Narrow Diamond Help

[Spartak Trigger]

Hi Guys,

I have done my usual thing of building a squad full of playmakers and very little in the way of midfield destroyers so I'm trying to cover this by packing my midfield which led me toward a narrow diamond.

Not looking for possession for possession's sake, but rather move it up the field in a reasonable time.

2 wing backs, a Car and a Mez to provide width and a DLP to start things going.

I'm a little torn on my front three tho and I'm struggling to create CCCs. I didn't think an AF would be the best choice playing high up but it has so far been the best of a bad bunch.

Anything obvious I'm missing or you could suggest I try please?

[sonnevillejr]

I think your CFsu and your MEZsu are on each other’s way, so I would swipe the strikers.

In that way, the CFsu would have enough space and could work with the Carrilero, while the WBat attack the space. 
On the other side, the AF will push high up the pitch and will free some space for your MEZsu and your WBsu so that they can work with each other 

[deorvd]

Is there any issue with roll it out and distribute to full backs TIs since yours are wing backs? 

If CF support doesn't work, maybe try other support roles such DLF or F9 on the left. I used Treq with comes deep to get ball and it worked great, but now I love F9 more cause I want everyone to try to win the ball back as soon as we lose it and F9 does the job perfectly, both attacking and defending 

[Cloud9]

2 hours ago, sonnevillejr said:

I think your CFsu and your MEZsu are on each other’s way, so I would swipe the strikers.

In that way, the CFsu would have enough space and could work with the Carrilero, while the WBat attack the space. 
On the other side, the AF will push high up the pitch and will free some space for your MEZsu and your WBsu so that they can work with each other 

Players moving into the same area of the pitch isn't negative. You can have a problem with too many players trying to move into the same channel, but that's not an issue with a MEZ(s) and a CF(s) who will float around. I'd even think about putting that MEZ on Attack duty (tons of space on the right hand side to attack).

Some suggestions @Spartak Trigger to consider:

• If you've built a squad of playmakers (ie the midfield 4 have that profile) they all have the attributes of playmakers (and traits) even if they're in more workman like positions. This will cause problems.
• AF/SS isn't a great role combination, especially on a high line system. 
• Not crazy about the attacking mentality.
• Perfect set up for a Halfback instead of the DLP. 

On the three striker partnership you mention, check your CF and make sure he's good enough to play it. Usually they aren't. For the other two, if you want to keep the high lines: the like for like is a Poacher swap for the AF. PF(A) can also be a good subtitute for the AF when you up the lines. AP/AMC are good substitutes for the SS if he's underperforming behind whatever striker partnership you choose. 

Edited April 2, 2023 by Cloud9

[sonnevillejr]

18 minutes ago, Cloud9 said:

Players moving into the same area of the pitch isn't negative. You can have a problem with too many players trying to move into the same channel, but that's not an issue with a MEZ(s) and a CF(s) who will float around. I'd even think about putting that MEZ on Attack duty (tons of space on the right hand side to attack).

Some suggestions @Spartak Trigger to consider:

• If you've built a squad of playmakers (ie the midfield 4 have that profile) they all have the attributes of playmakers (and traits) even if they're in more workman like positions. This will cause problems.
• AF/SS isn't a great role combination, especially on a high line system. 
• Not crazy about the attacking mentality. 
• Perfect set up for a Halfback instead of the DLP. 

Yes, the MEZ could be on attack duty, at least he'll attack the space while the CF drops, but IMO a MEZsu and CFsu on the same side is too much 

[Spartak Trigger]

Thanks guys.

I'll try a few of the suggestions and see how it goes. My CF is perfect for the role and I'm struggling for a HB although I do have a cracking DM coming in at the end of the season

[Johnny Ace]

11 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

 

• If you've built a squad of playmakers (ie the midfield 4 have that profile) they all have the attributes of playmakers (and traits) even if they're in more workman like positions. This will cause problems.

This is an essential point, in any tactic

At least the base of the midfield diamond will all need to be defensively aware and able to make tackles and snuff out attacks. If they're a bunch of play making fairies, the diamond might crumble

You'll be able to get away with a bit more with the Mezzala but the DLP and CARR will need good (for league) Positioning, Anticipation, Work Rate, Tackling, Team Work etc to help perform their defensive duties.     

[Spartak Trigger]

So I have made a few changes and brought in a decent half back and car.

Still not firing and getting some strange results. beat Man CIty , played Man Utd off the park but got 1-1 draw.

Smashed by Liverpool away and the rest have been really mixed against mid table clubs.

I think my CF is good enough or at least not far away .

I'm in my 5th season in the PL as Port Vale and expected to be mid table myself

[herne79]

imo the biggest challenge you face is the formation.  For me, the narrow diamond is the most challenging formation to get right and the key is your flank players - I would happily spend my entire transfer budget to bring in the best wide players I can.  That, in combination with some tactical settings is the primary focus.

So - do your wingbacks have Determination, Pace, Stamina, Work Rate, Aggression and Natural Fitness to spare?  You also use the attack duty Wingback: nothing wrong with that per se but when combined with a relatively aggressive mentality (which makes them even more forward thinking) and players who may not be up to the task you run the risk of leaving your flanks open to attack.  Also check if your wingbacks have the gets forward often Trait.  If they do then that combined with the chosen mentality and role/duty could be the root of issues.

Your use of a halfback (a role I dislike anyway) in this particular formation may also be cause for concern - if your wingbacks get caught out of position (especially on the right where you also have a super aggressive Mez), is the HB covering sufficiently?  A BWM may be a better option if not.

And speaking of the Mez, do you really need to give him an attack duty?  If you’re happy with his performance then no worries - just keep an eye on your right flank when transitioning back to defence.

TL;DR - your combination of Mentality, wingback duty + players, Halfback and Mez Attack is where I’d start.

[Johnny Ace]

1 minute ago, herne79 said:

imo the biggest challenge you face is the formation.  For me, the narrow diamond is the most challenging formation to get right and the key is your flank players - I would happily spend my entire transfer budget to bring in the best wide players I can. 

It's either that or make sure you have 6 of them 

 

[Spartak Trigger]

I thought the idea of an HB was to allow you to be more aggressive with your full-backs?

Maybe a drop to balanced, swith to FB(s) and drop the mez to s?

[herne79]

11 minutes ago, Spartak Trigger said:

I thought the idea of an HB was to allow you to be more aggressive with your full-backs?

Maybe a drop to balanced, swith to FB(s) and drop the mez to s?

You already have aggressive fullbacks.  This is why I mention you have a combination of factors (mentality, role, duty, player attributes, halfback etc) all of which combined may cause you issues by (potentially) making them overly aggressive.

There’s no need to change anything unless you see problems - I’m just suggesting where to focus to see if there are issues and if there are what may be causing them and what you may be able to do about it 👍.  If you do decide to make changes, make them one step at a time - if you change lots of things all at once that could cause other issues.  Slow step changes, not all of it at the same time 👍.

[Drikcey75]

also i heard in a video that since you play with a very narrow formation you should ask your team to strech more so may be try play wider?

[Cloud9]

7 hours ago, Spartak Trigger said:

So I have made a few changes and brought in a decent half back and car.

Still not firing and getting some strange results. beat Man CIty , played Man Utd off the park but got 1-1 draw.

Smashed by Liverpool away and the rest have been really mixed against mid table clubs.

I think my CF is good enough or at least not far away .

I'm in my 5th season in the PL as Port Vale and expected to be mid table myself

Hm, the CF will struggle to hold up the ball (11 strength), make the decisions you're asking of him while roaming (13 decisions), and score from range when he drops deep (11 long shots).

• He looks like a great AF by nature, that agility and balance combination particularly catches the eye. Poacher would also work very well.

Some more ideas to take into consideration:

• I would have the Mez(a) on whichever side the supporting forward ends up being on.
• If you're struggling for consitency I'd take a look at your squad building/management. How's your moral/team cohesion? Do you have a couple of older players mixed in with the wonderkids? Young players get tired really quick, are they getting overplayed?
• As other people mentioned, the formation is highly reliant on the WB's, they've got a ton to do for the tactic to work. If they're not strong enough athletes you'll struggle.
• You originally mentioned you had 4 playmakers in the midfield, that could still be a huge problem for your tactic. The point of the diamond is to push the opponent out of midfield by overloading it, and if they're not aggressive enough you won't be able to impose your game on the opponent. 
• Narrow formations will force opponents into wide areas, you will be getting more crosses into your box. If you're conceding, make sure you have centerbacks that are strong in the air. 
• IRL the diamond formation evolved to deal with the classic 4-4-2, which it dominated. It's fallen off in recent times due to more advanced wide players, you could look to make adjustments against specific tactics that exploit those wide areas against you. 

The data hub can be a really useful tool for diagnosing where the tactic is falling down! 

Edited April 5, 2023 by Cloud9

[LatexGuru]

I am new to the forum but I have been playing this 41212 narrow diamond system for a long time with FM23(2300 hours) and also with previous editions, so I would like to suggest some of my advices to the system.

Since English is not my first language, if u are reading this and find some wordings are a bit strange, it is not my intention.

 

Narrowest Formation

41212 narrow diamond is actually one of the narrowest formation in Football Manager. If we look at some similar system like 4312 narrow or 4132 narrow, which still got 3 players in one horiozntal tier ( 3 player in CM tier), the middle CM will push the left and right CM a bit toward the flank to support the flank play. and also in defence those the protection down the flank is a bit better.

 

Choice of Side Midfieders

However 41212 narrow diamond do not have 3 players in same horizontal tier, which makes CAR and MEZ the almost only suitable role for 41212 system, because both CAR and MEZ are designed by SI to stay wider and support the wingback.  If u try to use any other roels other than CAR or MEZ in CM position in 41212 narrow diamond, sometimes u will see absurdly low rating for your wingbacks (6.3 6.2) even if u won the game, unless u have exceptional wingbacks who can detroy the flank by his own, for exceptional I mean Alphso Davies, Achraf Hakimi level.

Also the side midfielders will need to have determination, decision, stamina, workrate, aggresion, bravery and tackling to help the wingback defend the flanks. Find the right players are important for the system.

Choice of Wingbacks

Football manager games are like real life football, one tactic always need someone to provide width and to be the option on the flank, for 41212 narrow diamond, the only player who can provide width to the system is the wingback, therefore for the system to be successful, that makes the option limited to WB and CWB, sometimes FBA can work but definately not FBS and NFB. FBS and FBD and NFB does not go up the pitch high enough in transition.

Despite from the role of WB, the player selection is important. U need a player who is good at almost everything from attack to defend, I will not list everything here but I think u can get my point. One important thing to note is that u need a player with decent jumping reach as well, otherwise u will concede a lot of back post header(sdo not use player like Tariq Lamptey, he might be good in 5 at the back in in 41212 he will be the vulnerability).

 

Afraid of Quick Counters

Since 41212 narrow diamond really requires WB to get up the pitch, and despite from the CB who can drift wide and protect the space, there will be no one there, therefore the space left by WB going forward will be exploited by some winger system like 4231 433 and maybe 442. If the tactic is not set up reasonable, the tactic lose the ball in transition but wingback already going forward, then opposition winger is getting into space to receive the long ball, it is a concede without looking further to the animation.

 

Playing style 

There are basically 2 playing styles for 41212 narrow diamond.

• The whole team get up the pitch and keep high pressure to the enemy, control the ball in middle and WB continuously provide width and drop crosses 
• Sit in a mid block, launch long balls or quick balls to double strikers to attack

Personaly speaking I prefer the first option, if I would like to play the mid block I can set up a different system that can protect the space much better. But it doesn't neccessary mean from game to game u do not need to do it if u are not managing the greatest club in the world. Against sides like Real Madrid with VInicius, it is important to change WBA to WBS or even WBD to prevent Vinicius get into space(if u do not plan to change formation), and hope they do not score.

 

Conclusion

I will post my tactic below as the starting point if u want to play 41212 narrow diamond, it is not plug and play though, some in match changes are needed. Also I will post my player selection, Wijndal and Singo as WB, and Rosario and Klassen as side midfielders to see the player selection criteria.

My Tactic

 

 

[LatexGuru]

Why the pictures are so big........

For the HB choice, that is my personal preference, I use HB to drop in transition and both BPD told to stay wider and dribble more to get up the pitch. Changing HB to DM can work, but  remember to remove BPD stay wider and dribble more

[JoOSTAR]

22 hours ago, LatexGuru said:

I am new to the forum but I have been playing this 41212 narrow diamond system for a long time with FM23(2300 hours) and also with previous editions, so I would like to suggest some of my advices to the system.

Since English is not my first language, if u are reading this and find some wordings are a bit strange, it is not my intention.

 

Narrowest Formation

41212 narrow diamond is actually one of the narrowest formation in Football Manager. If we look at some similar system like 4312 narrow or 4132 narrow, which still got 3 players in one horiozntal tier ( 3 player in CM tier), the middle CM will push the left and right CM a bit toward the flank to support the flank play. and also in defence those the protection down the flank is a bit better.

 

Choice of Side Midfieders

However 41212 narrow diamond do not have 3 players in same horizontal tier, which makes CAR and MEZ the almost only suitable role for 41212 system, because both CAR and MEZ are designed by SI to stay wider and support the wingback.  If u try to use any other roels other than CAR or MEZ in CM position in 41212 narrow diamond, sometimes u will see absurdly low rating for your wingbacks (6.3 6.2) even if u won the game, unless u have exceptional wingbacks who can detroy the flank by his own, for exceptional I mean Alphso Davies, Achraf Hakimi level.

Also the side midfielders will need to have determination, decision, stamina, workrate, aggresion, bravery and tackling to help the wingback defend the flanks. Find the right players are important for the system.

Choice of Wingbacks

Football manager games are like real life football, one tactic always need someone to provide width and to be the option on the flank, for 41212 narrow diamond, the only player who can provide width to the system is the wingback, therefore for the system to be successful, that makes the option limited to WB and CWB, sometimes FBA can work but definately not FBS and NFB. FBS and FBD and NFB does not go up the pitch high enough in transition.

Despite from the role of WB, the player selection is important. U need a player who is good at almost everything from attack to defend, I will not list everything here but I think u can get my point. One important thing to note is that u need a player with decent jumping reach as well, otherwise u will concede a lot of back post header(sdo not use player like Tariq Lamptey, he might be good in 5 at the back in in 41212 he will be the vulnerability).

 

Afraid of Quick Counters

Since 41212 narrow diamond really requires WB to get up the pitch, and despite from the CB who can drift wide and protect the space, there will be no one there, therefore the space left by WB going forward will be exploited by some winger system like 4231 433 and maybe 442. If the tactic is not set up reasonable, the tactic lose the ball in transition but wingback already going forward, then opposition winger is getting into space to receive the long ball, it is a concede without looking further to the animation.

 

Playing style 

There are basically 2 playing styles for 41212 narrow diamond.

• The whole team get up the pitch and keep high pressure to the enemy, control the ball in middle and WB continuously provide width and drop crosses 
• Sit in a mid block, launch long balls or quick balls to double strikers to attack

Personaly speaking I prefer the first option, if I would like to play the mid block I can set up a different system that can protect the space much better. But it doesn't neccessary mean from game to game u do not need to do it if u are not managing the greatest club in the world. Against sides like Real Madrid with VInicius, it is important to change WBA to WBS or even WBD to prevent Vinicius get into space(if u do not plan to change formation), and hope they do not score.

 

Conclusion

I will post my tactic below as the starting point if u want to play 41212 narrow diamond, it is not plug and play though, some in match changes are needed. Also I will post my player selection, Wijndal and Singo as WB, and Rosario and Klassen as side midfielders to see the player selection criteria.

My Tactic

 

 

 

Do you use any player instructions?

 

I have a 4-1-2-1-2 myself which is getting good results, I'll post it in this thread later today or tomorrow!

[Kuchiki]

I've only briefly skimmed through but I was playing with a 442 narrow diamond and I did well upto the premiership then I kept getting destroyed down the flanks against 4231, 41221, 442 formations. The problem for me was my two central midfielders I believe. Imo they just couldn't cover enough ground to help defend the wings partly down to wrong player choice I imagine, I should have looked for really physical ballwinners to play in those positions. What I did which really helped was to change to a 4312narrow formation with the central mid on defend thereby still representing the diamond I wanted but what really helped was that it pushed my MCL/R wider so my wingbacks weren't always exposed and my build up play was greatly improved.

[LatexGuru]

13 小时前, JoOSTAR说:

 

Do you use any player instructions?

 

I have a 4-1-2-1-2 myself which is getting good results, I'll post it in this thread later today or tomorrow!

For APS I apply roam from position. Sometimes I apply Mark tighter, drible less and more risky passes to my WB depend on what I want them to do and their attributes

[lennon67]

On 19/04/2023 at 04:53, Kuchiki said:

What I did which really helped was to change to a 4312narrow formation with the central mid on defend thereby still representing the diamond I wanted but what really helped was that it pushed my MCL/R wider so my wingbacks weren't always exposed and my build up play was greatly improved.

What roles did you give them? 

[Kuchiki]

2 hours ago, lennon67 said:

What roles did you give them? 

Originally I had a bwm in the MCL position but I changed that to a Carrirrelo, the build up play seems to be better and I'll usually use a wingback on support or attack on the left. In the MCR position I use a Mezz on either support or attack, both of these midfielders I like to increase closing down for their PI's.