0

----0--------

--------0----

0---0---0---0

DC - Both set to defend

FB - Both set to automatic

DMC - Anchor man

MC - Deep lying playmaker - Support

AMR - Winger - Attack

AML - Winger - Attack

AMC - Attacking Mid - Attack

ST - Complete Forward - Support

Team - Attacking (Change to suit - Control) - Fluid - More Direct

Away

------0------

------0------

0---0-------0

--------0----

0---0---0---0

DC - Both set to defend

FB - Both set to automatic

DMC - Anchor man

MC - Central Mid - Defend

MR - Wide mid - support

ML - Wide mid - support

AMC - Attacking Mid - Support

ST - Complete Forward - Attack

Team - Standard (Change to suit - Counter or Defend) - Fluid - More Direct

I will sometimes use my Away at Home if i am feeling cautious or need a result and sometimes switch to my Home at Away (mid game) if i am chasing a result.

Sorry i cant put screenshots up as am at work, but its working really well me.

Cheers

P.S. IRL life i would go for the Deep Lying Playmaker playing deeper and the DMC (anchor man as set above) in the higher position.

I would use a Xabi / Pirlo type deeper, with a Masch / Gattuso type pressing ahead of them.

However, i tried that in the game and it didn't work aswell.

[crouchaldinho]

Interesting stuff Hammerpool.

I've now experimented with have my fullback on the left playing a wingback role behind my inside forward AML. Working really nicely as the fullback gets forward on the overlap. Looking solid defensively and a little more potent going forward.

C.

[crouchaldinho]

I'm in love with the 4-2-3-1 at the moment.

I'm a total convert to the system after reading Lucchesi and I'm finding that it works really well in FM as well. I like the solid 6 players in defence but I also love the fact that you can have four very attacking players in the attack. I think it's both solid and quite exciting going forward too. I tend to operate with a deep-lying playmaker at DM who dictates the tempo and plays plenty of through-balls to the attacking players. I tend to have one winger and one inside forward in the wide attacking midfield positions, with a wing back deployed behind the latter to add extra width and a normal fullback behind the winger.

I think a lot of people believe the 4-2-3-1 is quite a defensive system but if you look at it coming from another angle, this system operates constantly with four attacking players and the three attacking midfielders can also be makeshift strikers.

You can look at the 4-2-3-1 two ways really. Either as a different way to define 4-4-2, with more attacking wide players, a striker withdrawn and the two central players shielding the defence. Or you can look at it as a relation of 4-3-3, with the midfield trio staggered in a slightly different fashion.

I'm really enjoying the kind of football my team play using this system.

C.

[aston_martin]

I play my Villa team with a 4-2-3-1, generally with 2 CM's as I don't use a playmaker. (If I used the "10" as a playmaker, I'd have 2 DM's to allow the "10" to have more space. It is a very solid formation, my performances are certainly better than when I played with a 4-4-2. Defence is certainly a real strong point. I usually average between 0.4 and 0.6 goals conceded per game, and a tad under 2 scoring per game.

[Rubentus_Juventus]

Hi all just started a Juventus one and i am planning to play a 4-2-3-1 whcih follows like this

----------------------------------Buffon-----------------------------------

Rafinha-----------Cannavaro------------Chiellini----------De Ceglie

-----------------------Melo-----------------Marchisio--------------------

Camoranesi-------------------Diego--------------------------Giovinco

---------------------------------Del Piero----------------------------------

I have my back line planned out, but the midfield and forwards im not sure..... do i play Melo as a "box-to box midfielder"? Do i play Diego as a "trequartista" and do i play my winger as "Inside Forwards". And Del Piero..... whhat should he be "Complete forward support"? "Advanced"? "Deep lying forward"

If anyone can help it will be gretly appreciated!

[Rubentus_Juventus]

Its all good made a wonderful 4-2-3-1 tactic scored 14 in 3 game and conceded 1! Played Parma, Inter and Genoa

[grimness]

Share some info please

[K-oTiC]

I liked the idea presented here of playing with 2 DMs, 1 MC and advanced wingers and wanted to give it a try but in the two games I'm running now I just don't have the resources on hand to do so.

So instead, I am using this set-up;

So far so good, but one game is in Italy with Milan and I have a very talented squad, and the other is with Wehen in Germany where I have a strong squad and am only in pre-season at the moment.

The basis for both is as follows..

GK: Sweeper Keeper (Support)

DR: Full Back (Automatic)

DL: Full Back (Automatic)

DC: Central Defender (Defend)

DC: Central Defender (Defend)

MC-r: Ball Winning Midfielder (Support)

MC-l: Deep Lying Playmaker (Defend)

AMC-r: Attacking Midfielder (Attack)

AMC-c: Inside Forward (Support) - edited to have long shots as mixed/rarely

AMC-l: Attacking Midfielder (Attack)

ST: Complete Forward (Attack)

Obviously some roles are defined by the players I have on hand, in particular the Sweeper Keeper, Complete Forward and Deep Lying Playmaker.

As a team we use a fluid philosophy and control/attacking strategy. I also use a high level of closing down. The three attacking midfielders are instructed to swap positions with each other.

So far both teams look quite fluent in attack and are holding their own defensively, but the team tires quite fast with the higher level of closing down which is something I will keep track of to see 1-if it can work without being high, and 2-if the team has trouble backing up for two matches a week as the season progresses.

As I said, so far so good, so I'm willing to experiment further and try to play around with it to progress this further.

[SCIAG]

Hi all just started a Juventus one and i am planning to play a 4-2-3-1 whcih follows like this

----------------------------------Buffon-----------------------------------

Rafinha-----------Cannavaro------------Chiellini----------De Ceglie

-----------------------Melo-----------------Marchisio--------------------

Camoranesi-------------------Diego--------------------------Giovinco

---------------------------------Del Piero----------------------------------

I have my back line planned out, but the midfield and forwards im not sure..... do i play Melo as a "box-to box midfielder"? Do i play Diego as a "trequartista" and do i play my winger as "Inside Forwards". And Del Piero..... whhat should he be "Complete forward support"? "Advanced"? "Deep lying forward"

If anyone can help it will be gretly appreciated!

I'm not familiar with Marchisio. I just had a look at him, and he seems ideal for deep lying playmaker (support). When you are chasing the game, you could move him to a more attacking duty and he'd still do well. Anyway, deep lying playmakers work well with box to box midfielders, so yes, that's what I'd give Melo.

Diego as a trequartista and ADP as a complete forward (support) sounds like a brilliant partnership, that is what I would do. I'd look to get a replacement for Del Piero lined up and coming off the bench most matches. You could move Giovinco up if you wanted, I find him to be a fine striker.

Personally, I'd set the wingers to winger (attack/support, doesn't really matter), and have them swap positions. Some of the time, they'll cut in, sometimes they'll go up the touchline. It works well and gives you variety.

Good luck

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've been playing 4-2-3-1 variations a lot recently. The problem for me is often the lone striker. When managing Liverpool, Torres scored 1 goal in 8 league matches, though he added six in three cup appearances and was setting up a good few goals. When I rested him and played Kuyt, the Dutchman got a hat trick In the next match, Kuyt got a goal and an assist.

I wanted to try a similar formation on my experimental Arsenal save. I intended on playing like this:

-----------------Almunia------------------

Sagna-------Gallas----Vermaelen----Clichy

-------------Defour---Fabregas-----------

RVP---------------VDV------------Arshavin

------------------Dzeko-------------------

Defour box to box, Fabregas advanced playmaker (support), VDV attacking midfielder (attack), Eduardo advanced forward, Arshavin and RVP inside forwards (attack, swap positions).

That didn't work. Dzeko didn't have space to shoot, he was isolated up front. The midfield trio and the centre backs were scoring all the goals. When RVP got injured, I brought in Vela and went 4-3-1-2, with this midfield and attack:

----------VDV-----Defour-----Fabregas--------------

------------------Arshavin--------------------------

------------Dzeko---------Vela----------------------

Roles: VDV CMa, Defour BWs, Fabregas APs, Arshavin AMs, Dzeko TMa, Vela DLFa. Arshavin and VDV swap positions.

Sagna and Clichy were strained supporting the attack and providing width, but it didn't matter. Dzeko scored 12 in 12, Vela scored 7 in 5 before injures set in. Against better teams, I'd drop VDV or Arshavin, set Defour to B2B, and bring in Song as a DM.

[7Bestie7]

I've just gotten around to creating my 4-2-3-1 in FM10 and it seems the ME has it as an extremely fluid attacking options, there are many times during the game when it becomes a 4-3-3, a 4-3-2-1, a defensive 4-1-4-1 and an attacking 4-1-5 without me changing any of my settings. It's very interesting to watch and I may do a long post about the shifts of the formation after a few games.

Bestie.

[Bednar]

i have been having good success with my 4 2 3 1 which is actually a 4 1 1 3 1 formation.

I have a DM, an MC, then AMR. AMC and AML and SC. The key is that i have them "offset". That is to say that the DM and AMC play in the left central slots, and the DM and SC in the right central slots.

I also use asymetric wingers. My AML is set to cut inside and play as an inside forward, where as my AMR is an out and out winger, hitting the byline and delivering crosses.

First created it on a liverpool save and although i only finished 2nd in the league (i find chelsea incredible in my games!) i managed to only concede 20 goals in the league all season which was a record low for me. I also won the CL.

I tested it with Leeds in league one and won the division comfortably, again with low goals conceded.

Did half a sseason with Bolton and although it wasnt brilliant, i was 10th when i quit with a squad containing lots of new signings (low gelling) which was still above expectations.

Always been my fav tactical shape, glad it is workign

[joshb729]

Whats the best defensive options for this formation?

I've been tweaking with a similar formation all day long and FINALLY, I think I got it figured out to score some goals, but I'm giving up buckets of them as well.

[7Bestie7]

The CMs as DMs, Defensive Midfielder and Deep-Playmaker. The Wide men as wingers to take the ball into the corners before crossing and the AMC as a Trequartista so that he drops deep to make a 4-3-2-1 formation when defending. Use a Support striker so he too drops deeper.

Bestie.

[joshb729]

Yea.. I don't have any DMCs so for now I'm stuck with MCs Been tweaking some more and might have found something that works.. Here's how I am setup now and this has stopped the bleeding, but wondering if there's anything else I can do.

DR - Fullback - Defend

DL - Fullback - Defend

DC - Central Defender - Stopper

DC - Central Defender - Cover

MC - Deep Lying Playmaker - Support

MC - Ball Winning Midfielder - Support

AMR - Inside Forward - Attack

AML - Inside Forward - Attack

AMC - Attacking Midfielder - Attack

ST - Target Man - Support

Target Man Supply - To Feet

Fluid

Control

Passing - Short

Closing Down - Press More

Marking - Zonal

Also using the Nike Defense on my backline (staggered mentality) and have tweaked with the Closing down settings for each player. Been screwing around with this and struggled to score goals. As soon as I went to a MC deep playmaker and switched my striker to a ball-holding target man, my offense kicked into gear.

[dankrzyz]

With the release of 10.3, which includes ME changes, have you found your 4-2-3-1 to play the same? Has its performance changed at all?

[tektonik]

Right now I am experimenting with a 4-2-3-1, but when you look at it... its more of a 4-2-2-2 that was tilted to be a rhombus. But the basics of the 4-2-3-1 are there.

Disregard players as I was resting certain player.

All setting are tweaked except AMC

FB provide width and overlap.

DM is a true ball winning midfielder

MC is set to a low mentality but has high creative freedom. He tends to be the drop back pass if things get too crowded around the box.

ML is a winger true and true. Makes about 8 dribbles a game with a horrible passer rating because his main passes are crosses.

AMC is a Trequartista, I am finding it to be a bit better than my Attack Midfielder it used to be

AMR is an inside forward. Normally it is Ronaldo.

ST is advanced forward.

My goals come from Ronaldo and the Strikers mostly (CR is my main penalty taker). I could move ML up to AML but I like having him set back to receive the ball and make dribbles. I play with passing down the flanks, no playmaker and ST target man with run onto ball.

24 League games with 62 goals and 13 against (this is amongst my changes throughout the season and a stupid first 3 games).

[melogroovy]

Loversleaper has some good 4231 tactics posted here:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=168984

They are in classic mode, though. These tactics are sound defensively and feature good movement and some really beautiful football. I have a real good all around striker (Welliton) who has scored 20 in 29 games this year. However, other players chip in too. I'd suggest checking out his thread.

[dankrzyz]

A summary from Crouchaldinho on content from Lucchesi's book...

Wingers/side attacking midfielders – Closing down. Penetrating deep upfield, cutting inside or hugging the touchline. Point of reference for the attack. Crossing, penetrating passes, shooting. Good dribbling skills, ability to cross the ball, accurate passing, finishing.

AMC – Help centre-forward apply pressure. Key in the offensive phase. Must complement the centre-forward. Good timing, penetrating runs, attacking space. Good dribbling and make himself available in the build-up phase. Should be good at receiving the ball, able to turn and dribble, passing, switching the point of attack and good finishing. Technically skilled and tactically clever, his physical skills are not as important.

Centre-forward – Receive and protect the ball to enable his team to move up-field and attack. An all-rounder. One-two passes to create or score himself. Aerial power, strength, shooting, composure, passing.

I've been reading another interesting article on the Italian approach to tactics and player roles and can't help but piece your summary from Lucchesi's book together with the three main attacking roles described in that article.

Center Forward:

Primera Punta

, an all-rounder, strong, good in the air, strong finisher

Wingers:

Seconda Punta

, technically strong, fast, good with ball at feet

AMC:

Trequartista

, also technically strong, great vision & creativity

I don't have the opportunity to see a lot of Italian matches, but is this a reasonable application of roles into a 4-2-3-1? Of course, the roles described in the article aren't 100% descriptive of positions on the field. Not an exact translation.

I've played my 4-2-3-1, in some cases, as with a Complete Forward (S) as center forward, Inside Forwards (A) on the wings, and an Advanced Playmaker (A) or Trequartista (A) in the hole. I imagine that's how one might set up these roles into the formation. However I have had good results with a Poacher in the center forward position, when playing with a not-so-complete forward due to limited personnel. Fulfills the strong finisher role, but not strong or able in the air. It played a more "defense stretching" role rather than a "hold up ball" role. But I digress...

[crouchaldinho]

A few questions for anyone using 4-2-3-1:

1) How have people got on when employing a trequartista in the AM position and how have you tended to set up the lone forward in front of him?

2) Totally separate from the above, I'm just wondering about people's experiences when using a narrow 4-2-3-1 (either two DMs and three AMCs, or two MCs and three AMCs).

3) Finally, not really a question, but I'd be interested in hearing any thoughts on the application of 4-2-3-1 with DMs or with MCs. I've used both versions but with AMR and AML. It strikes me that the 4-2-3-1 with MCs plays remarkably like a 4-4-1-1, while the 4-2-3-1 with DMs provides a really solid base defensively and can be really useful for smaller sides where you feel that you need to use defensive midfielders to counter a threat from the opposition.

Any thoughts on these questions/points would be appreciated.

[dankrzyz]

1) How have people got on when employing a trequartista in the AM position and how have you tended to set up the lone forward in front of him?

I've only played around with a Treq in this formation a few times, but always find that between the cut-inside inside forwards and the lone striker, the Treq feels pretty cramped for space. Putting the forward on an attack role (adv fwd, complete fwd, poacher) helped some, but still feeling tight in the middle. When playing with a Treq, or a playmaker AMC in general, I don't think using the lone fwd as a get-ball-in-advanced-position-and-hold-up-play-targetman is appropriate.

2) Totally separate from the above, I'm just wondering about people's experiences when using a narrow 4-2-3-1 (either two DMs and three AMCs, or two MCs and three AMCs).

Not used the narrow version before. If I was playing with a narrow formation with a lot of attacking players, I'd tend toward a 4-3-1-2.

3) Finally, not really a question, but I'd be interested in hearing any thoughts on the application of 4-2-3-1 with DMs or with MCs. I've used both versions but with AMR and AML. It strikes me that the 4-2-3-1 with MCs plays remarkably like a 4-4-1-1, while the 4-2-3-1 with DMs provides a really solid base defensively and can be really useful for smaller sides where you feel that you need to use defensive midfielders to counter a threat from the opposition.

I've played both ways, but without finding a conclusive opinion on which works better. One thing that I notice when playing with DMs is that without proper closing down, they hang back too far, letting the opposition MCs advance and pick out their moves before engaging my defensive midfielders. Too often I've seen opponent MCs advance, then shoot long or pass into the box, before my DM even stepped up to challenge him! That being said, this could be fixed through proper role or closing down settings, I'd imagine. Do you use your DMs as Support/Defend, Defend/Defend, or Support/Support? What roles have you used in this situation?

Tying two of your questions together... on paper, I like the idea of playing with DMs, allowing the opposition to advance, killing play, then turning on the counter. Conceptually, I feel pushing the midfielders back might give more room for a Treq to operate in the middle of the pitch. Can't say I've gotten that to work as I've described, but it's probably due to my tactical shortcomings and not the concept!

[crouchaldinho]

Good post there dankrzyz. Just the sort of discussion I was looking for.

I've only played around with a Treq in this formation a few times, but always find that between the cut-inside inside forwards and the lone striker, the Treq feels pretty cramped for space. Putting the forward on an attack role (adv fwd, complete fwd, poacher) helped some, but still feeling tight in the middle. When playing with a Treq, or a playmaker AMC in general, I don't think using the lone fwd as a get-ball-in-advanced-position-and-hold-up-play-targetman is appropriate.

My concern was more to do with having enough options for the trequartista to pick out. With the 4-3-1-2, which is how such a player is traditionally employed in real life, he has the two forwards, plus the midfield presence in support. With the 4-2-3-1, it strikes me that his options are more restricted to the lone forward and the two wide players. I found it more effective to use a standard attacking midfielder in this role so that he himself can get forward into the box to offer an option.

Not used the narrow version before. If I was playing with a narrow formation with a lot of attacking players, I'd tend toward a 4-3-1-2.

It's something I'm going to give a go at some point. Three AMs behind a striker, sounds pretty attacking to me. I bet with the right roaming and creativity instructions, that could be something pretty special.

I've played both ways, but without finding a conclusive opinion on which works better.

I think they both do slightly different things.

The 4-2-3-1 with DMs and AMR/AMC/AML looks more like a real life 4-2-3-1 in the match engine in my humble opinion. The 4-2-3-1 with MCs and AMR/AMC/AML actually looks more like 4-4-1-1 and I suppose it isn't actually very different at all.

One thing that I notice when playing with DMs is that without proper closing down, they hang back too far, letting the opposition MCs advance and pick out their moves before engaging my defensive midfielders. Too often I've seen opponent MCs advance, then shoot long or pass into the box, before my DM even stepped up to challenge him! That being said, this could be fixed through proper role or closing down settings, I'd imagine.

I used the deep 4-2-3-1 for quite a long time and never experienced this issue but I use the standard tactics creator settings, so that might be why?

Do you use your DMs as Support/Defend, Defend/Defend, or Support/Support? What roles have you used in this situation?

I use a defend and a support.

The roles I have tended to use are a deep-lying playmaker alongside an anchor man (or sometimes just a defensive midfielder if the player is a bit more of an 'all rounder') with a defend duty. This worked really beautifully for me.

I found the 4-2-3-1 with DMs defensively solid and with the right players and instructions it doesn't have to be a defensive style formation even though you are defending with six and have two DMs. Without the right players though, I found it can become quite defensive and lacking in terms of punch up front.

Tying two of your questions together... on paper, I like the idea of playing with DMs, allowing the opposition to advance, killing play, then turning on the counter.

Yes, I think it can be pretty lethal on the counter, as you can soak up pressure and then unleash an attack down the wings.

It's like any formation really. You've got the potential there for some really exciting football if played right. Who is it in Italy who calls the formation 4-2-fantasia?

I mean, you have four very attacking players. You can also have a deep-lying playmaker in the defensive midfield position, which means another creator in the team. So on the plus side that can be very creative and attacking.

On the other hand, you have a back four and two defensive holding midfielders, and with such a shape, defence is in danger of becoming a priority rather than attack.

Conceptually, I feel pushing the midfielders back might give more room for a Treq to operate in the middle of the pitch. Can't say I've gotten that to work as I've described, but it's probably due to my tactical shortcomings and not the concept!

My concern then would be that the trequartista has less players to feed. With two DMs and only four attacking players, it does make me wonder if it is a better idea to use a standard attacking midfielder who can then, himself, offer another threat in the box.

[dankrzyz]

My concern was more to do with having enough options for the trequartista to pick out. With the 4-3-1-2, which is how such a player is traditionally employed in real life, he has the two forwards, plus the midfield presence in support. With the 4-2-3-1, it strikes me that his options are more restricted to the lone forward and the two wide players.

Unless the wide players are very effective in getting into the box, the Treq is often left with a limited target of the lone striker, often with two markers. With the 4-3-1-2, his options for forward players are doubled.

I used the deep 4-2-3-1 for quite a long time and never experienced this issue but I use the standard tactics creator settings, so that might be why?

I use the same, but probably mess up the roles. Often I will put my MCs/DMs both on Defend roles, probably not a good idea, the variation between a Defend and Support is more wise. I will have to look, perhaps a support role closes down a little more, which could address the closing down situation that I've described. The Deep-PM and Anchorman/Def-Mid combo sounds like a classic pairing.

What team settings do you tend to use in this setup? Deep or high defensive line? Closing down as often or stand-off more? Play with the counter mentality setting, or more control & attack mentality settings? For a counter strategy, play with two DMs, deep-DL, stand-off more, and counter mentality is the right set?

My concern then would be that the trequartista has less players to feed. With two DMs and only four attacking players, it does make me wonder if it is a better idea to use a standard attacking midfielder who can then, himself, offer another threat in the box.

I've also considered this approach, essentially using the two MCs/DMs as your passing players, spraying passes around to the four advanced players.

As they say, if you can't be a good model to others, at least be a serious warning. Keep that in mind when reading anything tactical I might write.

[crouchaldinho]

Unless the wide players are very effective in getting into the box, the Treq is often left with a limited target of the lone striker, often with two markers. With the 4-3-1-2, his options for forward players are doubled.

Yes, that's why I've tended to go for a more standard AM in the 4-2-3-1.

I use the same, but probably mess up the roles. Often I will put my MCs/DMs both on Defend roles, probably not a good idea, the variation between a Defend and Support is more wise. I will have to look, perhaps a support role closes down a little more, which could address the closing down situation that I've described. The Deep-PM and Anchorman/Def-Mid combo sounds like a classic pairing.

Yes, I think maybe having both on 'defend' is where your problems lie.

I quite like my two DMs to act like the two discussed in this article - http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2007/apr/23/howfergusonfellinlovewith

So yes, in that respect, a classic partnership in midfield.

What team settings do you tend to use in this setup? Deep or high defensive line? Closing down as often or stand-off more? Play with the counter mentality setting, or more control & attack mentality settings? For a counter strategy, play with two DMs, deep-DL, stand-off more, and counter mentality is the right set?

My defensive line and closing down etc. alters with the strategies. As this is how I have always played the game, I just stick with the default settings.

I find the 4-2-3-1 deep works beautifully as a controlling strategy as well though, and is especially good for retaining possession with the right players. One warning with the 4-2-3-1 deep though is that when playing defensively, the default d-line tends to sit too deep for my liking and invite pressure, so I tend to use the shout to push the line up when playing defensively.

I've also considered this approach, essentially using the two MCs/DMs as your passing players, spraying passes around to the four advanced players.

Yes, that's how I have had most success with this tactic. I had two quality DMs at one point on one of my saves - both technically excellent and creative - and the DLP would ping balls around for the front four while his partner would also play through balls or possession-based passes. Worked really well.

As they say, if you can't be a good model to others, at least be a serious warning. Keep that in mind when reading anything tactical I might write.

I'm sure you're not that bad!

[PeeKay]

There is a line of though that the AMC is a dying position, in real life, due to the rise of popularity of the DMC. Most teams are now playing with at least one DMC forcing the creative players to look for space on the wings or deeper.

How do you guys counter the use of DMC's by the AI opponent when using the 4-2-3-1? I ask because I have used the 4-1-2-3 (4-5-1) in the past for the reason that I could not get the AMC to work.

[crouchaldinho]

The trequartista has a roaming function and also has the wide play instruction 'moves into channels', and I am pretty sure that this is true of the other standard attacking midfielders. With these settings, the players will roam and end up all over the place, therefore potentially avoiding the attentions of the opposition DM.

There was an article on Italian football talking about how trequartistas no longer function just centrally in the hole and how they tend to move laterally more often these days. This seems to be how the trequartista role is programmed in FM.

The main role which has a problem is the advanced playmaker role. For some reason, this role is programmed without 'roam from position' instructions and I assume this is because they wanted the advanced playmaker to sit in the hole rather than roam looking for space. So you may have more problems with this kind of player.

[Finknottle]

Hello "C", You may or not recall expressing surprise and interest in my "Rafa" version of the 4-2-3-1 tactic when I had the two DMC holding players. This was of course before the "Tactics Creator". I had some success with it with Hull City but I won the Premiership and League Cup with Liverpool in my first and only season with them. I had the two holding midfielders as out and out DMC's. The advantages with LFC were that because of the high standard of available players, I could play attacking against all but the so called top three teams. The reverse was true when I used Hull City because of the relatively poor standard of the players. I have not used the tactic at all this season. I am trying to use a 4-1-3-2 tactic back with Hull City, with not a lot of success, I might add. Kind regards.

[crouchaldinho]

Of course, I remember your 'adventures' with Hull City well Oescus!

Like you, I've found that 4-2-3-1 with DMs can be a really excellent basis for a big club. I'm sure it worked perfectly for you at Liverpool as they certainly had the players for it back on FM09 (especially the defensive holding midfielders). I have a fun save with England that I check in and out of, and I found that it worked especially well with them, taking me to a World Cup final, where I was unfortunately beaten by France. The 4-2-3-1 Deep also won me a lower league title in Italy, along with another promotion via the play-offs, so I have a certain fondness for it now on FM10!

[Finknottle]

What Ho! "C", You've got me thinking about restarting with Hull using the deep 4-2-3-1 and the "Tactics Creator".

[crouchaldinho]

Nice one Oescus. Give us some feedback on how you get on!

[dankrzyz]

Related to the use of a trequartista in the 4-2-3-1, and even more generally, where do you encourage "roaming" in this formation? The Treq would roam, looking for space in the middle and where it's afforded him by the opposition, but do you put your lone forward on roaming? Wide players (inside forwards, wingers, etc)? In a lot of tactics, I ask my wide players to roam to find space, where it's more likely to be. Just curious if there's another school of thought on this...

[Finknottle]

Nice one Oescus. Give us some feedback on how you get on!

"C". To avoid starting yet another new save, I have changed my present Hull 4-1-3-2 tactict to the 4-2-3-1 [deep] tactic. I am four league matches into my second season in the Premiership. I finished a creditable 9th in my first season using a 4-5-1 and 4-4-2 tactic. You have to remember that in FM terms both Altidore and Zaki are pretty good players. They scored 24 and 17 league goals respectively. However, at the end of the season they whiz off back to their clubs and won't come back.

Now for the very early update on the deep 4-2-3-1 tactic. After three games the worrying thing that I have immediately seen is this. Both the DMC's seem to drop back into the back four and make up a back six. I don't know how to stop this. It may be the fact that I do not have two bonafide DMC's, I am using Zayatte and Addison [from Derby County] as they both are "accomplished" DMC's. They are both DC's by trade.

This seems to have the effect of having a big hole in the centre of the pitch. However, despite this my three results using this system are 2-1 [H] v Middlesbrough, league, 2-1 [A] v Preston league cup and 1-1 [A] v Wolves, league. I am currently 7th in the Premiership but with some of the top sides to play shortly, I don't expect to be up there for too long. I am trying to assemble a "British" only squad. It is not easy. My big "coup" has been to bring back Matt Derbyshire from Greece for £5000000. And no, I have not cheated. The money came from the club's transfer fund and from selling some of the high wage earners in the close season. I can't shift Bullard though, as he is demanding £37500 per week until the end of his contract, in 2013, to move on! I wonder if he is going to try this on IRL! Kind regards.

[crouchaldinho]

I haven't seen that occur with the DMs in my game. They tend to sit in front of the defence and shield the back four when I play 4-2-3-1.

What settings are you using for the DMs?

[dankrzyz]

That's the situation I was trying to describe. Perhaps closing down is too low, asks them to sit back, not step up and close down earlier? Or perhaps it's something to do with zonal vs man marking?

(Unfortuately, I'm -6 hours or something from you all... sitting in the office, instead of looking at this in-game! )

[Finknottle]

I haven't seen that occur with the DMs in my game. They tend to sit in front of the defence and shield the back four when I play 4-2-3-1.

What settings are you using for the DMs?

Because of my lack of [FM] tactical knowledge, I am using the in game "Tactics Creator" settings provided when creating the tactic.

[dankrzyz]

Because of my lack of [FM] tactical knowledge, I am using the in game "Tactics Creator" settings provided when creating the tactic.

I use it too, enjoy it. But often look "under the hood" to see what the settings are, and see if a touchline shout or even a manual tweak to a setting is warranted. If I get a chance tonight, I will look in-game and see if I can add anything concrete to the discussion.

[PhroX]

On the subject of using DMCs or MCs, I'm currently playing a 4-2-3-1 with one of each. DMC (either DM or Anchor depending on the player) on the left side, and MC (either Center Mid or DLP) on the right. My left full back is set to wing back (to overlap the AML who cuts inside), so having the deeper player on the side helps cover, while having the other one as a MC helps out in attack as he's further forward.

[zychan1]

The 4-2-3-1 is slowly becoming the "vogue" formation to use in Europe these days, and in-between studying for exams I've put down some thoughts on how my 4-2-3-1 would actually work out. I would also like to hear some thoughts on how this could be integrated into FM2010 as I've had little success so far. I'll try to give a brief explaination of how each key role of the team should play out, and maybe give suggestions on some real players who would suit the role best.

With the advent of teams now using a specialised DMC, the effectiveness of a proper AMC playmaker has been diminished. Teams can't expect a AMC to now sit in the hole between the opposition defence and midfield and spray passes all around without being hassled and tightly marked by an opposing DMC. Hence the advent of the deep-lying playmaker, who sits further away from the opposition midfield in his own half to allow himself more space and time on the ball to pick out passes. My 4-2-3-1 would ideally be built around such a deep-lying playmaker. The team will play a fairly slow and controlled build up play in their own half, before the DLP launches a precise through pass or ball over the top for the attack. If not, he will bring the ball to the middle line before initiating a lightning fast one-touch passing move to split the defence.

Key roles:

Deep-lying playmaker The heart of the team. His distribution will be the key to how the team goes about in attack. He should sit within his own half but close to the middle line, either playing long passes to the wingers or strikers or short ones to the fullbacks or anchorman. Only crosses into the opposition pitch to support an attack, but almost never makes a run into the box, instead lurking outside to provide a backpass option to recycle the attack, or maybe take long shots. Ideally he'll only play the ball horizontally or forwards, rarely back to the defence. During an opposition attack he'll be tasked to form a "double volante" with the anchorman, or at least actively closing down opposition players.

Suitable players: Andrea Pirlo, Xabi Alonso, to a certain extent Xavi, Paul Scholes, Juan Sebastian Veron

AMC Probably one of the most difficult positions to get right. During normal play he would be expected to drop deep to provide a short forward option for the DLP and then spread play to the wings or play the striker in. When the ball is higher in the pitch though, he'll need to switch to playing as a second striker, using his explosiveness to burst into the opposition area or play a quick first touch pass to feed players in the penalty box. During the defensive phase he'll be tasked to close down the deepest opposition midfielder, usually the DMC or MCd.

Suitable players: Kaka, though for me he is more a traditional playmaker. Lionel Messi seems to be the most suited to the job. Also Sergio Aguero and Steven Gerrard in the current Liverpool setup.

AMR/L The most dynamic members of the team. The wingers will be given their heads to decide whether to move in- or outside the opposing fullback, regardless of what foot and flank they favour. The ability to switch flanks is a nice option, but not really necessary. When inside, they'll need to occupy both the fullback and a centre back, playing as a normal striker cutting in from wide. In this situation they would lurk outside the penalty box, ready to make a run into the box or hang back as a pass option. When outside they function as a traditional winger, running and beating fullbacks to put a cross in. Should also offer a heading option at the far post when the opposite winger is crossing. During defence they will be tasked to mark the opposition fullback, but rarely retreat into their own half as to offer a counter-attacking option on the break.

Suitable players: Cristiano Ronaldo during his MU days, Arjen Robben, Franck Ribery. Messi isn't on this list as he rarely gets down the flank to put in the cross.

Anchorman Last component of the midfield. Classic Makelele role to shield the defence and feed the DLP. Never gets forward, covers the flanks along with the fullbacks and looks to stop opposition play before the ball reaches defensive line. Should also be good enough to play as a third centre back if needed when both full backs push up. In very attacking tactics he can be converted into a box-to-box midfielder, providing strong running as an extra pass option for the DLP and to occupy the opposition midfield and defence.

Suitable players: Javier Mascherano, Daniele de Rossi, Rino Gattuso.

Striker Big, strong and tall, with a touch of pace and skill. Most of the time he'll be leading the line, always occupying the opposition centre backs to try to find space for the AMC and AMR/L. Will look to win headers or play flick ons if these players run beyond him, while also providing a strong finish in and around the box. Can also elect to drop deep to draw out opposition centre backs and create more space up front. Always moves in tandem with the AMC to confuse opposition defences. During defence he'll look to drop even deeper to play as a "false nine" and allow the AMR/L to run beyond him.

Suitable players: Difficult position to fill. Possibly Zlatan Ibrahimovic, Nicholas Anelka, Robin van Persie and to a lesser extent, Adebayor, Bobby Zamora and the likes.

Fullbacks Tracks and tightly marks opposition wingers. Will also push up until the middle line to provide a pass option for the DLP and to support the winger. Can also put in an early cross from deep to the Striker if the opportunity arises or to switch play to the other flank but in most cases, will look to knock the ball down to flank to the winger or sideways to the DLP. In extreme attacking tactics he will look to overlap the winger while the latter cuts in, essentially becoming another midfielder. In most cases though his role is mostly defensive/support, as overlapping usually leaves too big a gap to be exploited.

Suitable players: You don't need a Maicon or Glen Johnson or Patrice Evra to go up and down, but their high stamina and workrate is an added bonus.

Others Because of the shielding anchorman, it is not necessary to have a stopper-sweeper centre back partnership. In fact, it might be better to have a flat-line defence as a stopper-sweeper might leave gaps for really quick players when playing together with a DMC. However the centre backs should have the positional sense to cover for the fullback if needed, and when that happens the anchorman will drop back into defence to become the third centre back. A sweeper-keeper would be ideal if you're playing a flat-line defence, if not just a normal goalkeeper with strong command of area and aerial ability should be sufficient.

Current teams playing this system:

Man City, though for me Barry is not nearly a top class DLP, neither is Bellamy and Johnson dynamic enough. Too much still depends on Tevez in the AMC role with Adebayor alone up front.

Real Madrid could line up in this formation. Xabi Alonso as the DLP with Lass as the anchorman, Kaka as the AMC, with Marcelo and Ronaldo on the wings behind Higuain, who's more of an out-and-out goalscorer but is certainly strong and good in the air.

Barcelona could also work in this system. Xavi as the DLP alongside Yaya Toure, with Pedro and Iniesta on the wings and Messi behind Ibrahimovic. Iniesta perhaps lack the all out pace of a proper winger, and Alves might be a better option on the right. If he plays at fullback though, he would need to curb his attacking tendencies a bit.

Manchester United uses this formation in Europe. Rooney leading the line in front of Park/Giggs, Nani and Valencia. Scholes is the DLP, though his tackling leaves a lot to be desired, with Fletcher as an anchorman. Valencia is too much of a pure winger, while a lack of an explosive AMC is not ideal. Berbatov could play up front with Rooney as AMC, but his low work-rate means he functions more as a old-fashioned target man. Fletcher is probably a good example of the anchorman being a B2B midfielder.

AS Roma under Ranieri. Toni upfront with Totti behind him, along side Vucinic and Jeremy Menez on the wings. Pizarro is the DLP with de Rossi as anchorman. Totti's stature at the club and incredible ability on the ball means he's still the main playmaker in the team instead of Pizarro though.

So these are my thoughts on the 4-2-3-1. As some has mentioned in this thread, not everybody's 4-2-3-1 will be the same and certainly, the ME limits the implementation of certain ideas and tactics discussed here. I would certainly like input on how I could best implement these tactics into the ME and how I could improve on it.

[crouchaldinho]

I think a lot of what you have said is good stuff there zychan1.

I tend to operate with the following:

- Standard back four, with one fullback on a wingback role.

- Deep-lying playmaker alongside an anchorman or a defensive midfielder (depending on the qualities of the player).

- I often use a winger and an inside forward, again depending on the players, and this gives variation in attack.

- Up front, it depends upon the qualities of the two players. I try to have an all rounder striker if possible. Complete forward support has worked really well with an attacking midfielder attack behind him. Sometimes, with a less all round striker, I have used an advanced forward attack with an attacking midfielder support behind him. I always alternate the duties (support/attack or attack/support).

[crouchaldinho]

I would also tend to agree with your statements regarding the trequartista in these formations.

I think, in the 4-2-3-1, the tendency is to have the regista deeper in the midfield, and to have a creator and a destroyer partnership in the middle of the park (think the classic Pirlo - Gattuso combination).