Club DNA: El rondo

[cmonreds]

The first post is edited with what works after testing different tactics and training schedules IRL as per 5th of January 2024.

Introduction

El rondo

Closer aquintance to El rondo by this Youtube link: Barcelona performing El Rondo. This sums up  how the team should play. Quick passing in confined areas as well as skilled at pressing and regaining possession when loosing the ball.

Implications

• The team should dominate possession. 
• The team should be able to regain possession and restart the passing play.
• Barcelona with La Masia and youth development benefits of developing players able to play in their tactical system/style. Currently Barcelona are the top ranking team for possession in the five major leagues in Europe. Per 18th of December they average 64.7 % in possession in La Liga (Source). The same systematic approach of developing their own youngsters and required attributes should be taken for a less reputable club, when trying to tailor youth development towards their style of play and Club DNA.

Club: Stade Rennais

• Stade Rennais (Clubs homepage) or Rennes in English is a club known to develope youngsters. Recent transfers are Doku to Man City, Ugochukwu to Chelsea and Tel to Bayern Munich. Besides those they are one of the clubs developing most players playing in both the Ligue 1 and the biggest five leagues in Europe.
• I have been playing with this club since FM2022. I know this club and their players from playing FM. This makes it a lot easier to benchmark and discover what works and does not work for the different approaches to managing a club.
• Major benefits for choosing this club is a good club infrastructure for player development already in place, as well as the boards eagerness to continue improving on it and develope the best youth development system in France. France is also being one of the top nations for regens and new talent in the game which to a larger degree enables the possibility of recruiting and developing own players.
• The current squad has a good 1st eleven with good youth prospects outside the the first picks. The team are particulary strong in midfield and the main weakness are the defence and the goalkeepers. Future transfers incoming should be a goalkeeper able to play as a SK (att), a central defender able to play as Lib (supp) and preferrably a defensive midfielder strong in both in/out of possession.
• Most notable players: Current ability : **** Terrier, ***/*Blas , Bouriegeaud, Gouri, Santamaria, Matic 
• Most notable players: Future Potential (room for improvement/top potential): ***** D.Doue, ****/* Abline (loan), Gbeme (U19), Akwa (U19), **** Lambourde, Belocian, Jacquet, Alemdar (loan), 

Methods

Tactics -  Main tactic is control (positive mentality), dominate (attacking mentality) and cautious (balanced mentality) are used dependant of the match and in-match scenario.

Set-pieces - regarded as a situation to continue the short passing game. Set-pieces are not trained but this can be included in the training schedules for those who wants to emphasize this. For the 2nd season 8 goals were scored from corners and only 1 conceded (best in the league).

Downloads: Cautious_el Rondo_2-3 RD.fmf Control_el Rondo_2-3 RD.fmf Dominate_el Rondo_2-3 RD.fmf Set Pieces_tiki taka_(Pep_Barca).fmf

Why the tactics work: With the tactic the team is compact both in and out possession, enabling immediate effective counter pressing, quick positional transitions and central overloads enabling quick short passing. The team controls the central area of the pitch both in and out of possession. The team are challenging to play against and the easiest way for the opposition is to go wide in possession. This is where the pressing traps occurs and for this to work sufficiently OI's are used. If failure to apply effective pressing traps the team can be outplayed from the flanks. Also this poses demands on minimum requirements of the players attributes/ability to master this tight and contested space (technical/passing/movement) as well as ability/attributes for pressing. If these abilities/attributes are lacking the tactic will be much less effective. In possession the shape of the tactic is a compact 2-3-2-3 (WW). The tactic has a large degree of positional freedom in possession, all players except the two LIB's and the DM are roaming. This leads to players swapping positions and using the available space in position, also out wide when this is necessary. 

 

• Very fluid with abundance of support duties, contributing both in and out of possession. This can ensure that players are moving towards the player with ball, posing as passing outlets and creating numerical superiority in the ball zone, as well as leading to cohesive and collective pressing where the team press as one unit.
• Mentality: Positive, balanced and attacking mentality is changed between dependant of the opposition and in-match scenario.
• Rest defence set-up: The 2-3 rest defence is used mainly because of three players in the 2nd line which enables effective counter pressing and puts the opposition under pressure.
• In possession: TI's used are to stimulate and ensure (be more discliplined) quick short passing where players are positioned in close proximity to each other. This will most likely lead to confined and tightly congested areas/spaces in possession. Roles and positioning (in possession team shape) aims to create triangles/diamonds to enhance the selected passing play. The tactic stands or fall with the players ability and mastery of these confined/congested spaces/areas.
• Transitions to in possession, the team holds shape to keep the passing patterns trying to be established with numerical/positional superiority around the player with the ball. The number of players and positioning around the ballplayer also increases the quality of the counter press in transition out of possession if the ball player looses the ball at his feets. The compactness in possession leads to quick transitions towards out of possession shape. The GK are given role and instructions which gives freedom to pass the ball as he sees fit with a bias towards short passes.
• Out of possession: The narrow width and compactness in possession leads to quick transitions for counterpress as well as the team quicker establishing its defensive shape in a high and compact pressing block. The high pressing block is compact both vertical and horizontal/lateral. The opposition should be led towards the sideline with the ball when they are in possession. The tactic do not mark opposition defenders to prevent their GK distribution, as this can compromise the vertical compactness of the pressing block. The preference is to maintain the block and press in it if their defenders receive the ball from the GK.
• PI's, shorter passing for all positions, shoot less often and roaming to all roles this can be assigned to, IW's and CM's get further forward, Libero and DM holds position. All roles where it can be altered has dribbling set to mixed.
• Summary: The tactic is quite defensive, sacrificing width to maintain ability to counter press and rapidly press as an unit when loosing the ball. PI's for the IW's are not set to stay wider, this is done for the same reason as well as the danger for them being to isolated if given. The offensive weakness of the tactic is when playing against opposition also being compact where this can make it more difficult to create good goalscoring opportunities. The defensive weakness are the space given away behind own defence and on the flanks. The intensity of the tactic is kept at reasonable level. This should prevent some injuries and fatigue as well as keeping players conditions higher throughout the season and enhance training and development.
• OI's: The compact shape and TI trap outside leads to default OI settings as image below. The weakness/available space for the opposition is the wide areas. This has to be dealt with and OI's are applied to their wide players. Before each match the OI's can be changed dependant on individual players strenghts/weaknesses to prevent the danger they pose.First of all a weak foot leads to players showed onto this no matter what. Typical right footed wingers/fullbacks/wingbacks with good crossing abilities are forced inside/showed onto left foot, whilst left footed inverted winger/forwards/IWB's/IFB's with good finishing or creativity/passing are forced outside/showed onto right foot. This rule can not be applied for all players (some are two footed and good at both cut inside and wing play) and sometimes discretionary judgement also considering their style of play has to be considered. If no clear benefit can be identified (considering other opposition players as well) no OI for that player is given. These OI's doesn't affect the tactic too much and are the ones that have worked for me. This is not carved in stone and some of you might find OI's that works even better. If so, please share in the thread.

Example of use of OI's:

1st get a general impression of how hte opposition will play, style of play and roles.

Based on their wide players strengths and preferred foot this is OI's applied. Ito can pose a threat either way and the match is started with no OI's for him.

• Team cohesion is of the uttermost importance for the tactic as this influences the cohesiveness in pressing/defensive positioning and passing offensive movement. vs 
• Player requirements: For all positions a minimum level for the technical and mental attributes on the image below is needed. For the positions playing in the most congested area higher levels are needed. Physically agility, quickness and stamina are after sought attributes. Speed is most important for the defenders and the IW's, and a huge benefit for the DLF as his roaming often leads to him threatening the space behind the opposition defenders.                          

 

Training - due to limited uploads training images/schedules is moved to the 4th post of this thread. Explaining and showing results that leads to rationale for used schedules.

• Priorities - Aims for training is to rapidly increase team cohesion and tactical familiarity. Well rouned development of players suited to playing in the presented tactic. Prepare the team for matches as well as injury prevention.
• The effect of squad size on training: Larger squads will have more players not playing matches. I prefer smaller squads (1st: 23-25, Res: 18ish, Youths: 18ish) where all players gets a decent amount of playing time. The training schedules have been designed with that in mind. All players will get matches and this affects the intensity of training and the schedules.
• Methodoloy for training: Training intensity and player conditions effect training outcome. The tactic and different training schedules/weeks has been created with this in mind. Players with higher condition can train at a higher intensity and I use the current settings.
• Schedules: The training schedules utilizes sessions from the general, match preparation and physical (recovery) categories. Some weeks dependant on fixtures and travels enables broader training of attributes due to more sessions. Match practice sessions have highest priorities to train as these trains individual roles, to a high degree team cohesion and tactical familiarity. Of the general sessions possession are emphasized as well as aiming for one session with physical for most weeks. Match tactics are trained before every match. 
• Schedules for reserve and youth teams: The training schedules for the reserve and youth team has no match tactics/match practice session and they are replaced with a general sessions . They also have increased intensity in training for some of the days. This is due to the focus on developing players instead of winning matches and at the younger age they can endure higher training intensity. Keeping players in the youth and reserve team gives them more time to train and develope. This is the main reason why they are kept in those squads untill they reach the year of 18. Before this age training is most important for player development. 
• Training of roles and individual focus: I am not entirely sure if it is best to train the youth team without role training and just individual focus or to train them in roles/several roles. I have had good results with the former. For this save game I will start with training youth players in their roles and train them for serveral roles as well. Players in the reserves team are trained in their playing roles as well the 1st team. For reserve/youth team individual focus are trained with emphasis on ball controll, passing, attacking movement/defensive positioning, agility and acceleration/pace. Players decent in these areas as well as 1st team players have individual focus on weaknesses or focusing on strengths for their role.
• Feeder clubs: A network of feeder clubs playing at the minimum level of Ligue 2 in France or the top divisions in other good European leagues are needed for those players too good to stay in the reserves, and not yet able to get playing time in the 1st team.

Management

• Importance of feedback, building relationships, has effect on both match and training performance, happiness and loyalty. Research points to feedback IRL as important for performance, motivation and job satisfaction. How giving feedback and communicating with players in FM simulates how feedback can be given similiar to management styles.
• Management style, supportive and focusing on motivation in all communication with players. 
• Squad sizes has effect on amount of coaches and physios/sports scientists required to enhance training (coaches workload) and prevent injuries. Keep squad size at a level where the club can afford/allow the different staff.
• Keeping players match fit - if there is a problem with this in your squad you have to many players compared to competitions and matches. Important both for matches, training and injury prevention.
• Strategy - recruitment: Players that now or in the future can be able to play within the tactical system/style of play. Good coaches improves several/all players, good physios/sports scientists prevents injuries of the existing players. Compare this to the expenses of buying players.
• Strategy - Club Infrastructure: All facilities, youth coaching, youth recruitment network improves the existing players or the upcoming players. Compare this to the expenses of buying players.

Results

This thread is started on the date 10th of july 2023 in the game. As the save game progress I will regularly post results for matches, competitions and development, as well as updates for transfers and things learned or experienced during the save game. Match updates will be updated on a monthly in-game frequency and training and competitions will be updated with a yearly in-game frequency. 

Objectives (1st season - 2nd season the same for the competitions)

 

Matches

Against weak opposition at home, 3-0 victory over Auxerre. Dominate/attacking mentality.

Against medium opposition at home. 3-0 victory over Strasbourg. Dominate/attacking mentality.

 

Competitions

As Rennes does not have the squad to be competitive  in all competitions the primary focus are initially on the league. Position and stats will be derived from Ligue 1.

• Only transfers are in summer before the 2nd season: Lafont (GK), Roault (DC) and Gueye (DMC). Of these three Lafont is played in the 1st eleven, the others are squad rotation or for the future.

2023-24

2024-25

PSG remaining fixtures whom Rennes narrowly lost the league title to.

Stats 2nd season:

In possession

Benchmarked against Barcelona IRL 64,7 % so far this season. In game Feyenoord, Real Madrid and Benfica in their respective leagues had the highest possession at 63%. Rennes possession and pass completion is the highest for playable leagues (England, France, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, Portugal and Spain). As @yonko pointed out Barcelona at the heights under Guardiola achieved possession at 67 %. That could be possible with this tactic with very good players.

High number of chances created compared to shots for, ranked 8th (shots for). Ratio chances created and shots for are 152/365=0,42. PSG's numbers 206/529=0,39

Out of possession

xGA

Player development

• Moved to 4th post of this thread

Discussion

• I hope it has been made clear what I want to acchieve in my game. I am sure that I have not fully understood or chosen the best solutions in every aspect of managing in FM. Hints and tips for improvement are most welcome, that is the main reason for starting this thread. More brains finds better solutions - your contributions are welcomed. I will update with my findings on what works well with the current approach and what does not work so well. Thanks to everyone contributing to the thread and discussing it.

Edited January 5 by cmonreds

[cmonreds]

Changes to the tactic to create more chances

Timeline

1) Origin: The first very fluid tactic I used, gave quite good results and using almost identical TI's and PI's. Three players at the back providing defensive balance/rest defence (red triangle) and CWB's maintaining width. It is my impression when playing very fluid and short passing tactics that you need to have a sufficient amount of players going forward to contribute in the passing play. This tactic acchieved that. The main weakness is just three players at the back as well as just 6 central players.   

 

2) Current tactic: Issue 1) Fewer players contributing with forward runs - The changes made to the tactic was to increase the numbers and strength in central areas. Now five players are staying back and providing defensive balance/rest defence (DM and LIB has hold position). The upside is stronger defence and the downside is weaker offence. This has effectively decreased the number of players going forward and contributing to the attacking play. The current set-up can work for tactics with attacking duties that to a larger extent early on threatens the space behind the opposition defence. But for what I want to acchieve and how to play this is clearly not working sufficiently. The randomness in football and FM will lead to bad runs of results more often when not producing and creating chances.

               

2) Current tactic: Issue 2) Lack of width - The IW's are naturally positioned wide. In the origin tactic they sat narrower to come closer to the DLF for passing play, creating space for the CWB's as well as posing a more central threat for goalscoring. In the current tactic they sit either narrow or stay wider. This doesn't sufficiently maintain width and the result is opposition which are compact in their shape, effectively hinders our chance creation leading to an increase in long shots and blocks. The IW's roaming will lead to theme sometimes going wider (also the opposition forces them outside) and the IFB's will also sometimes venture forward down the flanks, but not at a sufficient rate.

3) Possible solutions: The changes to the tactic needs to a larger degree to maintain width (Issue 2) as well as bringing more players forward to contribute to the short passing game (Issue 1). The change to the tactic to do this shouldn't to drastic change the overall tactic and shape.

Solutions to issue 1 - too few players contributing in passing play in the forward areas of the pitch:

• Remove hold positon for the LIB and DM ? This will probably just pack a small area of the pitch with more players and not contribute to creating good passing patterns
• Reduce the rest defence to four players ? This is a possible solution that still will bring more defensive strength compared to the original tactic with just 3 players in the rest defence. This can be done in several ways (also based on the oppositon formation/pressing), either a 2-2 box or a 3-1 set-up. Which chosen has alos impact on on how width can be created and they can each be perfomed in multliple ways by adding one player going forward either centrally or a fullback. Examples below:

2-2 box rest defence: 

 

3-1 rest defence:  

 

Solutions to issue 2 - lack of attacking width:

By reducing the rest defence to four players this gives one player extra to send forward. This player can be used to create width in several ways dependant on if the player is positoned wide or central.

Wide player (CWB) going forward in a 3-1 rest defence

Roles changed: LB to CWB, RB to CD, RMC to Mezzala

PI's changed: LMC no forward runs, left IW sit narrower, right  IW stay wider

This gives more width on both sides which can create more space centrally. Advantage is added width in the build-up on the left side. This can lead to 4-5 players in the front line during attacks in a 3-3-4 and sometimes 3-2-5 shape. The benefit of a 3-1 rest defence is that the widest defender in the back three can sometimes offer wide support, as well as a back three offers better support/width as passing outlets for players under pressure. 3-1 rest defence theoretically should be well suited against opponents with two attackers.

Wide player (CWB) going forward in a 2-2 box rest defence

Roles changed: LB to CWB, RCM to Mezzala

PI's changed: LMC no forward runs, left IW sit narrower, right  IW stay wider

This could be well suited against opponent formations with just one striker. Either the LCM, DM or Libero could be allowed forward runs as well dependant on where the extra man is most needed, preferably the Libero holds position due to the Mezzala in front of him going forward. Centrally strong set-up but might be vulnerable to opponents countering down the flanks.

Central player (RMP) going forward in a 3-1 rest

Roles changed:DM to RPM, alternatively both CM's can be changed to Mezzala's or a mix with Mezzala and AP.

PI's changed: IW's stay wider, CM's stay wider (also forward runs)

This makes the whole attacking set-up wider and could possible weaken the high block and players positioned further apart. Stronger in the wide areas and IFB's also providing a minimum of support on their sides. In central areas this is dependant of the RPM's ability to go forward.

Central player (RMP) going forward in a 2-2 box rest defence

Roles changed: LB to IWB, DM to RPM, alternatively both CM's can be changed to Mezzala's or a mix with Mezzala and AP.

PI's changed: IW's stay wider, CM's stay wider (also forward runs)

This has as little more central defensive cover as the rest defence is centrally positioned.  Either the LIB or the IWB can be given forward runs for increased support to offensive play.

Edited December 19, 2023 by cmonreds

[cmonreds]

In possession the most important thing is to create triangles/diamonds for passing patterns. Below are images showing average positions in possession and how these can be changed dependant on rest defence set-ups.

2-1: CM's roaming, CWB's forwards runs, IW's sit narrower

2-3: Mezzala's, IWB's, IW's stay wider

3-2: Mezzala's, IWB & IFB, IW's stay wider

3-2: Mezzala's, IWB & IFB, IW's stay wider, DC's stay wider

3-2: Mezzala's, IFB's & Libero, IW's stay wider, DC's stay wider

For me the first and last image has the best positoning which can enable good passing patterns, and width as well. The first (2-1) is the origin tactic whilst the last are the current tactic with Mezzala's and IW's stay wider, as well as CF (supp). To increase chance creation and xG it is not the roles or positioning that is at fault. The tactic can be in need of attacking duties to acchieve this.

Also passing shorter as PI can be removed (TI shortest passing already) for some positions in the 3-2 with IFB's and Libero (last image). Thinking about the IFB's and IW's for them to be able to pass to all players in their diamonds and triangles (IFB's to IW's and IW's to CF).

Positioning with CM's in the current 3-2 set-up (3-2 (DC's stay wider) IFB's/LIB & CM's):

This doesn't create very good diamonds/triangles. Players are positioned closed to eachother centrally and deep/middle of the pitch. With short passing this gives high possession numbers, but mainly in the wrong area of the pitch. The percentage of progressive/attacking passes will be lower and this will not create good chances measured in xG.

Positioning as above with CM's move into channels

Slightly increases width for the CM's but this is not sufficient to create satisfying passing patterns.

CM's stay wider

Width is better but the depth is the same, the CM's should be positioned higher up the pitch. The centre of the pitch is to congested by own players

CM's move into channels with attacking duty

This is better but at the expense of adding two attacking duties, which can have a negative effect on defence. The tactical fluidity with this set-up is described as flexible.

Another option with a 2-3 / 2-2-1 rest defence

2-3: FB's / Libero's, IW's stay wider, DM changed to RPM, MC's move into channels with attacking duty

Man City has set-up similiar this season. Two IFB's in a 2-3 set-up. This also has potential for good passing patterns, where the six sentral players alone positions in three possible diamonds. In this set-up the SK and the IFB's need to be able to pass the ball under pressure. Also the two at the back are positioned very wide, still this could be a good option against formations with just one central attacker.

2-3: FB's / Libero's, IW's stay wider, Mezzala's (support), DM changed to RPM

The same with Mezzala's, several matches needs to be played to verify that the difference in positioning with support duties for the MC's compared to using attacking duties is not making the Libero's stay back.

Next analytics that can be checked

• How the tactic will affect the quickness of transitioning from either in possession / out of possession shapes to the other. This can be checked by comparing average positioning for these. 
• Compare average position in possession with average position for passing, see if there is any patterns.

 

Summary:

The current roles/duties/PI's for the MC's needs to changed. The following solutions and implications are considered:

• Mezzala's on support: Change their roles as the average positioning for Mezzala's indicates that this will create better passing patterns higher up the pitch, possibly leading to better chance creation. Support duties are preferred and this is weighted in the decision making.
• CM's on attacking duty: Change duties from support to attack and PI's move into channels. Average positioning with these changes indicates the same as for Mezzala's. Benefit is also attacking duty with penetration, drawback is potential weakened defensive balance as well as reducing support duties with fluidity described as flexible.
• Two tactical set-ups: 1) Evolve the existing 3-2 with either Mezzala's or CM's with attacking duty 2) Create the 2-3 / 2-2-1 with two IFB's as back line to use against formations with 1 central attacker

Decided tweaks:

• Mezzala's on support for both the 3-2 and 2-2 version. Also no hold position for the DM and Libero in the 3-2 version, as well as no hold position for the Libero's in the 2-2 version.
• Will test the 3-2 version with for a couple of matches with attacking duty for both IW's and see how that fares and get an impression, before continuing to use the tweaked tactics as very fluid.

TI crosses set to mix and this is the 3-2 and 2-2 rest defence versions of the tactic:

 

IGNORE the next two images, they are repeated from above, i do not dare to delete them in danger of deleting an image used/positioned above..

Edited December 20, 2023 by cmonreds

[cmonreds]

Training and schedules

First team schedules focusing on broad development of attributes and slightly biased towards possession, various individual focuses used for two seasons.

First team - images of players at development age and potential staying with the club for the two seasons.

Left: 5th august 2023 Rigth: 18th May 2025

Lambourde

 

Belocian

  

D. Doue

 

 Jacquet 

  

A. Truffert

 

Kalimuendo

  

Omari

 

Theate

 

Rieder

 

Youth players promoted to the reserve team and staying with the club for the two seasons

Images showing improvement in attributes for the most promising players. Important for deciding upon schedules and development for the youth and reserve team.

Top: Schedules with match practice sessions and training for roles and additional individual focus Bottom: Schedules without match practice sesseions and not training for roles and only additional individual focus. Everything else being as equal as possible, improvement of training facilities, coaches, physios etc. Injury history can affect results and players with known longer term injuries are excluded for comparison.

Rosier

Akwa

Coulibaly

Coutadeur

Ake

Summary: There are no clear patterns in difference between the different methodologies/schedules for youth/reserves training. The schedules with no role training has 1 more general physical session compared to role training schedules. This benefits the physical development at the younger ages. This is preferable and these schedules is my preference. These will be used on players untill they go on loan or are moved to the 1st team. In the 1st team they will train for roles with the 1st team schedules.

Training schedules for download, no match used both for 1st and reserves/youth team. Pre-season only for 1st teamPre Season.fmfNo Match.fmf1_Friday.fmf1_Saturday.fmf1_Sunday.fmf2_Tuesday Saturday.fmf2_Tuesday Sunday.fmf2_Wednesday Saturday.fmf2_Wednesday Sunday.fmf2_Thursday Sunday.fmfyth_1_Friday.fmfyth_1_Saturday.fmfyth_1_Sunday.fmfyth_2_Tuesday Saturday.fmfyth_2_Tuesday Sunday.fmfyth_2_Wednesday Saturday.fmfyth_2_Wednesday Sunday.fmfyth_2_Thursday Sunday.fmf:

 

 

 

Edited January 5 by cmonreds

[cmonreds]

August 2023: "Tiki Tacatenaccio"

First competitive month unfolded as expected tactics wise against mostly bottom half teams. Beaten by Lens which are a decent team. Out of possession already mostly decent performances, whilst in possession the tactic is not sparkling. Hopefully this will be better as team cohesion and player development progresses. Still early in the progress and when leading mentality is switched from positive to balanced. Possession and xG could possibly have been higher if not switching as the team were dominating those matches.

  

League top seven teams

Top four teams posession average with pass completion and number of passes

Final third passes - top three teams

Not so flattering - xG bottom three teams: compared to top two teams with xG high above the 9 mark

Three teams with lowest xGA

Impression so far: The tactic could be solid with a little more attacking spice. I will wait and see how it evolves as team cohesion evolves before making any changes. If anyone has any suggestions for changes without comprimising possession and defensive solidity, they are most welcome.

Tactical familiarity is acchieved.

 

September 2023:  

Three league games where Lille where the most challenging opponent as they were leading 2-0 before attacking mentality was taken. The two other teams are mid-table teams.

  

In the Europa League against Villareal the young 11 picked for the match where out of their depths and had little to offer. 

Possession stats has not regressed yet and remain strong.

xG still low - PSG 1st 16.27 and Marseille 2nd at 14.40. Rennes are the biggest overachiever for xG compared to scored goals at 5.58 more goals than the xG indicates.

Benchmarking passing: For other tactics I have used passing numbers are normally around/a little below 700 passes per game, where 47-51 % is in the opponents half.

 

October 2023: 

Managed a strong win against PSG at home, before loosing against Lorient at 7th, finally winning against Strasbourg. xG still to low and results can easily change if conceding goals.

League

   

Europa League

 

Possession and xG for League

Possession and xG for Europa League

 XG = 2.46 for three matches

 

November 2023: Tweaked the tactic to improve attacking play

Tactical change reduced the 3-2 rest defence to either a 2-2 or 3-1. As discussed in the 2nd post in this thread due to utilize width and more players contributing further up the pitch. The left IFB is now changed to a CWB. For the 2-2 rest defence with two defending duties and the rest on support, there is possible to allocate one attacking duty on balanced/positive mentality and two attacking duties for attacking mentality.

In the league a tough away fixture against Nice settled for a win with the tactical tweaks and 2-2 rest defence due to them playing 433 with one striker. xG improved and possession and defence is still good for away fixture against strong opposition. Home against Lyon they played a 433 focusing on wing play with a high DL and press. A little unsure of how to start the match, but settled for the 2-2 rest defence. Their most notable performances were:

   

After Lyon equalized to 1-1 the CWB went attacking, the Libero not hold position and attacking mentality for the team. Not able to score and a draw. The last league match was at home against Reims gegenpressing in a 433 with wingers. They are a strong attacking and 3-1 version was selected for the start of the match. Reims notable performances below:

  

Reims dominated the first half and took a 2-0 lead, lots of corners and using the flanks. Changed to 2-2 rest defence, removed hold position for the Libero, assigned attacking duty to the left IW. Rennes scored just before half-time to make it 2-1 to Reims. Even creating a decent amount in the 2nd half this ended in a 1-2 loss.

In Europa League the home fixture against Zorya playing 4231 the 2-2 version of the tactic were used. The CWB was given attacking duty for parts of the match to create five in the front line. This showed a lot of promise and was a direct cause for one of the goals and one of the disallowed ones. After we took the lead during the 2nd half they started to threaten our flanks in the 2-2 set-up. When changed to 3-1 this threat was reduced. Possession and defence has not suffered from the tweaks to the tactic. Last match of the month was away against Villareal. They are a strong team playing in a 442 formation. Started the match with the 3-1 set-up and balanced mentality. The CWB assisted our equalizer to 1-1 in the first half. Taking to much pressure and changing mentality to positive. Lost 2-3.

Increase in team cohesion could also aid the improvements in offensive performance, as well as Terrier returning from start of the game injury.

League

  

Europa League

 

 

The left flank with the CWB is where a lot of the build-ups and attacking play takes place. 

vs Nice (Rennes goal right)

vs Lyon (Rennes goal Left)

Possession decreasing

 

xG improving

 

December 2023: Further tweaks to improve attacking play and settling for tactical approach

Aahh, December the month of snow, raindeers and red coated bearded fellows. When we pass the middle of the month I enjoy good and perhaps to much food, socializing, English football and if I am a little daring a nice Christmas sweater, and also a good portion of FM. Regarding FM around Christmas times individual training focus is reviewed for players in all squads. Changes can be made to individual training focus to develope other attributes, or continuing with the current individual training focus if these attributes needs further development.

For Rennes the month of December has seen small tactical changes and tweaks. The first two matches where played with flexible fluidity and attacking duties for IW's in the 3-2 version. This is mainly to benchmark this fluidity against the preferred very fluid or atleast fluid. First match away against Marseille, a strong team. No clear conclusions can be made from this fixture as seen below. A win, decent possession but lacklustre xG's, our red card is making things very unclear and impossible to draw any conclusions. Lucky to get all three points. The last match played with flexible fluidity were against Monaco at home. Not totally satiesfied with what was seen and the match ended in a draw. In fairness to flexible fluidity these two teams are amongst the strongest in Ligue 1. Points gained are not the issue, it is the quality of pressing and team play that makes me slightly reluctant.

Testing the new tweaks to the tactic (post 3) had lesser opponents. Starting away against Toulouse at 17th in the table with the 3-2 version. As should be against a weaker opponent things looked decently good, and Bouriegeaud as Mezzala assisted Kalimuendo. This was a goal acchieved by the tactic. Due to tight fixture schedule in the fixture away against Clermont the 2nd picks were elected, also with the 3-2 version. The reasoning for this that the first 11 was tired, decided not to rest them to give playing time to young developing players. This is long term thinking that in the long run will benefit the players and the club.

No sparkling untill the late minutes when players from the first 11 substituted players tired players. Late goal from Bouriegeaud (Mezzala) from Le Fee (IWR) was due to play according to tactics and secured three points.

All in all the tactical tweaks looks promising and I believe this is the way forward for the club DNA. Faithful to the principles of possession, defensively solid and with time the play in possession could be encouraging and create chances. During the matches lack of cohesion and tactical familiarity for some new roles where witnessed, especially in passing play. This will improve with time. Regarding crosses set to mixed this can be the best option when the team is cohesive and decisions making is sufficient. As for now it was set to low during the 2nd half of the last fixture. In fairness to the tactic and the level of players, the image below shows the attributes for Jacquet playing as Libero for the 2nd picks (Europa League), the reasoning for doing this is long term and his development. Currently he is trained at quickness and his passing and movement is priority after quickness stats of 13-14 are acchieved.

League

 

  

Europa League

Qualified for the knock out round by placing 2nd behind Villareal. The match against Servette was the opposite of the Marseille fixture. This time we felt robbed for losing the points.

 

January 2024:

Sweeper Keeper Alban Lafont bought from Nantes. This is an important signing for the long term ambition of the club. He is the best SK the available for the clubs budget and willing to sign for Rennes. He will strongly strengthen the 1st team and the tactic.

League

First real test of the current tactic with the new tweaks at home against Nice trying to control possession. Considering the 2-2 version as they play 433, but they are too strong to experiment against and settled for the 3-2 version from the start of the match. Nice notable performances:

Thuram their right MC with the role as Mezzala was a danger, I was considering to use OI's to eliminate him as he scored two against us, which OI's have you been succesful with for limiting Mezzala's ?

Mistake by CD Theate and they equalized. He was probably targeted by the opposition AI for pressing. His passing is 12, vision 11, decisions 12, composure 12. He is strong in defence currently training his quickness (acc.15 / pace 13), as soon as this around 14/15 individual training focus will be passing.

After their equalizer in the 60th minute switched to the 2-2 version. When we scored and went ahead switched to balanced mentality and won 4-3. They did not create any chances after we took the lead and this is promising for the 2-2 version. The offensive capability has drastically improved, whilst there is childhood diseases for passing and defensively leading to goals conceded.

Next match away against Lyon at 7th, which is also a decent attacking team with xG of 1.83, trying to control possession in a 433 formation. The match ended 0-0 with Rennes closest to bag a goal. There was some incidents with poor passing between the SK and Theate. He seems to be the target of oppositon pressing.

 

Coupe de France

First match against a semi-professional club founded in 2018. Nothing to say about the fixture, Rennes dominated  the match as they should do. 2nd match against another semi-professional club named Flerien. The 2nd picks chosen for the match to maintain match fitness for February with league, Europa League and hopefully more Coupe de France matches. Switched to attacking mentality just before half-time as the score was 0-0 and lacklustre attacking play. The match went to penalties which Rennes won.

 

 

Team cohesion slowly progressing, still some time and improvement before the team will really benefit from it.

League table with European qualification places

Possession regressed to 65 %

xG still low but slowly improving, top three in league: PSG 48.45, Marseille 35,31 and Reims 34,41

 

February 2024:

Still competing in three competitions. The league and Champions Leage qualification ($) has priority, the first 11 will be played in league matches and the 2nd picks will get playing time in the cups.

League

Match home against Montpellier, changed to attacking mentality after 30 minutes, changed to positive again when scoring around the 60th minute. They equalized in the 74th minute, attacking mentality again. Changed to 2-2 version around the 85th minute and scored twice before full time. The next match was away against Le Havre at the 18th place in the bottom of the league. We would face a 4231 focusing on wing play. Started with the 3-2 on attacking mentality. Scored at the 28th minute changed to positive mentality. The shape of the 3-2 is good and the DLF often moved lateral and created overloads in wider areas. When they reduced to 1-3 in the 50th minute changed to balanced mentality and saw out the match.

The next opponent was Clermont at Home, expecting them to play fluid counter attacking football in a 3421 (AM). Decided to start with the 2-2 and positive mentality. Changed to attacking mentality half-way through the 1st half. A long shot deflected on of our players and they were ahead. Rennes equalized and they with their first shot at goal went ahead 2-1. Changed to 3-2 and chasing with attacking mentality and soon the score was 2-2 and that became the final result. Huge disappointment and in retrospective should not have started with the 2-2 version / changed to attacking mentality against a team with three central offensive players. Result purely because of managerial mistake. Last match of the month are PSG away playing tiki taka in a 433 formation and a 3-2 rest defence. They are playing with a high DL and press which they perform excellent. Good at passing the ball and accurate crossing. This will be the toughest fixture domestically this season. Starting with the 3-2 and balanced mentality. They took an early lead and mentality was changed to positive, both teams scored one goal each after the first goal and at half-time the score was 2-1 to PSG. After PSG scored to make it 3-1 changed to the 2-2 rest defence. PSG were clearly the best team and won 4-1.

   

Europa League

In the knock out play off round the first leg is away vs Ferencvarosi, expected to play 4231 control possession. Starting with 3-2 and balanced mentality. Passing mistake by back up GK Gallon handed them a free goal and mentality was changed to positive. Allmost immediately we equalized in a beautiful passing attack utilizing almost every diamond created before scoring. Balanced mentality again in the 50th(ish) minute. Changed to 2-2 and positive in the 75th minute and the match ended 1-1. For the home tie we started with the 3-2 and positive mentality. First choice GK selected to play with the 2nd picks and that helped secure a 1-0 victory.

 

The draw for the round of 16

Coupe de France

Playing against away against Aubersvilliers at the 4th divisional level. Started with attacking mentality with the 3-2 version against their 3412. They scored first in the 28th minute. Changed to the 2-2 version and equalized in the 52nd minute. Even though One of their attackers dropped deeper the 2-2 version gave 5 vs 4 overload in the midfield. The match ended in a 1-1 draw and they won the penalty shoot out. The cup campaign against teams at very low levels were far from impressive and being knocked out in the 11th round is absymal.

 

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by cmonreds

[diLLa88]

Everything you have instructed is to maximise possession.

 

If you are looking for a finer balance between possession and offensive impact, then there are of course ways to do that, but it will always negatively impact your possession rates.

[cmonreds]

9 hours ago, diLLa88 said:

Everything you have instructed is to maximise possession.

 

If you are looking for a finer balance between possession and offensive impact, then there are of course ways to do that, but it will always negatively impact your possession rates.

Yes and for the tactic to be solid and creating more chances, some of those ways has to been used, it is a question of finding a solution which acchieves possession as well as defensive and offensive capacity.

[HurkaDurk69]

Can you show some in-game screenshots of how your players are positioned when playing from the back, when one of the IW has the ball, when the DLF has the ball etc

[cmonreds]

52 minutes ago, HurkaDurk69 said:

Can you show some in-game screenshots of how your players are positioned when playing from the back, when one of the IW has the ball, when the DLF has the ball etc

Playing out from the back

IW receives the ball (He tried to cut inside but are forced outside)

DLF receives the ball (Holds and wait for support)

[diLLa88]

14 hours ago, cmonreds said:

Yes and for the tactic to be solid and creating more chances, some of those ways has to been used, it is a question of finding a solution which acchieves possession as well as defensive and offensive capacity.

One thing I would try personally is to have the DLF on attack so he at least moves into threatening positions a bit more often. In addition I would put one of the two CM's on attack duty so he makes more runs into the box.

These are minor changes and should not overly change the theme of the tactic, but it should allow a bit more threat in the box for the IW's to provide to.

[cmonreds]

15 minutes ago, diLLa88 said:

One thing I would try personally is to have the DLF on attack so he at least moves into threatening positions a bit more often. In addition I would put one of the two CM's on attack duty so he makes more runs into the box.

These are minor changes and should not overly change the theme of the tactic, but it should allow a bit more threat in the box for the IW's to provide to.

Thanks for the advice, there is a strong possibility that adding attacking duties to the tactic is required. I have had a look at passing patterns with different rest defences (2-1, 2-3, different 3-2's, will post them in the 3rd post of this thread.

Edited December 20, 2023 by cmonreds

[Dr Naysay]

I think this is a really important thread to show people how to evolve a tactic without always ripping up and starting again, there's definitely a sweet spot between possession and being effective attacking wise and I like the fact you are showing people how to get to that result.

[vrig]

In fairness, you might not even really need attacking duties all that much. Roles like the MEZ and CWB that you've added are already pretty good at attacking space even on support, and players like Gouiri will naturally get on the end of chances with their traits.

I do love a good extreme possession tactic, although I myself tend to stick an advanced forward or a target up top to give a direct alternative. There's no reason that you would have to do that though.

[john1]

Loving the deep depth of your write up on this Looking forward to reading more!

[cmonreds]

1 hour ago, Dr Naysay said:

I think this is a really important thread to show people how to evolve a tactic without always ripping up and starting again, there's definitely a sweet spot between possession and being effective attacking wise and I like the fact you are showing people how to get to that result.

That sweet spot are the aim of this thread, myself I hope to learn by other forum members contributions and ideas, their/yours perspectives might in the end be what make the tactic succesfull.

[cmonreds]

21 minutes ago, vrig said:

In fairness, you might not even really need attacking duties all that much. Roles like the MEZ and CWB that you've added are already pretty good at attacking space even on support, and players like Gouiri will naturally get on the end of chances with their traits.

I do love a good extreme possession tactic, although I myself tend to stick an advanced forward or a target up top to give a direct alternative. There's no reason that you would have to do that though.

Good points regarding duties, will soon write a little about that in post 3 (positioning and possible passing patterns), evolving the tactic is at a crossroad, MC's could be either CM's on attacking duty or Mezzala's on support duty. Thanks for sharing your views 

[cmonreds]

11 minutes ago, john1 said:

Loving the deep depth of your write up on this Looking forward to reading more!

Thanks a lot, more writings to come 

[jc577]

On 19/12/2023 at 04:42, cmonreds said:

Reduce the rest defence to four players ? This is a possible solution that still will bring more defensive strength compared to the original tactic with just 3 players in the rest defence. This can be done in several ways (also based on the oppositon formation/pressing), either a 2-2 box or a 3-1 set-up. Which chosen has alos impact on on how width can be created and they can each be perfomed in multliple ways by adding one player going forward either centrally or a fullback. Examples below:

Amazing thread mate, love the tactical detail and musings as you look to perfect the system. I'm definitely a huge fan of the 2-2 box, and as you've shown there's loads of variations to it. I think the 5-5 split (3-2 rest defence) can work well of course, especially with top teams as it's more reliant on individual qualitative superiority (attacking players winning their 1v1's) but a 2-2 box gives you essentially a 'free' player to support wherever required. 

I've been thinking lately about a 2-3 rest defence of sorts, but with a player within that '3' able to support attacks when needed, again forming that 2-2. One variation in a 433 is having both CM's consistently join the front line, and then the DM is supported by a Libero & IWB (IWB has license to attack). 

Another option could be to have one CM stay back, have the Libero step up again to make the three, and now you can perhaps have an aggressive wingback as the extra attacker, with the IW-S coming in very narrow. Lots of options!

Looking forward to more, great work so far 

[diLLa88]

39 minutes ago, jc577 said:

Amazing thread mate, love the tactical detail and musings as you look to perfect the system. I'm definitely a huge fan of the 2-2 box, and as you've shown there's loads of variations to it. I think the 5-5 split (3-2 rest defence) can work well of course, especially with top teams as it's more reliant on individual qualitative superiority (attacking players winning their 1v1's) but a 2-2 box gives you essentially a 'free' player to support wherever required. 

I've been thinking lately about a 2-3 rest defence of sorts, but with a player within that '3' able to support attacks when needed, again forming that 2-2. One variation in a 433 is having both CM's consistently join the front line, and then the DM is supported by a Libero & IWB (IWB has license to attack). 

Another option could be to have one CM stay back, have the Libero step up again to make the three, and now you can perhaps have an aggressive wingback as the extra attacker, with the IW-S coming in very narrow. Lots of options!

Looking forward to more, great work so far 

I'm currently working with this, which has some parallels with the OP's tactic, although my approach is a bit more direct instead of purely possession based.

In possession, Timber and Hilgers form the back 2, with Hato and Mannsverk directly in front of them, which creates a 2-2 box there. Jetten is the one who will move up during build up and will move from a 2-3 setup to 2-2 with him supporting Borges on the wing.

Darvich on the wing as an AP drops deeper than Borges, which works well due to the lack of support by Timber far up the pitch. Timber and Darvich do however connect a lot during the early stage of the build up. In the opposition area Sforza will be the one supporting him.

[jc577]

44 minutes ago, diLLa88 said:

I'm currently working with this, which has some parallels with the OP's tactic, although my approach is a bit more direct instead of purely possession based.

Like the look of this a lot, I can imagine it creates good movement all over the pitch. How does the AP interact with the CM-A? Also, how do you find the shift in the backline as you have the IFB on the opposite side to the Libero?

[cmonreds]

1 hour ago, jc577 said:

Amazing thread mate, love the tactical detail and musings as you look to perfect the system. I'm definitely a huge fan of the 2-2 box, and as you've shown there's loads of variations to it. I think the 5-5 split (3-2 rest defence) can work well of course, especially with top teams as it's more reliant on individual qualitative superiority (attacking players winning their 1v1's) but a 2-2 box gives you essentially a 'free' player to support wherever required. 

I've been thinking lately about a 2-3 rest defence of sorts, but with a player within that '3' able to support attacks when needed, again forming that 2-2. One variation in a 433 is having both CM's consistently join the front line, and then the DM is supported by a Libero & IWB (IWB has license to attack). 

Another option could be to have one CM stay back, have the Libero step up again to make the three, and now you can perhaps have an aggressive wingback as the extra attacker, with the IW-S coming in very narrow. Lots of options!

Looking forward to more, great work so far 

Thanks mate 

Agree with you on the 3-2 / 5-5 split, attacking players winning 1v1's can be termed situational superiority (I think) by their skill set being superior compared to the opposition player, typicall example being the wide attackers/midfielder. Good suggestions you make, in the origin(al) tactic in this thread the narrow IW's, complete wingback's and CM's (only roaming not getting forward) formed good passing patterns in the wide/wide central areas, often the DLF came close and participated in the passing. Regarding the wingback; if decent pace preferrably attacking duty and PI's cross from byline and cut inside can create a lot of decent chances. This can further be built upon with cross often and for example cross to centre if this area has the most players/players that are good finishers.

[cmonreds]

1 hour ago, diLLa88 said:

I'm currently working with this, which has some parallels with the OP's tactic, although my approach is a bit more direct instead of purely possession based.

In possession, Timber and Hilgers form the back 2, with Hato and Mannsverk directly in front of them, which creates a 2-2 box there. Jetten is the one who will move up during build up and will move from a 2-3 setup to 2-2 with him supporting Borges on the wing.

Darvich on the wing as an AP drops deeper than Borges, which works well due to the lack of support by Timber far up the pitch. Timber and Darvich do however connect a lot during the early stage of the build up. In the opposition area Sforza will be the one supporting him.

Nice, appreciate you sharing your tactical ideas  

Edited December 20, 2023 by cmonreds

[diLLa88]

2 hours ago, jc577 said:

Like the look of this a lot, I can imagine it creates good movement all over the pitch. How does the AP interact with the CM-A? Also, how do you find the shift in the backline as you have the IFB on the opposite side to the Libero?

This is generally how build up looks like, with the blue circles being the defenders, orange midfield, green wingers and red striker.

Hilgers moves from DCR to DCL in build up, and Timber moves from DR to DCR. Hato moves up to DMCL while Mannsverk moves from DMC to DMCR.

There is a lot of movement, which opens up spaces all over the pitch.

The CM-A arrives in the box, so the AP sometimes lays-off or makes forward dribbles (I did give the AP some winger instructions to make him less static).

Another variant is where I put the AP on support role and change the CM-A to mezzala. This also makes some fun interactions where they switch around their positions quite often with the mezzala ending on the wing and the AP more central.

[cmonreds]

59 minutes ago, diLLa88 said:

This is generally how build up looks like, with the blue circles being the defenders, orange midfield, green wingers and red striker.

Hilgers moves from DCR to DCL in build up, and Timber moves from DR to DCR. Hato moves up to DMCL while Mannsverk moves from DMC to DMCR.

There is a lot of movement, which opens up spaces all over the pitch.

The CM-A arrives in the box, so the AP sometimes lays-off or makes forward dribbles (I did give the AP some winger instructions to make him less static).

Another variant is where I put the AP on support role and change the CM-A to mezzala. This also makes some fun interactions where they switch around their positions quite often with the mezzala ending on the wing and the AP more central.

Looks good, how often do you reap the rewards of your left flank by creating chances / assists ?

[Luxifer]

Please let me know when will you share the lastest version?TeamWorkRate_Attacking.fmfTeamWorkRate_Balanced.fmfTeamWorkRate_Positive.fmf

Edited December 21, 2023 by Luxifer

[diLLa88]

11 hours ago, cmonreds said:

Looks good, how often do you reap the rewards of your left flank by creating chances / assists ?

Quite a lot. Both my LB and AML are fast with decent crossing attributes and are left footers with a decent right foot. The AML is 50/50 on goals and assists and most assists are low crosses to the ST or one of the CM's and also the occassional cross to the AMR. The goals are mostly through solo dribbles and cutting inside.

The LB does more crosses through the air to the ST or AMR. I would like to have a striker who is a bit stronger in the air as I notice that I lose a lot of opportunities there. 

[cmonreds]

10 hours ago, diLLa88 said:

Quite a lot. Both my LB and AML are fast with decent crossing attributes and are left footers with a decent right foot. The AML is 50/50 on goals and assists and most assists are low crosses to the ST or one of the CM's and also the occassional cross to the AMR. The goals are mostly through solo dribbles and cutting inside.

The LB does more crosses through the air to the ST or AMR. I would like to have a striker who is a bit stronger in the air as I notice that I lose a lot of opportunities there. 

Any PI's for the LB or AML? In the 2-2 version with CBW he often formed a 4 in the attack, the doubling up on players on his flank often gave him space to move into. I briefly tested Cross from byline / Cut inside for the CWB and that was very promising. It is possible to add PI's as cross more, cross centre to further tailor the CWB's delivery from wide dependant on the opposition weaknesses/strengths and own teams weaknesses/strengths. A few such small tweaks can be effective and a way for improving chance creation.

Edited December 21, 2023 by cmonreds

[cmonreds]

I have used the allowed amount of size to upload in the post updating mathces, therefore continuing here.

MARCH 2024

Played against Lorient at home. Mid-table team that we should beat. They line up in 3421 (AML/AMR) and the 2-2 version were selected to get one extra man in midfield. Pretty dull match with two goals that ended 1-1. After the match the tactic and progress was reviewed with data analytics which can be seen below.

 

Review/data analytics after Lorient match

Less shooting and xG than average, we haven't had any penalties given in the league as I can remember. xG has increased from 0.77 in September and currently averaging at 1. The xG for the 16 matches  played since then is averaging at 1.22. Still quite low compared to comparable teams acchieving xG around 2.0. Decent defence and conceding slightly more goals than expected. The low xG is worrying as we are probably overacchieving with the amont of points we have got. If/when this starts to regress we will most likely start to loose and draw more matches.

 

Fewest crosses in the league but accurate crossing. Crossing set to mixed both as PI and TI with how to deliver them. Due to quite decent crossing and decision ability as well as ability to receive them for the 1st picks playing the league games, the completion stats are good. In the cups playing the 2nd picks crosses are often set to low as TI. This is due to worse ability to both deliver and receive crosses from those players. Often there has been high crosses with low players are unable to receive. We cross the least of all teams. Can increased crossing or facilitate for crossing be a way to improve the xG ?

The amount and completion of passes are as they should be in an extreme possession tactic. Still only 13% of those are in the final third and 36% in the opposition half. In september the numbers were 13% and 35% so the number are almost the same. Except the DLF hardcoded to take more passing risks all other players are set to passing risk medium/mixed. Can increased passing risk for more players help to progress play into opponents own 3rd and increase the xG ? In amount of passes the numbers are quite good for final 3rd passes compared to other teams, it is the percentage of final 3rd passes of the passing total that we want to increase.

 

 

Shooting is a result of passing and crossing enabling finishes. Our shot map for the last five matches indicates to many long shots. When this happens when all players are set to do this less there is something not working as it should in the tactic. We do it even though we should not do it, this is the last option players should choose.

The tactic presses high, has a high DL and tackling is done by stay on feet. The tactic do not prevent short GK distribution from the opposition GK by pressing their defenders. Instead the press commences as a high block more where the team should be more unified. The 3-2 version which has more men staying back in central areas has the purpose of being solid in defence. Should stay on feet when tackling as a TI be removed as the team are quite strong in tackling? How to better the OPPDA ? Defensively the tactic is decent, but there is room for improvement.

 

 

Changing the 3-2 to a 2-2 rest defence

The best finishers in the squad are the DLF's and IW's. In the 3-2 set-up 2/3 are positioned wide. The best crossers are the fullbacks.  Changing to a 2-2 with one CWB allows for one IW to move more central (sit narrower)l as well as facilitating for one fullback to move forward for wide delivery. The shape of the back three in the 3-2 rest defence is good for passing, this is replicated by switching positions for the Libero and CD and changing duty for the Libero to defend. The IFB's are changed to left CWB (attack) and rigth IWB (support). Left Mezzala changed to CM (support/roaming) to tie things up. Width is still maintained and comparison between the current 3-2 and the new 2-2 below:

Passing map 

Tested the same match several times. The pattern is more finishing inside the  box, increased crossing where the CWB (left) consistently gets forward and contributes in creating chances. Amount of crosses varies and can be inflated by short corners, especially from the right side. No.3 (CBW) stays back for corners (Delegated) his crosses are from open play.  Changing the AMR to winger can further increase crossing if that is wanted. For Rennes the finishing of the wide attacking players are better than for the central midfielders, so opting for the IW role at AMR. Images below (the best test) are 1) CCC's and half chances 2) Crosses 3) crosses completed/chances created/key passes

    

Transitions - comparing average positions for in and out of possession to see the distance between the averages. This is one of the reasons  why the LCB are libero defend, to move slightly up the pitch to close gaps/cover space. The AMR due to staying wider needs a little more time to get back into a defensive shape. The DC drops deeper by himself in possession, for this player ability to position and making  correct decisons are important. These transitions movements and the increased risk by more crossing and increasing passing risks, leads to crossing and passing risks staying at mixed/medium.

Will play next matches with this tactic.

League

The attacking play is really picking up.. Average possession with the tactic for the last three matches: 58,7 %. Average xG: 1,34. Average xGA: 1,74. xGA is mainly corners and crosses against, also a few double chances against gave high numbers. Haven't been caught on the break or been outnumbered in the slightly risky 2-2 set-up. Strasbourg (RCSA) played 442 and the 2-2 managed that well.

    

Europa League

At home against Villareal. Started with positive mentality, when they equalized went attacking untill the 85th minute when switching to balanced. The 2nd leg was a big surprise, had to play two 1st picks in midfield because of injury, beautfiul football played.

 

 

April 2024:

League

Results not awful, still possession are decreasing to much. Decent defenc, attacking wise not consistent enough. Avg. possession: 59,5 . Avg xG: 1,09 . Avg xGA: 0,60.

   

Europa League

Quarter Final

 

 

May 2024:

 

League

The last two 2-2 draws conceded late goals on balanced mentality. The tactic fares better with positive or attacking mentality. Avg. possesion: 60,3. Avg xG: 1,39. Avg xGA: 1,0.

  

 

 

 

Edited December 23, 2023 by cmonreds

[cmonreds]

19 hours ago, Luxifer said:

Please let me know when will you share the lastest version?TeamWorkRate_Attacking.fmfTeamWorkRate_Balanced.fmfTeamWorkRate_Positive.fmf

• This is a process which is not finished, the gut feeling for what is the best for now are these three tactics, based on the results and data analytics so far. Advantages is using the same roles, good for tactical familiarity, not tested yet though. I haven't written about set-pieces but they are focused on maintaining possession as well, and based upon Barcelona during Guardiola.
• For the AMR a winger cut inside, crossing from byline for all versions of the tactic can be equally good as the IW role. More passing risk is added for the central midfielder with an attacking duty on this side/flank (both for the attacking version). If using two IW's I would enable swap positions between these. If opting for replacing the right IW with a winger your team will get crosses from both sides.
• If opting for using wingers you will acchieve what the 2-1 rest defence acchieves in a 2-2 rest defence, which should increases strength in centre areas, one more player preventing counter attacks against. If you test the tactic both as for now or with a winger, please give feedback of thow it goes.
• Possibly for very fluid tactics three defensive duties in a 3-2 might be too defensive. A 2-2 rest defence allocating one attacking duty for balanced/positive versions and 2 attacking duties for attacking versions might be a better option.

Set Pieces_tiki taka_(Pep_Barca).fmf

TeamWorkRate_Attacking.fmf

TeamWorkRate_Positive.fmf

TeamWorkRate_Balanced.fmf

 

 

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by cmonreds

[cmonreds]

A lot of matches and testing whilst posting. One clear impression is that with very fluid tactics the higher mentalities works better, atleast for the tactics trying to acchieve in this thread. In too many matches goals were conceded and possession could also drop when changing to lower mentality. A lot of lessons learned by posting in this thread can be applied to the origin tactic. It har worked for me before starting this thread, but when applying attacking duties to the CWB's and pushing mentality to attacking I belive this is a very good tactic. Dependant on the oppostion and how they defend, attacks will find and utilize space in different ways. Through the centre or both flanks, key passes as either through balls from different depths, ball worked into box in passing combinations, passes or crosses from the flanks.

It has been tested only from the 17th March 2024 in the save game after test of other tactic, possession is still high with major increase in XG and goals scored. OPPDA as low as 3.65. Team cohesion only at good and tactical familiarity not a full, still the tactic yields results. The first draw, a goal was conceded when switching mentality to positive.

Typical passing map looks like:

  

Finishing

   

Key passes / chances created

   

This is the tactic named after the thread.

Tactic: el Rondo.fm

These training schedules is slightly biased towards possession but should develope attributes broadly.

1st team schedules:Pre Season.fmfNo Match.fmf1_Friday.fmf1_Saturday.fmf1_Sunday.fmf2_Tuesday Saturday.fmf2_Tuesday Sunday.fmf2_Wednesday Saturday.fmf2_Wednesday Sunday.fmf2_Thursday Sunday.fmf

Reserves/youth team schedules:yth_No Match.fmfyth_1_Friday.fmfyth_1_Saturday.fmfyth_1_Sunday.fmfyth_2_Tuesday Saturday.fmfyth_2_Tuesday Sunday.fmfyth_2_Wednesday Saturday.fmfyth_2_Wednesday Sunday.fmfyth_2_Thursday Sunday.fmf

Edited December 23, 2023 by cmonreds

[diLLa88]

On 21/12/2023 at 21:33, cmonreds said:

Any PI's for the LB or AML? In the 2-2 version with CBW he often formed a 4 in the attack, the doubling up on players on his flank often gave him space to move into. I briefly tested Cross from byline / Cut inside for the CWB and that was very promising. It is possible to add PI's as cross more, cross centre to further tailor the CWB's delivery from wide dependant on the opposition weaknesses/strengths and own teams weaknesses/strengths. A few such small tweaks can be effective and a way for improving chance creation.

Cross more often for the LB

Sit Narrower for the AML

Have also added cross to near post to both as I want low crosses at near post in general due to lack of aerial strength in squad.

[cmonreds]

This tactic might be it. 3-2 rest defence shape. Tweaks made from the former 3-2 tactic for TI's are low crosses and stay on feet removed. PI's IW's has neither sit narrower or stay wider, this creates sufficient width, CM's moves into channels, and Libero and DM has not hold position. Removing hold position for those ensures that there is no gaps in positioning between the different stratas and they are close proximity passing outlets and presses early if the ball is lost.

Average position in possession. Short distance between players and the team keeps the compact shape. In regard to using CWB's and IW's stay wider this shape will not be acchieved. 

Distance between average positions in and out of possession, no players has to run for longer distances = quick transitions and the teams shape are kept in all phases of play.

Passing map

The tactic has two versions, positive mentality for control and attacking mentality to dominate.

el Rondo_Control.fmf

el Rondo_Dominate.fmf

Will update results forthcoming..

August/september 2023

Edited December 26, 2023 by cmonreds

[lilljons]

This thread has been incredible to read. To read your thought process  and your methods has given me very much new and good information.

Thank you!

[cmonreds]

1 hour ago, lilljons said:

This thread has been incredible to read. To read your thought process  and your methods has given me very much new and good information.

Thank you!

That is good to hear,

The advantage of using data analytics is that it is hard data/facts, a lot of information summarized and available at a glance. A lot of game time and watching matches required to get the same amount of information. 

[cmonreds]

Tactical theory about rest defence: https://spielverlagerung.com/2021/07/05/tactical-theory-the-various-forms-of-rest-defence/

For different opponents and their formations and playing styles various set-ups for rest defence should be utilized. The link gives a good explanation of this. This post will concentrate on rest defences with 5, 4 and 3 players. The more players used in the rest defence the fewer players will be going forward to contribute in attacks/offensive play. The balance is dependant of the risk you willing to take and the opposition formation/players staying forward. A five man rest defence can be counter productive if the opposition is sitting back with just one player staying forward. Note: In FM24 players in the rest defence can frequent/infrequently venture forward and contribute in these situations, but it is better to structure the rest defence so players are positioned higher up the pitch, if there is no need for them to stay back.

Rest defences can be divided and termed the 1st line and the 2nd line. The image shows this from a 3-2. Their primary tasks and benefits are:

1st line: cover defensive space - passing outlets.

2nd line: Better positioned to apply counter pressure/press early - passing outlets further up the pitch closer to the opposition goal, can also create chances.

For FM players in the rest defence as far as I have tested is constituted by players from the defence and defensive midfield strata which doesn not venture forward/has attacking duties. The number in the rest defence should equal or be +1 to number of opposition players staying forward/posing attacking threats in counter attacks. Rest defences can include wide players but mostly concentrates on the central areas of the pitch.

How the rest defence is set up should reflect the opposition. There can be 2 to 6 players in the rest defence, but 3 to 5 is the not extreme versions. Does anyone have any experiences on the below set-ups? and from which opposition formations/tactical styles/match scenarios are the experiences?

Five man rest defence

3-2

2-3

1-4

Four man rest defence

3-1

2-2

1-3

Three man rest defence

1-2

2-1

Rest defence influences the positioning of the other players (attacking). Notice the width of IW's in the 2-3 rest defence compared to the 3-2. All TI's and PI's are the same except for players in the rest defence chaning roles.

 

Edited December 28, 2023 by cmonreds

[nick1408]

Might be a weird question but how do you know through the analysis whether it's a tactical issue or player(s) underperforming?

 

 

First off, this isn't your tactic but the question does relate to your analysis. The above is from one match (a few minutes apart. The goal was from a corner so not really relevant other than the xG finishing higher from less shots. In essence, the xG is really good and I can even cope with less shots than the opposition (especially in this case against Bayern Munich). 

 

Wolf playeed at MAR, Hack at AML and Weigl as the CMR. Elvedi started at CB before moving to RB when Scally was subbed off. Netz was the LB. from here I can ascertain that the midfield and striker (in particular) under-performed.

 

Here is shows that Neuhaue is under-performing as an attacking playmaker.

 

And here my feeling that Plea underperformed was true as well.

 

So, my question is when using the data centre how do I make an informed decision that the tactic is at fault or the player?

[cmonreds]

5 minutes ago, nick1408 said:

Q: Might be a weird question but how do you know through the analysis whether it's a tactical issue or player(s) underperforming?

A: That is not a weird question but a very valid and good question, also bear in mind that randomness will affect match outcomes either positively or negatively.

First of all, I try to eliminate players underperforming due to individual causes as poor mental or physical states and potentially giving false results. The ones selected are mentally and physically fit for the matches, which atleast eliminates personal factors that can lead to underperforming, and increases the likelyhood that the results are caused by tactical instructions.

In the short term when using data analytics, as randomness and performances fluctuates, a match is either played 3-5 times (watching just replays of goals and goalscoring chances, these replays are rewinded for as long as needed to see the whole build-up/situation that led to the highlight.In example penalities are rewinded to see everything that led to the penalty), or a prolonged serie of matches (5-10) is played. If there are any outliers (extreme exceptions) that can be positive or negative this will most likely be discovered/eliminated by doing it this way. Mostly I look at stats other than the results and look for patterns. Preferrably a whole season should be played as statistics can regress towards an average over the longer term. Achieving good long term averages for what you want to acchieve is what will give consistent performances.

If there is consistently poor performances there is either something wrong with that position/role/PI's in the overall tactic or the selected player can not fullfill the role. The latter can be discovered by comparing the needed attributes for the role and the ability of the player compared to the competition average. In example when playing a player as a Libero on support and he is lacking passing, decision making, offensive and defensive positioning underperforming is caused by the players ability to perform in the role. But if the player is mentally and physically fit, has the ability/attributes and has tactical familiarity it is due to the tactic.

Tactical familiarity is acchieved quickly, but team cohesion needs atleast a whole season and up to 1,5 season to reach the highest level. At his level the maximum potential of the tactic is reached. This also has an effect on perfomance of the tactic.

Q: First off, this isn't your tactic but the question does relate to your analysis. The above is from one match (a few minutes apart. The goal was from a corner so not really relevant other than the xG finishing higher from less shots. In essence, the xG is really good and I can even cope with less shots than the opposition (especially in this case against Bayern Munich). 

A:. The stats are decently good, Bayern has better players and that increases the likelihood for them score on their chances, as well as prevent you from scoring on your chances.

Q: So, my question is when using the data centre how do I make an informed decision that the tactic is at fault or the player?

A: It is easier for me to respond with an example I am currently working on. It is regarding using a DLF or CF in the tactic. I wil do this in the next post:

 

 

[cmonreds]

My assumption is that the CF will drop deeper a little less and to a larger extent also leading the line and earlier threatening the space behind the defenders. The tactic does not use TI counter for transitions and using a CF can make up for this a little bit.

Results with CF:

Results with DLF:

Results are better with the CF, I want to check why this is the cause. Here I use the data analytics from the match and not from the Data Hub.

vs Montpellier playing 4231 (CF (left images) - DLF (right images))

I start with how the roles generally influences the tactic and other players/roles in the team.

 

Comment: The stats are generally better with a CF, this can solely be due to randomness and how the match played out. To validate more data is needed (more matches).

 

Comment: The right image and no. 20 was a substitute (normally the match are replayed due to the principle of all else being equal when testing/making asummptions based on data). Still the teams shape and the roles average positioning in posession is quite the same, except the team is positioned slightly lower with the DLF. This can be just randomness/how the match played, or because the DLF more frequent moves deeper and hinders team mates (central) positioning higher up the pitch.

 

Comment: The CF are more involved in posession involved in more passing combinations. Also the passing is more skewed to the left with the DLF. Can be randomness with data from just one match.

Then compare stats for the roles:

Shots/goals

 

Comment: Not much to say, finishing inside the penalty area. Too little data to make assumptions, even though the CF bagged two goals. Move onto qualitative analysis and watching the goals:

 

Comment: The first goal scored are a through ball behind the defence. This the DLF even with roaming do to a lesser extent. The second goal is a cross from the rigth IW, due to the CF more eager to run behind, selldom happens when playing with a DLF. Both goals a result of the CF role's behaviour.

Passing/crossing (delivered & received)

  

Comment: The CF contributes more vertical in central areas, the DLF acting more lateral and drifting to the left (right footed). Also the DLF has more passes going backwards.

Individual average positions/heat map

 

Comment: Here we see the same pattern as above. Note that the DLF's behaviour by dropping deep and to the left can influence the whole teams passing and positioning. Will look for this in the next matches.

vs Bordeaux playing 433 (CF (left images) - DLF (right images))

 

Comment. The difference in results can be due to randomness, as the two first Bordeaux goals where from corner/free kick situations when using a DLF. 

 

Comment: Nothing other than the no.9 is playing in a role he is comfortable in when playing as a DLF. As CF he is positioned deeper because he does not master the role. Yildirim (no.9) is according to ability just one star for the CF role (one reason why this role has not been used). This is an example of when not to draw final conclusions on tactics when players are not suited for a role in it. There might be false results.

 

Comment: The CF involved in 33 passing combinations. The DLF involved in 46 passing combinations. The DLF drops slightly deeper and to the left for passing.

Shooting

Comment: Neither the CF or the DLF has a shot at goal.

 

Comment: Nothing other than DLF dropping deeper and to the left.

 

Comment: Nothing

vs Le Havre playing 433 (CF (left images) - DLF (right images))

 

Comment: Difference in statistics due to randomness. 

 

Comment: With the DLF the team for the 2nd time positions themselves slightly deeper.

 

Comment: CF involved in 47 passing combinations. The DLF 57 passing combinations. Differences in average passing positions for the front 5. With the CF the front 5 are on a line, with the DLF he is the furthest forward and the four others more withdrawn. The rest of the team slightly more withdrawn.

Shots/goals

 

Comment: Goal scored by CF could also have been scored in the DLF role. As seen in the rigth image with the DLF on attack duty, same assister with the rigth IW.

Passes/crosses

 

Comment: The CF deepest involvment is defensive set-pieces. Percentage wise the DLF drops slightly deeper, and more to the left.

Comment: The biggest blue dots shows the pattern mentioned above. Some of the smaller dots are related to corners/throw ins.

vs Rakow playing 4231 (CF (left images) - DLF (right images))

 

Comment: Randomness causes the difference in statistics. No clear patterns.

  

Comment: No.8 substitute in the 83rd minute (left image). The team positioned slightly higher with the DLF role,

 

Comment: The CF involved in 61 passing combinations. The DLF involved in 105 passing combinations (master's the role).

 

Comment: Yildirim is a decent choice for DLF role as seen by his two goals well inside the box.

 

Comment: The DLF heavily involved in central areas in all phases of the build-up/possession. Rakow played in a 4231 and this can have made the space available for him to exploit and shine.

 

Comment: Nothing

vs Clermont playing 3412 (CF (left images) - DLF (right images))

 

Comments: Clermont goals in both matches from corners. Differences in statistics due to randomness. Big difference in number of crosses and medium difference for OPPDA.

 

 Comments : Again the CM's slightly deeper positioned when playing with a DLF. This is logical as the DLF drops deeper and occupies the space the CM's can move into. This again can have an effect on the positioning for the players positoned deeper than the CM's. 

 

Comments: CF involved in 35 passing combinations. DLF involved in 48 passing combinations.

 

Comment: The DLF has more shots.

 

Comments: The DLF slightly biased to the left in passing involvment.

 

Comment: Nothing, DLF biased to the left.

Summary:

• The data from the matches where Kalimuendo has played in the CF/DLF roles, equally adept at playing both roles, the results are more emphasized.
• The DLF drops deeper and contributes in build-ups there. He is biased to moving to the left side of the pitch, this I do not know why is happening. The tactic is symmetrical and the players filling the role are right footed. The latter can be part of the cause why this is happening.
• There is a tendency when playing with a DLF that the CM's are positioned deeper and also the rest of the team are slightly deeper. This is because the DLF occupies space the CM's could move into. This has a chain reaction also affecting the Libero/DM.
• There is a tendency that the CF will stay more central than the DLF and also make more runs behind the opposition defenders.

I want the CM's to be higher up in  possession without making them Mezzala's, as well as earlier in possession threatening the space behind the opposition defence without using Countr as a TI. Changing the DLF to CF can increase the ratio of both and there is no consistent results that using a CF reduces possession.

The DLF contributes more in the build-up in deeper areas and creates overloads in midfield. Still the teams compact shape as well as the 2nd line of the rest defence together with the CM's constitutes a a four man central midfield which shoud be sufficient for controlling the midfield. There is also the opportunity to use other rest defence set-ups where players are moved from the 1st line to the 2nd line of the rest defence in a 2-3 or 1-4 for the purpose of controlling the midfield.

Notes: The tactical familiarity for the DLF role is fluid, as for the CF it is at the low levels during testing. This can further enhance performance with that role both for players filling it as well as the team when this is also fluid.

Edited December 28, 2023 by cmonreds

[cmonreds]

The advantage of not using width/extreme width in possession is that the teams stays in a compact shape in all phases of the play. This leads to quicker transitions and effective counter pressing. the draw back is that it can be easy for the opposition to prevent your teams attacking play by staying compact. When not utilizing width, it is important to be able to play through the opponents being compact. This requires players with decent ability to move and find offensive positions as well as ball skills and passing. The youtube video below shows the tactic doing this:

Mastering tight and contested space

[HanziZoloman]

Am 20.12.2023 um 15:16 schrieb cmonreds:

That sweet spot are the aim of this thread, myself I hope to learn by other forum members contributions and ideas, their/yours perspectives might in the end be what make the tactic succesfull.

I learnt much in the thread (FM22) „defending like a real 442“ I don‘t remember the creator but he had both strikers on (S) and of course an CF helps a lot. He did do the tactic with less capable teams and had no CF(S). You can always train PPMs get further forward, tries to beat off side trap runs with ball etc to stay highly fluid and attack more space. 
It‘s an inspiring piece of work you did here and maybe things improve further. Barcelona had a lot of (S) duties I‘d say, players focussing on helping each other but they also had one brilliance attacking player like Robaldinho or Messi who were more focussed on goalscoring. Maybe you could create that player who is attacking from everywhere on the pitch. 

[cmonreds]

8 hours ago, HanziZoloman said:

I learnt much in the thread (FM22) „defending like a real 442“ I don‘t remember the creator but he had both strikers on (S) and of course an CF helps a lot. He did do the tactic with less capable teams and had no CF(S). You can always train PPMs get further forward, tries to beat off side trap runs with ball etc to stay highly fluid and attack more space. 
It‘s an inspiring piece of work you did here and maybe things improve further. Barcelona had a lot of (S) duties I‘d say, players focussing on helping each other but they also had one brilliance attacking player like Robaldinho or Messi who were more focussed on goalscoring. Maybe you could create that player who is attacking from everywhere on the pitch. 

Thanks for your suggestion and tip about thread. Things have to improve further.. I probably spend to much time on this, but are taking things step by step and want to fully understand why things work or does not work.

How the rest defence is set-up is maybe the most important thing. Which roles used for rotational play and how many players used in the rest defence and the 1st and 2nd line influences counter pressure and recycling possession. Even though the roles/players in a 3-2 will venture forward when there is just 1-2 opposition players staying forward, they do it later, more selldom and are positioned deeper in average positions during matches. With a 3-2 you basically only attack with five players which are outnumbered by the opposition defence. When the tactic is emphasizing outplaying the opposition with quick and short passing this very often is not possible higher up the field du to attacking players being outnumbered with a 3-2 rest defence. The 3-2 is demanding more quality of the attacking five due to them being outnumbered.

Changing to a 2-3 puts three players in the 2nd line with broader coverage of the pitch for the 2nd line, this leads to a stronger possibility of a more effective counter press if loosing the ball. The 2nd line is positioned higher up the pitch leads to more passes higher up the pitch and increasing the chance of key passes from the 2nd line. The best version of the 2-3 rest defence tested is where the 2nd line consists of a DM and two IWB's. The IWB's in the 2nd line will contribute wide by going outside the compact shape far more often than the IFB's in the 1st line in a 3-2 rest defence. Avg. positions in possession and passing map for a 2-3 (left) and a 3-2 with CM's (right) below:

  

 

When having three players in the 2nd line, to avoid being to vertically compact the MC's role should change from Central Midfielders to Mezzala's / APM's or a combination of those (I use Mezzala's when testing). For a very fluid tactic. a 2-3 only uses two defend duties, this gives the possibility for allocating an attacking duty (max 3 non-support duties for very fluid on positive/balanced mentality) to create the brilliant attacking player as you mentioned. For attacking mentality this can be increased to two attacking duties.

Against 433 the 2-3 rest defence yields very good results due to that formation only has one central player in the forward/AM strata. During testing it fared decently well also against 4231, 422, 3412 and 3421 (AM). For the 2-3 it is possible to instruct the DC's to stay wider (this was done during a match against 442). Lastly changing the DM role to Half-back gives a 3-2 rest defence where the IWB's constitutes the 2nd line. Summarized: The 3-2 is better to cover defensive space whilst the 2-3 is better for counter-pressing. In possession the 3-2 is better for recycling possession deeper, whilst the 2-3 is better for possession and chance creation. I have not tested/pondered about the opposition style of play such as wing play (if counter attack set up with wide players), passing length/directness.

The 2-3 gives better results and chance creation compared to the 3-2 I have used in the tactic. Testing below:

Edited December 29, 2023 by cmonreds

[HanziZoloman]

@cmonreds great testing, I am following and implementing some things in my YAC team in league two. I have outstanding passers in MC and one special player who can play every role up front but is more a scorer than this Ronaldinho guy. 

For six attacking players you‘ll need one player who is changing his place in the game by positional play, one extra man who will leave the 2-3 or 3-2 rest defence and contribute up front. If both FB are IWB(S) it could be a Volante(S) which is also a supporting role. He will move into MC and AM positions. It depends on how the IWB react on this. 
Or (I think much better) one IWB could change into WB(S) and will go up the field the other rest defence will stay 2-2 and the Winger could be an IF(S). Four men for cover and you could easily switch back into 2-3 or even 3-2 rest defence. The question is: which will be your special man(?). 
With me it should be the IF on (A) for the main scorer. IWB(S) two CD and a DM(S). 
 

      W(S) DLF(S) IF(A) 

          MEZ(S) AP(S)

               DM(S)

IWB(S) CD(D) CD(D) WB(S)

               SK(S)

 

Or: take a DLP who will hold position a MC(S) and a BWM(S) for a compact midfield. 

questions:

why do you want this very fluid system again (?)

Are the inverted wing players up front giving enough width (?)

They could easily be Wingers on support, I noticed that „wrong“ footed wingers are also cutting inside like IW or even IF but are far more wide in the first place and stay wide for longer periods. Especially in Defense they are far less out of position as they don’t cut in deep like IW or IF. 

where did you put the special player?

thanks and keep up the good work.

Edited December 29, 2023 by HanziZoloman

[cmonreds]

8 hours ago, HanziZoloman said:

"For six attacking players you‘ll need one player who is changing his place in the game by positional play, one extra man who will leave the 2-3 or 3-2 rest defence and contribute up front. If both FB are IWB(S) it could be a Volante(S) which is also a supporting role. He will move into MC and AM positions. It depends on how the IWB react on this."

The Volante would solve a lot, but can not be used in a 433 with just one player in the DM position. The only option is using the RPM to achieve this in a 433. For now I am reluctant to change formation, but the 4231, 442, 3421AM and also 4321 have been considered.

"Or (I think much better) one IWB could change into WB(S) and will go up the field the other rest defence will stay 2-2 and the Winger could be an IF(S). Four men for cover and you could easily switch back into 2-3 or even 3-2 rest defence." This is probably the best option when reducing the rest defence to four players. Would prefer the 2-2 before the 3-1 because it enables two players in the 2nd line and better counter pressing.

"The question is: which will be your special man(?)".  That is a fun and exciting question.

"With me it should be the IF on (A) for the main scorer. IWB(S) two CD and a DM(S). " The IF is a very good solution for this, also the Ramdeuter is an option. I really like the set-up and rationale for your set-up below, the end result of this thread might be similiar. You got a variety of roles, width on both sides with the Wingback and Winger (Wingers good this year) which can enable cut inside/cross from byline for short crosses/cut backs. Also the DLF dropping deep creates space for your IF(A). Would you focus wide play/crossing for delivery to the IF(A)? The winger cross to far post/wingback cross to near post?
 

      W(S) DLF(S) IF(A) 

          MEZ(S) AP(S)

               DM(S)

IWB(S) CD(D) CD(D) WB(S)  

               SK(S)

But for now I am sticking to the tactical set-up in the image below as base tactic, as the winger is hardcoded and adds more width to positioning of the tactic, the tactic aims for using the minimum required width to create whilst keeping the shape compact for quick transitions and good positioning for counter pressure. Assignment of the attacking the duty for the special player can change roles though. I really like the idea of a Henry or early Messi by allocating attacking duty wide.

 

 

"Or: take a DLP who will hold position a MC(S) and a BWM(S) for a compact midfield. " : This is an option if the DLF is back in play in the tactic.

questions:

why do you want this very fluid system again (?) : The amount of support duties, players coming close to help each other, as well as contributing both in attack and defence. The idea of the team as one unit, collective pressing, also I have not seen any very fluid tactics created?

Are the inverted wing players up front giving enough width (?): I went for minimum width, the IW's have neither sit narrower/stay wider as PI. In the image of the tactic above the IWB's seems to utilize the available wide space more frequently. Also my impression is that the Mezzala's push the IW's slightly wider due to the Mezzala's occupying space the IW's could move into/positioning themselves. IWB using available wide space in images below:

  

 

They could easily be Wingers on support, I noticed that „wrong“ footed wingers are also cutting inside like IW or even IF but are far more wide in the first place and stay wide for longer periods. Especially in Defense they are far less out of position as they don’t cut in deep like IW or IF.: If the minimum width created/used for now is not sufficient the wingers are back in play, either on one flank or both.

where did you put the special player? I am still pondering about it and taking in your suggestions, maybe the striker for positive mentality version of the tactic, and both IW's for the attacking mentality version. I will test different solutions and post in the thread.

thanks and keep up the good work: Thank you very much for good suggestions and food for thought 

 

Edited December 30, 2023 by cmonreds

[cmonreds]

Testing attacking duty/special player

Decided to the left AML as a IW(A) since he is better as an IW and has the tactical familiarity for that role, this will produce more correct results/data. Will get a first glimpse of how the role behaves and if it has any effect on the overall team for the tactic.

Testing match: Against Lask in the CL, they are currently in the 35th position in the League phase table.

Normal tactic (left images) / AML IW(a) role in tactic (right images)

Team

 

Comment: xG higher with the IW(a) also due to a penalty. More CCC's. The variation in stats can be due to randomness and prolonged testing is needed. Still, possession drops slightly (acceptable when creating more chances), more accurate passes - attack and more progressive passes can lead to the decrease in final third passes (being more direct/penetrates the defence reduces passes in final 3rd). OPPDA reduced, can be random or the attacking duty inclined to defend less.

  

Comment: The very small change in positioning in possession (team deeper/IW(a) slightly higher) are due to randomness. Nothing can be drawn from this, unless tested for more matches.

  

Comment: When both IW's are on support duty, there is a tendency and also randomness in the match which leads to one of them sometimes positioned higher than the other. Perhaps with an attacking duty the pattern will be more regular for the attacking IW being this player. No big influence on the teams overall passing map (as with positioning).

Player

Left image (normal): Finishing off 2 half chances/1 shot blocked - Passes/Crosses: 2 key passes / 1 cross attempt. Right image (IW(a)): One shot saved - Passes/Crosses: 4 key passes (2 CCC's) / total 6 cross attempts

 

Comment: The IW with attacking duty is more of a creator, an IF(a) will probably be more of a goalscorer. The attacking duty leads more penetration and actions from the IW higher up the pitch. Also passing directions (green arrows) are more attacking with passes going slightly more forward.

Left image (normal): 4 dribbles/1 offside, avg. positioning in/out of possession and heat map. Rigth image (IW(a)): 4 dribbles.

  

Comment: Bigger distance between avg. positioning in/out of possession when the IW has support duty, compared to attacking duty. The rest of the teams positioning is verified to have the same pattern (support duties), indicating that attack duty will lead to the players avg. positioning out of possession to be higher and more biased to attacking. In the teams overall shape this is okay as other players will cover for him. Attacking duty has more penetrating dribbles higher up the pitch (the incident with the penalty below, can be a pattern or one time incident). Heat map more involved in central areas higher up, wide involvment can be due to receiving from corners/throw ins. Overall the attacking duty on the heat map/dribbles are more directed towards the opposition goal.

The IW with attacking duty where directly involved in two goals.

Assist to the CF:

CF drops deep, IW(a) runs behind, cuts inside to the byline, short pass (data analytics recognise this as a pass) to the CF on the near post who scores

  

Prelude to the penalty (AML/IW(a) fouled in the box)

CF tackled, ball is loose, IW(a) picks up the loose ball and dribbles and is fouled inside the box.

  

Summary: First impression is that one attacking duty worked well, the duty can be assigned to the strongest own player or at the opposition weak side. When changing duties for the same role (players trained in it), the change in support/attacking duty has very low penalty/reduction of tactical familiarity. This gives the freedom and versatility to change this as appropriate.

Edited December 30, 2023 by cmonreds

[HanziZoloman]

Great answers and much to experiment further. Thank you @cmonreds
 

I tried it myself but got a bad game and got crushed 4:1 away against Bristol Rovers.  

Edited December 30, 2023 by HanziZoloman

[cmonreds]

Same variables for testing.

Testing match: Away vs Lille currently at 7th place in the league.

Normal tactic (left imaes) / AML IW(a) role in the tactic (right images)

Team

 

Comment: Difference in xG can be due to randomness. As the first match tested decrease of long shots with the attacking duty. Again CCC's created with the attacking duty. Possession slightly lower again (2-3 %), acceptable when creating. Attacking duty can be removed when possession is the aim to see out mathces. Change in pass completion in attack decreased with attacking duty (opposite to former match, no pattern and can be due to randomness). Increase in crosses with attacking duty can also be due to randomness. Slight increase in progressive passes (10%) and decrease in final 3rd passes, same pattern as previous test match. Own team's OPPDA again higher with the attacking duty (the pattern not the numbers is important, the huge difference for this match could be an outlier/extreme exception).

Avg. positioning in possession

 

Comment: The positioning of no. 2 on the left/normal image and slightly on the right image indicates that something was at fault at that side during the match. Lille aimed for wing play in a 4231 and this could influence this/be the cause (Note: they played with a 433 during the match, deviating from the match summary formation)  A 3-2 rest defence provides better coverage for defensive zones, no goals/CCC's where produced against due to using a 2-3 rest defence. This could be noise. One more thing is that the Mezzala at the side of the IW(a) is slightly more higher positioned, the logical reason or this is that the IW(a) higher positioning leads to him doing the same,due to available space as well moving close to him for short passes. The same pattern in the previous testing match.

Avg. positioning out of possession

 

Comment: Purpose of avg. positioning out of possession for the whole team is to look further into the positioning of the IW(a) positioning compared to the rest of the team. Again the same pattern the IW(a) positioned higher.

Passing map

 

Comment: The IW(a) positioned higher for avg. passing on attacking duty, still not higher than the opposite IW(s) as in the previous test match. There can be something with Lille's tactic disturbing our play. There is something odd here. Their right side during/in match looked like the left image below, as compared to the end of match summary in the right image below. Managerial/AI trickery or bug?

 

Player

Shots/passes/crosses

Left/normal: 3 shot attempts one saved, no crosses one key pass (yellow). Right/IW(a): no shots, two crosses, two key passes where one led to a CCC.

 

Comment: Again the IW(a) creates more chances, no pattern can be confirmed in regard to passing directions and central involvement as this was opposite compared to previous test match. Can be due to Lille having a better defence than LASK.

Dribbles/offsided/avg. positioning in/out of possession and heat map

Left image/normal: 7 dribbles/1 offside. Right image/IW(a): seven dribbles.

 

Comment: Not much to say, could be randomness resulting in the heat map. IW(a) dribbles more vertical and forward directed. Probably no/minimal available space in centre due to Lille having a decent defence.

Summary: The IW(a) creates more than the IW(s), for the team as a whole possession is slightly decreased. The reduction in final 3rd passes are due to more "directness" and chance creation with the attacking duty. The IW(a) out of possession higher up the pitch, is compensated for with the tactic/teams shape and has not led to a weaker defence.

 

Edited December 30, 2023 by cmonreds

[HanziZoloman]

Well I think having your defence that stable is a top achievement, now it’s time to switch gears up front and try to attack with six players to not fall into the boring tiki taka trap (?)

is it possible to have a very fluid shape with enough penetration (?) 

It‘s a total football question and we could need some advise by the mighty @crusadertsar  

[cmonreds]

15 minutes ago, HanziZoloman said:

Well I think having your defence that stable is a top achievement, now it’s time to switch gears up front and try to attack with six players to not fall into the boring tiki taka trap (?)

A: It is possible with a rest defence in a 2-3 set-up to get decent attack. The 2nd line (IWB's & DM) will at a sufficient frequence perform more attacking actions (runs/passes/crosses/go wide). But advices on the 2-2 would be very nice. Currently either changing one of the IWB's to CWB/WB or the DM to a RPM is my thinking.

is it possible to have a very fluid shape with enough penetration (?) 

A: Yup, assigning the attacking duty(ies) will do this. Attacking mentality enables two attacking duties in the current 2-3 set-up and very fluid.

It‘s a total football question and we could need some advise by the mighty @crusadertsar  

A: That would be great if he took the time 

I will write a summary of the thread as it is a lot written if newcomers wants to participate, also with the reasoning for my answers to your last post 

Edited December 30, 2023 by cmonreds

[HanziZoloman]

vor 18 Minuten schrieb cmonreds:

I will write a summary of the thread as it is a lot written if newcomers wants to participate, also with the reasoning for my answers to your last post 

Sounds good because it’s very helpful 

[cmonreds]

Summary

The thread and tactics has gone back and forth, concentrated around what is summarized in the below image. The lack of consistent penetration and creating chances in possession has been the fault with the tactics tried. Improvement of this should not be at a too heavily cost/reduction in possession and defensive solidity. Data analytics have been used for analysing how the tactic and changes plays out.

Also width has been a big topic in the thread. It is reduced and aimed for minimum width to achieve chance creation. The IW's has no PI for lateral position (stay wider/sit narrower), this can reduce chance creation as there are no fullbacks/wingback coming wide. Still roaming and IWB's in a 2-3 shape leads to escpecially the IWB's and sometimes the Mezzala's with decent frequency going wide in the available space there. Passes and crosses from the two IWB's from two matches:

 

All of this has led to the following tactical set showing most promise in finding the optimum between possession, defensive solidity and creating chances:

Attacking mentality with 2 defend and 2 attacking duties, and positive mentality where attacking duties are reduced to 1

  

This could be complemented with a 3-2 rest defence version, for matches where it is more important to cover defensive space against counter attacks than counter pressuring. The 3-2 will be more defensive by nature within the very fluid duties structure as no attacking duties are allocated. Also a 2-2 rest defence version can complement the tactical set with the possibility for adding an attacking duty. The 2-2 can free one player contributing to attacks either wide or central. My preference would be central to keep the compact shape, still this will most likely be the DM being changed to RPM for most effect, I am not totally convinced by the testing of this role. The advantage of using a WB instead of a CWB in a 2-2 is the possibility to add instructions that tweaks the position lateral (stay narrower).

 

Brief testing of the two first tactics are very promising. The dominate version has been tested on both home and away matches, no in-game management/subs just too see how it fares. Too create chances it is very good. The IW's on attacking duty leads to both goalscoring and assisting with short crosses/passes from the byline close to the goal. Two videos shows the attacking play and generally also how most goals are conceded, from set-pieces and crosses/wide play:

The 1st match is at home vs Brest (possession: 73 %): Home vs Brest

The 2nd match is away vs Lens (possession: 68%): Away vs Lens

A question to the community: Training set-pieces: does this just train the described attributes or does it also have an in-game effect?

2nd question to the community: Has anyone tested the following:

A DM (or any position) only trained for the position they train in, changing between different roles as DM(s) and HB as in image below, and achieved full tactical familiarity for both ?

  

 

Edited December 30, 2023 by cmonreds