Best defense, but ambitions are hampered by poor goal return

[Bunkerossian]

I am playing as AC Milan, and am sitting in 3rd place, before a series of massive clashes with Lazio, Juventus, and Inter. Results aren't horrible, but could be better. I've had several scoreless draws which left me in a weaker position points-wise than I would like to be in. It's a bit weird that I'm playing with a 4-2-3-1 and a 4-1-4-1, yet both are solid defensively, and impotent in attack. My best scoring game was against Napoli, where I certainly was not the overwhelming favorite. I beat them 3-0, but that must be them having left tons of space?

I get a lot of crosses and set pieces, but it is almost a rule that the keeper catches the header, or that everything flies over. Formations with 2 DM-s are particularly bad. 3 CB-s also give me grief, and it takes 20 shots to get 1 goal, on average.

4-2-3-1, with some frequent instructions. Ass. Mngr. had suggested higher tempo at some point, and since I had been struggling with goals from the beginning, I adopted it. Results are: no improvements or deteriorations in play.

4-1-4-1 also has variations, such as ApAt instead of a MEZ-At. Or a DLP-D when facing weaker opposition. CF-At is the preferred role of the young striker who has thus far disappointed. Ibrahimović is DLF-Su or At. I use distribution instructions depending on if strikers are willing to press or not. Picked this tip up reading on a post made by @Experienced Defender

Edited September 26, 2020 by Bunkerossian

[zyfon5]

39 minutes ago, Bunkerossian said:

I am playing as AC Milan, and am sitting in 3rd place, before a series of massive clashes with Lazio, Juventus, and Inter. Results aren't horrible, but could be better. I've had several scoreless draws which left me in a weaker position points-wise than I would like to be in. It's a bit weird that I'm playing with a 4-2-3-1 and a 4-1-4-1, yet both are solid defensively, and impotent in attack. My best scoring game was against Napoli, where I certainly was not the overwhelming favorite. I beat them 3-0, but that must be them having left tons of space?

I get a lot of crosses and set pieces, but it is almost a rule that the keeper catches the header, or that everything flies over. Formations with 2 DM-s are particularly bad. 3 CB-s also give me grief, and it takes 20 shots to get 1 goal, on average.

4-2-3-1, with some frequent instructions. Ass. Mngr. had suggested higher tempo at some point, and since I had been struggling with goals from the beginning, I adopted it. Results are: no improvements or deteriorations in play.

4-1-4-1 also has variations, such as ApAt instead of a MEZ-At. Or a DLP-D when facing weaker opposition. CF-At is the preferred role of the young striker who has thus far disappointed. Ibrahimović is DLF-Su or At. I use distribution instructions depending on if strikers are willing to press or not. Picked this tip up reading on a post made by @Experienced Defender

how many goals are you scoring on average per game? In terms of goal scoring, how do you compare against the rest of the league relative to your league position?

Your tactic does not look too problematic from first glance but the balanced mentality might be the reason why you are not getting more goals. Try moving the mentality to positive and reassess your tactic to see if it needs further tweaks. Also I like the second tactic a little bit more because the first tactic (4231) channels the attack too much on the left side with no one to take advantage of the space created at the right flank. The variety of attacking movements for the second tactic is also better.

[Bunkerossian]

20 minutes ago, zyfon5 said:

how many goals are you scoring on average per game? In terms of goal scoring, how do you compare against the rest of the league relative to your league position?

Your tactic does not look too problematic from first glance but the balanced mentality might be the reason why you are not getting more goals. Try moving the mentality to positive and reassess your tactic to see if it needs further tweaks. Also I like the second tactic a little bit more because the first tactic (4231) channels the attack too much on the left side with no one to take advantage of the space created at the right flank. The variety of attacking movements for the second tactic is also better.

I'm 10th in the league for goals. 9% conversion of shots to goals (17/192), 47% of shots are on target. I scored 3 goals only twice in a game. Most wins are 1-0. A few times I scored 2.

I have tried Positive against weaker opposition twice- it didn't help a lot. Most experts here cite Positive mentality as somewhat risky, when people post their tactics.

I have only one really threatening player who can play on the right AM slot (a left Winger/right Inverted Winger). There's a young winger too, but his performances have been rather mixed. Also isn't a natural goalscorer.

[zyfon5]

22 minutes ago, Bunkerossian said:

I'm 10th in the league for goals. 9% conversion of shots to goals (17/192), 47% of shots are on target. I scored 3 goals only twice in a game. Most wins are 1-0. A few times I scored 2.

I have tried Positive against weaker opposition twice- it didn't help a lot. Most experts here cite Positive mentality as somewhat risky, when people post their tactics.

I have only one really threatening player who can play on the right AM slot (a left Winger/right Inverted Winger). There's a young winger too, but his performances have been rather mixed. Also isn't a natural goalscorer.

have you tried lowering your tempo when you switch to positive mentality? I had a feeling that higher tempo on Positive mentality might result in your players rushing to move the ball forward too much

[Bunkerossian]

8 minutes ago, zyfon5 said:

have you tried lowering your tempo when you switch to positive mentality? I had a feeling that higher tempo on Positive mentality might result in your players rushing to move the ball forward too much

I had started out with neutral tempo settings, then switched over to Higher, hoping the advice of Ass. Mngr. would help. Lower tempo was actually a way to stabilize the game when opposition were creating chances. Not so much to help me score more. Even on Higher tempo I often see hesitancy to cross, or make a risky play.

EDIT: I tried tinkering with WB settings. I ended up going for Support, to enable the instruction Cross from Deep, but it wasn't super useful.

Edited September 26, 2020 by Bunkerossian

[Experienced Defender]

11 hours ago, Bunkerossian said:

The 4231 tactic - lack of penetration, which makes the higher tempo entirely illogical. Because the setup of roles and duties looks like a possession for the sake of possession style pf play. 

 

11 hours ago, Bunkerossian said:

The 4123 could be made to work a lot better with a couple of tweaks to roles and duties and possibly a couple of TIs as well, but definitely better designed than the 4231.

[Experienced Defender]

11 hours ago, Bunkerossian said:

Ass. Mngr. had suggested higher tempo at some point, and since I had been struggling with goals from the beginning, I adopted it

 

10 hours ago, Bunkerossian said:

I had started out with neutral tempo settings, then switched over to Higher, hoping the advice of Ass. Mngr. would help

Do not listen to ass man's advice. You are the boss, not him. You can take a look at his suggestions, but adopt them only if they really make sense. Which rarely happens, to be honest. 

[Bunkerossian]

4 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

 

Do not listen to ass man's advice. You are the boss, not him. You can take a look at his suggestions, but adopt them only if they really make sense. Which rarely happens, to be honest. 

It seemed like they might be sensible. On the first tactic, would putting the right Winger (or Inverted Winger) to Attack be of any help?

[afailed10]

5 hours ago, Bunkerossian said:

It seemed like they might be sensible. On the first tactic, would putting the right Winger (or Inverted Winger) to Attack be of any help?

Yes I'd try a winger on attack while also paying attention if the box 2 box is out of position when opposition initiates a counter OR if he gets too close to the AM-S.

The AM generally needs players moving forward and wide around him. With a DLF in front you could use perhaps an aggressive AM but it always depends what sort of player you have there. Does he have good finishing and composure? Can he play in small and crowded spaces?

[Bunkerossian]

2 hours ago, afailed10 said:

Yes I'd try a winger on attack while also paying attention if the box 2 box is out of position when opposition initiates a counter OR if he gets too close to the AM-S.

The AM generally needs players moving forward and wide around him. With a DLF in front you could use perhaps an aggressive AM but it always depends what sort of player you have there. Does he have good finishing and composure? Can he play in small and crowded spaces?

In the AM slot? Good dribbler, okay-ish finishing and Composure. Usually doesn't play well, though. The BBM is my joint top scorer with 3 goals.

Edited September 27, 2020 by Bunkerossian

[Experienced Defender]

9 hours ago, Bunkerossian said:

On the first tactic, would putting the right Winger (or Inverted Winger) to Attack be of any help?

Yes, either him (winger) or the AMC. I personally would prefer the latter btw. And do not change the winger (AMR) into IW (unless you tweak other roles and duties that would make such a change more logical). 

P.S: I assumed you were asking about the 4231 tactic. 

[Bunkerossian]

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

Yes, either him (winger) or the AMC. I personally would prefer the latter btw. And do not change the winger (AMR) into IW (unless you tweak other roles and duties that would make such a change more logical). 

P.S: I assumed you were asking about the 4231 tactic. 

I have used the IW role several times, and it has worked better than changing the AM to Attack. The IW has scored some important goals. However, the striker, whoever I play there, no matter if DLF or Comp. Forward, struggles to score. The BBM has specific instructions which make him very useful (Less Risks, Shoot Less Often, Tackle Harder, Get Further Forward).

[Overmars]

If you are the better team, playing balanced and without a more urgent pressing style will almost always result in your opponents passing around in their own half. They will be in no rush to push for goals against you, and you need to play with more urgency to push the issue.

Also, a WB, W, and MEZ all on the same side is overkill on the flanks.

[Bunkerossian]

4 minutes ago, Overmars said:

If you are the better team, playing balanced and without a more urgent pressing style will almost always result in your opponents passing around in their own half. They will be in no rush to push for goals against you, and you need to play with more urgency to push the issue.

Also, a WB, W, and MEZ all on the same side is overkill on the flanks.

I fount that a Mez-At helps connect the midfield to the striker a bit. I suppose I need to change other roles.

[summatsupeer]

I'm not sure what you've applied so just going to give my opinion on your starting systems.

On 26/09/2020 at 15:41, Bunkerossian said:

The duties suggest its meant to be a possession system, if so i'd reconsider playing Higher Tempo and Wider so they can have more time to move.  Whilst only on Balanced I'd still like to see some more possession based instructions even if only WBIB so they wait for better opportunities.  Though more movement I think will help create better chances, maybe from support duty forward and AMC making more runs or Be More Expressive to allow players more freedom.  I'd also watch for how often the W-Su ends up crossing into a packed box, if its a problem only then consider changing it.

The TI suggests its meant to be a faster attacking system, if so then I would definitely try to add some more urgency to the roles+duties with deeper runners to give earlier options for that higher tempo passing.

On 26/09/2020 at 15:41, Bunkerossian said:

The TI and roles+duties fit a bit better in this tactic.  I think the back 5 is a bit safe though, they look more like the base of a possession system but the front 5 and TI's are more for a faster attacking system. I'm not sure the MCR needs to roam with the CF-At + IW-At ahead of him, i'd rather the MCR was a CM-Su sticking to that area to link the left flank.  With that W-Su + MEZ-At combination it gives the DL options, could take more risks really overload that flank with another attack duty (DR + DMC should give enough cover).  Alternatively you could have him invert to help the midfield which could give the DM more freedom (one defend and one support duty) depend who you want to sit deep and who can take some more risks.

The issue I have here is too many ideas/options but the main thing is finding something that fits your players. Would need to know more about what you seen happen on the field rather than what roles/duties you've tried.  Whilst trial and error might end up giving you something that works, I prefer to fix a specific problem i've seen happening.

[Bunkerossian]

6 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

I'm not sure what you've applied so just going to give my opinion on your starting systems.

The duties suggest its meant to be a possession system, if so i'd reconsider playing Higher Tempo and Wider so they can have more time to move.  Whilst only on Balanced I'd still like to see some more possession based instructions even if only WBIB so they wait for better opportunities.  Though more movement I think will help create better chances, maybe from support duty forward and AMC making more runs or Be More Expressive to allow players more freedom.  I'd also watch for how often the W-Su ends up crossing into a packed box, if its a problem only then consider changing it.

The TI suggests its meant to be a faster attacking system, if so then I would definitely try to add some more urgency to the roles+duties with deeper runners to give earlier options for that higher tempo passing.

The TI and roles+duties fit a bit better in this tactic.  I think the back 5 is a bit safe though, they look more like the base of a possession system but the front 5 and TI's are more for a faster attacking system. I'm not sure the MCR needs to roam with the CF-At + IW-At ahead of him, i'd rather the MCR was a CM-Su sticking to that area to link the left flank.  With that W-Su + MEZ-At combination it gives the DL options, could take more risks really overload that flank with another attack duty (DR + DMC should give enough cover).  Alternatively you could have him invert to help the midfield which could give the DM more freedom (one defend and one support duty) depend who you want to sit deep and who can take some more risks.

The issue I have here is too many ideas/options but the main thing is finding something that fits your players. Would need to know more about what you seen happen on the field rather than what roles/duties you've tried.  Whilst trial and error might end up giving you something that works, I prefer to fix a specific problem i've seen happening.

Wide players cross too late, and crosses get blocked before they even get into the box. Also, there's barely any 1 on 1 chances being created. I know this is because the DLF is Ibrahimović, a slow and immobile player. The AM, even when tried with an Attack duty, usually ends up being anonymous. Same goes for the CF-At in 4-1-4-1. Headers going wide when I do get crosses in add further to goalscoring struggles.  Sometimes, I think a forward pass is possible, but my players go backwards with the ball.

Regarding urgency and deeper runners, I have a BBM with the instruction Get Furder Forward. What other suggestions do you have, on more active roles?

[summatsupeer]

3 hours ago, Bunkerossian said:

Wide players cross too late, and crosses get blocked before they even get into the box. Also, there's barely any 1 on 1 chances being created. I know this is because the DLF is Ibrahimović, a slow and immobile player. The AM, even when tried with an Attack duty, usually ends up being anonymous. Same goes for the CF-At in 4-1-4-1. Headers going wide when I do get crosses in add further to goalscoring struggles.  Sometimes, I think a forward pass is possible, but my players go backwards with the ball.

Regarding urgency and deeper runners, I have a BBM with the instruction Get Furder Forward. What other suggestions do you have, on more active roles?

A screenshot of that forward pass situation would help, could it be that players role/duty, attributes or traits?  If its multiple players then have you tried increasing the team mentality to encourage more risk taking and forward play if thats what you want?  I'm not sure telling a BBM to Get Forward in a 4231 adds a lot since there's already the 4 players who are looking to get in/around the box already.

I don't like talking about two tactics at a time, it gets confusing. Which one are you mainly using and have the best feel for what is happening? How do you want them to play? I couldn't tell for the 4231

[Bunkerossian]

2 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

A screenshot of that forward pass situation would help, could it be that players role/duty, attributes or traits?  If its multiple players then have you tried increasing the team mentality to encourage more risk taking and forward play if thats what you want?  I'm not sure telling a BBM to Get Forward in a 4231 adds a lot since there's already the 4 players who are looking to get in/around the box already.

I don't like talking about two tactics at a time, it gets confusing. Which one are you mainly using and have the best feel for what is happening? How do you want them to play? I couldn't tell for the 4231

I use the tactics based on opposition strength. Against better teams I use the 4-1-4-1. I would like to see more chances from inside the box, but it has to be said this is hampered by the way how my opposition defend. 3 CB-s are common, and 1 DM as well. A few teams have 2 DM-s, and in both cases I played a 2 DM formation, I had a goalless draw. I thought using a Mez alongside a CM-D in a 4-2-3-1 would help against these kinds of tactics, but no dice.

I've tried playing on Positive many times. Twice I started on Positive, and sometimes I switched onto it after Balanced didn't work, but the only time it sort of helped was vs. Atalanta, where I managed to beat their press, and force a corner which went in. My only indirect set piece goal so far. Headers seem frustratingly hard to score in this game, and so, I am hoping for more chances from open play.

[summatsupeer]

1 hour ago, Bunkerossian said:

I use the tactics based on opposition strength. Against better teams I use the 4-1-4-1. I would like to see more chances from inside the box, but it has to be said this is hampered by the way how my opposition defend. 3 CB-s are common, and 1 DM as well. A few teams have 2 DM-s, and in both cases I played a 2 DM formation, I had a goalless draw. I thought using a Mez alongside a CM-D in a 4-2-3-1 would help against these kinds of tactics, but no dice.

I've tried playing on Positive many times. Twice I started on Positive, and sometimes I switched onto it after Balanced didn't work, but the only time it sort of helped was vs. Atalanta, where I managed to beat their press, and force a corner which went in. My only indirect set piece goal so far. Headers seem frustratingly hard to score in this game, and so, I am hoping for more chances from open play.

Telling us what you've tried doesn't really help, we don't know what combinations were used or the players in them and what actually was happening.  Headers I have good success with if they're done whilst defence isn't organized, especially near/far post crosses with forwards+wide forwards who are quick and average jumping to allow there movement to beat the CB or have more chance against FBs.

I just looked through your player list to try and think of a setup i'd use for them and TBH, 3rds really good because I do not like any of your wide forward options which makes it hard for me to recommend anything.  Maybe they've developed differently then I think in my head though.  I'd focus on developing for Leao since he should still be able to improve rather than Zlat who will be declining.  He's a physical forward so i'd look to attack quicker with a wide forward on attack duty and a FB, maybe even a TQ in AMC with the CM pair both holding to add depth.  Have a think about movement patterns like overloads, over/underlaps, switch of plays and what your players can do then build them in.

[Bunkerossian]

16 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

Telling us what you've tried doesn't really help, we don't know what combinations were used or the players in them and what actually was happening.  Headers I have good success with if they're done whilst defence isn't organized, especially near/far post crosses with forwards+wide forwards who are quick and average jumping to allow there movement to beat the CB or have more chance against FBs.

I just looked through your player list to try and think of a setup i'd use for them and TBH, 3rds really good because I do not like any of your wide forward options which makes it hard for me to recommend anything.  Maybe they've developed differently then I think in my head though.  I'd focus on developing for Leao since he should still be able to improve rather than Zlat who will be declining.  He's a physical forward so i'd look to attack quicker with a wide forward on attack duty and a FB, maybe even a TQ in AMC with the CM pair both holding to add depth.  Have a think about movement patterns like overloads, over/underlaps, switch of plays and what your players can do then build them in.

Kessie is one of my best players, and this is why I jave kept the BBM role in the formations. I do have a CM(D) / DM (D) I bought, who is a good all-round defensive player. Lucas Torro is his name. Also, a young CB to improve Jumping Reach/Heading of my defense was brought in. Both have played well.

Leao has performed well in my previous attempts, but that was in pre-season. This is the first reasonable season I've had, and the kid just can't score. Would you recommend playing him as an Advanced Forward?

Regarding switches of play, my main DLP has that as PPM. He's excellent,capable of playmaking and defending, and with Kessie, easily creates a midfield duo that can perform well.

[summatsupeer]

2 hours ago, Bunkerossian said:

Kessie is one of my best players, and this is why I jave kept the BBM role in the formations. I do have a CM(D) / DM (D) I bought, who is a good all-round defensive player. Lucas Torro is his name. Also, a young CB to improve Jumping Reach/Heading of my defense was brought in. Both have played well.

But a 4231 really isn't built around a BBM, just because you put him in his "best" role doesn't mean its the best for him or the team.

Not sure why your saying you strengthened DM/CM and CB when I said the weakness appears to be the wide forwards?

2 hours ago, Bunkerossian said:

Leao has performed well in my previous attempts, but that was in pre-season. This is the first reasonable season I've had, and the kid just can't score. Would you recommend playing him as an Advanced Forward?

Pre-Season can be deceptive, the question is are you making chances he's good at finishing?  His goal scoring attribute definitely need work, he's not the type of forward to finish 1v1 (looking at him in my game), he really needs others to put it on a plate for him.  He has good physicals though so fast attacks should give him space and hence I was looking at the wide forward options to see who else can attack quickly to help chip in with goals and creating.

He can play AF but how will that combine with the players around him?

2 hours ago, Bunkerossian said:

Regarding switches of play, my main DLP has that as PPM. He's excellent,capable of playmaking and defending, and with Kessie, easily creates a midfield duo that can perform well.

Maybe try to create an overload on the DLP flank to create space on the other flank for him to switch play to.

[Bunkerossian]

46 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

But a 4231 really isn't built around a BBM, just because you put him in his "best" role doesn't mean its the best for him or the team.

Not sure why your saying you strengthened DM/CM and CB when I said the weakness appears to be the wide forwards?

Pre-Season can be deceptive, the question is are you making chances he's good at finishing?  His goal scoring attribute definitely need work, he's not the type of forward to finish 1v1 (looking at him in my game), he really needs others to put it on a plate for him.  He has good physicals though so fast attacks should give him space and hence I was looking at the wide forward options to see who else can attack quickly to help chip in with goals and creating.

He can play AF but how will that combine with the players around him?

Maybe try to create an overload on the DLP flank to create space on the other flank for him to switch play to.

When choosing roles for players, I thought it was okay to put your best 2-3 players in roles they are meant for? To be fair, I might be able to play Kessie as a Carillero. Definitely not a holding role.

I thought I needed more options in terms of midfield destruction, and a better partner for Musacchio. I'm a cheapskate, so I bought no strikers because I'm waiting for Mariano of Real to get transfer listed (has happened after the transf. window).

Leao was finishing all kinds of chances in those pre-seasons of failed attempts. Now, he can't score any.

Would setting the attacking width to Narrow while instructing some wide players to stay wider confuse the opposition?

Not sure if throwing a bunch of attacking roles on the left side counts as overload?

[summatsupeer]

1 minute ago, Bunkerossian said:

When choosing roles for players, I thought it was okay to put your best 2-3 players in roles they are meant for? To be fair, I might be able to play Kessie as a Carillero. Definitely not a holding role.

Building a tactic around the 2-3 best players is not the same as just putting them on what the game recommends as there best roles+duties.

I totally disagree about Kessie. His strength is when you don't have the ball and he can press with his energy and aggression.  I'm not sure why the game rates him as a better BBM over a BWM.  Most of his BWM attributes are ~15 whilst many of the BBM attributes are ~12.

1 minute ago, Bunkerossian said:

I thought I needed more options in terms of midfield destruction, and a better partner for Musacchio. I'm a cheapskate, so I bought no strikers because I'm waiting for Mariano of Real to get transfer listed (has happened after the transf. window).

If your finding it hard to score, i'd focus on that side... aka the wide forwards unless they're better than I remember?

1 minute ago, Bunkerossian said:

Leao was finishing all kinds of chances in those pre-seasons of failed attempts. Now, he can't score any.

Is that down to the quality of the opposition?  Any old shot beating poor keepers etc?

1 minute ago, Bunkerossian said:

Would setting the attacking width to Narrow while instructing some wide players to stay wider confuse the opposition?

Not really, just makes your team play wider/narrower.  Wider isn't always better either.

1 minute ago, Bunkerossian said:

Not sure if throwing a bunch of attacking roles on the left side counts as overload?

There's no one way to do it and depends what the aim is.  The main thing is to get the DL forward sooner so the ball can transition down that flank.  The Roles+duties selected will affect what happens once the ball is there. If don't want crosses i'd avoid attack duties for the FB/WB, but could consider look for overlap/underlap to get him more advanced sooner without increasing crossing.  For a "natural" overlap use a support duty for the wide forward but if just trying to overload it could be an attack duty so he makes more forward runs.  Depends where/what you want him to do.

[Bunkerossian]

25 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

Building a tactic around the 2-3 best players is not the same as just putting them on what the game recommends as there best roles+duties.

I totally disagree about Kessie. His strength is when you don't have the ball and he can press with his energy and aggression.  I'm not sure why the game rates him as a better BBM over a BWM.  Most of his BWM attributes are ~15 whilst many of the BBM attributes are ~12.

If your finding it hard to score, i'd focus on that side... aka the wide forwards unless they're better than I remember?

Is that down to the quality of the opposition?  Any old shot beating poor keepers etc?

Not really, just makes your team play wider/narrower.  Wider isn't always better either.

There's no one way to do it and depends what the aim is.  The main thing is to get the DL forward sooner so the ball can transition down that flank.  The Roles+duties selected will affect what happens once the ball is there. If don't want crosses i'd avoid attack duties for the FB/WB, but could consider look for overlap/underlap to get him more advanced sooner without increasing crossing.  For a "natural" overlap use a support duty for the wide forward but if just trying to overload it could be an attack duty so he makes more forward runs.  Depends where/what you want him to do.

Well, BWM makes sense, but to be honest, I was trying to make that role work in previous games, and never could. I'm not sure in which formations is it a feasible role. BBM is easier to work into formations. I know there's a rule of sorts which says "no BWM in a 4-2-3-1".

I never expected goalscoring to be an issue. I was worried about defending during pre-season. A lot. Decision, Tackling, Jumping and Heading were listed as weaknesses in the Team Report when I began the save. TBF, the AI set up games mostly against big teams.

I suppose it was the youths of big teams he was scoring against? But he contributed to play more than Ibra. As an AF, he could bother the central defenders more often?

I don't actually mind crosses as long as they are sent in before the byline.

I got scared of the Overlap instructions, since many videos pointed out it can create issues, because natural overlaps already happen with some role setups. I actually use the Focus Play down the Flanks instruction, when facing 3-5-2 or 4-4-2 diamond. Mixed effectiveness.

[summatsupeer]

1 hour ago, Bunkerossian said:

Well, BWM makes sense, but to be honest, I was trying to make that role work in previous games, and never could. I'm not sure in which formations is it a feasible role. BBM is easier to work into formations. I know there's a rule of sorts which says "no BWM in a 4-2-3-1".

No idea where you've got that don't use BMW in 4231 rule from but i'd forget you ever read it.

I don't try to work any role into a formation, use the right role for the situation.

1 hour ago, Bunkerossian said:

I never expected goalscoring to be an issue. I was worried about defending during pre-season. A lot. Decision, Tackling, Jumping and Heading were listed as weaknesses in the Team Report when I began the save. TBF, the AI set up games mostly against big teams.

I suppose it was the youths of big teams he was scoring against?

Possible.  AI isn't great at managing condition, especially if players had internationals.

1 hour ago, Bunkerossian said:

But he contributed to play more than Ibra. As an AF, he could bother the central defenders more often?

He'll be more focused on running in behind them and into channels behind the FBs.  That could help overload them if you attack quick enough but once into the final third there won't be much space to run into.

1 hour ago, Bunkerossian said:

I don't actually mind crosses as long as they are sent in before the byline.

I got scared of the Overlap instructions, since many videos pointed out it can create issues, because natural overlaps already happen with some role setups. I actually use the Focus Play down the Flanks instruction, when facing 3-5-2 or 4-4-2 diamond. Mixed effectiveness.

Any instruction can cause issues, got to try them when you think its right.  If it doesn't do what you wanted then remove it.  Rashidi's recent videos on them really simplify them if your unsure, clearer than any words I can type.  Just a handy tool to have.

[Bunkerossian]

7 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

No idea where you've got that don't use BMW in 4231 rule from but i'd forget you ever read it.

I don't try to work any role into a formation, use the right role for the situation.

Possible.  AI isn't great at managing condition, especially if players had internationals.

He'll be more focused on running in behind them and into channels behind the FBs.  That could help overload them if you attack quick enough but once into the final third there won't be much space to run into.

Any instruction can cause issues, got to try them when you think its right.  If it doesn't do what you wanted then remove it.  Rashidi's recent videos on them really simplify them if your unsure, clearer than any words I can type.  Just a handy tool to have.

Are there ways to pin down the centre backs so they cannot respond to outside threats, and which striker roles best occupy the CB's attention?

[zyfon5]

3 hours ago, Bunkerossian said:

Are there ways to pin down the centre backs so they cannot respond to outside threats, and which striker roles best occupy the CB's attention?

Can you elaborate what you mean by pinning down the CB? Regarding the striker role to occupy the CB, you want a striker that is constantly looking to make a run behind so poacher or advanced forward or pressing forward on attack. Generally striker roles with the highest mentality and with get further forward PI.

[Bunkerossian]

3 minutes ago, zyfon5 said:

Can you elaborate what you mean by pinning down the CB? Regarding the striker role to occupy the CB, you want a striker that is constantly looking to make a run behind so poacher or advanced forward or pressing forward on attack. Generally striker roles with the highest mentality and with get further forward PI.

Force as many CB-s as possible to not react to runs from the midfield or the flank.

[denen123]

On 26/09/2020 at 07:41, Bunkerossian said:

I am playing as AC Milan, and am sitting in 3rd place, before a series of massive clashes with Lazio, Juventus, and Inter. Results aren't horrible, but could be better. I've had several scoreless draws which left me in a weaker position points-wise than I would like to be in. It's a bit weird that I'm playing with a 4-2-3-1 and a 4-1-4-1, yet both are solid defensively, and impotent in attack. My best scoring game was against Napoli, where I certainly was not the overwhelming favorite. I beat them 3-0, but that must be them having left tons of space?

I get a lot of crosses and set pieces, but it is almost a rule that the keeper catches the header, or that everything flies over. Formations with 2 DM-s are particularly bad. 3 CB-s also give me grief, and it takes 20 shots to get 1 goal, on average.

4-2-3-1, with some frequent instructions. Ass. Mngr. had suggested higher tempo at some point, and since I had been struggling with goals from the beginning, I adopted it. Results are: no improvements or deteriorations in play.

4-1-4-1 also has variations, such as ApAt instead of a MEZ-At. Or a DLP-D when facing weaker opposition. CF-At is the preferred role of the young striker who has thus far disappointed. Ibrahimović is DLF-Su or At. I use distribution instructions depending on if strikers are willing to press or not. Picked this tip up reading on a post made by @Experienced Defender

the first one(4231) looks nice,  imho. issues just might be the space designation. and crowding. The DLF definitely "jams" with the Amsu. There should be an interesting discussion on how roles interact in a 4231. It is the most popular shape in the game(think the stats were released  on twitter. I wish i had a screenshot of it) and it has taken a gradual resurgence, IRL,  with managers like Pep, Jose, Ancelotti and even Koeman opting for it. 

 

I think You have started with addressing some of the issues with using the shape. (1.) A Double Pivot = even though it is an advantage in a sense that it allows you to explore or be more adventourous, it also means that in opposition counter attacking situations, you're in trouble. Your right wing keeps your wide players close with their respective support duties, so youre good defensively, there. The BBM role can be a bit tricky. This is because it roams. I would suggest a more "less roaming" role there(BWMsu perhaps).  left flank can be a WB on attack, This is simply to force early width. 

(2.) Striker - AM relationship. 

i Think you need to sort it out. A more aggressive AM might help or a more advetourous ST can. Both are essentially creators and it defeats the purpose of having Either one of each(this is purely subjective, though. Some great teams have multiple creators, so yes, i may be wrong). However, you can assign a player to handle zone 14 and tell the rest to make runs to open spaces for the pass. Your AM can be a TRequartista with a slight tilt to the right(AMCR) so there wont be a "jamming" movement. Youd be playing with Two strikers essentially. ST can then be a CF-su/Dlf-su.  

 

YOu can dismiss all of these and just take from it, a deeper dive into the dynamics of the 4231. It should help, i hope.

Edited October 1, 2020 by denen123

[Bunkerossian]

8 hours ago, denen123 said:

the first one(4231) looks nice,  imho. issues just might be the space designation. and crowding. The DLF definitely "jams" with the Amsu. There should be an interesting discussion on how roles interact in a 4231. It is the most popular shape in the game(think the stats were released  on twitter. I wish i had a screenshot of it) and it has taken a gradual resurgence, IRL,  with managers like Pep, Jose, Ancelotti and even Koeman opting for it. 

 

I think You have started with addressing some of the issues with using the shape. (1.) A Double Pivot = even though it is an advantage in a sense that it allows you to explore or be more adventourous, it also means that in opposition counter attacking situations, you're in trouble. Your right wing keeps your wide players close with their respective support duties, so youre good defensively, there. The BBM role can be a bit tricky. This is because it roams. I would suggest a more "less roaming" role there(BWMsu perhaps).  left flank can be a WB on attack, This is simply to force early width. 

(2.) Striker - AM relationship. 

i Think you need to sort it out. A more aggressive AM might help or a more advetourous ST can. Both are essentially creators and it defeats the purpose of having Either one of each(this is purely subjective, though. Some great teams have multiple creators, so yes, i may be wrong). However, you can assign a player to handle zone 14 and tell the rest to make runs to open spaces for the pass. Your AM can be a TRequartista with a slight tilt to the right(AMCR) so there wont be a "jamming" movement. Youd be playing with Two strikers essentially. ST can then be a CF-su/Dlf-su.  

 

YOu can dismiss all of these and just take from it, a deeper dive into the dynamics of the 4231. It should help, i hope.

Interesting thoughts. I've changed Kessie to a BWM-Su before reading your post, and he's been doing well.

One completely non-tactical thing I've noticed, and was going to post is the use of the shout: Show More Passion. In several instances it got the team to play better, and after struggling to score vs. Parma at home for 70-something minutes, this, combined with a substitute with high Leadership, Teamwork and Determination led to him scoring 3 goals. Match ended 4-0.

I have no explanation how mental status can do that, but it seems my issues might not just have been tactical in nature.

Edited October 1, 2020 by Bunkerossian

[denen123]

31 minutes ago, Bunkerossian said:

Interesting thoughts. I've changed Kessie to a BWM-Su before reading your post, and he's been doing well.

One completely non-tactical thing I've noticed, and was going to post is the use of the shout: Show More Passion. In several instances it got the team to play better, and after struggling to score vs. Parma at home for 70-something minutes, this, combined with a substitute with high Leadership, Teamwork and Determination led to him scoring 3 goals. Match ended 4-0.

I have no explanation how mental status can do that, but it seems my issues might not just have been tactical in nature.

Oh, please make full use of shouts. Think we as FM coaches just assume it's just down to shape, TI's & PI's. Even in real life it demands more. 

 

Shouts are important as you have highlighted. I use demand more, if things get tough.

[Bunkerossian]

2 minutes ago, denen123 said:

Oh, please make full use of shouts. Think we as FM coaches just assume it's just down to shape, TI's & PI's. Even in real life it demands more. 

 

Shouts are important as you have highlighted. I use demand more, if things get tough.

Have you ever used Ibrahimović on this, or the few previous FM-s? He's lazy and utterly useless as a DLF.

[denen123]

8 hours ago, Bunkerossian said:

Have you ever used Ibrahimović on this, or the few previous FM-s? He's lazy and utterly useless as a DLF.

Yeah, i have. I didn't play him week in week out. He did really well for like a season or two. To be fair, he was not my lone striker. He also toggled between TM(my favorite role in the game) & DLF.