player error / mistakes / idiocy

[eaglealan64]

Basically the defenders suck.

Has anyone else experienced any of this?

Nope - now in my 4th season with Rangers, have just won the League with 29 games gone having only conceded 8 goals all year. I made buying good defenders a priority and you can clearly see the results from my stats and the match engine. I don't recognise the issues you list - may be specific to your players rather than the match engine??

[MrPompey]

anyone seen how Scott Carson plays.....plenty of those for England

[Spiveym]

Recently, I had a game a friendly against Man City, in my QPR save. I had been weathering pressure the entire game and somehow it was still 0-0. In like, the 88th min, a long ball to my goalie...who had a ST about 15 yds away....he CHESTS it down and away from him......into the path of their ST, who scores the winning goal..... I was shocked, and the only consolation I could think of, was the fact that it didn't happen in a cup final or something.

I've also had the problem with all of the defenders chasing after 1 guy as if in middle school gym class. I remember making tactics in 08, and having varying degrees of success. This year, my varying degrees are "You lose", "You're probably gonna lose", or my personal favorite "WOO!!!! 5 game winning streak......and now you lose 5 straight for no apparent reason"

I looked at the TT&F guide, but using any of the pre-made tactics goes against my point of playing, which is to make my own tactic through trial and error, not be handed the answer. The other versions of this game felt a lot better than this one, as I got more feedback as to what I was doing wrong......and my goalie didn't chest the ball into the path of opposing strikers........

It's bad enough figuring out a tactic is so hard now.....but when you add sunday league mistakes in championship football..........it's almost unbearable

Can someone from SI confirm that they have at least looked at the defenders chasing players bug?

I've noticed that if an opposition attacker is in possession of the ball, instead of one or two players doing the tracking, there can be up to 4 or 5 running after him. This totally exposes my defence - meaning all that is needed is a through ball/sideways pass and their strikers are one on one with my keeper (which usually results in a goal).

Man marking really needs to be looked at in my opinion.

[earmack]

All of these problems have been in every FM release. I'm fairly sure its indictive of a tactical weakness, but given there is no feedback how would anyone know for sure?

(I've had goalies come up for last minute corners in games I'm winning with defensive mentality {global and individual} in FM 06 and 08 {its not something you forget}, I've had defenders play ridiculous passes to the keeper that are intercepted in every FM etc...)

[earmack]

What annoys me most is player behavior when their team is supposed to be under pressure by the opposition. When a team is dominating' date=' the opposition players suddenly stop going for the ball, instead they crawl slowly towards it as if being stuck in mud. The goalkeepers and defenders refuse to hit a decent clearance, instead they'll wait until getting closed down or simply hit it into touch even when they have enough time to aim it at their forwards (or pass it to the midfielders who in these scenarios seem to be ignored). When a ball is hit towards the strikers they refuse to take it down to relieve the pressure, even when told to hold up ball. Instead they'll just head it on aimlessly, often in the direction they're facing when they could easily be taking it in their stride. All this contributing to the dominating team getting all the possession they want.[/quote']

I can't tell you the rage I feel when my players knock the ball out for a throw in under no pressure at all (literally no opposition players within 10 yards and even those A.I players nearby aren't moving to close down) especially when the A.I teams don't suffer from the same tactical ineptness I'm clearly displaying and thus their players only do likewise when my teams ripping their formation to pieces and they don't have an out ball.

[mlp071]

Heh, i just had my striker standing 3 yards from the empty net with no one around him, and instead of scoring, he kicked ball on side across the out line. Apparently one of the opposition players on the other side of the field was injured , so he thought it is fair play thing to do.

Did i got upset? No, but i did have good laugh about it.After all it is hilarious. And i didn't come rushing here to scream "bug" or "game is unplayable".

Dumb things like that happen in every game , one way or another.

[iamjerome]

Heh, i just had my striker standing 3 yards from the empty net with no one around him, and instead of scoring, he kicked ball on side across the out line. Apparently one of the opposition players on the other side of the field was injured , so he thought it is fair play thing to do.

Did i got upset? No, but i did have good laugh about it.After all it is hilarious. And i didn't come rushing here to scream "bug" or "game is unplayable".

Dumb things like that happen in every game , one way or another.

that's good sportmanship, completely different from what anyone else has described here. see paolo di canio a few years back.

[Wakers]

tried playing FM09 for half an hour again last night. in between the game constantly freezing, i played one game.

Two of my defenders at Celtic ran up to the ball after hit it the post (still happens too often btw) and blasted it into their own net when they were under no pressure. On both occasions, the GK stood and firstly watched the ball trickle against the post, and then stood on his line while the defender in question got a good run up from 20 yards away to blast the ball past him.

This ME is absolutely shocking. It's on a CM4 level.

[AB-forever]

tried playing FM09 for half an hour again last night. in between the game constantly freezing, i played one game.

Two of my defenders at Celtic ran up to the ball after hit it the post (still happens too often btw) and blasted it into their own net when they were under no pressure. On both occasions, the GK stood and firstly watched the ball trickle against the post, and then stood on his line while the defender in question got a good run up from 20 yards away to blast the ball past him.

This ME is absolutely shocking. It's on a CM4 level.

I don't understand why so many people are seeing this when I'm not. In my 20 games this season I haven't seen an own goal (yes the players sometimes do stupid things but there is a limit) and last season there were only about 3 own goals and none of them were stupid (mishaps or deflections).

[earmack]

I don't understand why so many people are seeing this when I'm not. In my 20 games this season I haven't seen an own goal (yes the players sometimes do stupid things but there is a limit) and last season there were only about 3 own goals and none of them were stupid (mishaps or deflections).

You're not seeing it (my guess since noone knows) because your tactic is getting your defensive unit working, whereas mine and others isn't, but instead of good attacking play from the opposition we see cretinous defence. Its VULGAR and almost certainly rude and also an ever present of the series. The game is far too complex to ever work properly (for properly read realistically), still good fun though.

[sirdez24]

I am at the point of despair here. I've now conceded 70 goals in 24 games since installing the patch, and my central defenders continue to run the wrong way and allow the opposition eight or nine clear one on ones a game with balls they should be cutting out comfortably.

On 9.0.1 I had the best defensive record in the league three years running. What can have changed so much? They're not even good goals I'm conceding now, just idiot defenders.

[sirdez24]

And here we have a wonderful example.

In the first screenshot, you can see my central defender is in his correct position, goal-side of the striker he is marking. Now, as you can see in the second screenshot the striker has turned to make a run. However, for some reason the defender continues to face the other way, and has actually commenced moving towards the ball carrier. The result, as seen in the third screenshot, is the striker now has a completely clear run at goal as the defender who was marking him suddenly realises he should probably turn around and is thus too far away to track him. Goal.

It is painfully obvious that instead of fixing defender movement (which was what caused most keeper assists), they've instead just limited keeper kicking ability.

[mlp071]

And here we have a wonderful example.

In the first screenshot, you can see my central defender is in his correct position, goal-side of the striker he is marking. Now, as you can see in the second screenshot the striker has turned to make a run. However, for some reason the defender continues to face the other way, and has actually commenced moving towards the ball carrier. The result, as seen in the third screenshot, is the striker now has a completely clear run at goal as the defender who was marking him suddenly realises he should probably turn around and is thus too far away to track him. Goal.

It is painfully obvious that instead of fixing defender movement (which was what caused most keeper assists), they've instead just limited keeper kicking ability.

You got 4 players closing on passer,2 of them leaving their marks, thus leaving attackers 1v1 with DC's. It was just matter of execution for them to get by defenders. If you look at first screen, attacker was in double coverage, but then one of the players left him and tried to close passer, leaving him pretty much wide open.There is not much that DC can do even IRL in situation like that, unless he is great quality.

In the last picture you have 3 attackers on 2 defenders(DC's) , with one DC being conservative because he has 2 players on his back.4 of your players are running from behind, trying to catch up.

Those 4 players that were closing in on 1 player, while leaving their marks, would be more bug then DC's movement, actually i am certain that DC's movement has nothing to do with bug.I thought that was fixed with 9.2 (closing part) but i guess it isn't.

Also , sadly, things like that can happen IRL,very rarely, but they still can.

Just out of curiosity , is that continued save from 9.1 or you started it in 9.2? I didn't see that with my 9.2 clean start, but that doesn't mean anything.

[sirdez24]

I know I end up with two defenders versus three attackers, my point is my instructions to them shouldn't have four of them closing down someone in the middle of the park. And that doesn't change the fact that the central defender highlighted makes a completely ridiculous movement away from the attacker before turning and chasing.

I'm conceding on average eight or nine CCCs a game with a flat back four since installing 9.0.2, after going at about a quarter of that on 9.0.1. hence I want to know what could have changed that much?

[mlp071]

I know I end up with two defenders versus three attackers, my point is my instructions to them shouldn't have four of them closing down someone in the middle of the park. And that doesn't change the fact that the central defender highlighted makes a completely ridiculous movement away from the attacker before turning and chasing.

I'm conceding on average eight or nine CCCs a game with a flat back four since installing 9.0.2, after going at about a quarter of that on 9.0.1. hence I want to know what could have changed that much?

Well, ST is coming into space, running full speed in straight line, and DC is already running backwards, thus he can't run in full speed.In order for DC to try to parry ST, he needs to turn and then accelerate which will take more time, then for ST to get into position. ON championship level and up , that is always advantage for ST IRL , and every ST would dream of situation like that.

In game terms , DC has to have at least superior agility , balance, acceleration, speed and positioning against that ST in order to match up.In IRL terms , only high quality DC would manage to beat ST in situation like that.

As for jerkiness of DC moves, that is lack of 3D animation in game, not him moving weird.

I don't think that that kind of closing( 4 on 1) is happening in every game , at least not that i have seen in my matches, so honestly i believe that you are maybe over committing your defenders by aggressively closing down everybody .Even IRL aggressive closing down brings the high risk of someone getting wide open.

If opponents strikers are getting to many times behind your players,it could be several different reasons for that.I don't close down every single player and i use OP to adjust which one i do, and it rarely leaves me open in the back.

Again , some people do get problems like yours and some don't , with only common thing so far being continued save against new save after the patch. However , it is not proven that is the cause of the problem.My defenders are doing generally what i asked them to do, and i conceded only 7 goals in 25+ matches so far, and for every single one of them i know why i conceded that one.

And yes, defensive behavior was changed quite a bit in 9.2 patch.From what i have been experiencing for better though. although it's still far from perfect.

If you think something is wrong, other then that 4 players closing 1 player issue , i would suggest you to upload pkm's and report on bug forums.

[Äktsjon Männ]

Well, ST is coming into space, running full speed in straight line, and DC is already running backwards, thus he can't run in full speed.In order for DC to try to parry ST, he needs to turn and then accelerate which will take more time, then for ST to get into position. ON championship level and up , that is always advantage for ST IRL , and every ST would dream of situation like that.

It's not what's happening on the screenshots though. What you see there is a common flaw with defending that has existed for as long as the 2D highlights have. A defender is marking his man (the striker), another attacking player carries the ball upfield, has several opposition players around him but none of them trigger the closing down move which would convince the deeper positioned defender to stay on his man. In reality there'd be no reason he should be the man to go closing down there, especially with another defender just ahead of him, closer to the ball and doing nothing of relevance. But still, he charges out, completely forgetting about his man (because he's not able to consider two scenarios at once) thus showing the ball carrier a perfect pass. No defender with any positional sense would do that IRL. They'd either wait until the player with the ball is close enough that it's possible to close down without leaving the perfect path for a pass wide open or tell the other man right ahead of him to handle it so he could stay on his man. In 9.1.0 (and in every version of FM 08 for that matter) this problem didn't occur as much simply because the attacking players were artificially handicapped so they often couldn't spot the obvious pass. Now they can again and this is causing frustration for many.

The defending in this game does not work realistically and never has. As for now we'll just have to accept the deficiencies and learn to get around them, not always by using common footballing sense but rather by understanding the flaws within this game. I've not completely figured it out yet, but I've had some luck with the back four and a defensive minded midfielder on loose man marking and medium closing down. Seems to make them less prone to leaving their men. Still happens every once in a while though.

[Wakers]

It's not what's happening on the screenshots though. What you see there is a common flaw with defending that has existed for as long as the 2D highlights have. A defender is marking his man (the striker), another attacking player carries the ball upfield, has several opposition players around him but none of them trigger the closing down move which would convince the deeper positioned defender to stay on his man. In reality there'd be no reason he should be the man to go closing down there, especially with another defender just ahead of him, closer to the ball and doing nothing of relevance. But still, he charges out, completely forgetting about his man (because he's not able to consider two scenarios at once) thus showing the ball carrier a perfect pass. No defender with any positional sense would do that IRL. They'd either wait until the player with the ball is close enough that it's possible to close down without leaving the perfect path for a pass wide open or tell the other man right ahead of him to handle it so he could stay on his man. In 9.1.0 (and in every version of FM 08 for that matter) this problem didn't occur as much simply because the attacking players were artificially handicapped so they often couldn't spot the obvious pass. Now they can again and this is causing frustration for many.

The defending in this game does not work realistically and never has. As for now we'll just have to accept the deficiencies and learn to get around them, not always by using common footballing sense but rather by understanding the flaws within this game. I've not completely figured it out yet, but I've had some luck with the back four and a defensive minded midfielder on loose man marking and medium closing down. Seems to make them less prone to leaving their men. Still happens every once in a while though.

This is perfectly true. Defenders have been neglected ever since the 2d engine was introduced.

[PaulC]

Pls chaps, log these with pkms on the bugs forums so we have a chance to assess them for 9.3.

[RobinGoodey]

It's not what's happening on the screenshots though. What you see there is a common flaw with defending that has existed for as long as the 2D highlights have. A defender is marking his man (the striker), another attacking player carries the ball upfield, has several opposition players around him but none of them trigger the closing down move which would convince the deeper positioned defender to stay on his man. In reality there'd be no reason he should be the man to go closing down there, especially with another defender just ahead of him, closer to the ball and doing nothing of relevance. But still, he charges out, completely forgetting about his man (because he's not able to consider two scenarios at once) thus showing the ball carrier a perfect pass. No defender with any positional sense would do that IRL. They'd either wait until the player with the ball is close enough that it's possible to close down without leaving the perfect path for a pass wide open or tell the other man right ahead of him to handle it so he could stay on his man. In 9.1.0 (and in every version of FM 08 for that matter) this problem didn't occur as much simply because the attacking players were artificially handicapped so they often couldn't spot the obvious pass. Now they can again and this is causing frustration for many.

The defending in this game does not work realistically and never has. As for now we'll just have to accept the deficiencies and learn to get around them, not always by using common footballing sense but rather by understanding the flaws within this game. I've not completely figured it out yet, but I've had some luck with the back four and a defensive minded midfielder on loose man marking and medium closing down. Seems to make them less prone to leaving their men. Still happens every once in a while though.

Having seen those screenshots, I was just going to suggest exactly that same thing - I've had my DC's and MCd on tight man marking in 9.1, and have had some success in cutting out all the through balls that now happen in 9.2 by removing the tight marking. It's still not perfect - but at least it gives the DC an extra couple of yards advantage to track back when the pass is played (since they don't get as close to their man until they have to)

[Amaroq]

Paul - thanks for taking the time to address this thread - and on Christmas Eve, no less. A jealous from the States here - you set a standard of customer service that the rest of us (in the industry) can only envy.

My experience of 9.2.0 has been very good; I feel like defender movement has made a dramatic step forward.

However, I still see "foolish" things when Mentality is set too low. I suspect that a lot of users don't realize that the sliders and settings are position-dependant; in other words, that a DC on Mentality 10 and "Mixed" Forward Runs plays his position very well ... and that by reducing Mentality and setting "Rarely" Forward Runs, you're changing the player's role to become overly conservative; he begins to err on the side of "safety".

Much of the specifics that have been brought up in this thread seem to have Tactical solutions, to me. For example:

1/ Defenders trying to play the ball back to the keeper, under no pressure, but kicking it too hard one side of the goal for a corner.

2/ Defenders mopping up a loose ball out wide after a corner and blasting it into row Z and conceding the corner when there wasn't an attacker within 20 yards of him.

This is a result of Mentality being too low. With Mentality up around 8-10, I'm not seeing these.

4/ Defenders (or any other player) not reacting to a loose ball AT ALL. For example, there is a ricochet off a player and ball is loose just outside the area but the defenders just follow their strict pattern of zonal marking even though it's 2 yards away and instead leave it to the striker that has covered 30 yards to blast it in.

This is one I notice most on Forward Runs "Rarely". On Forward Runs "Mixed", central defenders are much more likely to step forward to claim a loose ball, even if they are the last man.

Also, I felt like the 9.2.0 patch did a much better job of this.

5/ Defenders all chasing the same ball. I've lost count how many times the ball is being played around the area and after a few seconds my entire back 4 are surrounding the one attacker for the ball, even on zonal marking and low closing down stats. So of course the attacker just flicks it over the lot of them to a free man who scores.

I'm absolutely not seeing this - in fact, I sometimes feel like it has gone too far the other direction; I'd like to see more situations where two players from the same side react towards the same ball.

In the first screenshot, you can see my central defender is in his correct position, goal-side of the striker he is marking. Now, as you can see in the second screenshot the striker has turned to make a run. However, for some reason the defender continues to face the other way, and has actually commenced moving towards the ball carrier. The result, as seen in the third screenshot, is the striker now has a completely clear run at goal as the defender who was marking him suddenly realises he should probably turn around and is thus too far away to track him. Goal.

I suspect that this one is a result of having too high "Closing Down" on your central defenders. I typically set mine to a fairly low (6-7) or very low (2-3-4) setting, depending on the rest of my tactical approach. If I have a central defender on medium-to-high Closing Down, I see that exact move all too often.

In fact, I wonder if that's why I'm not seeing Sy's #5; if I have Closing Down a bit lower than the typical player does, maybe that's why I rarely see multiple players charging the same loose ball .. though it doesn't explain why I'm not noticing that in the AI.

. . .

Based on all of the above, when I look at the default "Player Instructions" set up for a central defender - e.g., what you get when you use "Set To: Centre Back" - I find the Mentality setting to be extremely low. I'd also recommend bumping the Forward Runs setting to "Mixed".

. . .

Other confounding factors may include player Mental attributes - I value very highly the attribute Decisions, along with ancillary attributes like Anticipation, Teamwork, Work Rate, and Concentration, so I'm probably less likely to see intentional defender errors via the match engine ... but on the other hand, I'm slogging around the BSP at the moment, so my "high Decisions" players have scores like 11 and 12.

[iamjerome]

an act of idiocy that went in my favour just now. i am napoli, controlling a game against real madrid at bernebau but with no luck in finishing but luckily these events take place:

1.casillas picks up a long ball, has time and space

2. decides to cut it square to marcelo (guy in front of goal)

3. his passing stat quite clearly lets him down

"OOF."

[mlp071]

Things like that one with Casillas were happening in last several versions of FM and it's serious bug /miscalculation on game part. People have to understand that some ME mistakes are much more obvious now with 3D. That is great , because SI will have easier time to fix them.

As for other bugs that people are reporting being consistent, i am posting some of pkm's from my 9.2 clean save. I only lost 2 games(i'll post both) so far out of 25+ , and my defense conceded 11 goals.In all 3 cases AI team was heavy favorite and they had way better players then me(Petersborough is 2-3 league tiers above me):

http://rapidshare.com/files/176548189/Newport_Co_v_Peterborough.pkm

1st goal for Peterborough was GK assist, and that was only major bug that i noticed in my games so far. It happened only in this game though.

http://rapidshare.com/files/176548216/Worcester_v_Newport_Co.pkm

Before anyone says something, second goal for Worcester is legit for me, my DC was alone with ST and got caught on wrong foot in counter.

http://rapidshare.com/files/176548119/Bath_v_Newport_Co.pkm

Last game that i just played, i do not see any "bug " behavior mentioned in posts above(like closing). In all 3 games defence is doing what i was expecting them to do, and goals are not result of any bugs (exception GK assist one).

Feel free to review and see it for yourself, if you find anything i am more willing to discuss it, since i know what personal and OP tactics i used in any of them.

Just fyi, i do not state that game is flawless or such , but it is not that horrible as people are claiming to be. and i am not tactical FM genius,but rather casual mediocre player that is having fun.