FM - it's not a game for the casuals is it?

[Paul Barton]

12 hours ago, pheelf said:

Talking from personal experience, I've run a simple 4-4-2 with minimal instructions for years and only really make in-game tactical changes when I identify issues.

The key is understanding the formation you are using and knowing what its strengths and weaknesses are. Maximize the strengths and attempt to mitigate the weaknesses.

The best piece of advice I can offer is to WATCH your matches in detail and ANALYZE what you are seeing.

If you are struggling with that perhaps posting some .ppms of the matches where your team lost on here can help.

Ultimately, you need to have a plan of how you want to see the team perform and start building from there.

Saying you want to create a possession based tactic is too vague in my view and it doesn't help others to help you because everybody has a wide range of differing opinions of how they would create such a tactic.

You need to be asking yourself and answering questions such as:

Who do you expect to be your main goalscorer?

How are you going to create goal scoring opportunities for them?

Who creates space when your team attacks and who do you expect to exploit that space?

How are you going to defend? Are you going to attempt to press or hold shape?

When are you going to attempt to win the ball back? 

Do you have players that are capable of playing the way you want?

How are you going to treat transitions?

Once you can answer those questions you will have clear idea of what you are looking to build and also a firm foundation for how to build it.

Finally, tactics aren't the totality of the things you need to consider when trying to get your team to perform. For e.g. looking at your bench, your players are in appalling condition in terms of fitness which indicates to me that you aren't rotating enough and you aren't making your squad players available for the reserves. Bench players need to be fit and raring to go much like your first choice players as you could be depending on them to come off the bench at any time and have an impact. How are they supposed to do that when the majority aren't even close to being match fit? 

All the best

So to try and answer your questions, if I'm honest, I hadn't really thought about it all that much. I had hoped to pick a formation and then work out what player instructions can fit within that but without really having much throught with what I actually wanted to do. I ended up getting sacked after a dreadful run. I'm putting it down to the learning process, however. I think I've learned a few things even just playing tonight. I'm determined to play the game my way in terms of learning to build tactics myself rather than download one as there's zero fun in that. 

Tomorrow I intend to start a new save with Lazio again and try and put what I learnt from this save into the new one. 

So to set out a plan and answer some of these questions:

I'd like to stick with a 5221 formation. Think this suits the players I have. 

My main goalscorer will be Immobile. Although I'd also like SMS running from deep and getting into the box. Thinking AF and AMC att. Will stick with Alberto as APM on sup. 

I'd like to see through balls played for Immobile and with the wing backs providing crosses to assist & hopefully see SMS arriving in the box to support. I was getting some success with that last time. It seems to make sense to me. 

I'd like to play a pressing system. Lazio have the players to do that. With regards to transitions, I really don't know exactly how I'd like this to work out but thinking about how I'd like to play, I think winning the ball back high up the pitch could make sense? 

I do usually rotate a decent amount. The problem I had was the that there was a big drop off in quality with the backup players and when you're constantly losing the last thing you want to do is weaken your side. But I'll try and be a little more aware of that this time! 

One thing that I have learnt tonight is that 'work ball into box' doesn't just relate to when you're in and around the box. My defenders just kept hoofing the ball clear despite having a pass around them and being on play out from back. As soon as I did this, they start to actual try keep the ball.

Another thing I was noticing was that my full backs were allowing a fair amount of crosses into the box. What's the best way to combat that? Defend wider and perhaps get them tackle harder? 

I'll start again tomorrow with a 'clean slate' and only work ball into box selected and go from there. 

[Experienced Defender]

5 minutes ago, Paul Barton said:

I'll start again tomorrow with a 'clean slate' and only work ball into box selected and go from there

Why specifally the WBiB of all instructions? 

Anyway, the first thing you need to understand is that the setup of roles and duties is key. Instructions matter, but are of secondary importance compared to roles and duties. Also, instructions are effective only if they are consistent both with roles and duties and one another. Otherwise, they mean little (if anything).

Last but not least: tactical elements - roles, duties and instruction (including the mentality) - work exclusively in conjunction, so you should never view them in isolation.

[Paul Barton]

8 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Why specifally the WBiB of all instructions? 

Anyway, the first thing you need to understand is that the setup of roles and duties is key. Instructions matter, but are of secondary importance compared to roles and duties. Also, instructions are effective only if they are consistent both with roles and duties and one another. Otherwise, they mean little (if anything).

Last but not least: tactical elements - roles, duties and instruction (including the mentality) - work exclusively in conjunction, so you should never view them in isolation.

Can you expand on your last paragraph please?

With regards to WBIB, it was more based around not watching my defenders hoof aimlessly when options were available. That with shorter passing seems a good starting block. 

Would you suggest starting with a clean slate or a preset of somekind then trying to tweak slightly? 

[HUNT3R]

4 hours ago, Paul Barton said:

With regards to WBIB, it was more based around not watching my defenders hoof aimlessly when options were available.

This wouldn't affect your defenders at all. It reduces long shot and crossing tendencies.

Quote

Would you suggest starting with a clean slate or a preset of somekind then trying to tweak slightly? 

The advice I always give is to start with either no TIs or at least, very few TIs. That way, you see the 'vanilla' tactic as it is. It makes it easier to rectify issues that you see and nothing then stops you to add TIs to build/tweak your tactic until you're satisfied.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Paul Barton said:

Can you expand on your last paragraph please?

With regards to WBIB, it was more based around not watching my defenders hoof aimlessly when options were available. That with shorter passing seems a good starting block. 

Would you suggest starting with a clean slate or a preset of somekind then trying to tweak slightly? 

So a defender hoofing it when you very clearly don't want him to could be two things, Tactical or the actual player themselves. When my scouts first came back with Luiz Felipe I was salivating until I got to to his concentration which is poor especially if you are considering a high press/high line. His low composure and decisions however also mean that there is a chance than any sort of decent press on him will see him hoof it away, Hoedt is the same as well albeit his vision and passing are better but Hoedts anticipation is also quite low which doesn't help with a high line. That's not to say a high line can't work with them but it's certainly something to consider if you are seeing issues there.

When I messed around with a Lazio save yesterday it was palpable that a few of the defenders had low concentration which means they could be fine for 89 minutes but just once completely switch off and someone will be behind them in an instant which is exactly what I discovered by analysing the first two games without looking at attributes. The issue is someone like Acerbi has all the right mental attributes but his acceleration and agility mean if someone gets behind they are pretty much gone. 

These are also the things you need to also watch out for and why you need to analyse your tactics not just where the goals are coming from but where your turnovers are coming from and why it's happening and what you can do to minimise these issues. The biggest part for me in the learning process was the analysis part, it was like a lightbulb suddenly came on and I realised yeah, now I can see my IF with poor dribbling and mental attributes is turning the ball over in key areas and I am leaving my entire midfield open and defenders exposed to be picked apart. Previously it was always the defenders fault in my eyes because I was looking at certain moments in isolation as opposed to the bigger picture.

 

Edited March 16, 2021 by Crazy_Ivan

[Paul Barton]

2 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

This wouldn't affect your defenders at all. It reduces long shot and crossing tendencies.

The advice I always give is to start with either no TIs or at least, very few TIs. That way, you see the 'vanilla' tactic as it is. It makes it easier to rectify issues that you see and nothing then stops you to add TIs to build/tweak your tactic until you're satisfied.

It must just be a coincidence then? As my defenders were aimlessly hoofing it but then I switched to WBIB and it seemed to lead to them taking their time and trying to pass the ball? 

[Paul Barton]

23 minutes ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

So a defender hoofing it when you very clearly don't want him to could be two things, Tactical or the actual player themselves. When my scouts first came back with Luiz Felipe I was salivating until I got to to his concentration which is poor especially if you are considering a high press/high line. His low composure and decisions however also mean that there is a chance than any sort of decent press on him will see him hoof it away, Hoedt is the same as well albeit his vision and passing are better but Hoedts anticipation is also quite low which doesn't help with a high line. That's not to say a high line can't work with them but it's certainly something to consider if you are seeing issues there.

When I messed around with a Lazio save yesterday it was palpable that a few of the defenders had low concentration which means they could be fine for 89 minutes but just once completely switch off and someone will be behind them in an instant which is exactly what I discovered by analysing the first two games without looking at attributes. The issue is someone like Acerbi has all the right mental attributes but his acceleration and agility mean if someone gets behind they are pretty much gone. 

These are also the things you need to also watch out for and why you need to analyse your tactics not just where the goals are coming from but where your turnovers are coming from and why it's happening and what you can do to minimise these issues. The biggest part for me in the learning process was the analysis part, it was like a lightbulb suddenly came on and I realised yeah, now I can see my IF with poor dribbling and mental attributes is turning the ball over in key areas and I am leaving my entire midfield open and defenders exposed to be picked apart. Previously it was always the defenders fault in my eyes because I was looking at certain moments in isolation as opposed to the bigger picture.

 

If you were to continue with that Lazio save, what formation and TIs would you play and why? 

[Guest]

54 minutes ago, Paul Barton said:

If you were to continue with that Lazio save, what formation and TIs would you play and why? 

I am very uncompromising tbh so I stick to my system and mould players around it rather making a system to suit the players or indeed sell players and buy players that suit my system better.

For instance in my current save I am stuck with Milik as a loan with obligation and there is too much invested in him. He doesn't suit a F9 in my system but he has good mentals and his height, heading ability(meaning he wins when isolated against fullbacks) and pace are excellent so I convert him to play as a an IF but then there is an issue that he turns the ball over a lot because he has poor dribbling and passing ability, one I can tone down in his individual instructions, one I can offset a bit by teaching him the PPM "runs with the ball rarely" which then produces a player like this.

A player that doesn't dribble nearly as much as the better equipped wide players, is far more selective with his shots and basically keeps the passing simple and recycles rather than forces. Essentially through these different instructions on different players I have made my players work the ball in to the box themselves.

If I was playing as Lazio Milenkovic would be a F9 and so and and so on but this brings up another problem with that Lazio squad. I have never seen a squad with so many PPMs on so many players. More than one player has 5 PPMs too which is quite amazing so that adds another layer, so personally all things considered I think you are really on the right track with what you laid out in your post at the top of the page now take the advice given and start off simple and analyse it from there.  

Edited March 16, 2021 by Crazy_Ivan

[Paul Barton]

27 minutes ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

I am very uncompromising tbh so I stick to my system and mould players around it rather making a system to suit the players or indeed sell players and buy players that suit my system better.

For instance in my current save I am stuck with Milik as a loan with obligation and there is too much invested in him. He doesn't suit a F9 in my system but he has good mentals and his height, heading ability(meaning he wins when isolated against fullbacks) and pace are excellent so I convert him to play as a an IF but then there is an issue that he turns the ball over a lot because he has poor dribbling and passing ability, one I can tone down in his individual instructions, one I can offset a bit by teaching him the PPM "runs with the ball rarely" which then produces a player like this.

A player that doesn't dribble nearly as much as the better equipped wide players, is far more selective with his shots and basically keeps the passing simple and recycles rather than forces. Essentially through these different instructions on different players I have made my players work the ball in to the box themselves.

If I was playing as Lazio Milenkovic would be a F9 and so and and so on but this brings up another problem with that Lazio squad. I have never seen a squad with so many PPMs on so many players. More than one player has 5 PPMs too which is quite amazing so that adds another layer, so personally all things considered I think you are really on the right track with what you laid out in your post at the top of the page now take the advice given and start off simple and analyse it from there.  

Will give it a go later and play simple. I think it'll take time for me to be able to dissect what's actually happening in games more but we shall see how it goes this time round. 

SMS as a false 9? Alongside Immobile? 

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, Paul Barton said:

Will give it a go later and play simple. I think it'll take time for me to be able to dissect what's actually happening in games more but we shall see how it goes this time round. 

SMS as a false 9? Alongside Immobile? 

Noooo that's not what I was saying.  Forget all that part, I was trying to make a point that players can be moulded to tactics too.

[pheelf]

10 hours ago, Paul Barton said:

So to try and answer your questions, if I'm honest, I hadn't really thought about it all that much. I had hoped to pick a formation and then work out what player instructions can fit within that but without really having much throught with what I actually wanted to do. I ended up getting sacked after a dreadful run. I'm putting it down to the learning process, however. I think I've learned a few things even just playing tonight. I'm determined to play the game my way in terms of learning to build tactics myself rather than download one as there's zero fun in that. 

Tomorrow I intend to start a new save with Lazio again and try and put what I learnt from this save into the new one. 

So to set out a plan and answer some of these questions:

I'd like to stick with a 5221 formation. Think this suits the players I have. 

My main goalscorer will be Immobile. Although I'd also like SMS running from deep and getting into the box. Thinking AF and AMC att. Will stick with Alberto as APM on sup. 

I'd like to see through balls played for Immobile and with the wing backs providing crosses to assist & hopefully see SMS arriving in the box to support. I was getting some success with that last time. It seems to make sense to me. 

I'd like to play a pressing system. Lazio have the players to do that. With regards to transitions, I really don't know exactly how I'd like this to work out but thinking about how I'd like to play, I think winning the ball back high up the pitch could make sense? 

I do usually rotate a decent amount. The problem I had was the that there was a big drop off in quality with the backup players and when you're constantly losing the last thing you want to do is weaken your side. But I'll try and be a little more aware of that this time! 

One thing that I have learnt tonight is that 'work ball into box' doesn't just relate to when you're in and around the box. My defenders just kept hoofing the ball clear despite having a pass around them and being on play out from back. As soon as I did this, they start to actual try keep the ball.

Another thing I was noticing was that my full backs were allowing a fair amount of crosses into the box. What's the best way to combat that? Defend wider and perhaps get them tackle harder? 

I'll start again tomorrow with a 'clean slate' and only work ball into box selected and go from there. 

I'll try to address your points in the order you raised them.

You say the 5-2-2-1 suits the players you have, may I ask what you are basing this on? Do you have a pair of great wingbacks? I think it's imperative that they are as they will be getting no support to fulfill their attacking or defensive responsibilities and are the only source of width you have.

Wanting Immobile to be your main goalscorer is perfectly reasonable. What are his strengths and what kind of service does he need to perform at his best?

You say that you want SMS running from deeper to get into the box but who opens up the space for him to do that?

When you say you want to see through balls played for Immobile what do you mean by this? Long range balls over the top from the DLP? Shorter range passes from the AP Alberto?

What kind of crosses do you want to see? Are SMS or Immobile particularly good in the air? Are your wingbacks good at crossing the ball? Does the tempo of your attacks allow your wingbacks to regularly get up the pitch into positions from where they can cross? Finally, who is drawing the opposition fullbacks narrower in order to give space to the wingbacks so they can cross?

Playing a high pressing system sounds a good idea on the surface considering that you are adopting a top heavy formation but when you look a bit deeper it could be an issue. If you played with a high LoE so that you expected your press to start with your front 3 I could see that forcing the opposition down the flanks as that would be where the space is. The problem with that is it would expose the vulnerability of the formation you've chosen. You don't want teams regularly attacking you down the flanks where they can easily outnumber and overload your wingbacks.

That is probably why you are observing your fullbacks struggling to block crosses, they can't cover for two players. If they go and close down one of the wide players, the other is left open and can cross the ball practically unchallenged. I don't think defending wider or getting them to tackle harder will help. It's a fundamental weakness of playing with only 1 wide player on each flank. The only way to mitigate it in my view is to try and force the opponent into attacking you centrally where you are stronger.

I agree with @Experienced Defender with regards to the WBIB instruction. Why play wingbacks if you don't want crossing to be a major component of your attacking play?

I also agree with @Crazy_Ivan, it makes far more sense to try and mould a team to play a system that you fully understand rather than try to concoct something based on the players you have available. The trouble with that approach is that very often teams don't have particularly balanced squads and trying to fit in all the best players in their best roles and duties can be a headache at best and impossible at worst. Unless you are going to try and replicate precisely the tactic you see their current manager play you are always going to have a problem of square pegs in round holes until you mould the team in your image.

I'd much rather play a lower ability player in a role which suits the tactic than have a higher ability player in a role which doesn't, I had to learn that the hard way. It was only when I saw one of the poorest players in the first team vastly outperform my first choice MC who was injured that the penny finally dropped. Therefore I wouldn't get too hung up on the ability of the so called 'lesser' players in the squad, you'd be surprised how well a player can perform in a coherent and balanced tactic.

Hopefully, I have given you something to think about.

Cheers

[Paul Barton]

So, i started again this evening. Have started with 2 wins from 2 - looking much more of a threat going forward having started with the "fluid counter attack" pre-set but took a few TI's out & amended some player roles. I'm not convinced that this is entirely balanced. Lucas has been playing in the centre - although wondering if it maybe best to move him out wide to compensate for Lazzari moving forward more. 

 

One thing i have noticed it getting caught 2 v 1 in the wide areas which has resulted in a lot of conceded chances. I've tried to defend wider. I can of course still go up one notch - but any suggestions on how to combat this and any other opinions on how this is currently looking?

[pheelf]

Tactic looks more balanced than before so for that.

As to how you try and prevent the 2v1 situations against the wingbacks. Unfortunately, you are never going to eliminate this completely as they are the only players whose responsibility is to defend the flanks.

Perhaps putting your MCL and MCR into the Carrilero duty could work with the AP(A) pushed into the middle. That way they will attempt to cover more for the wingbacks. I feel having a back 3 affords you more freedom to play without a defend duty central midfielder so wouldn't be concerned that would be adding too much risk.

You could also build your defensive plan around actively encouraging them to cross the ball and use the outer central defenders to tightly mark the intended targets in the box.

My only question would be why you are playing with a lower defensive line while adopting a sweeper keeper?

All the best

[Gold]

I think the roles in your formation are fine. I cant see the player instructions but should be ok with default.

I think you have to fix team instructions. You have to balance if you have too many team instructions theres more chance of mistakes with without them you lose thier benefits.

When you pick team instructions you have to think of the big picture as some things go hand in hand, like short passing is best compact, direct is expansive, and then choose speed, pass to space according to your overall picture.

Also if you are struggling to score. The odd setpiece goal can help win points.

[Paul Barton]

I've had to make a few changes as it still just doesn't seem to be right. I'm not creating enough chances despite being fairly solid at the back. I'm currently trying to play two behind Immobile again to get my best players into the side really. Trying to feed through balls into Immobile and the SS. I think the side is setup with balance - although happy to take opinions as is the case. Trying to keep things simple with the TI's and looking to play a patient passing game as this seems to be what works for me when i play this game! I've actually started the season fairly well with 4 wins and 2 draws - but just not really playing well in any game.

[Guv'nor]

^Wingbacks pushed up to Defensive Wingers/Wide Midfielders, defensive mentality the midfield, CM and a BWM perhaps. Could double up the SS or leave it status. Once upon a time, the 3-5-2, was often played 3-2-3-2, with greater licence for adventure afforded the wingers in the knowledge the MCs contributed to the defensive resolve. Ngolo Kante's depth vs Atletico was very interesting yesterday, far deeper than the wingbacks in much of the first half. 

 

[Paul Barton]

7 hours ago, Guv'nor said:

^Wingbacks pushed up to Defensive Wingers/Wide Midfielders, defensive mentality the midfield, CM and a BWM perhaps. Could double up the SS or leave it status. Once upon a time, the 3-5-2, was often played 3-2-3-2, with greater licence for adventure afforded the wingers in the knowledge the MCs contributed to the defensive resolve. Ngolo Kante's depth vs Atletico was very interesting yesterday, far deeper than the wingbacks in much of the first half. 

 

Is 2 defensive CM's a little too defensive? 5 defensive players with just one on support? 

[mibsweden]

Probably not. I'd go with FM Touch if you are pressed for playing time.

[Guv'nor]

2 hours ago, Paul Barton said:

Is 2 defensive CM's a little too defensive? 5 defensive players with just one on support? 

Not at all. Team mentality is the hegemon. Individual mentality results in incremental movement of a player up or down the team’s scale. 
 

Two defensively minded midfielders on a balanced team mentality won’t equate to both players sitting back a million miles from goal as the team attacks. Watch a full match and look at their positioning throughout the phases of play. They’ll still get forward, even with hold position, no forward runs and much lower defensive line activated...the game is not static and neither are positions. It’s all relative. Midfielders occupy the middle of the field. Where is the middle of the field of play when the ball is in the opposing area?
 

Rest assured, the CMdefs will get forward. Moreover they’ll be very malleable to changes in team mentality. And of course, the reciprocal attacking movement, is the substitution of wingbacks for DWs (or WMs).

 

 

Edited March 19, 2021 by Guv'nor

[Johnny Ace]

Very true @Guv'norfor the first time ever in an FM I'm playing a 4-4-2 without some form of CM on D. Past me would've thought that was tactical suicide but it's really not, the 2 CMs interchange, if one goes forward the other holds back so the the players are pretty intelligent in knowing when not to go forward & like in your example, when actually it's safe to go forward 

[Christopher S]

4 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

Very true @Guv'norfor the first time ever in an FM I'm playing a 4-4-2 without some form of CM on D. Past me would've thought that was tactical suicide but it's really not, the 2 CMs interchange, if one goes forward the other holds back so the the players are pretty intelligent in knowing when not to go forward & like in your example, when actually it's safe to go forward 

As a sidenote, as it's easy to forget; remember to be careful with dual support duties in a 4-4-2 in regards to PPMs and certain mental attributes. Things can quickly get dicy!

[Johnny Ace]

2 minutes ago, Christopher S said:

As a sidenote, as it's easy to forget; remember to be careful with dual support duties in a 4-4-2 in regards to PPMs and certain mental attributes. Things can quickly get dicy!

Oh yeah for sure, just don't use two ultra aggressive attacking type players

[pheelf]

I sense you're misguided when you make dramatic changes to your tactic (for e.g. changing the formation and starting mentality) based on the assumption that you should be dominating teams in terms of chance creation.

You're sitting pretty, undefeated at the top of the league with a team which I'm not sure anyone was tipping pre-season to be title contenders and many thought would struggle to get into the top 4. In essence you are currently overachieving and seem to be nitpicking at this point. You simply don't have the players to dominate every game and you need to realistically appraise your teams performances with that in mind, I feel you are perhaps being too harsh.

You are not going to play brilliant, fluid football every game and I think it's unrealistic to have that expectation unless using some sort of exploit tactic. If you can, in your words, not play well and still be overachieving then that is a reason to be cheerful not downbeat as it indicates you are going in the right direction.

It's a process you have to go through and improve incrementally with your philosophy of how you want the team to play. At the start of a save, remember you are playing with very few if any of your own choices for players so it's always going to be difficult to fit players into the roles you want.

As I said before though, it makes more sense to utilize players in roles which they may not be the best in but suit the tactic rather than trying to accommodate your players in their favoured roles which doesn't suit the tactic. For e.g. In my view making a SS work in a possession based approach is awkward not only that but the combination of an AF/SS isn't particular balanced as they both want to run into the channels but who is creating that space for them?

You just have to accept that this is a compromise you might have to make for now. Gradually over time as you begin to move on players that don't suit the style of play and bring in your own players you will begin to see improvements.

Resist the temptation to keep making changes all the time. When you finally lose a game (which you inevitably will) don't take that as a reason to rip up the whole tactic because you feel that the tactic isn't right. Instead try and understand why you lost and look at what could be done to improve, you'll find a lot of the time the issue isn't even tactical.

Have some patience, looking at the tactical familiarity, the team aren't anywhere near fluid. You have to give the team time to understand what you want from them, if during that process you can still get results that's all the better I say. 

Best Regards

[Experienced Defender]

12 hours ago, Paul Barton said:

In terms of roles and duties, I would swap the sides of the 2 AMCs - i.e. AP on the right, and SS on the left. That would make the creation and utilization of space smoother. 

In terms of instructions, definitely would not insist on the play out of defence as a regular instruction. Simply because it can overcomplicate your attacking play + is demanding in terms of players' technical and mental abilities.