4-2-3-1 Formation

[crouchaldinho]

Hello all,

As you all know, I'm a 4-4-2 man. But I'm quite interested to see how people believe that the 4-2-3-1 formation should be set up in FM as it is currently the most fashionable system at the top level.

I'm of the opinion that the tactical interface isn't quite sophisticated enough to make a 4-2-3-1 like the top sides are playing at the moment. Perhaps I am wrong about this though.

Wikipedia has this to say about the formation:

This formation is widely used by Spanish and French sides: it is a defensive formation which is quite flexible, as both the side midfielders and the fullbacks may join the attack, usually on the counter. In defence, this formation is similar to the 4-5-1. It is used to maintain possession of the ball and stopping opponent attacks by controlling the midfield area of the field. The lone striker may be very tall and strong to hold the ball up as his midfielders and fullbacks join him in attack. The striker could also be very fast. In these cases, the opponent's defence will be forced to fall back early, thereby leaving space for the offensive central midfielder. This formation is used especially when a playmaker is to be highlighted.

Wikipedia also includes a diagram of the formation including two Defensive Midfielders.

Most of the versions of 4-2-3-1 I have seen on this forum involve two MCs, AMR/AML, FC, which seems to me to be extremely attacking in its nature.

Most of the top sides using 4-2-3-1 are quite sophisticated in their off the ball, on the ball movement. I wonder if this is another case of FM not quite having the tools to create a real life dynamic defensive and attacking shape?

Anyway, being a 4-4-2 man, and a supporter of a club who mainly plays 4-4-2, I certainly don't consider myself an expert on 4-2-3-1 and so I would be interested to read the opinions of those who have more experience with it in real life and in the game.

C.

[michelco]

IMO the ME cannot replicate a 4-2-3-1. The 2 (doble pivote) should play as one unit and the 3 should play more or less in the same line. As it looks now when playing a 4-2-3-1 in FM09 the wingers is one the same line as the striker. Probably playing around with mentalities you can achieve this but its too advanced for me

[crouchaldinho]

IMO the ME cannot replicate a 4-2-3-1. The 2 (doble pivote) should play as one unit

I thought the general theme was that one of the 'holding' midfielders is more attack-oriented than the other?

C.

[SFraser]

From my experience the 4-2-3-1 is extremely potent in its flexibility but also requires much more micromanagement on a game by game basis than the 4-4-2. If you lack the patients for game-by-game minute micromanagement or lack the knowledge to be able to custom design the specifics of the 4-2-3-1 to your opponent then there are question marks over the performance of every single position outside the defence and goalkeeper.

Personally as far as FM is concerned I think dropping a Striker is more trouble than it is worth. If you need to pack the midfield then do so, otherwise the 4-4-2 is king in terms of solidity, offensive potency, flexibility and overall player performance in a single match context. I would much rather swap a Striker for an extra CM than figure out the compexities of the 4-2-3-1 on a match by match basis. 4-5-1 or 4-4-2 is as far as I go in FM09, because I can get them to work.

[crouchaldinho]

From my experience the 4-2-3-1 is extremely potent in its flexibility but also requires much more micromanagement on a game by game basis than the 4-4-2. If you lack the patients for game-by-game minute micromanagement or lack the knowledge to be able to custom design the specifics of the 4-2-3-1 to your opponent then there are question marks over the performance of every single position outside the defence and goalkeeper.

Could you be more specific and perhaps give an example?

Personally as far as FM is concerned I think dropping a Striker is more trouble than it is worth.

Not sure I would agree. I've found it quite effective, especially possession-wise, to drop a striker back to make a five man midfield.

4-5-1 or 4-4-2 is as far as I go in FM09, because I can get them to work.

Like you, I prefer the 4-4-2 or more straightforward 4-5-1 variations (of which I have tried quite a few). I have tried most modern formations in FM but this 4-2-3-1 is the one that I haven't got to grips with in FM terms, which is the reason I have decided to open this thread.

C.

[djkid85]

Ha, just when I was thinking on doing a thread on 4231 formation. I saw yours crouchaldinho.

I am a diehard fan of 4231 formation. Don't ask me why, I just love it.

I use the standard 4231 as you mentioned in your OP. The attacking possibilities it offers is exciting and to be able to see goals distributed pretty evenly within the team is quite satisfying.

Defensive wise, I have nothing to complain about as my 2 DCs with 2 fullbacks (who are probably the fittest in the squad together with my MCa), and my MCd provide a solid base upon which my offense can concentrate on doing what they do best without having to worry of a counterattack.

Man, I think I am gonna start working on my 4231 thread, and if possible and if you are willing crouchaldinho, we might want to merge our threads together and it will be easier for everyone to discuss on 4231.

[crouchaldinho]

I'm happy for you to do it in here if you want djkid85. Save you starting a new thread.

Either way, I look forward to seeing what you come up with.

C.

[djkid85]

From my experience the 4-2-3-1 is extremely potent in its flexibility but also requires much more micromanagement on a game by game basis than the 4-4-2. If you lack the patients for game-by-game minute micromanagement or lack the knowledge to be able to custom design the specifics of the 4-2-3-1 to your opponent then there are question marks over the performance of every single position outside the defence and goalkeeper.

Agreed. Certain formations can rip the 4231 apart if not managed properly during matches.

I'm happy for you to do it in here if you want djkid85. Save you starting a new thread.

Either way, I look forward to seeing what you come up with.

C.

Sure, I will get screenshots up and if possible, load up some match replays. All comments and criticisms are welcome.

[SFraser]

Could you be more specific and perhaps give an example?

The positioning of the AMC and Striker is determined by Footedness, whereas under a 4-4-2 with position swapping the positioning of each player is determined by space. This is instantly a massive tactical problem with negligable gain upon solution. The AMC will have a natural tendency to double up with an MC while the lone Striker is forced into an entireally isolated position on the flank opposite the AMC's favoured foot. This demands the withdrawl of an MC to a defensive position, rather than this tactical development being a considered choice. The entire balance of the formation is then determined by the footedness of the withdrawn Striker.

The next issue is that while the AMC is capable of joining up with the CM duo, his closing down is nigh on impossible to get functioning. His positional sense is likewise, in general, incredibly inferior but has the added bonus of forcing the CM duo to adapt to his inferiority. This leads to a situation where you place your MCd behind the unchangeable favoured position of the AMC, rather than in the tactically sound position.

Not sure I would agree. I've found it quite effective, especially possession-wise, to drop a striker back to make a five man midfield.

Possession has merit when you are controlling a favourable result. When in persuit of a goal it is an entireally different situation altogether.

[Celtic_1967]

. This is instantly a massive tactical problem with negligable gain upon solution.

What does that even mean? Is it another one of your 'space fillers', whereby it sounds great and like you know what you're talking about, but scrutinise it and it has absolutely no meaning.

Another potentially interesting thread ruined.

[jaycar]

I've had the same experience as most seem to have had.

I love the 4231 in real life, as its been said, getting it to work in the game just does not seem to work very well, the 2 CM's just do not seem to dominate the midfield, or at least having them as a MCd/box to box does not work, it leaves gaps. Both on mixed fwr seems far better, but having the wide players as AML/R, the actual position seems to have a far more attacking 'bias' than the normal winger positions.

(Trying to organise the rambling into paragraphs)...I meant that AML/R positioned players do not seem to either track back anywhere near as much as a ML/R, even if they have the same mentalities and closing down settings. Add that to the possible gaps in the CM areas and the formation is nowhere near as solid as it should be...

As for the attack...

The AMC/ST relationship would probably be fine if they were both natural in BOTH of these positions, and therefore they could swap. otherwise, the ST seems to be far to easily marked out of the game (Also my gripe with a 433 or 451). The AMC can also be snuffed out by one of the AI's MC's.

The best set up I have used has been borrowed (Read as 'stolen') from sfraser, 2 FC's (Important Imho) who both act as link up forwards. Both have slightly the same 1 notch less than team mentalities, both have free roles and high creative freedoms. They also swap positions.

Add to that mixed instructions for all but longshots and you have two very difficult to man mark players who can drop deep to pick up the ball, link up play, cross, play each other in...deadly with the right forwards.

(Please excuse spelling and ignore at your leisure)

[heathxxx]

What does that even mean? Is it another one of your 'space fillers', whereby it sounds great and like you know what you're talking about, but scrutinise it and it has absolutely no meaning.

Another potentially interesting thread ruined.

Stick with the thread topic by contributing towards its content, rather than picking holes in someone else's posting "style" please

[heathxxx]

I too like the real-life 4-2-3-1 formation, but in all honesty have struggled to use it successfully to my own satisfaction. Ok, I think with certain teams and players I could win leagues and trophies with it, but like a few single striker formations this time around, I've always ended up back with the 4-4-2 formation.

Defensively, not a problem and pretty much the same as I would set things up in my 4-4-2, using a "defensive triangle" of the two centre-backs and a defensive minded midfielder set one notch apart with the mentality slider, plus my usual attacking full-backs. Offensively however, can be very tricky to get the desired results because I'm usually most dissapointed with my AMC or MCa positions and how they perform overall.

I'm quite happy setting up my AMC in a playmaker or distribution role, but have struggled to get even players I consider to be ideally suited, performing as well as I would like in the deep striker role. They often tend to "go missing" and that may likely be my mentality settings within the framework I use, along with correct/incorrect additional settings. Something I'm constantly thinking about how to get right though

Thing is, what I might want to see particularly from the role, might differ entirely from what someone else considers successful and uses themselves. That's the interesting thing to note... personal preference.

[edwinteo]

i'm currently starting to create my own 4-2-3-1 system.

i had 1 previously and it worked fine, until the AI cracked it.

just to share,

i found that u have to have the fullbacks push up to occupy the side defenders of the opposition. even if they are defensive fullbacks with little attacking options, its fine. just make sure they make the runs all the way to the opponent penalty box / byline.

what this does, is it makes ur AML and AMR cut in between the fullback and centreback.

the defenders have to choose who to mark, what ever the case, someone ends up free.

the key now, is to have the ball passed to them. i use the MCs and AMC as distributors.

i tried long and hard to use a dribbler at AMC, he got marked out of the game.

important, either have the MCs on high mentality, but Nil fwrd runs to keep them just infront of the half way line, to distribute the ball to the wings or cutting in wingers.

the AMC must not have too high mentality or FWD runs often. he should always be around the edge of the penalty box, looking to slot a through ball in, if the defence leaves him unmarked. if the defence closes him down, he can either back pass to the MCs, and the attack starts again, or dribble past the closing down defender.

the striker has to either have high mentality or fwd runs often, to push the def line back to give space for the wingers and AMC.

i have tried using big target man type as well. what i did was max mentality and mixed forward runs but NO hold up ball, and pass to feet. he played with his back to goal, pushed the def line back, and played quick 1,2 passes with the Attacking mids.

another thing, your def line must be high. this brings ur CBs and MCs higher up the pitch. CB just below half way line, MCs just infront of half way line.

if clearance is through the middle, MCs should be in good position to deal with it. their closing down cannot be too high, u dont want them to chase the ball to the flanks, just to clog the middle. the wingers and returning fullbacks will have high closing down to close down the flank if need be.

if the opposition punts a long ball down the flank, the strong side CB will close down the ball, while the other CB and 2 MCs will clog the middle. so, if 1 opposition striker gets the long punt to the flank, the other striker will have 3 players marking him. even if the opposition has 1 fwd running midfielder in support, it is still a 3 vs 2 scenario.

once the counter attack is delayed, the rest of ur fullbacks would have run back into position.

i ended my 2nd season with the least no. of goals conceded and with the 2nd most goals scored, behind the Gung-ho Arsneal. hahaha

[jaycar]

offensively, a strike partnership seems more effective in this version than 1 strike, maybe man marking has been improved so much that unless players swap position or at least roam than they are to easily picked up and marked out of the game.

Certainly whenever I have used one up front the AI tends to tight mark, close down immediatley and use what looks like hard tackling. If it goes up to the striker he is dispossesed straight away.

[crouchaldinho]

Well I beg to differ on the lone striker front. I've played with various quick and strong lone strikers in my 4-4-1-1 and found them to be really effective, scoring plenty of goals.

The positioning of the AMC and Striker is determined by footedness though.

C.

[PhroX]

IMO, the best way to set up a 4-2-3-1 is to actually play a 4-4-1-1. I find that using the wide men as AMR/L makes them play almost as wide forwards. Combine that with the ST and AMC, and you're pretty much playing with 4 up front. By droppping them back to the MR/L positions, it gives a far more secure structure to the team, and, provided they've got reasonably attacking instructions, they still get forward well. Overall, 4-4-1-1 seems to me to play far more like a real 4-2-3-1, than a 4-2-3-1 does...

[mag man]

I have been tinkering with this formation recently, I was trying to replicate the way Hiddink's Chelsea were playing towards the end of the season. Most of my goals come from AMC or ST with assists coming from wide.

Very attacking fullbacks - Bosingwa, Cole

I had 2 holding midfielders but one of them was allowed to go forward a bit - Mikel sitting deep with Essien playing deep but running forward.

The AMC was a goal scoring midfielder rather than a supporting striker - Lampard

AMR and AML were primarily wingers but they tended to support the striker. - Cole, Malouda

The striker is a goal scorer/target man, did not get involved in build up play - Anelka or Drogba

I might do a proper summary when I get home tonight.

[crouchaldinho]

Would be very interested in what you have to say mag man.

C.

[mag man]

Ok, if I have time tonight will post up how I play if not will have to wait until the weekend

Will be useful for me because at the moment am finding it inconsistant so hopefully pick up some pointers.

[el jefe]

Good and interesting discussion, I sense this has the potential to become a very good thread.

4-2-3-1 is probably my favorite formation in real life, because of its flexibility. Some people think it's a defensive formation, but I don't agree. Besides, it's just numbers anyway..I've always struggled to do well using this formation on FM though, and haven't really had the patience to try to 'crack the code'.

I just finished the first season with Liverpool, ending third, about 20 points behind the winners. In the beginning I was using the wide version of the formation, but after a few months I decided to go with the narrow version. My attacking play have been pretty good, based on a patient approach with short passes all the way from the back. I've scored a decent amount of goals and controlled most games in terms of possession and shots on goal. However, I don't create too many clear chances, which is a bit frustrating.

Another thing is that it can sometimes be a bit congested around the opposition's penalty area. I usually try to solve this by sending the fullbacks forward often, but I still feel there's something missing. I have players with good movement, intelligence and passing in the final third, so I should be able to play the Dutch/Spanish way.

Anyway, my main problem is the defensive bit. I play with a normal defensive line (8-13 notches depending on opponent), closing down is on the first notch of 'always' for the whole team except my central defenders and central midfielders, and the mentality settings are on different degrees of 'normal' except for my second striker/ACM and my more attacking minded CM, who are set on the first notch of 'attacking'.

The problem is that I tend to give away too much space, especially in front of my central defenders. The reason seems to be because my wide players don't track back enough, which leads to my CM's being dragged out of position to cover for them. I've tried different types of marking, wide players man marking their fullbacks etc., but I haven't found a formula which gives me the defensive stability I want.

I'm about to play my first pre-season game before the second season, so I'm going home after work to experiment with mentality, passing, tempo and width to see if I can make the necessary tweaks in attack, plus various settings for my wide players.

[djkid85]

As mentioned, here are my tactics.

I currently play on 3 saves, Man Utd (EPL), Tonbridge Angels (BSS), HMD (N-League, now K-League). I use the same tactic for all 3 teams, without any changes to my Team Settings.

Below are screenshots of my tactic.

http://www.zshare.net/download/6116449669454bbf/ - Tactic Download is available here.

The individual settings are as listed below:

GK: Depending on the kind of keeper I have, I will play around with his mentality and CD.

FBs : Always have FWR often, and cross from byline. I only tweak this if my fullback is slow like Gary Neville, and is up against a fast attacker like Ashley Young, then will I change his FWR to rarely or mixed.

CBs: I play with a sweeper- stopper system. So the only change I make is that my right sided CB has a CD of 14 instead of Team CD setting at 15.

MCd: He acts as the shield for my defence and usually mops up any balls that have been pumped out by the opposition defence, hence his mentality is set at 2 clicks below global at 14, and closing down is set at 2 clicks above global at 15. He is given Hold up ball so as to act as the player to hold the ball while the offense reorganises itself after a period of intense pressuring by us.

MCa: I give him FWRs often, so that he supports the offence as a late runner into the box, and present himself as another offensive option. He has TTB often so that I have another player other than the AMC who can play other players in.

AMC: I have given him the highest mentality of the whole team, Mentality 17 and also CF 17as he is the one player I want to constantly attack. I do not want him to be tied up with his defensive duties and have thus given him CD 12 for that purpose. His FWR is set on mixed so as to act as the trequartista for my team, where he sprays the ball around the field and engineers attacking chances. At the same time, he also supports the striker by presenting himself as another attacker if he deems the time is right to run towards the penalty box.

AML/R: They have been given CF 16 as part of my offensive base together with my AMC. TTB, Cross Ball, RWB, cross from, are different for all wingers in all 3 teams that I use. Why so? Each winger I have is a different type of player from the other, and definitely of different quality as well, so these are the settings I will usually change from team to team. If lets say I am using Cristiano Ronaldo, I give him TTB rarely, Cross Ball rarely, RWB often, cross from byline, this enables him to cut in and score goals on a regular basis.Only 2 things constant are that their FWR is always on mixed so as to support the midfield (to a limited extent because of ME), as well as Long Shots which are placed on rarely, so as to prevent them from taking unnecessary long shots and thus foiling my attack plan prematurely.

ST: I do not have a particular preference for any kind of striker. But I have given him CF 15 and CD 15. FWR is set on mixed so that he gets involved in the buildup.

Results I have achieved so far are pretty good, especially with my lower league teams. Let's discount Man Utd as you can pretty much succeed with them with almost every tactic due to the quality of world class players they have at hand. So far, I have got HMD up from N-League and still sustaining 2nd place despite it being my debut season in the K-League. Same goes for Tonbridge Angels, at 2nd place in my debut season. I find this achievement so much better as the understanding and togetherness of players within both teams are no where near for my tactic to reach its fruition like it is when I employ at Man Utd. Currently, at Tonbridge Angels, my assman reports that "the current players have not yet developed a good level of understanding". As for HMD, my assman states "the players are blending well together".

Goals wise, they are pretty much evenly distributed throughout the team when I play as Man Utd, as for the 2 other teams, my striker tends to score the most, with my AMC getting regular assists and goals. The 2 wingers also get a decent number of assists throughout the game.

I do not setup 3 different types of my tactic aka defend, control, overload etc. Reason being I prefer to tweak certain settings teamwise or individually to improve performances.

As for the AMC bug which many players complain of, I rarely find it happening to my AMC. And even if the AMC does get low ratings for the 1st half, I will look at match stats to judge his involvement by looking at Pass Completed, Key Passes, etc. If my AMC gets marked out of the game or finds his involvement limited due to the opposition playing DMCs, I will move him back to midfield, and give him a Swap Position with the MCa to confuse the opponents.

Other than these, everything else that is not mentioned is set to Global. Passing wise, you will have noted that I have set it at 1 and tempo 15, I encourage fast, short attacking play which is a beauty to see with top class players. If I find that my team is not dominating possession or losing possession on a regular basis, I drop tempo by a click or so. Same for DL which has been set to 15, this is to constantly pressure the opposition, but if their strikers are regularly breakthrough my defence, I will either tweak DL by a click or two backwards, or move my MCd to DMC position to breakup play.

Anyone can download my tactic and use it. But the most important thing I would request when you download it is feedback be it positive or negative.

[mag man]

Not got as much time as I hoped (Tube strike), will try my best to get something up over the weekend.

My team settings are similar to you djkid85 but I play deep

[djkid85]

Not got as much time as I hoped (Tube strike), will try my best to get something up over the weekend.

My team settings are similar to you djkid85 but I play deep

Thats interesting, so would that mean you sit back a bit to invite the opposition out so that you would have more space to attack at the back?

One thing I find crucial in this formation, is the extra attacking option the FBs provide when given FWRs often, and they have been notching up a few goals as well as numerous assists when the chance provides itself. Hence, I always look at speed and stamina when I purchase fullbacks.

[mag man]

Yeha that the plan. It works quite well as long as the opposition dont have players who are lethal from distance.

[djkid85]

What happens when you play Barcelona or Arsenal then?

[mag man]

I unleash Essien

I would push up and give them less space in midfield.

[djkid85]

I unleash Essien

I would push up and give them less space in midfield.

Interesting.

A question for you magman, would there be any formations you have in particular that you find a a problem playing against?

When I use Man Utd, I don't get worried about any formations the opposition is using, because I tend to dominate the game. The most I go to is move my MCd to DMC to nullify their AMC.

But now when I play with Tonbridge Angels or HMD, I find problems with 352, 343 (one of the favourite formations in S Korea), where their midfield tends to outplay mine, and their forwards tend to run through my defence more than often. Usually I counter this by again moving my DMC back, and if needed, move my AMC to central midfield slot and get him to direct attacks from there. My FBs will have FWRs set to mixed to be able to track the strikers runs into the channels.

[mag man]

I dont find that there is a formation I struggle against but I am inconsistent. Sometimes I will just lose a game and I dont really know why.

[djkid85]

Perhaps its the quality of the players you have at Chelsea just like it was for me when I use it with Man Utd. But when I move down the leagues, I find more areas of concern and had to nullify them in certain matches to prevent the opposition from completely taking over the match.

[googoo56]

Unfortunately the ME is simply not good enough to implement a reasonable 4231...

First of all, you can't get the wide players cut in on a regular basis. Yeah, yeah, heard it all... play narrow: brilliant idea when you want to use the full width of the pitch...

Play left footed players on the right, right footed ones on the left: that's just a half solution again.

All in all, you can't get them do it properly and regurarly

Again a problem with wide players. AM R/L's never track back. No matter what stats they have for teamwork, work-rate, stamina, they just don't do it.

Fullback marking is totally messed up in the game. Not just their marking actually... Fullbacks are pretty messed up in general.

I tried playing a 4231 several times, set them up the following way: balanced mentality, little or normal creative freedom (tried both), often forward runs, often RWB, and short passing, no through balls.

Guess what they do... When having the option to actually take the ball forward or even passing it to my unmarked midfielder... No they won't do any of these. They'll play it LONG, I mean LONG, OVER THE TOP to the AM R/L's... Pure logic, right?

These issues should be enough to ruin the otherwise excellent 4231 formation. Quite sad

[SFraser]

Unfortunately the ME is simply not good enough to implement a reasonable 4231...

First of all, you can't get the wide players cut in on a regular basis. Yeah, yeah, heard it all... play narrow: brilliant idea when you want to use the full width of the pitch...

Play left footed players on the right, right footed ones on the left: that's just a half solution again.

It is far from half a solution. When supported by correct footed attacking fullbacks, wrong footed wingers are actually twice the solution of any other attacking system. Barcelona are not offensively potent by accident, nor was the wingplay of Rooney and Ronaldo for the last 2 seasons.

Infact the top 2 sides of the last 2 years employ precisely the system you call a "half measure". I employ the exact same concept in my highly offensive 4-4-2.

I also had to add holdupball to both the CMs as they weren't taking their time over things enough. The forwards, fullbacks and the wingers played brilliantly though.

The Match Engine cannot be both rubbish and brilliant in the exact same situation.

[googoo56]

I don't think you understand me SFraser.

Of course it's fantastic IRL but I was talking about the FM match engine.

[SFraser]

I don't think you understand me SFraser.

Of course it's fantastic IRL but I was talking about the FM match engine.

It was you that didn't understand me. Wrong footed Wingers supported by right footed fullbacks are the key to fantastic football in FM, when given sufficient Creative Freedom.

[googoo56]

For you, maybe

For me it's only a half solution, I can't get it to work properly. Not in a 4231, because full-backs are simply stupid in that formation (as I outlined in my earlier post), no matter what settings you give them.

It may work with a 442, but I'm not a fan of that.

[SFraser]

What do you expect from short passing, no through balls, limited creative freedom and a balanced mentality? You have instructed your fullback to either pass it to the guy in acres of space right next to him, or clear it. If you set his mentality to 1 he might just stay close enough to your Centrebacks to actually pass the ball, but then you force him into the ultra safe decision which probably means row Z.

[googoo56]

Well when they have acres of space ahead of themselves I'd expect them to run with it, taking it forward...

And when the guy (the midfielder) is near them, in space, free to receive the ball, and the fullback doesn't have the space to run forward with it... why not pass to him then? Why clear it? What's the twisted logic here, seriously?

[SFraser]

Well when they have acres of space ahead of themselves I'd expect them to run with it, taking it forward...

And when the guy (the midfielder) is near them, in space, free to receive the ball, and the fullback doesn't have the space to run forward with it... why not pass to him then? Why clear it? What's the twisted logic here, seriously?

The twisted logic is that if his only option other than clearing the ball is taking on the opponents entire flank untill help arrives within 2 metres and in acres of space, then he needs an attacking mentality that makes Ghengis Khan look like a coward.

[googoo56]

I'm not sure I'm following you.

He has options as I've said it a few times now.

a, There is a lot of space ahead of him. He could take it forward and by the time he's actually closed down, there will be my AMC my AML, and maybe even my MC offering him short passing options.

b, He is closed down earlier, he can't take the ball forward, but he has my MC offering him a clear short passing option.

I really don't get why should he keep punting the ball mindlessly upfield when he's clearly presented with better options.

[wwfan]

He might have options, but taking them would be contrary to managerial instruction, if I'm reading SFraser's comments correctly.

If you are telling your full back to look for short passes and not play through balls, plus ensuring he doesn't deviate from these instructions by employing low creative freedom, he will look for short passes and not hit through balls as instructed. With a defensive mentality, he will then choose to clear the ball instead of taking any offensive risks, such as surging forward into space. In essence, he is doing exactly what you are telling him to do. However, rather than accept this and make the requisite slider changes, you are choosing to blame the ME because it is 'obvious' as to what he should do. It may be obvious, but you have told him not to do it. If indeed it is obvious and you want him to do it, give him the right tactical instruction to encourage him to surge into space and hit direct through passes to the winger. Don't tell him not to do it and then blame the ME when he doesn't!!!

[googoo56]

Where did I say I have them on defensive mentality? I thought balanced was different from defensive, but then again, I'm no FM guru, I'm just a mortal man... Forgive me for that.

Yeah, clearly he's doing what I'm telling him to do. I'm telling him to pass the ball short, he does even have that option, instead he clears it like an idiot.

Anyway, keep ignoring the things I said (I wrote earlier that I've tried normal creative freedom instead of low), you can obviously get away with things like that...

[SFraser]

He has options as I've said it a few times now.

You think he has options. This is not the same as putting yourself in his shoes and understanding the effects of his attributes and his instructions.

a, There is a lot of space ahead of him. He could take it forward and by the time he's actually closed down, there will be my AMC my AML, and maybe even my MC offering him short passing options.

He cannot see multiple moves ahead. He cannot see how the AMC and AML and MC will offer him a pass after he has dribbled forward. He can dribble forward, yes, but his appreciation of the situation may be that he does not see this opportunity, or that he does not weigh it to be very beneficial or successful. Your mentality setting for this specific player mean that not dribbling forward and doing something else is better than dribbling forward, for him.

b, He is closed down earlier, he can't take the ball forward, but he has my MC offering him a clear short passing option.

If he is closed down then his decisions are impacted by composure. Ontop of that his passing range may be below the distance to the MC. Likewise the ball from the fullback to the MC may be a throughball, cutting out the closing down player. No matter the situation, his mentality forces him to balance all choices equally.

The problems are that you have given him a neutral mentality while telling him to run forward, and you have given him short passing and no through balls. This instructs him to make the shortest and safest pass possible, and to run forward as often as possible but only when it carries no risk. His Creative Freedom settings not only allow him to choose no alternatives, but may even remove his ability to choose to dribble forward.

His settings may make some kind of objective sense, but you have to apply these to a specific content of player attributes and situation, and you have to alter your settings according to this scenario.

The greatest assistance you could give your fullback is to increase his passing range to neutral and give him TTB Mixed. This will allow him to try passes that are slightly less risky than the dribbles you want him to attempt. You could also increase his mentality to encourage more risk taking behaviour, but above all else you could provide this player with greater numbers of better passing options through his passing settings and the positioning of players around him.

He might have options, but taking them would be contrary to managerial instruction, if I'm reading SFraser's comments correctly.

If you are telling your full back to look for short passes and not play through balls, plus ensuring he doesn't deviate from these instructions by employing low creative freedom, he will look for short passes and not hit through balls as instructed. With a defensive mentality, he will then choose to clear the ball instead of taking any offensive risks, such as surging forward into space. In essence, he is doing exactly what you are telling him to do. However, rather than accept this and make the requisite slider changes, you are choosing to blame the ME because it is 'obvious' as to what he should do. It may be obvious, but you have told him not to do it. If indeed it is obvious and you want him to do it, give him the right tactical instruction to encourage him to surge into space and hit direct through passes to the winger. Don't tell him not to do it and then blame the ME when he doesn't!!!

Just spotted this and Amen.

[wwfan]

The only difference between balanced and defensive for an FB without many options is that he'll hold onto the ball a little bit longer before clearing it.

If you want him to pass the ball short, you need to make sure he has at least two, usually three or four obvious passing options. If he only has the DC free, he won't pass to him if he believes it is a risky option, meaning he has to clear it once he judges holding onto the ball to be too risky.

Increasing low to normal CF may help a little, but it is not going to solve the fundamental problem of trying to obey your instructions, running out of passing options and being forced into clearing the ball.

Instead of making pointed personal attacks, you might try to learn from the advice given and give your FB more direct passing, the option of playing through balls and perhaps RWB mixed to take advantage of the space opening up in front of him.

[googoo56]

Why would he need multiple passing options? He's a fantastic player, he has one perfect option, why can't he use it? He has an MC who is in a lot of space, free to receive the ball. I really am interested, and this is not being personal now.

[googoo56]

"You think he has options. This is not the same as putting yourself in his shoes and understanding the effects of his attributes and his instructions."

Well, the best I can do is trying to interpret what I see. I see he has the option to run with the ball. He has balanced mentality, why is that stopping him to take the ball forward when he actually has the space and is not risky at all?

I see that he has a clear short passing option, the MC. Again, nothing risky with that pass.

"He cannot see multiple moves ahead."

And I don't want him to. I'm not sure what is your point with this.

"Likewise the ball from the fullback to the MC may be a throughball"

No it's not, I actually watch things like this very carefully.

[wwfan]

Upload a pkm and your tactic so we can have a look at your problem.

[SFraser]

He's a fantastic player, he has one perfect option, why can't he use it?

Perhaps if you had given him Maximum Creative Freedom, Neutral Passing, Neutral Mentality and Neutral Player Instructions then your fantastic player would take the perfect option?

"You think he has options. This is not the same as putting yourself in his shoes and understanding the effects of his attributes and his instructions."

Well, the best I can do is trying to interpret what I see. I see he has the option to run with the ball. He has balanced mentality, why is that stopping him to take the ball forward when he actually has the space and is not risky at all?

I see that he has a clear short passing option, the MC. Again, nothing risky with that pass.

"He cannot see multiple moves ahead."

And I don't want him to. I'm not sure what is your point with this.

"Likewise the ball from the fullback to the MC may be a throughball"

No it's not, I actually watch things like this very carefully.

What you think is "on" is irrelevant. Each player has their own mental attributes and their own ability to read the game. You either understand how they see the game rather than how you see the game, and how tactical instructions apply to them rather than you, or you do not see these things. When you apply tactical instructions it is not you that makes the critical decisions on an event by event basis. It is the player.

If he does not choose the obvious pass then either he cannot see it, or your instructions are forcing him not to choose it.

[googoo56]

All right, I'll try your suggested settings tomorrow and if it's still not working, I'll upload a pkm.

Just to make it clear, the actual settings you advise: slightly more attacking mentality, mixed passing, ttb mixed, forward runs mixed, normal creative freedom?

Anyway, I'm sorry if I was rude, it wasn't my intention, but from what I've seen you didn't read my original post where I outlined the issues in detail. I still could've handled the situation better, though, I admit that.

[wwfan]

Why would he need multiple passing options? He's a fantastic player, he has one perfect option, why can't he use it? He has an MC who is in a lot of space, free to receive the ball. I really am interested, and this is not being personal now.

The basic requirement of any sport is to put yourself in a position where you have as many options as possible, thus making your attacking plays difficult to defend against. Likewise, you want to reduce your opponent's options so you can force him into playing a certain way. Setting up a mode of play that deliberately or noticeably reduces your own playing options will only hurt your own team.

[wwfan]

All right, I'll try your suggested settings tomorrow and if it's still not working, I'll upload a pkm.

Just to make it clear, the actual settings you advise: slightly more attacking mentality, mixed passing, ttb mixed, forward runs mixed, normal creative freedom?

Anyway, I'm sorry if I was rude, it wasn't my intention, but from what I've seen you didn't read my original post where I outlined the issues in detail. I still could've handled the situation better, though, I admit that.

I was working more from SFraser's critique than your original post, so your judgment is fair. However, the reaction of 'oh, I am using balanced mentality and mid-range CF' is very defensive and stops you from learning, as they are not the key elements of the advice. Both are OK in certain situations and won't hurt how your FB plays as long as other, more vital settings are correct.

What you need to be looking to see your FB do is move into the space ahead of him and play a range of passes to the DC, MC and winger. To do that, first and foremost you will need to increase his passing directness (I always have my FBs on at least low direct passing) and add through balls. Mentality and creative freedom tweaks will simply increase the likelihood of the attacking versus possession pass, or the FB suddenly setting off on mazy dribble or trying to hit a killer TB to the FC. They only need to be altered in conjunction to what you are seeing the FB do and what you want him to do. If you are happy with the balls to the winger and possession pass percentages, then you don't need to alter mentality. If, however, you want to increase the number of aggressive direct balls down the flanks, tweak mentality upwards.