Shadow striker not working

[robinthebest]

Hi guys, I am playing as Werder Bremen, I have Fullkurg as my target man, he is scoring goals, but my Shadow Striker is doing nothing all games and passing combination shows the Target man is not linking up with the SS.

I tried both 4411 and 4231, my SS is having under 6.5 every game, is it the match engine issue or is there any other way?

 

And it often goes like this, the AM will receive 0 passes from the TM himself and will have the least touches in the game

Edited July 29, 2023 by robinthebest

[Johnny Ace]

I think the IF(A) is an issue, I always used Wingers and Inverted Wingers on Support to get the best from a SS because the IF would just nab all the goals 

[robinthebest]

29 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

I think the IF(A) is an issue, I always used Wingers and Inverted Wingers on Support to get the best from a SS because the IF would just nab all the goals 

I dont think its the issue, watching SS playing with a TF playing, they often occupying the same position and people will refuse to pass the ball to SS...

 

And the SS always receive 0 pass from TF...

Edited July 29, 2023 by robinthebest

[Johnny Ace]

1 hour ago, robinthebest said:

I dont think its the issue, watching SS playing with a TF playing, they often occupying the same position and people will refuse to pass the ball to SS...

The SS should be moving into channels, it's not a very goal direct role and is quite creative and mobile, I wouldn't have thought they would pile up myself. Had a thought, maybe the TF is dropping too deep?

1 hour ago, robinthebest said:

And the SS always receive 0 pass from TF...

 That's annoying, who is the TF passing to?

Here's a post where I was trying the role out in FM19 

From using it since, it's about the same, I used an AM(A) instead last year, found that was more of a direct goalscoring role 

[robinthebest]

2 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:

The SS should be moving into channels, it's not a very goal direct role and is quite creative and mobile, I wouldn't have thought they would pile up myself. Had a thought, maybe the TF is dropping too deep?

 That's annoying, who is the TF passing to?

Here's a post where I was trying the role out in FM19 

From using it since, it's about the same, I used an AM(A) instead last year, found that was more of a direct goalscoring role 

Mostly passing to my Wingers and MC...

[Johnny Ace]

24 minutes ago, robinthebest said:

Mostly passing to my Wingers and MC...

Gutting, maybe give a DLF(S)/(A) a try instead but there's nothing to guarantee that linkup 

[CARRERA]

You cannot expect your players to perform certain roles perfectly, if they aren’t familiar with what you ask them to do. Increasing tactical familiarity will properbly solve your problem.

[nick1408]

I’ve always found a shadow striker works better with creative roles rather than targetman-type roles. My best combination was false nine and trequartista strikers with a shadow striker behind. 
 

The following applies to your 4-2-3-1. 
 

you also need to be mindful of defensive midfielders picking up your shadow striker. If he isn’t open he won’t receive passes. If he is open but in a bad position he won’t receive passes. 
 

Shadow strikers need space created for them. A targetman is a pretty static role and relies on height to knock balls down to poacher-type players (poachers, inside forwards etc). The shadow striker wants space opened up for him to move into before receiving a pass. With a lopsided striker positioning you have setup I would expect the centre back and left back to pickup the striker while the other centre back and/or defensive midfielder to work your shadow striker. Right now you are opening space for the inside forward. 
 

If I was setting up I’d move the targetman to be central and test him on attacking. The other option is look at is a 2 striker system. The last option I’d try is a deep lying forward on support to try and get him dropping deeper, a creative role on one of the wings (advanced playmaker, trequartista or inside winger) or move Fulkrug to the wing as a wide targetman and use an advanced forward, false nine, deep lying forward with the shadow striker. 
 

the other thing is look at is team instructions. Without testing, more direct passing seems like it’d look to use the targetman and with counter it just seems like you want to get the ball forward and shoot, not build to allow the best positioning for the shadow striker to use. I’d remove counter, I’d make passing default (let the players choose the best pass) and I’d experiment with width. If you’re too wide it may entice the opposition to sit inside to cover central threats. You want the opposition to be opening up to use the shadow strikers runs and through balls. I do like the volante but I’d probably pair him with a support playmaker or defensive midfielder. I’m not near the game right now but I’d like to test an attacking volante with the defending playmaker and see what happens there too. That’s probably just more curiosity though. 
 

Depending on what you do if the inside forward remains (and I like the idea here) I’d change him to support. Use him as a secondary scoring option rather than a primary one. 
 

*Edit*
 

Apologies, been thinking about this a bit more while I’m out of the house.  To put some context around the above think about ball delivery forward and specifically to the striker. A targetman will usually get floated crosses due to the role. With a cross he needs to bring the ball to ground either with a short header or control the ball before he can offload it. This is why he will want someone around his feet (if he isn’t your main man). He is also usually up against the opposition’s tallest and best headers. His room for control isn’t much and if the shadow striker isn’t in the exact right spot at the right time I would suspect Fulkrug (who is a good targetman and striker in general) may be favouring Bittencourt due to his positioning as an attacking inside forward. The shadow striker is looking for space to move into and exploit so will want players who can either deliver through balls (in your case, likely from your defensive midfielders) or first touch passes to him. This is where I’d be looking for creative players forward somewhere and why I’d have both defensive midfielders on support. 
 

I’ve only just noticed it but I’d do away with the ball playing defender too. You don’t want him pumping it to the targetman and bypassing the shadow striker. 
 

maybe something like the following I’d start with:

 

GK - any role

Supporting full back

centre back

centre back

attacking (or supporting)

wing back

volante

regista (or roaming playmaker)

 

I’d be tempted to move these two to CM defend and support to try and bring the attacking playmaker into the play a bit more and not have play dictated from defence as well  

Supporting winger/inside winger

shadow striker

trequartista (or attacking advanced playmaker)

not targetman (supporting deep lying forward or false nine if I could)

 

team instructions 

No counter

default width and passing

play out from defence (to try and allow through balls to shadow striker) 

focus play through middle

Edited July 30, 2023 by nick1408

[Cloud9]

13 hours ago, robinthebest said:

Hi guys, I am playing as Werder Bremen, I have Fullkurg as my target man, he is scoring goals, but my Shadow Striker is doing nothing all games and passing combination shows the Target man is not linking up with the SS.

I tried both 4411 and 4231, my SS is having under 6.5 every game, is it the match engine issue or is there any other way?

 

And it often goes like this, the AM will receive 0 passes from the TM himself and will have the least touches in the game

I've been underwhelmed by a traditional attribute SS in a midblock, partly because they are just too far away from goal.

IMO if you're playing one on a mid block, go for the unorthodox in terms of attribute distribution on a player/intended impact of the role. Not the same goalscoring threat he can deliver when your lines are pushed up. 

Like @Johnny Ace mentions, I second an AM(a) serving as a reliable goal threat (esp on a midblock).

F9 + SS is a great combo. You could try playing a Tall F9 instead of the TF role and have crosses aimed to him. 

Edited July 30, 2023 by Cloud9

[Johnny Ace]

22 minutes ago, Cloud9 said:

F9 + SS is a great combo. You could try playing a Tall F9 instead of the TF role and have crosses aimed to him. 

That's kinda why I suggested the DLF route, if his guy is a TF, he could be a handy DLF in the back to goal, hold the ball up, looking for the SS in the channels sense. A giant F9 could be fun too 

[Captain_T]

@robinthebest

For me it sounds a bit strange, that there are 0 passes from the TF to the SS. Even if there are some tactical problems, there should be at least a few passes.

Maybe the passing map is not showing the correct amount? Have you watched the complete games or only Highlights?

Do you have this in every game or from time to time?

[robinthebest]

6 hours ago, Captain_T said:

@robinthebest

For me it sounds a bit strange, that there are 0 passes from the TF to the SS. Even if there are some tactical problems, there should be at least a few passes.

Maybe the passing map is not showing the correct amount? Have you watched the complete games or only Highlights?

Do you have this in every game or from time to time?

I replay a same game for 10 times, in total the TF pass <10 times to SS and vice versa, i think it is a match engine issue

[herne79]

4 hours ago, robinthebest said:

I replay a same game for 10 times, in total the TF pass <10 times to SS and vice versa, i think it is a match engine issue

Roles in FM tend to be based on real life equivalents.

So traditionally a Target Man would tend to be used in a two up top formation (eg., 442) as a big man / little man combination, such as with a Poacher or Advanced Forward (think old school English football).

Likewise a Shadow Striker might tend to be used with a False 9 or Trequartista in say a 4231 formation (eg., Spain / Barcelona).

That's not to say they cannot be used in other formations or striker pairings but that can be a decent starting point.

btw using offset pairings as you are may cause issues - for example in a 4231 where the STC and AMC are vertically aligned both have options to run into different channels.  Offsetting them as you have done at the top may cut off channels and limit their runs to be more one dimensional.  It can of course work but watch to see their movement and how they interact.  If they have very few passes between each other as you are seeing that may be a cause.

TL;DR you're doing things a little out of the ordinary which, whilst that can work, may be something to investigate further before thinking about ME issues.

[Cloud9]

3 hours ago, herne79 said:

Roles in FM tend to be based on real life equivalents.

So traditionally a Target Man would tend to be used in a two up top formation (eg., 442) as a big man / little man combination, such as with a Poacher or Advanced Forward (think old school English football).

Likewise a Shadow Striker might tend to be used with a False 9 or Trequartista in say a 4231 formation (eg., Spain / Barcelona).

That's not to say they cannot be used in other formations or striker pairings but that can be a decent starting point.

btw using offset pairings as you are may cause issues - for example in a 4231 where the STC and AMC are vertically aligned both have options to run into different channels.  Offsetting them as you have done at the top may cut off channels and limit their runs to be more one dimensional.  It can of course work but watch to see their movement and how they interact.  If they have very few passes between each other as you are seeing that may be a cause.

TL;DR you're doing things a little out of the ordinary which, whilst that can work, may be something to investigate further before thinking about ME issues.

Giroud plays as a solo TF for France/AC Milan I think? West Ham also like the solo TF in Antonio/Scamacca, as do Fulham w/Mitrovic. 

Edited July 31, 2023 by Cloud9

[herne79]

7 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

Giroud plays as a solo TF for France/AC Milan I think? West Ham also like the solo TF in Antonio/Scamacca, as do Fulham w/Mitrovic. 

 

10 hours ago, herne79 said:

That's not to say they cannot be used in other formations or striker pairings

[robinthebest]

9 hours ago, herne79 said:

 

I couldn't make it work tho, my striker actually score quite a lot of goals, but my AMC did nothing at all

[herne79]

3 minutes ago, robinthebest said:

I couldn't make it work tho, my striker actually score quite a lot of goals, but my AMC did nothing at all

Honestly I wouldn't try using a TM(support) / SS combo.  Pair a TM(s) with a "proper" strike partner (such as Poacher or Advanced Forward) or, as mentioned above, a more creative type striker with an SS.  You'll have a lot less hair pulling .

[Cloud9]

2 hours ago, robinthebest said:

I couldn't make it work tho, my striker actually score quite a lot of goals, but my AMC did nothing at all

So one of the problems in the current ME is that on a midblock (or low block) a solo supporting striker won't put pressure on the oppositon backline. This means the opposition backline will walk up the pitch and your tactic can fall apart pretty easily.

• I suspect that's what's happening here and leaving the SS even more isolated.
• You can't get that same consistent pressure from wide players like you can IRL, which can pigeon hole you into using an attack duty solo striker. 

If you want that TF(s)/SS combo to start firing I'd move the lines up and see how it plays, otherwise I'd second adding in an attack duty striker. 

Edited July 31, 2023 by Cloud9

[bosque]

2 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

So one of the problems in the current ME is that on a midblock (or low block) a solo supporting striker won't put pressure on the oppositon backline. This means the opposition backline will walk up the pitch and your tactic can fall apart pretty easily.

• I suspect that's what's happening here and leaving the SS even more isolated.
• You can't get that same consistent pressure from wide players like you can IRL, which can pigeon hole you into using an attack duty solo striker. 

If you want that TF(s)/SS combo to start firing I'd move the lines up and see how it plays, otherwise I'd second adding in an attack duty striker. 

When you talk about strikers or attakers putting pressure on the opposition backline do you mean when opposition team has the ball? Like closing down the opposition? Or pressure by runs in behind?

[sonnevillejr]

I'm using a 4231 DM at the moment, with one IW on support, one W on attack, and a CFsu/SS combination, and my CFsu is by far the top scorer of my team (+30) while my SS scored less than 10 I think. 

But I think it can be explained by the fact that :

1. My CFsu is the best player of my team

2. I rotate my SS way more than my CF

3. I guess a CFsu is more likely to be in the box to finish than a DLFsu on support who prefers to let others players enter the box before him (it's in the description).

I don't think a Target Man, even on support, drop as much as a DLF, and since he does not move into channels, I suppose he will score more frequently

[Cloud9]

5 hours ago, bosque said:

When you talk about strikers or attakers putting pressure on the opposition backline do you mean when opposition team has the ball? Like closing down the opposition? Or pressure by runs in behind?

Yep, putting pressure on the opposition when you're out of possession (w/a midblock that's a lot of the time).

This is done not through traditional pressing, but literally just by them hanging out on the shoulder of the opposition backline. They constantly threaten the potential of a run in behind, which keeps the defenders honest. The pressing part is separate to this, w/a midblock you're usually looking for your midfielders to primarily do the dirty work and win the ball back for you. 

Biggest thing on a midblock IMO is making sure you're a goal threat to the opposition at all times. Even when you're letting them set the pace of the game, you need to have your own thing going on  

Edited August 1, 2023 by Cloud9

[Johnny Ace]

6 hours ago, sonnevillejr said:

I'm using a 4231 DM at the moment, with one IW on support, one W on attack, and a CFsu/SS combination, and my CFsu is by far the top scorer of my team (+30) while my SS scored less than 10 I think. 

CF/SS is a fantastic combo  Of course the classic combo is F9/SS, then if no F9 is available, a DLF(S) 

6 hours ago, sonnevillejr said:

But I think it can be explained by the fact that :

1. My CFsu is the best player of my team

2. I rotate my SS way more than my CF

3. I guess a CFsu is more likely to be in the box to finish than a DLFsu on support who prefers to let others players enter the box before him (it's in the description).

 Another reason is, even though your CF is on Support, he's still the highest placed player in your formation, he's still the striker. I was using a Pressing Forward on Defend and couldn't get him to stop scoring when I wanted him to facilitate my other attacking players and do more of dirty work in a 4-2-3-1. Reason being, he would drop into midfield when we were defending then as soon as the ball was turned over, he'd be getting back into the striker position and finishing off the move 

6 hours ago, sonnevillejr said:

I don't think a Target Man, even on support, drop as much as a DLF, and since he does not move into channels, I suppose he will score more frequently

Agreed, I love a Target Man type as a DLF, I have a BCFC save and I always play Deeney as a DLF(/A) rather than the suggested TM(S) and he still constantly bullies centre backs in the air.