4411 need advice

[Novem9]

Hi!

I dont want to use many TI but I feel absent-minded and need some advices for this tactic

Main idea to play solid football against any opposite team. I dont want to play counter attacks only, probably to combinate quick attacks with second tempo

 

Many thanks in advance!

[Tsuru]

I love the 4411 and I use it frequently, so maybe I can help a little bit.

First I think you need to better distribute the roles and duties. In defence I would try a WB-SU on the right behind the W-AT, because it gives the winger a better support - or maybe FB-SU as you play on a high mentality. And I would swap the two CMs - the one with Defend duty on the right and the one with a Support duty on the left.

I would also not use the Mezzala as the second midfielder, he is very aggressive. Maybe a BBM, BWM or CM on support could work here. Personally I love the BBM; but it depends a lot.

The attacking pair looks ok, you have to watch out if the AF is not getting isolated. If so, maybe Player Instructions on the AM SU can help.

Regarding the instructions, I think you don´t have a very specific playstyle that you want to create - am I wrong? If you really don´t have, my advice is to start with the Attacking mentality without any team instructions. Watch some games on full match, observe how your team behaves and take some notes. How does your team attack? Do the players have enough passing options? Are your players creating dangerous chances and kicking right on goal? How the opposite team is behaving, how are they attacking and scoring?

Then use your notes to think what points you want to improve, in attack and in defence, and try to imagine which instructions can do what you want. This way you try to solve the problems that you see on the field.

For example: maybe your team is wasting possession too much on attack, so maybe Shorter Passing can work here. Maybe the opponents are exploring the front of your penalty area, so maybe you need to push up your defensive line to reduce that space. Maybe you are letting opponents too much time on the ball, so a pressing instruction can help here.

Apply the instructions, maybe one or two at once, then see if things improve on the field. There is almost always a B plan on TIs - like if shorter passing does not work for what you need, maybe Play Out Of Defence or Work Ball Into Box can do the job. Or maybe player instructions with shorter passing for specific roles.

I really think it´s easier this way and you avoid random instructions management, which can be a nightmare on Football Manager. Good luck!

Edited January 28, 2021 by Tsuru

[Experienced Defender]

I am wondering who is supposed to help the right back (IWB) when defending his flank? Both roles in front of him are attack-minded and there is no DM in the system.

Couple this with needlessly aggressive defensive TIs and the problem gets even bigger. 

[Novem9]

2 часа назад, Experienced Defender сказал:

I am wondering who is supposed to help the right back (IWB) when defending his flank? Both roles in front of him are attack-minded and there is no DM in the system.

Couple this with needlessly aggressive defensive TIs and the problem gets even bigger. 

It was idea to use IWB(d) as DM to cover MEZ. I didn't take into account that IWB need a cover too

[olegmelnikov]

Happy to see discussion about 4411

20 hours ago, Tsuru said:

Maybe a BBM, BWM or CM on support could work here. Personally I love the BBM; but it depends a lot.

Based on your experience with 4411, how CM on support interacts with AM on support? Won't they operate the same space?  

[smplfc123]

I certainly don't claim to be a tactical expert, but I've had quite a bit of success using a 4-4-1-1 in my last 2 saves, so here's my 2 pence worth.

As people above have said, the left side seems good to me, but the right is unbalanced. I'd change the Mez to a BBM or BWM (I alternate the roles depending on who I'm playing against) and I'd also remove preventing short distribution. A 4-4-1-1 for me means that your striker is the only player close enough to effectively prevent short distributions and he'll just get passed around. It'll mean dragging your flat 4 midfielders much higher up the pitch and out of position, which goes against your want for solid football.

In terms of wanting to combine quick attacks with solid football, I'd suggest having a look at how your players play on Positive mentality too. 

[HowzatFM]

1 hour ago, smplfc123 said:

I certainly don't claim to be a tactical expert, but I've had quite a bit of success using a 4-4-1-1 in my last 2 saves, so here's my 2 pence worth.

As people above have said, the left side seems good to me, but the right is unbalanced. I'd change the Mez to a BBM or BWM (I alternate the roles depending on who I'm playing against) and I'd also remove preventing short distribution. A 4-4-1-1 for me means that your striker is the only player close enough to effectively prevent short distributions and he'll just get passed around. It'll mean dragging your flat 4 midfielders much higher up the pitch and out of position, which goes against your want for solid football.

In terms of wanting to combine quick attacks with solid football, I'd suggest having a look at how your players play on Positive mentality too. 

What has been your best combination of roles for the Striker and AM?

[smplfc123]

15 minutes ago, benhoward12 said:

What has been your best combination of roles for the Striker and AM?

I'll show you the whole set up, so that it can be explained better than those 2 roles in isolation,

                PF(A)                                                       Positive Mentality - TI's In Possession - Play Out Of Defence and Overlap left.
             
                AM(S)

IW(S)  DLP(D) BBM WG(A)

WB(S) CD(D)  BPD(D) FB(S)

              SK(D)

For me it's defining what kind of partnership you want from those 2 roles and how the rest of the team can help them build that partnership. Do you want the striker to lay off for an on rushing AM? Do you want both producing even numbers? Do you want the Striker to be the focal point and the AM to be your creator? etc.

For me, my 4-4-1-1 is all about my striker being my focal point and the team being built around him, so if that's your plan, you need a good all round striker that can switch between roles depending on how the game is going. For me with Wolves, Raul Jimenez is perfect for this. To suit this, I want my AM to be on support to bring the rest of the team in to play so that they can all provide for Jimenez. 

From the RM slot, my WGR(A) has plenty of the pitch to run in to, meaning that when he does set off on one of his runs, there's always support for him by the time he gets near the box.

Out on the left, I overlap with my FB to make sure all of our play doesn't go down the right, meaning Traore doesn't just get marked out of the game. The overlapping full back also allows my IW to find pockets of space cutting in from the left. 

Moutinho in the AM(S) then has the role of linking everything together. He's clever enough to drop in to the right positions to play the right passes either in to the wide players or the oncoming BBM or directly in to the striker himself.

Moutinho and Traore currently have 9 assists each, with Jimenez sitting on 20 goals in 27 starts, with us currently sitting in 5th with 5 games to go.

Just what's working for me, hope this helps in anyway.

[Tsuru]

5 horas atrás, olegmelnikov disse:

Happy to see discussion about 4411

Based on your experience with 4411, how CM on support interacts with AM on support? Won't they operate the same space?  

I think it depends a lot - PPMs, mentality, player instructions, team instructions, the team you are playing against etc. That´s why I prefer to give a look at the field and try to figure what is happening.

[GSTG]

2 hours ago, smplfc123 said:

I'll show you the whole set up, so that it can be explained better than those 2 roles in isolation,

                PF(A)                                                       Positive Mentality - TI's In Possession - Play Out Of Defence and Overlap left.
             
                AM(S)

IW(S)  DLP(D) BBM WG(A)

WB(S) CD(D)  BPD(D) FB(S)

              SK(D)

For me it's defining what kind of partnership you want from those 2 roles and how the rest of the team can help them build that partnership. Do you want the striker to lay off for an on rushing AM? Do you want both producing even numbers? Do you want the Striker to be the focal point and the AM to be your creator? etc.

For me, my 4-4-1-1 is all about my striker being my focal point and the team being built around him, so if that's your plan, you need a good all round striker that can switch between roles depending on how the game is going. For me with Wolves, Raul Jimenez is perfect for this. To suit this, I want my AM to be on support to bring the rest of the team in to play so that they can all provide for Jimenez. 

From the RM slot, my WGR(A) has plenty of the pitch to run in to, meaning that when he does set off on one of his runs, there's always support for him by the time he gets near the box.

Out on the left, I overlap with my FB to make sure all of our play doesn't go down the right, meaning Traore doesn't just get marked out of the game. The overlapping full back also allows my IW to find pockets of space cutting in from the left. 

Moutinho in the AM(S) then has the role of linking everything together. He's clever enough to drop in to the right positions to play the right passes either in to the wide players or the oncoming BBM or directly in to the striker himself.

Moutinho and Traore currently have 9 assists each, with Jimenez sitting on 20 goals in 27 starts, with us currently sitting in 5th with 5 games to go.

Just what's working for me, hope this helps in anyway.

Looks well balanced, can you share rest of your TI's ?

[smplfc123]

Just now, GSTG said:

Looks well balanced, can you share rest of your TI's ?

That's my only TI's for in possession.

I have none for transitions to start with and they may vary as to who I'm playing against or how the game is going. If I'm a couple of goals up and I want to conserve energy, I may use 'regroup' for example.

For out of possession, again this can vary when playing certain teams. However my base tactic on how I want my team to play is to be compact and aggressive without the ball. To do this, I use a higher defensive line, higher LOE and extremely urgent pressing. For this to work however, I find you need the right players. At Wolves i've got a starting 11 with great determination, stamina and fitness. But again, these shouts will change, depending on my opposition and how the game is going.

[Englishhammer]

7 hours ago, smplfc123 said:

I'll show you the whole set up, so that it can be explained better than those 2 roles in isolation,

                PF(A)                                                       Positive Mentality - TI's In Possession - Play Out Of Defence and Overlap left.
             
                AM(S)

IW(S)  DLP(D) BBM WG(A)

WB(S) CD(D)  BPD(D) FB(S)

              SK(D)

For me it's defining what kind of partnership you want from those 2 roles and how the rest of the team can help them build that partnership. Do you want the striker to lay off for an on rushing AM? Do you want both producing even numbers? Do you want the Striker to be the focal point and the AM to be your creator? etc.

For me, my 4-4-1-1 is all about my striker being my focal point and the team being built around him, so if that's your plan, you need a good all round striker that can switch between roles depending on how the game is going. For me with Wolves, Raul Jimenez is perfect for this. To suit this, I want my AM to be on support to bring the rest of the team in to play so that they can all provide for Jimenez. 

From the RM slot, my WGR(A) has plenty of the pitch to run in to, meaning that when he does set off on one of his runs, there's always support for him by the time he gets near the box.

Out on the left, I overlap with my FB to make sure all of our play doesn't go down the right, meaning Traore doesn't just get marked out of the game. The overlapping full back also allows my IW to find pockets of space cutting in from the left. 

Moutinho in the AM(S) then has the role of linking everything together. He's clever enough to drop in to the right positions to play the right passes either in to the wide players or the oncoming BBM or directly in to the striker himself.

Moutinho and Traore currently have 9 assists each, with Jimenez sitting on 20 goals in 27 starts, with us currently sitting in 5th with 5 games to go.

Just what's working for me, hope this helps in anyway.

What’s the WG on the right? Spelling mistake for WP or WM?

[Lasson]

11 hours ago, Englishhammer said:

What’s the WG on the right? Spelling mistake for WP or WM?

I think it stands for ‘Winger’. 

[smplfc123]

Yes as @Lasson stated it's just for Winger. 

[Englishhammer]

1 hour ago, smplfc123 said:

Yes as @Lasson stated it's just for Winger. 

My bad, it’s because I only write W for winger in my notes but that’s probably just me in my little world. 

[HowzatFM]

On 29/01/2021 at 14:04, smplfc123 said:

I'll show you the whole set up, so that it can be explained better than those 2 roles in isolation,

                PF(A)                                                       Positive Mentality - TI's In Possession - Play Out Of Defence and Overlap left.
             
                AM(S)

IW(S)  DLP(D) BBM WG(A)

WB(S) CD(D)  BPD(D) FB(S)

              SK(D)

For me it's defining what kind of partnership you want from those 2 roles and how the rest of the team can help them build that partnership. Do you want the striker to lay off for an on rushing AM? Do you want both producing even numbers? Do you want the Striker to be the focal point and the AM to be your creator? etc.

For me, my 4-4-1-1 is all about my striker being my focal point and the team being built around him, so if that's your plan, you need a good all round striker that can switch between roles depending on how the game is going. For me with Wolves, Raul Jimenez is perfect for this. To suit this, I want my AM to be on support to bring the rest of the team in to play so that they can all provide for Jimenez. 

From the RM slot, my WGR(A) has plenty of the pitch to run in to, meaning that when he does set off on one of his runs, there's always support for him by the time he gets near the box.

Out on the left, I overlap with my FB to make sure all of our play doesn't go down the right, meaning Traore doesn't just get marked out of the game. The overlapping full back also allows my IW to find pockets of space cutting in from the left. 

Moutinho in the AM(S) then has the role of linking everything together. He's clever enough to drop in to the right positions to play the right passes either in to the wide players or the oncoming BBM or directly in to the striker himself.

Moutinho and Traore currently have 9 assists each, with Jimenez sitting on 20 goals in 27 starts, with us currently sitting in 5th with 5 games to go.

Just what's working for me, hope this helps in anyway.

I’m just finding that my AM(su) gets very little goals / assists? 
 

any advice? 

[smplfc123]

20 hours ago, benhoward12 said:

I’m just finding that my AM(su) gets very little goals / assists? 
 

any advice? 

Who is your starting AM and what roles are you using around him?

Maybe a screenshot of your team/tactics will help try and work out what more can be done?

Also, what do you class as very little goals / assists? 

Edited February 3, 2021 by smplfc123

[HowzatFM]

On 03/02/2021 at 17:38, smplfc123 said:

Who is your starting AM and what roles are you using around him?

Maybe a screenshot of your team/tactics will help try and work out what more can be done?

Also, what do you class as very little goals / assists? 

I was using the same tactic you posted above. Looking back the AM probably lacked enough quality
 

I then used a DLF(su), with a AP(A) behind him and an IW(A) on the left. The IW and DLF both scored 15 goals each
 

I would like my striker to score a few more so going to try a PF(A) with the AM(su) behind him now I have slightly higher quality AM.

I guess it’s just about finding the right balance overall! 

Edited February 11, 2021 by benhoward12

[smplfc123]

21 hours ago, benhoward12 said:

I was using the same tactic you posted above. Looking back the AM probably lacked enough quality
 

I then used a DLF(su), with a AP(A) behind him and an IW(A) on the left. The IW and DLF both scored 15 goals each
 

I would like my striker to score a few more so going to try a PF(A) with the AM(su) behind him now I have slightly higher quality AM.

I guess it’s just about finding the right balance overall! 

Ah that's good to hear @benhoward12!

Yes balance really is important I feel. It's not just a case of picking an AM and a St based on their own traits and attributes, but how they can work together as a partnership whilst introducing other attacking players.

My AM in my current save is dropping deeper and suppling a lot of balls to the wide players who in turn are getting the assists. It also means he's not too detached from the midfield to help out defensively, 

When we are playing teams we really should be beating, I'm experimenting with a Treq in the AM slot, as I don't feel I need him dropping back to help out the defence much and I want him finding those gaps the opposition very rarely leave when they try to attack us. 

[Experienced Defender]

@benhoward12 If you want advice and discussion on your tactic, you have to start your own separate thread. Because this one was started by another user, so only his tactic can be discussed here.

Please do so and you'll get feedback there.