Club DNA: El rondo

[Dr Naysay]

Just watched both those YouTube clips. Some filthy goals in there and you're getting to that sweetspot.

I honestly wish some people were as patient when it came to carrying out their tactical progressions.

[cmonreds]

57 minutes ago, Dr Naysay said:

Just watched both those YouTube clips. Some filthy goals in there and you're getting to that sweetspot.

I honestly wish some people were as patient when it came to carrying out their tactical progressions.

The tactical process can be ending with enjoying the sweet spot  Attacks are good and can be difficult to prevent for the oppositiion. In a very fluid duty structure and not utilizing width this might be the best that I can achieve for finding the optimum. Waiting to see if someone has any pointers/ideas that can improve things. It was the input from HanziZoloman that pushed me in the right direction on this. Easy to get stuck and to narrow minded on own concepts when doing this.

[cmonreds]

Here are the tactics if anyone wants to try/test and improve on their own. el Rondo 3-2 is on balanced mentality mostly for training/achieving tactical familiarity all three used mentalities which is attacking, positive and balanced. If switching the 3-2 to attacking the CF can/should be on attacking duty.

el Rondo_2-3_Control.fmf

el Rondo_2-3_Dominate.fmf

el Rondo_3-2.fmf

Edited December 30, 2023 by cmonreds

[yonko]

@cmonreds 

Nice testing and analysis. I admire your dedication and work on this. Let me share some thoughts and observations. 

Have you tested the tactic with IWs on Support Duty with PI Get Further Forward? This should give you some more punch in creating chances, while also allowing you to give an Attack duty to the ST or one of the MEZs. I think which one gets the Attack duty also depends on what formation the opposition uses too. 

The idea of Very Fluid structure is nice but in order to really pull it off you need players with very good attributes and even some attack minded Player Traits to give you some punch in attack in terms of chance creation and goal scoring to compliment the possession dominance. 

The idea behind Pep's tactical concepts at Barca (classic version) and City (modern version) is that many support duties require one special attacking player (Messi, Haaland/KDB) to provide that cutting edge. In FM you either need that player with the attributes & traits or you need the Attacking role. You also need that secondary attacking threat too - at Barca that was Villa, Messi was the primary. Currently at City in the absence of both Haaland and KDB, Alvarez is the primary while Foden is the secondary attacking threat. The rest of the roles were creators, recyclers and recoverers. 

To use classic example of Pep's Barca:

Pique, Puyol and Abidal - recoverers and your rest defense 

Busquets - recycler

Xavi and Dani Alves - both recyclers and creators

Iniesta - creator

Pedro - creator and scorer

Villa - secondary scorer

Messi - primary scorer and main man, special player

 

Modern example at Man City currently:

Walker, Dias and Gvardiol - recoverers/rest defense 

Rodri and Stones - recyclers and creators

Kovacic - recycler and creator

Bernardo and Grealish - creators (& occasional scorers)

Foden - secondary scorer

Alvarez - primary scorer

 

If Pep doesn't use Stones or Akanji as Libero, then he allows Walker to play more as WB rather than IFB. Thus Walker becomes "recycler" and "creator". I think Pep is set on using 3-2 rest defense in any form to protect against counter attacks. The difference between his Barca version and his City version is who is providing the width in attack - at Barca it was Dani Alves and Villa or Alves and Abidal when Busquets would drop between the CBs as HB. While at City the width comes from the wide creators Bernardo and Grealish (or Foden and Doku). Another difference is the defensive shape. At Barca it was 4-1-4-1 while at City it is 4-4-1-1

[cmonreds]

4 hours ago, yonko said:

@cmonreds 

Nice testing and analysis. I admire your dedication and work on this. Let me share some thoughts and observations. 

Have you tested the tactic with IWs on Support Duty with PI Get Further Forward? This should give you some more punch in creating chances, while also allowing you to give an Attack duty to the ST or one of the MEZs. I think which one gets the Attack duty also depends on what formation the opposition uses too. 

The idea of Very Fluid structure is nice but in order to really pull it off you need players with very good attributes and even some attack minded Player Traits to give you some punch in attack in terms of chance creation and goal scoring to compliment the possession dominance. 

The idea behind Pep's tactical concepts at Barca (classic version) and City (modern version) is that many support duties require one special attacking player (Messi, Haaland/KDB) to provide that cutting edge. In FM you either need that player with the attributes & traits or you need the Attacking role. You also need that secondary attacking threat too - at Barca that was Villa, Messi was the primary. Currently at City in the absence of both Haaland and KDB, Alvarez is the primary while Foden is the secondary attacking threat. The rest of the roles were creators, recyclers and recoverers. 

To use classic example of Pep's Barca:

Pique, Puyol and Abidal - recoverers and your rest defense 

Busquets - recycler

Xavi and Dani Alves - both recyclers and creators

Iniesta - creator

Pedro - creator and scorer

Villa - secondary scorer

Messi - primary scorer and main man, special player

 

Modern example at Man City currently:

Walker, Dias and Gvardiol - recoverers/rest defense 

Rodri and Stones - recyclers and creators

Kovacic - recycler and creator

Bernardo and Grealish - creators (& occasional scorers)

Foden - secondary scorer

Alvarez - primary scorer

 

If Pep doesn't use Stones or Akanji as Libero, then he allows Walker to play more as WB rather than IFB. Thus Walker becomes "recycler" and "creator". I think Pep is set on using 3-2 rest defense in any form to protect against counter attacks. The difference between his Barca version and his City version is who is providing the width in attack - at Barca it was Dani Alves and Villa or Alves and Abidal when Busquets would drop between the CBs as HB. While at City the width comes from the wide creators Bernardo and Grealish (or Foden and Doku). Another difference is the defensive shape. At Barca it was 4-1-4-1 while at City it is 4-4-1-1

Hi Yonko,

Thanks for your inputs and advice. Yes the IW's have PI get further in all the versions of the tactic throughout the thread, as you say to get some more attacking punch. Agree with you on allocation of attacking duty/duties dependant on the opposition formation. The thread has not reached that point yet, where this has been examined/analysed. Any experiences or advice on this would be great.

Also agree with you on very fluid being demanding on attributes/quality of players. In possession and attacking wise (lots of roaming) players needs to be good at reading the game and make decisions, movement without and with the ball, very good at both the mental and technical aspects of passing, the added compactness of the tactic also puts an extra toll on the already important skill of receiving and quickly controlling the ball (first touch/technique). Add teamwork, workrate and out of possession attributes to the mix as well. Still, it should be possible to pull it of with Rennes in the Ligue 1 in a few seasons.

Fully agree with you on the special/cutting edge attacking player, during the thread this input from others as well has led to this being included in the tactic duty wise at first. Attributes wise in a few seasons a special attacking player might arise from the younger players at Rennes, untill then and also my preference is doing this duty wise.

I really like your explanation of the classic and modern Guardiola tactic, and also bringing in the 2nd attacking threat. For the very fluid duty structure/frame with balanced/positive mentality and two defending duties (2-3 rest defence) this has to be attribute wise (already one attacking duty allocated). 

I am a keen admirer of Guardiola tactically, still the thread and discussed tactic differs with some of his principles. The main one being not to maintain width with one player staying wider at each flank. Width and wide areas will still be used but to a lesser extent compared to Guardiola. Think Emery and Aston Villa. Also currently the 2-3 rest defence is preferred due to three players in the 2nd line and better positioned to apply quicker counter pressing, this ties in with the compact shape (reduced width). I now probably have to play for 2-3 seasons to see what results the tactics brings. Possession is benchmarked at 65 % average in the league when team cohesion is at full and the squad has evolved. If the tactic does not bring the intended results/statistics, all your advices will be taken aboard with hindsight. 

Edited December 31, 2023 by cmonreds

[yonko]

11 hours ago, cmonreds said:

Hi Yonko,

Thanks for your inputs and advice. Yes the IW's have PI get further in all the versions of the tactic throughout the thread, as you say to get some more attacking punch. Agree with you on allocation of attacking duty/duties dependant on the opposition formation. The thread has not reached that point yet, where this has been examined/analysed. Any experiences or advice on this would be great.

Also agree with you on very fluid being demanding on attributes/quality of players. In possession and attacking wise (lots of roaming) players needs to be good at reading the game and make decisions, movement without and with the ball, very good at both the mental and technical aspects of passing, the added compactness of the tactic also puts an extra toll on the already important skill of receiving and quickly controlling the ball (first touch/technique). Add teamwork, workrate and out of possession attributes to the mix as well. Still, it should be possible to pull it of with Rennes in the Ligue 1 in a few seasons.

Fully agree with you on the special/cutting edge attacking player, during the thread this input from others as well has led to this being included in the tactic duty wise at first. Attributes wise in a few seasons a special attacking player might arise from the younger players at Rennes, untill then and also my preference is doing this duty wise.

I really like your explanation of the classic and modern Guardiola tactic, and also bringing in the 2nd attacking threat. For the very fluid duty structure/frame with balanced/positive mentality and two defending duties (2-3 rest defence) this has to be attribute wise (already one attacking duty allocated). 

I am a keen admirer of Guardiola tactically, still the thread and discussed tactic differs with some of his principles. The main one being not to maintain width with one player staying wider at each flank. Width and wide areas will still be used but to a lesser extent compared to Guardiola. Think Emery and Aston Villa. Also currently the 2-3 rest defence is preferred due to three players in the 2nd line and better positioned to apply quicker counter pressing, this ties in with the compact shape (reduced width). I now probably have to play for 2-3 seasons to see what results the tactics brings. Possession is benchmarked at 65 % average in the league when team cohesion is at full and the squad has evolved. If the tactic does not bring the intended results/statistics, all your advices will be taken aboard with hindsight. 

Sorry, I must've missed the part where you mention the PIs on the IWs. Btw, what are all the PIs the current versions of the tactics use?

I think in the 2-2 rest defense version, you can make the IW in front of the WB more attacking, almost like a second ST (maybe even try IF on Attack Duty?). Also change the MEZ to CM or AP role. On the other side, the IW can have Stay Wider or switch to Winger role. I think this is something Xavi likes to use with Barca. Balde is the WB, Cancelo is the IWB, Felix tucks in from the AML position, the MCR is more advanced, MCL drops almost to form a 3 with the DM and IWB, AMR stays wide. Last season without Cancelo, it was Kounde at RB who was playing more like IFB though.

Personally I prefer more the Classic Barca version of Pep from 2010-11 season. That is my benchmark IRL and FM terms. Regarding benchmarking possession numbers, that team IRL averaged around 67.4% possession for the season in La Liga and 67.9% possession in the CL. So if you average 65% in FM then that is a good achievement. How is your team in Chances Created, Expected Goals and Shots on Target %, overall and per game? If your team is also in the top 2 in those stats, then you have a good balance of controlling possession while also having enough attacking edge.

How is your Rennes team doing vs PSG and teams of that caliber? 

 

[coach vahid]

Maybe a stupid question... Why you don't use the preset tiki-taka ? Not the roles but the team instructions.

[HanziZoloman]

@cmonreds good work. Would like to see those by @yonko mentioned stats above too.

btw you could easily add an extra threat by using an IF(S) which keeps your very fluid shape and also contributes some penetration.

My IF often has like 20 scorer points per season, in the YAC, so he’s VN Level but plays EFL.

 

Edited January 1 by HanziZoloman

[cmonreds]

19 hours ago, yonko said:

Sorry, I must've missed the part where you mention the PIs on the IWs. Btw, what are all the PIs the current versions of the tactics use?

I think in the 2-2 rest defense version, you can make the IW in front of the WB more attacking, almost like a second ST (maybe even try IF on Attack Duty?). Also change the MEZ to CM or AP role. On the other side, the IW can have Stay Wider or switch to Winger role. I think this is something Xavi likes to use with Barca. Balde is the WB, Cancelo is the IWB, Felix tucks in from the AML position, the MCR is more advanced, MCL drops almost to form a 3 with the DM and IWB, AMR stays wide. Last season without Cancelo, it was Kounde at RB who was playing more like IFB though.

Personally I prefer more the Classic Barca version of Pep from 2010-11 season. That is my benchmark IRL and FM terms. Regarding benchmarking possession numbers, that team IRL averaged around 67.4% possession for the season in La Liga and 67.9% possession in the CL. So if you average 65% in FM then that is a good achievement. How is your team in Chances Created, Expected Goals and Shots on Target %, overall and per game? If your team is also in the top 2 in those stats, then you have a good balance of controlling possession while also having enough attacking edge.

How is your Rennes team doing vs PSG and teams of that caliber? 

 

Happy new year everyone,

Good suggestions, in the end the tactic(s) might have to utilize width, one option is like in the 2-2 in this thread and as you describe.

Classic Barca/Pep from 2010-11 is also my favourite. The two books below about Barcelona are written about that season. FM24 with introduction of the IFB enables using the Abidal role as well. The thread/tactics has moved slightly away how Pep's principles. No "extreme" width and players not staggered like Xavi and Iniesta centrally. One solution would be to replicate the tactic(s) from 2010-11 using either HB or IFB to create the different build-ups, also the IF role would be included in the tactic if replicating those tactics.

As football has become more intense, Pep's tactics evolvied to how City currently plays has big advantages compared to the Barca period. By using the wide attackers for width and the fullbacks moving inside either in defence or midfield players has to run less, as well as concentrating on defending against counter attacks in the centre of the pitch (most dangerous area).

I have tested the last uploaded tactics for 1,5 season with Rennes. No IW's or players staying wider and only 3-2 and 2-3 versions used. Often when two Mezzala's get's forward and creates a front line of 5 players the IW's will be positioned quite wide. Also, the 3-2 is useful to have as well when playing against teams with 2 strikers. Against teams playing with just one striker I prefer the 2-3. During the first season in many matches attacking mentality were used.

Important to say that nn FM the rest defences are not static and instead quite dynamic in regard to how many opposition players staying forward (rest attack), if a clear overload players from the 1st line will also get further up the pitch. I do not have the complete oversight but attributes and difference between the roles can influence the rate of how often and when this happen. Stats from testing:

1st season

No incoming transfers and this is the squad used in the 1st season.

League 

 

   

 Matches

PSG matches

 

Monaco matches

 

Nice matches

 

2nd season (half played)

Has been some injuries, major as well from the 1st eleven, Attacking players out for the rest of the season.

League 

 

Matches

 

vs Nice (Route one), when they scored we chased the win. Before that dominating

 

The 2nd season will be challenging due to injuries. It has effected performance/results. Will play for three seasons before changing the tactic.

[cmonreds]

19 hours ago, coach vahid said:

Maybe a stupid question... Why you don't use the preset tiki-taka ? Not the roles but the team instructions.

There is never a stupid question, appreciate your suggestion and I had a look at them when I saw your post. They look decent, still I want to continue with the current tactic. Have you tried the presets? Will judge current tactic after the 3rd season. Increase width, consider 3-2 rest defence and applying roles that staggers positioning in central midfield are most likely changes if things doesn't work. 

Edited January 1 by cmonreds

[cmonreds]

4 hours ago, HanziZoloman said:

@cmonreds good work. Would like to see those by @yonko mentioned stats above too.

btw you could easily add an extra threat by using an IF(S) which keeps your very fluid shape and also contributes some penetration.

My IF often has like 20 scorer points per season, in the YAC, so he’s VN Level but plays EFL.

 

Yup, that is a good suggestion, similiar to yonko's goalscorers. These stats will come, the plan is to first play for three seasons with the current tactic.

[yonko]

@cmonreds

Nice stats considering the caliber of team you are using. As I said this style of play requires top players with good attributes, IRL and in FM. With improved quality of players the tactic will improve also. You are already doing a great job. Personally I don't have the patience or much interest to play with anyone else but Barcelona, especially rebuilding the team without Messi and with huge financial debt. 

I have the same books about Pep, Barca and Tiki Taka style, very informative and help to understand the concept. I agree, Pep has adapted and modified his tactic since the Barca days to now at City and still maintained a very high level and success rate. That's why keeps winning and winning trebles. 

I forgot to address something previously. On the last page you asked about training your DM on individual schedule. I personally always train my DMs individually set to DM-S role training. And I have noticed that there is very little penalty in role familiarity when switched to HB role in the tactic. I've been thinking to alternate on monthly basis role training for every player between two roles though. 

Speaking of training, what kind of training schedules have you been using? 

[stoonley]

Following this thread, just wanted to pipe in that I find this quite interesting. I’ve had quite a difficult time getting possession numbers up with my Liverpool save. Seemingly, last years tactics I used a heavy support role tactic with two CWB on support in the DM strata line to pretty good effect. This year that same tactic, I may go even in possession. So just not working. Used your tactics here and am getting nice possession numbers. Interested to see how this develops.

[cmonreds]

9 hours ago, yonko said:

@cmonreds

Nice stats considering the caliber of team you are using. As I said this style of play requires top players with good attributes, IRL and in FM. With improved quality of players the tactic will improve also. You are already doing a great job. Personally I don't have the patience or much interest to play with anyone else but Barcelona, especially rebuilding the team without Messi and with huge financial debt. 

I have the same books about Pep, Barca and Tiki Taka style, very informative and help to understand the concept. I agree, Pep has adapted and modified his tactic since the Barca days to now at City and still maintained a very high level and success rate. That's why keeps winning and winning trebles. 

I forgot to address something previously. On the last page you asked about training your DM on individual schedule. I personally always train my DMs individually set to DM-S role training. And I have noticed that there is very little penalty in role familiarity when switched to HB role in the tactic. I've been thinking to alternate on monthly basis role training for every player between two roles though. 

Speaking of training, what kind of training schedules have you been using? 

• Yes, if the players abilities/low age/team cohesion is not sufficiently high, it is visible in the highlights, passing mistakes, defensive errors and so on leads to not so good performance/results. Due to progress/development of cohesion and players the mistakes will be fewer and results/performance will be better. That is the main reason why I want to play for three seasons before making a final judgement. The 2nd season has not been kind, things looked very good untill injuries, and hitting the posts, a lot... Still this is football. 
• The books are nice and gives insight to the concepts. The slightly reduced width and emphasizing compactness is also due to the ability of the players, kind of a "poor man's tiki taka/possession" style of play. The tactic is defensively sound, this should be kept and improving the offensive play should be done within the overall shape of the tactic. Suggestions/awareness of the creators/goalscorers is probably the best way for this. The two central midfielders with equal roles might change if the IF role is used at one flank, using an AP(s) at the side of the IF ? 
• I noticed the same, the decrease in tactical familiarity is low, this gives a lot more versatility towards changing roles/tactics. I also noticed that this can be influenced by how adept the players are in different roles (the stars), the roles they are adept at will have lower decrease in familiarity even when not trained. This should also be tested and can be influenced by training the roles as one of the three tactics you can train. The fullbacks could be switched between CWB/WB and IWB/IFB if this is the case and the player is adept in all the roles. When playing compact like the tactic in the thread, against very narrow tactics like the 41212 width should be used. In the save against RB Salzburg we were leading 4-1 when they swithched to the 41212 (result 4-4).
• Training will be important in the final summary/re-writing of the thread. Do you have to train for the roles ? that is something that should be examined, escpecially for the youths. The training schedules is based on how many days a week the players can train. There will be small differences also for which day they play match(es). Training schedules below shows this:

1st team

One match a week not playing on Sunday consists of the same sessions but arranged differently as the one below (Friday):

One match on Sundays adds one more training day:

Two matches a week with the first on Tuesdays consists of the same sessions but arranged differently as the one below:

Two matches a week with the first on Wednesday consists of the same sessions but arranged differently as the one below:

Thursday/Sunday the same

Youth/Reserves schedules - removing match tactics and adding sessions for development. Have been thinking about remvoing match practice for the youths and not training for roles, adding other sessions for development.

1 match a week consists of the following sessions arranged differently depending of match day

2 matches a week consists of the following sessions arranged differently depending of match days

Edited January 2 by cmonreds

[cmonreds]

4 hours ago, stoonley said:

Following this thread, just wanted to pipe in that I find this quite interesting. I’ve had quite a difficult time getting possession numbers up with my Liverpool save. Seemingly, last years tactics I used a heavy support role tactic with two CWB on support in the DM strata line to pretty good effect. This year that same tactic, I may go even in possession. So just not working. Used your tactics here and am getting nice possession numbers. Interested to see how this develops.

Hi @stoonley,

We have followed the same tactical path, I have used the 433 with wingback positions for a long time in FM. This year using CWB's in the fullback position before deciding to aim for less width and being compact, and this increases possession due to better counter pressing/transitions/pressing. The team is much more challenging/difficult to play against. The main weakness is set-pieces or crosses all stemming from the opposition using the wide space the tactic leaves behind. This danger can probably be reduced by applying OI's on their wide players. Not excessive use of OI's just a balanced approach that doesn't affect the overall tactic but still reduces the effectiveness of their wide play. Should also be tested when the optimum/sweetspot has been found and the final tactic is decided upon.

[cmonreds]

Team cohesion soon at the maximum level, no moral/hapiness issues. This is important as this will triumph any tactic. There is no issues and if the tactic is decent/good the results/performance/stats should come.

January & February

In hindsight, often playing with attacking mentality and positive as the lowest. February also started to use the balanced mentality more against good opposition. Increases possession and control in the matches.

January matches

Against Troyes in the cup mentality should have been lowered to control/see out the match.

   

February matches

Against Monaco used 3-2 on balanced mentality. Nice our nemesis in the 4th league match against them the 1st point was earned. Positive mentality and attacking to chase goals as they were ahead. Same story in both Bayern matches. Lost both penalty shoot-outs in the cups, probably beneficial to add penalty training next time.

   

 

Summary:  Setting the mentality right is important. Dare to use attacking mentality/version even away vs good oposition when a goal is needed (link below). Be conservative and start with positive or even balanced mentality against good opposition, switch mentality dependant of how the match goes. Patience when controlling matches will often be rewarded.

Scoring away vs Bayern Munchen

Edited January 2 by cmonreds

[cmonreds]

• Played to early December the 3rd season. Tactic is decent nothing more. Players developed and the team are sufficiently good enough for the tactic to bring results well and team cohesion is at the highest level. Still, Rennes were lucky that France got the coeffiecent for the Champions League and we qualifed by being placed 5th in the League the 2nd season. The tactic achieved 64 % possession which is quite good, xG also decent nothing more but the xGA increased too much, this might be due to the attacking version being the best and most often used.
• The problem is that there is to much vertical space behind the the three lines in the 2-3-5 shape. To decrease the distance between the lines a WW shape in the 2-3-5 is applied, by changing the Mezzala's to CM's (Get further forward/Move into channelse) and changing the CF to DLF again. Also the Mezzala's positioning pushes the IW's slightly wider and decreases compactness. 
• Against teams playing 442, 3421(AM) and 424 the Mezzala's and the CF were to high up the pitch to contribute to the build-up. By changing the roles to CM's and DLF there are more heads and passing options in the build-ups and the team has in general a better defensive balance and creates midfield overloads.
• This is also more in line with the  initial thoughts when creating the tactic, el Rondo and compactness benefiting counter pressure, pressing and short passing. This change has increased performance significantly. Very good defence, decent possession and creating good amount of chances.

Left: Avg. positions in possession with Mezzala's and CF. Right: Avg. positionos with CM's and DLF.

 

The tactic has three versions with only slight differences between them and change of mentality. A cautious (balanced mentality), a controlling (positive mentality) and a dominating (attacking mentality version). They fit the naming in how they work. The cautious version shuts the shop and prevents chances against, acceptable if any loss to possession. The controlling version achieves possession low xGA and good xG and is the starting version of the tactic. Often this is played with though the whole match if there is no need to change. The dominant version is good at creating chances when needed and has fulfilled its purpose and given goals when it has been used.

 

The save game was saved at 5th og August 2023 after pre-season where all things that needs to be arranged is arranged and staff and everything else is taken care of (takes some time). The save game was restarted with the updated tactic. Results so far:

League matches

 

Table

Out of possession data/stats

xGA

In possession stats

Also training of the youths/reserves will be tested in regard to training individual roles and additional training focus or only position and additional training focus. The youth/reserve schedules will be tweaked slightly by removing match practice sessions and adding general sessions. Development will be compared for the youth players at the club from the start of the save at the end of the 2nd season. 

Will update thread after 1st season and 2nd season. Will use the first posts of the thread when finished. This might take some time..

Edited January 3 by cmonreds

[cmonreds]

I am starting to update the first post(s) of the thread, the 2nd season is finished in two matches. OI's have been added and used for the whole 2nd season.

Edited January 5 by cmonreds

[jc577]

3 hours ago, cmonreds said:

 

I am starting to update the first post(s) of the thread, the 2nd season is finished in two matches. OI's have been added and used for the whole 2nd season.

 

Fantastic read mate. Haven’t been as active on here over the holidays but caught up today and you’ve been busy! So much to digest/think about… got me wanting to move away from my 442 to a 433 haha. Great work. 

[cmonreds]

13 minutes ago, jc577 said:

Fantastic read mate. Haven’t been as active on here over the holidays but caught up today and you’ve been busy! So much to digest/think about… got me wanting to move away from my 442 to a 433 haha. Great work. 

Thanks,

Your thoughts might produce something better than what I ended up with. The 433 has its benefits, so has the 442. Try to apply some of the thinking to your preferred formation. A 442 can be decent for a 2-2 rest defence as well as general a well balanced formation for pressing. Step up more compacts the distance between defence and midfield and that could work very well. Also good for trapping outside with two central attackers pressing central and the opposition player trapped outside (often a AML/AMR or ML/MR)  have to deal with your ML/MR or AML/AMR (424) and the fullbacks/wingbacks. The 442 is nice for reducing space between DL/DR and AML/AMR as in the 433.  I am fascinated by Emery and Aston Villa this year. Playing a compact 442, principles from this thread can be applied to your 442. Good luck 

[Mutumba]

Ive been trying your different versions in a couple of different saves and honestly, I think one of your earlier ones with CWBs is the best one for me. 

 

Anyways, great reading and looking forward to see more updates

[cmonreds]

19 hours ago, Mutumba said:

Ive been trying your different versions in a couple of different saves and honestly, I think one of your earlier ones with CWBs is the best one for me. 

 

Anyways, great reading and looking forward to see more updates

The latest tactic (2-3) is demanding of the players. With Rennes the 1st eleven performs with the tactic whilst the 2nd eleven playing in the cups are struggling. The tactic is probably for the teams with better players that suits the tactic.

[cmonreds]

In the 3rd season trying to dominate more matches also away and playing that version with attacking mentality, the effect on the defensive line can be seen on the image below. DL higher compared to earlier in the thread playing more often with positive and balanced mentality.

The high and compact block and pressing is very effective out of possession as well as in possession:

Out of possession stats:

xGA

In possession stats:

Dominating more matches and average possession has increased, high pass completion as well

4th ranked on xG underperforming with - 4.1

Training results for youngsters not older than 20 and being part of the 1st team squad

2,5 seasons

1,5 seasons (regens)

 

Edited January 6 by cmonreds

[HurkaDurk69]

49 minutes ago, cmonreds said:

In the 3rd season trying to dominate more matches also away and playing that version with attacking mentality, the effect on the defensive line can be seen on the image below. DL higher compared to earlier in the thread playing more often with positive and balanced mentality.

The high and compact block and pressing is very effective out of possession as well as in possession:

Out of possession stats:

xGA

In possession stats:

Dominating more matches and average possession has increased, high pass completion as well

4th ranked on xG underperforming with - 4.1

Training results for youngsters not older than 20 and being part of the 1st team squad

2,5 seasons

1,5 seasons (regens)

 

Just need to stop leaking in goals from set pieces haha.

 

Looks really good, does the team play the way you want?

[yonko]

@cmonreds

Have you tried a variation of the tactic using False9 instead of DLF or CF? The player in that role should be dropping deeper than DLF, interacting with the CMs, creating more space for them and the IWs. 

[cmonreds]

15 hours ago, HurkaDurk69 said:

Just need to stop leaking in goals from set pieces haha.

We did do that 

15 hours ago, HurkaDurk69 said:

Looks really good, does the team play the way you want?

Yeah, I am happy with how the team plays. Solid defence and the team is challenging to play against, nice short and quick passing which achieves possession whilst also creating chances. All this is done how I like football to be played. The tactic with the current players is often threatening the space behind the opposition defenders, a major benefit of using a DLF is that it can create this space as he doesn't push them back like a AF can do.

Edited January 7 by cmonreds

[cmonreds]

9 hours ago, yonko said:

@cmonreds

Have you tried a variation of the tactic using False9 instead of DLF or CF? The player in that role should be dropping deeper than DLF, interacting with the CMs, creating more space for them and the IWs. 

A striker dropping deeper is preferable and currently using the DLF. The F9 is always interesting  The star ratings are a bit of and Kalimuendo has 1,5 star for the role but attributes wise he ticks all the boxes.  In FM23 the strikers underperformed in the F9 role with low stars. That is the main reason why the F9 has not been used.

Edited January 7 by cmonreds

[cmonreds]

Just finished the 3rd season. First of all, PSG are invincible so far in this save also winning the FIFA Club World Cup in 2025. Rennes also lost to them in the French Cup the 2nd and 3rd season. It is a huge challenge to overcome PSG and win the Ligue 1.

 

In the 3rd season Rennes has improved/progressed by gaining 3 more points, scoring 3 more goals and conceding 3 goal less. Still this wasn't enough:

We had a good run and this is the results of the league campaign:

Matches against PSG are often evenly mathced but they are difficult to win against away. Left image below away in the league PSG won 1-0, right image at home in the league which Rennes won 2-1.

  

At home in the cup vs PSG with the 2nd best eleven lost on penalties.

Often playing attacking led to more injuries with Head of Sports Science indicating that we had a 7% percent lower injuries than expected. This is the lowest acchieved with Rennes for the last three versions of FM. Probably when leading with two goals a switch to control version with positive mentality slightly reduces intensity and can decrease injuries. No fatigue during the season though. Cautious version with balanced mentality extremely selldom used in the 3rd season.

Stats 3rd season

Possession numbers same as 2nd season and again top ranked teams on possession in the playable leagues in the save, Rennes has the highest possession. No other team in these leagues achieved above 60%. In Ligue 1 the other top perfomers for possession increased their avg. possession.

Increase in xG with above 2.0. For Ligue 1 xG stats are similiar as the previous season (2nd).

Increase in final 3rd passes with 5 per game. Slight decrease for other top performers for the stat.

Chances created decreased with 13 for the whole season. This pattern present for other performing teams as well, fewer chances created in Ligue 1.

xGA - improved with a decrease in expected goals against at 6.8 for the whole season, other top performing teams for the stat around the same as the 2nd season.

Two more final 3rd passes against per game, increased by two from previous season. The stats the same as last season for other top performers.

For the team to progress/improve further the DM and the rigth IWB positions are the weakest in the squad. There is around 15 millon GBP in transfer funds that can be used to improve the squad in the short term (transfer funds likely to be increased during the 4th season). In the medium/longer term there are some real promising youngsters developing and this is a longer term solution. The short term solution is buying player(s) that can improve the team for the next season.

Improvement of the DM position with the existing players

Most used player in the position Santamaria has a good personality and is a highly influential player in the squad. This benefits the squad and the younger players. He will stay at the club but as a back-up/rotation player for the position. He has decent attributes for the role and is an able passer, still composure could be better as well as better quickness.

Rieder is playing in the Central Midfielder role as rotation player, his abilitiy led to him demanding more playing time as a regular starter. Other CM's are preferred as being better finishers/creators. He could still develope slightly and redistribution of attributes  in training could lead to him being a good defensive midfielder, In some sense this is similiar to Mac Allister in the DM role for Liverpool this year. A ballplayer in the role instead of a ballwinner. As I see it Rieder is slightly quicker/better movement, better composure/concentration/decisions/vision to play against/through opposition press. Defensively and strength wise he is weaker than Santamaria. Both are right footed and where Santamaria has a weak left foot Rieder is reasonable with the left, this is also a sligth advantage.

The assistant managers summary/report, Fieder the intelligent and technical player and Santamaria as the more athletic player of these two:

Summary of attributes  

Improvement of the rigth IWB position

The first pick is Assignon being 2 stars for the role with support duty. Not excelling in attributes but having a decent average. Decent quickness, anticipation, bravery and teamwork but lacking in the required passing/ballcontroll/movement/mental stats to be a real good right IWB.

Still performance is decently good and during matches he plays quite well and are not being a weakness to the team.

  

The back-up player for the position is at the same level as Assignon, a better defensively and physical player, albeit slower, but lesser for technical and mental attributes. There are 4-5 reserve/youth team players that can be retrained from DC/DM/MC positions and be decent/good players in 2-3 years. In the short term term there is no solutions for retraining without weakening other positions. The transfer funds will be used on this position if an affordable player that improves the position is available. If no such players are available, and since Rieder becoming a defensive midfielder a young player designated to be a defensive midfielder will be retrained and played in the rigth IWB role. Retraining and focusing on improving off the ball and composure this player can excel in the role.

If

Edited January 7 by cmonreds

[yonko]

3 hours ago, cmonreds said:

A striker dropping deeper is preferable and currently using the DLF. The F9 is always interesting  The star ratings are a bit of and Kalimuendo has 1,5 star for the role but attributes wise he ticks all the boxes.  In FM23 the strikers underperformed in the F9 role with low stars. That is the main reason why the F9 has not been used.

Yeah his attributes look fine for False9 role. Have you tried it to see how it works in FM24? What do you mean by the False9 underperformed in FM23? How did it underperform?

I've been testing the role in my Barca save (2nd season) with Roam From Position PI. Ansu Fati plays well in that role - scores and gets good ratings. Vitor Roque gets low ratings and doesn't score. I just bought Pafundi in January 2025 transfer window and he plays the role well too. Fati and Roque both lack a little bit in Passing and Vision (both 13s), while Pafundi lacks in Anticipation, Composure and Decisions (12-13). But that's ok because I don't want the role to play that many through passes. I have AP-S and DLP-S as CMs for that. Also, IW-S at AMR to play progressive passes behind the defense. 

I find the F9 role by dropping deeper offers better option for ball circulation and passing combinations. Then when the ball goes wide to the AMR (IW-S), AML (IF-S) or DR/L (WB-S), the F9 darts into the penalty box to score cutbacks and squared passes. Sometimes I also see passes from wide areas behind the defense for the F9 to run into.

[cmonreds]

1 hour ago, yonko said:

Yeah his attributes look fine for False9 role. Have you tried it to see how it works in FM24? What do you mean by the False9 underperformed in FM23? How did it underperform?

Not the role in general that underperfomed, but the strikers I have been playing with in that role. They had low suitability (stars) even though the attributes were decent/good enough, the match ratings, assists and goals were not good as well as they played poorly when playing matches. Normally the stars are just informative but for the F9 this is my experience. I would prefer F9 before DLF. I might give it a try to check it out.

I've been testing the role in my Barca save (2nd season) with Roam From Position PI. Ansu Fati plays well in that role - scores and gets good ratings. Vitor Roque gets low ratings and doesn't score. I just bought Pafundi in January 2025 transfer window and he plays the role well too. Fati and Roque both lack a little bit in Passing and Vision (both 13s), while Pafundi lacks in Anticipation, Composure and Decisions (12-13). But that's ok because I don't want the role to play that many through passes. I have AP-S and DLP-S as CMs for that. Also, IW-S at AMR to play progressive passes behind the defense. 

You are sticking to the classic Barcelona under Pep tactics  What are your build-up /rest defence like? Do you change dependant of the opposition strikers ?

I find the F9 role by dropping deeper offers better option for ball circulation and passing combinations. Then when the ball goes wide to the AMR (IW-S), AML (IF-S) or DR/L (WB-S), the F9 darts into the penalty box to score cutbacks and squared passes. Sometimes I also see passes from wide areas behind the defense for the F9 to run into.

Yup, that is the benefit of the F9 role and what I like as well. Do you notice that the F9 moves more into the space in front of the DLP ? Also which foot is Fati/your F9's stongest foot? Messi started as inverted winger/forward on the left, when moved central as a F9 some of the same space was available/used as Xavi as the right MC sat deeper than Iniesta.

Speaking of the man, my save just got a little bit harder/more challenging 

Edited January 7 by cmonreds

[ibrahim.akbyk]

On 27.12.2023 at 20:13, cmonreds said:

Does anyone have any experiences on the below set-ups? and from which opposition formations/tactical styles/match scenarios are the experiences?

Hi there. Really good work here. Thank for enjoyable read. I tend to use 3-2 and 2-3 set-ups depending to opposition and/or my central forward. 
If opposition use 3 midfielder, I generally use 3-2 set-up. With my other 2 midfielder, ı gain numeraical advantages 3v4 in this scenario. 

On the other hand when oppositons use 4 midfielder, I need 5 midfielder for numerical advantage. Then I use 2-3 for this scenario unless they have 2 forward player. If theh use 2 forward, Then I use 3-2 setup and I tend to use support forward duty for numarical advantage on the middle of the pitch. Either way, I am lookin for taking midfield control with 4man against 3 or 5man against 4. 
Keep it up, this is a wonderful thread. 

[cmonreds]

1 hour ago, ibrahim.akbyk said:

Hi there. Really good work here. Thank for enjoyable read. I tend to use 3-2 and 2-3 set-ups depending to opposition and/or my central forward. 
If opposition use 3 midfielder, I generally use 3-2 set-up. With my other 2 midfielder, ı gain numeraical advantages 3v4 in this scenario. 

On the other hand when oppositons use 4 midfielder, I need 5 midfielder for numerical advantage. Then I use 2-3 for this scenario unless they have 2 forward player. If theh use 2 forward, Then I use 3-2 setup and I tend to use support forward duty for numarical advantage on the middle of the pitch. Either way, I am lookin for taking midfield control with 4man against 3 or 5man against 4. 
Keep it up, this is a wonderful thread. 

Thanks 

We follow the same line of thought in regard to midfield overloads/numerical superiority. The starting point was to use both the 2-3 and 3-2 for the same reasons you mention. Pondered about and tested the central defenders with stay wider in the 2-3 against two striker formations as well as the narrow 3421 with two AM's. Found out that it was't neccessary to use the instruction. If the players are decent enough with and passing the ball as well as movement a 2-3 should work. Also a SK gives support if the DC's needs a passing outlet when pressured.

The following are examples from matches in the save. Rennes in red avg. position in possession before subs. Opposition in white avg. position out of possession before subs.

Against the 3421 (popular formation in my save) the 2-3 has numerical advantage in both the 1st and 2nd line of the rest defence.

And against formations with two strikers the DC's will naturally play a little wider without being instructed to do so.

Edited January 7 by cmonreds

[cmonreds]

Had a break from FM and just started the 4th season. No transfers in due to available players strenghtening the team are too expensive for Rennes 20 million GBP transfer budget and wage structure (range 14k to 85k p/week used for current players). Received several high bids for players but they were rejected or asked for higher bids. This is mainly due to the team now being at the maximum levels for being unified/builded relationships and cohesion, and wants to keep this at current levels.

 

  

With the current playing squad for the coming season there is less room for drastic development for the players in the 1st eleven (the stars will change/increase when amount of matches and age increases for the youngest players).

Some players have reached the age where they might decline, Bourigeaud at the age of 32 has declined sligthly and is replaced in the 1st eleven by D. Doue and Santamaria will reach the age of 32 this season. So far played with the el Rondo tactics and have come close to winning the league the 2nd and 3rd season. PSG have employed Guardiola and are constantly improving their squad through transfers. For the club to progress/improve to compete with PSG for the league with the current players/squad improving tactics might be the only way to get an edge over them. This discussion will also review/summarize the tactical discussion from this thread. Further discussion in this post will follow as shown below:

All variations/versions of the tactic has the same overall idea of high pressing, quick short passing and dominating the midfield/centre of the pitch.

• Classic 433 w/CWB's maintaining widht - 2-1/2-1-2 RD with CM's as controllers (The original tactic)

Test match won 1-0. For this tactic the IW's are sitting narrower giving the benefit of three central attacking players (DLF being the 3rd), these three players are normally the best finishers. The CWB's are providing width and all five attacking channels (centre/half-spaces/flanks) are effectively used. The CM's instructions (only roaming) are making them act/play more like controllers in midfield. This is neccessary due to the 2-1 RD structure and in practice the RD structure being more like a 2-1-2.

  

The positional transitions between in/out of possession is quick and doesn't demand players that are very good at positioning/movement to work well.

 

 

• el Rondo 433 w/IWB's - 2-3 RD with CM's more attacking (The current tactic)

Test match draw 1-1. In this tactic width is in theory sacrificed with no players designated to maintain width. The IW's har neither stay wider/sit narrower as PI. The CWB's are changed to IWB's and creating the 2-3 RD. The CM's role are changed by giving the PI to get further forward and move into channels, as well as roaming to create the Mezzala light role. This shape can be described as a 2-3-2-3 shape.

Compared to the classic/original version the main benefit is inreased control of the centre of the pitch and the midfield area. This leads to the tactic well suited to prevent central counter-attacks when loosing the ball. Stats wise possession increases and the team runs considerable less as well as a decrease in high intensity sprints. This is beneficial in the long-term (season) as it puts less strain on the players. Wide play is still present and the number of crosses are the same (number can be influenced by corners taken short), the main difference being that the IWB and CM together with the IW on the respective side to a larger extent shares the crossing/duty of going wide. The increase in final 3rd passes can be down to not being able to penetrate the opposition when they are staying compact.

 vs classic 

The positional transitions are more demanding and players have longer distance to move, especially the IWB's and they need to be good at positioning and movement.

 

 

• el Rondo 433 w/IWB's - IW's stay wider (evolution)

Test match won 3-0. The only change being the IW's staying wider. This requires IW's that are able to operate more often on their own and they need to be good in 1 vs 1 situations. Stats wise compared to el Rondo (IW's not staying wider) there are fewer shots, decrease in xG and long shots. This could be down to randomness. Passes in attack are more accurate and this can be caused by stretching the opponent. Increased width leads more distances covered by the players. Decrease in final 3rd passes could be down to better penetration. Two of the three goals were due to IW's staying wider.

 vs el Rondo

For positional transitions this version leads to the players covering the biggest distances so far.

 

• el Rondo 433 w/IWB's - IW's stay wider and changing CM's to Mezzala's (evolution)

Test match won 2-0. This shape is more of a 2-3-5 shape and similiar to modern tactics. Huge increase in chance creation and xG and long shots as well (randomness can influence this). Highest possession, more progressive passes and increase in final 3rd passing. In light of the increased xG this is likely due to more penetrating final 3rd passing. The shape is less compact and the opposition countered and had one decent goal scoring chance as well. The reduced OPPDA is due to more players being positioned higher up the pitch (Mezzala's).

 vs CM's

For positional transitions this version is more demanding of the players abilities for positioning/movement. High intensity sprints/distance covered the same.

 

The passing map shows good interplay between the IW's, IWB's and the Mezzala's. The IWB's can be given PI to get further forward and the DM PI to hold position if more players are needed up front (attacking/dominate version).

• Modern 433 - 2-3 RD with Mezzala's and wingers (evolution)

Test match won 2-1. The wingers have cut inside as PI. The right winger is right footed, the left winger is also right footed. This tactic has the biggest decrease in tactical familiarity for roles and this can influence the testing. Might be due to randomness, still xG increases with wingers and possession decreases. Increase in crossing with wingers. More progressive and final 3rd passes, together with the increased xG this is likely chance creation due to stretching the opposition defence and utilizing the whole width of the pitch. The higher OPPDA might be caused by less compactness up front. This version is less compact and in theory this could lead to the opposition creating more chances against own team. This is reflected in the stats, stats can be influenced in the low tactical familiarity for the Mezzala's and especially the wingers.

 vs IW's  

For positional transitions this version has the biggest distance to be covered. This version is more demanding of the players and they should have good positioning/movement abilities. Major benefit is the wingers wide play that can lead to penetration into the box from a 180 degree angle. Increased compactness effectively reduces this angle.

  

 

• Changing the RD structure and/or playing style (revolution)

This is a possibility as well. Still the current 2-3 RD structure works well and evolution is preferred instead of revolutionary changes.

Summary:

Dependant of the ability of the team different versions of the tactic can be used. For good teams width should be utilized and for medium/poor teams compactness might be the best option. The emphasize of width/compactness can also differ in relation to own teams ability vs the opposition's ability, as well as venue (home/away). For Rennes in the current save game the increase of width, atleast in the attacking dominate version of the tactic might be required. At home most teams are sitting back and being very defensive. This has led to the team already loosing five points at home with the current tactic not utilizing width to break them down. The test match in this post is against Reims which was lost 0-1 in the save game (retest with same tactic for this post ended in a draw 1-1 and the only match not won). Making this tactical change/evolution/progress early might be crucial to finally win the league.

 

Edited January 14 by cmonreds

[cmonreds]

4th season finished with the el Rondo tactic(s). One version of the tactic where the IW's were staying wider, the IWB's instructed to get forward and the DM to hold position was created. This version was tested a few times when Rennes needed a goal in the late stages of a match. It didn't produce the goals and was not used again after a few tests.

Once again 2nd in the league behind PSG. Record number of goals for Rennes, also with an increase in conceded goals compared to the last two seasons. The distance to PSG in points increased this season.

Shared 1st place for possession and pass completion.

xG - overperforming as PSG have done for all seasons

Out of possession

xGA - even with conceded goals

1st trophy won - knocked out PSG in the quarter finals

 

 

vs PSG in the league

 

PSG winning the CL three times in a row

Tactical theory/discussion

• One possible change is to change the IWB's to ordinary FB's staying narrower. The FB role can be sought to replicate the IWB role as much as possible by assigning PI's so they behave similiar to the IWB's. A sure thing effect of changing to fullback roles are increased width in the 2nd line of the RD. This might not be a bad thing for how the tactic works as long as the teams shape in overall keeps the compact shape.
• The use of FB's can have an effect on the DC's with Libero (defend) roles positioning.
• Keeping all other instructions the same except mentioned below the following changes has the following effects:

Left: el Rondo w/IWB's and Libero's Right: LIbero's, fullbacks (no forward runs, cross rarely and sit narrower)

 

The left image (el Rondo with IWB's) allows for DC's assigned the roles of Libero's. Three central players in front of them (IWB's and DM) leads to the Libero's positioning themselves as central defenders and not venturing forward. When changing to fullbacks roles the Libero's will use the space and move further up. The fullbacks leads to the IW's positioning themselves more narrow/central. The team positioned higher up the pitch can be due to randomness in the match or a result of the "new" shape. I look for how the players/roles position themselves in relation to each other at this stage of testing. The overall team shape is vertically more compact and slightly (not much) decreased lateral compactness. Also the 2-3 RD is more like a 4-1 shape.

• What are the effects of assigning forward runs for the fullbacks ? Compared to the used el Rondo tactic this is an increase in the number of forward runs for the tactic. Even with a support role it is a slight increase in risk.

Left image: No forward runs for fullbacks (right image above) Right image: Forward runs for fullbacks

 

When fullbacks are assigned forward runs their average positioning in possession is slightly higher compared to the Libero's. There is tendency that the Libero's  position themselves slightly more conservative in relation to the DM position. The fullbacks with PI hold position is not tested as this does not replicate the IWB roles used in the tactic.

•  What are the effects of changing the DC's role to central defenders instead of Libero's?

Left image: Libero's and fullbacks forward runs Right image: CD's w/FB's forward runs

 

Decreased vertical compactness (more like el Rondo current version) and the 2-3 RD is re-established. Using Libero's and creating the very vertical compact shape and 4-1 rest defence can increase counter pressure due to compactness. The Libero's positioned higher than central defenders can make the team much more vulnerable to balls played behind the defensive line, if the counter pressure fails.

Preliminary Conclusions:

• Using both fullback and libero roles increases compactness and the shape of the rest defence towards a 4-1.
• All images: The three central midfield, no effect or change needed.
• The front three (all instructions staying the same), the IW's are naturally positioning themselves more narrow/central due to the fullbacks pushing them inwards.

[coach vahid]

Great job.

Just one thing about testing tactic. From my experience you can play the same game again and again, you will find each time, differents positions, differents stats and differents results. I know that you know...

[cmonreds]

17 hours ago, coach vahid said:

Great job.

Just one thing about testing tactic. From my experience you can play the same game again and again, you will find each time, differents positions, differents stats and differents results. I know that you know...

It is true and I try to be conscious about it, to exclude randomness a very high number of test results are neccessary and this requires time I do not have. Instead the most obvious effects of randomness is excluded and effects where assumptions/theory and results are concurrent is emphasized.

Regarding testing/positioning below is two examples of how it can differ and what is emphasized. Similiar 2-3 set-up and positioning as with the 433 formation can be acchieved with a 3421 Wide formation.

Left image: el Rondo Dominate w/3421 formation Rigth image: el Rondo Dominate w/433 formation

 

Left image: 3421 1st test Middle image: 3421 2nd test Right image: 433

  

Assumptions/theory of using a 3421 formation to replicate the positioning is that the IWB's would be positioned a little higher (due to starting positions) and the Libero acting as the DM would be positioned a little lower. This is concurrent with the results of testing and can be emphasized. As with the differences between the tests of the 3421 they can not be emphasized too much for just two tests. There are variations between the width of IW's and how far up the pitch the whole team is positioned for the two tests. These are due to randomness in the match and are not put weight on/considered.  Also the right IWB (no. 5) is positioned higher than the left IWB (no. 2), this is due to another set of variables aka your opponents tactics. As with research/testing in real life, where variables also are in abundance, things needs to be simplified and research/testing concentrated around a limited number of variables.

Edited January 21 by cmonreds

[HanziZoloman]

@cmonreds I am a bit stuck with my very fluid system. I‘ve had a poacher working upfront with W(S) but after a strong run with a last winning game 5:0 it’s all shut down and I am losing game after game. 
How do you setup with Wingers?

[cmonreds]

On 28/01/2024 at 18:51, HanziZoloman said:

@cmonreds I am a bit stuck with my very fluid system. I‘ve had a poacher working upfront with W(S) but after a strong run with a last winning game 5:0 it’s all shut down and I am losing game after game. 
How do you setup with Wingers?

Personally I wouldn't use a poacher up front in a very fluid tactical system. The poacher to my understanding is too one dimensional and focusing on converting chances. Other striker roles as DLF, CF and possible AF are better for teamplay and both creating and finishing chances. My tactics have only utilized IW's for the longer term. If wingers are used they needs to be either exceptional 1 vs 1 (for my tactical structure) or needs support from other players (mezzala, sidebacks in defence). Both the latter and using wingers sacrifices lateral compactness compared to my current tactic.

[iker3085]

Just downloaded your 2-3 tactics and training schedules, which schedule do you use for your U23/II/B-Team? Simply the youth ones?

Also for scouting, which attributes are you looking for mostly to find players that fit the tactic?

[cmonreds]

18 hours ago, iker3085 said:

Just downloaded your 2-3 tactics and training schedules, which schedule do you use for your U23/II/B-Team? Simply the youth ones?

Also for scouting, which attributes are you looking for mostly to find players that fit the tactic?

Reserve team training:

• 1st method: Use youth training schedules and no role training. + Players in the reserves will continue to develope broadly as generalists - Players are not specialized attributes wise/tactical familiarity for the roles of the 1st team tactic(s)

 

• 2nd method: Use youth training schedules with role training. ? Are training sessions with Match Practice needed for focusing on role training

 

• 3rd method: Use 1st team training schedules with role training. + and - the opposite of the 1st method of training the reserves.

 

Scouting (also training focus):

All positions/roles in the tactic:

• 1st priority: Technique, first touch and passing are always most important.
• 2nd priority: Mental attributes for passing (vision)/press resistance (composure)

Players playing in the areas most congested by opposition players needs the best abilities for the above attributes (DLF, CM's).

All positions except the Central defenders:

• Ability to move/position themselves in possession (off the ball, anticipation)

The most offensive players (DLF, IW's, CM's) needs slightly higher ability for this compared to the DM and IWB's.

If the club can buy/train players with all the neccessary attributes for pressing as well as teamwork is after sought. Defensive players (CD's, DM, IWB's) should have good defensive attributes as well.

Always try to get the best Sweeper Keeper possible for the club.

[Catenaccio_In_FM23]

I just thought I’d feedback on this thread as I found the process you went through a very interesting read - great job cmonreds, I wish I had the time and patience to develop tactics in this manner.  I was also interested in testing whether such a technically demanding tactic could be handled by lower quality players.

I’ve finished the first season with Sheffield Wednesday 10th in the Championship having been predicted to finish 21st by the media at the start of the season (although the Board wanted mid-table).

Team cohesion would appear to be all important - although this is something that I’ve found to be common in implementing tactics successfully across FM.  It definitely appears that more penalties are conceded as well as goals from set pieces when it is low and even when not playing well you can just about scrape through - pretty much the story of the season!  Whilst I was able to get it to good - I never got it to a state where it was close to maxing out - making it to about half a green bar.  There was a drop through January where I bought in 4 players and let 2 U-21 players go and also when I forgot to programme the training schedules for a couple of weeks on the bounce - this also seaming to have an effect, albeit to a lesser extent.

In terms of performances it’s been pretty depressing - just over a goal a game (50 from a total of 262 shots in the season (100 fewer than the 23rd ranked side), but conceding only a goal a game (46 and ranking 4th in the shots against stats).  The Board are very disappointed with their desire for me to play attacking football.  The supporters likewise and who on top of this expected, but were disappointed in my ability to, play entertaining football.

We have however, through dominating possession (58% ranked 4th), been able to grind out wins (17) and draws (13) on a relatively frequent basis.  At the turn of the year we were in with a chance of a play off place and maybe could have sustained that with more careful management of moral - praising conduct and training and criticising form were sporadic once club atmosphere had improved and stabilised around very good.

None of the players really stood-out - perhaps Poveda, but from his coach report he is a dark red inconsistent performer and he lived up to that.  Bakinson’s assists all came in the last ten games of the season.  The Liberos had the highest average ratings - mainly due to having 95%+ pass completions and all of them having 85%+ headers won.  I did rotate a lot - trying not to play anyone whose fatigue was rated as Low - maybe this affected performance/cohesion?

I don’t necessarily think it was always an attribute issue - there was a good enough smattering of technical ability throughout the squad.  It appeared as though player preferences were holding a number of players back in a number of circumstances…

• GK and Libero’s were fine and we kept 11 clean sheets - probably should have rated higher - not sure why they didn’t?
• IWBs were a struggle. Both Pol Valentin and James are conventional wing backs and objected to being played as IWBs on their natural flanks - impacting on their moral.  By the end of November I’d settled for Palmer and Brennan to cover the left - being at least accomplished in that position rather than retrain from no familiarity (James also Injured by this point).  In January, Gordon was brought in on loan from Bristol Rovers and performed acceptably, as did his back-up Jacobs from Hull, as left footers playing on the right hand side.  7 assists came from these four players - I should probably be expecting more? 
  • I did notice in implementing the opposition instructions that when the AI manager plays IWBs he keeps them on their natural flanks.  Maybe you just need to find those that are rubbish at crossing and therefore content to be a IWB on their natural side?
• DM was rotated between Bernard, Palmer (pre IWB conversion) and Bannan and performances were pretty consistent/acceptable) whoever played there - none of them provided an assist from this position though.
• CMs didn’t perform - there appearing to be a constant fight between player traits conflicting with team and player instructions.  Bannon, probably our most technical player, didn’t perform at CM - most likely because his traits include comes deep to get the ball and tries long range passes.  Volks has takes long shots and took long shots 1.00/90 when his total shots/90 was only 1.21.  Windass was probably the best of the established players but kicked up a fuss when played anywhere that wasn’t his favoured AM.  I was left to recall Bakinson from loan and introduce Shipston from the U-21’s who has 14 first touch and 15 flair and performed okay - one for the future at least.
  • Speaking of flair, it would appear from the player selection feedback screen that flair has a greater impact on spotting a pass and vision governs how suitable a player is to roam from position.  I had always assumed the other way round - anyone else?
• It was a similar situation with the IW’s - trying and failing to get a tune out of Poveda, Johnson (16 Cro), Musaba (14+ acc, agi, dri), Delgado, Gassama (13+ acc, agi, dri) and Wilks (14 acc, agi, pac) but pretty much to no avail.  Delgado possibly the most complete and one I expected most from Dri, Cro, Tec, Fla, Acc, Agi, Pac all 13+ - maybe the Chilean is struggling to settle in the UK - or is it that they need the possession based attributes (rather than traditional IW ones) to find the men in space when they cut back inside?
  • On top of that I can’t decide whether its better to have the IW play on their natural side, play them on the side where their player trait says they prefer to cut in from, or use their crossing attribute as a guide - play on their natural side if they can cross well?
• Finding a DLF was difficult - Smith and Gregory are aging TM whose legs are going/have gone.  Cadamatri has appalling decision making and Windass, like at CM, does a good job but gets upset about doing it.  I eventually settled for converting winger Musaba (3 goals in 8 games), but this was only in March having tried pretty much everyone else.

Elsewhere with the tactic, the defensive corner routine has not worked for us - conceding 13 goals, 26% of all the gaols we conceded.  There were a further 3 goals from IDFKs too, but happily none from DFKs.  Tweaks here when I noticed this as a potential issue pre-Christmas might have meant a push for the playoff, however I wanted to be true to the tactical ethos.

I took a slightly different approach to player development - moving all U-21 & U-18s to the first team - so as to reduce costs on staff and be able to expose players to mentoring at the expense of the development schedules.  Game time was ensured for those considered to have the most potential by making them available to the appropriate age group teams.  There has been development in many of these players and those with five star potential Fusire, Cadamarteri, Charles and Gassama appear to have improved at a greater rate than many.  However, the greatest development was seen in Brennan (aged 24) whilst retraining him as a IWB on the left - this would appear to support Zealand’s theory about the potential ability star rating not being the greatest predictor of potential (Brennan being 2.5 star ability with 3 star potential) - albeit he doesn’t appear to have a massively professional personality either (level headed and balanced) to fully support why he’s developed so much?

I plan to continue with this approach for another season - which will be one where I will be pretty much starting from scratch with team cohesion as most of the big earners with conflicting player traits and suspect personalities are out of contract.  With the club massively in debt the calibre of player that comes in might not be as good as what is being let go, but hopefully players with a good base of possessional attributes who are vaguely professional and have only traits complementary to the tactic (or none at all) may be the solution to the issues above.  I hope my scouts have been busy having left all that to my chief scout.  Changing the defensive corner routine at this level may also go some way to improving things.

[coach vahid]

Il y a 5 heures, Catenaccio_In_FM23 a dit :

I just thought I’d feedback on this thread as I found the process you went through a very interesting read - great job cmonreds, I wish I had the time and patience to develop tactics in this manner.  I was also interested in testing whether such a technically demanding tactic could be handled by lower quality players.

I’ve finished the first season with Sheffield Wednesday 10th in the Championship having been predicted to finish 21st by the media at the start of the season (although the Board wanted mid-table).

Team cohesion would appear to be all important - although this is something that I’ve found to be common in implementing tactics successfully across FM.  It definitely appears that more penalties are conceded as well as goals from set pieces when it is low and even when not playing well you can just about scrape through - pretty much the story of the season!  Whilst I was able to get it to good - I never got it to a state where it was close to maxing out - making it to about half a green bar.  There was a drop through January where I bought in 4 players and let 2 U-21 players go and also when I forgot to programme the training schedules for a couple of weeks on the bounce - this also seaming to have an effect, albeit to a lesser extent.

In terms of performances it’s been pretty depressing - just over a goal a game (50 from a total of 262 shots in the season (100 fewer than the 23rd ranked side), but conceding only a goal a game (46 and ranking 4th in the shots against stats).  The Board are very disappointed with their desire for me to play attacking football.  The supporters likewise and who on top of this expected, but were disappointed in my ability to, play entertaining football.

We have however, through dominating possession (58% ranked 4th), been able to grind out wins (17) and draws (13) on a relatively frequent basis.  At the turn of the year we were in with a chance of a play off place and maybe could have sustained that with more careful management of moral - praising conduct and training and criticising form were sporadic once club atmosphere had improved and stabilised around very good.

None of the players really stood-out - perhaps Poveda, but from his coach report he is a dark red inconsistent performer and he lived up to that.  Bakinson’s assists all came in the last ten games of the season.  The Liberos had the highest average ratings - mainly due to having 95%+ pass completions and all of them having 85%+ headers won.  I did rotate a lot - trying not to play anyone whose fatigue was rated as Low - maybe this affected performance/cohesion?

I don’t necessarily think it was always an attribute issue - there was a good enough smattering of technical ability throughout the squad.  It appeared as though player preferences were holding a number of players back in a number of circumstances…

• GK and Libero’s were fine and we kept 11 clean sheets - probably should have rated higher - not sure why they didn’t?
• IWBs were a struggle. Both Pol Valentin and James are conventional wing backs and objected to being played as IWBs on their natural flanks - impacting on their moral.  By the end of November I’d settled for Palmer and Brennan to cover the left - being at least accomplished in that position rather than retrain from no familiarity (James also Injured by this point).  In January, Gordon was brought in on loan from Bristol Rovers and performed acceptably, as did his back-up Jacobs from Hull, as left footers playing on the right hand side.  7 assists came from these four players - I should probably be expecting more? 
  • I did notice in implementing the opposition instructions that when the AI manager plays IWBs he keeps them on their natural flanks.  Maybe you just need to find those that are rubbish at crossing and therefore content to be a IWB on their natural side?
• DM was rotated between Bernard, Palmer (pre IWB conversion) and Bannan and performances were pretty consistent/acceptable) whoever played there - none of them provided an assist from this position though.
• CMs didn’t perform - there appearing to be a constant fight between player traits conflicting with team and player instructions.  Bannon, probably our most technical player, didn’t perform at CM - most likely because his traits include comes deep to get the ball and tries long range passes.  Volks has takes long shots and took long shots 1.00/90 when his total shots/90 was only 1.21.  Windass was probably the best of the established players but kicked up a fuss when played anywhere that wasn’t his favoured AM.  I was left to recall Bakinson from loan and introduce Shipston from the U-21’s who has 14 first touch and 15 flair and performed okay - one for the future at least.
  • Speaking of flair, it would appear from the player selection feedback screen that flair has a greater impact on spotting a pass and vision governs how suitable a player is to roam from position.  I had always assumed the other way round - anyone else?
• It was a similar situation with the IW’s - trying and failing to get a tune out of Poveda, Johnson (16 Cro), Musaba (14+ acc, agi, dri), Delgado, Gassama (13+ acc, agi, dri) and Wilks (14 acc, agi, pac) but pretty much to no avail.  Delgado possibly the most complete and one I expected most from Dri, Cro, Tec, Fla, Acc, Agi, Pac all 13+ - maybe the Chilean is struggling to settle in the UK - or is it that they need the possession based attributes (rather than traditional IW ones) to find the men in space when they cut back inside?
  • On top of that I can’t decide whether its better to have the IW play on their natural side, play them on the side where their player trait says they prefer to cut in from, or use their crossing attribute as a guide - play on their natural side if they can cross well?
• Finding a DLF was difficult - Smith and Gregory are aging TM whose legs are going/have gone.  Cadamatri has appalling decision making and Windass, like at CM, does a good job but gets upset about doing it.  I eventually settled for converting winger Musaba (3 goals in 8 games), but this was only in March having tried pretty much everyone else.

Elsewhere with the tactic, the defensive corner routine has not worked for us - conceding 13 goals, 26% of all the gaols we conceded.  There were a further 3 goals from IDFKs too, but happily none from DFKs.  Tweaks here when I noticed this as a potential issue pre-Christmas might have meant a push for the playoff, however I wanted to be true to the tactical ethos.

I took a slightly different approach to player development - moving all U-21 & U-18s to the first team - so as to reduce costs on staff and be able to expose players to mentoring at the expense of the development schedules.  Game time was ensured for those considered to have the most potential by making them available to the appropriate age group teams.  There has been development in many of these players and those with five star potential Fusire, Cadamarteri, Charles and Gassama appear to have improved at a greater rate than many.  However, the greatest development was seen in Brennan (aged 24) whilst retraining him as a IWB on the left - this would appear to support Zealand’s theory about the potential ability star rating not being the greatest predictor of potential (Brennan being 2.5 star ability with 3 star potential) - albeit he doesn’t appear to have a massively professional personality either (level headed and balanced) to fully support why he’s developed so much?

I plan to continue with this approach for another season - which will be one where I will be pretty much starting from scratch with team cohesion as most of the big earners with conflicting player traits and suspect personalities are out of contract.  With the club massively in debt the calibre of player that comes in might not be as good as what is being let go, but hopefully players with a good base of possessional attributes who are vaguely professional and have only traits complementary to the tactic (or none at all) may be the solution to the issues above.  I hope my scouts have been busy having left all that to my chief scout.  Changing the defensive corner routine at this level may also go some way to improving things.

I used in a save a more simple approach.

Less instructions for the team.( I'm still on FM 22.)

In possession : - much shorter passing, dribble less, very narrow, play out defense, work ball into box.

In transition : - Counterpress, Gk take short kicks.

Out of possession : - Much higher line of engagement, much higher defensive line, pressing much more often, offside trap.

For the roles, i don't use any players instructions. Sk su : take some risks but not too much.

For the defense i use two CB on defend : just pass the ball between them and the DM def.

Two WBs on support : they provide width on the flanks.

The midfield trio : a DM on defend just to protect the defense and play simple. Two CM's on support. They keep the  balance on midfield. But the PPM can very important. A CM with no PI's but with gets forward on PPM can be a very good goal threat.

And the little difference i used on roles is the Inside Forward (on support of course for keeping the very fluid shape). He will take space behind the defense.

And a DLF on support.

If it can help.

 

 

Edited March 26 by coach vahid