Help with 4123 - Leicester City

[charliecul12]

Hiya,

I'm looking to get some advice on how to set up/improve my Leicester City team tactically on FM20.

Have attached my current tactic below - not working in the slighest - 1 win in last 13 games - haven't scored in 8 of the games with no goals in the last 6. 20 goals conceded in the last 6.

My team shows zero creativity in the final third despite having good attacking players and when we do finally create a chance my players attempts are finishings are equivalent to a pass back!

On the other hand when the opposition get in and around my penalty area they are blasting in shots into the top corner from all angles! We seem very passive defensively - my left back seems to just let players run towards goal whilst he runs alongside of them!

We started the season well using the below tactic but then started to all fall apart.

The type of football I want to play is to dominate possession but to play quick free flowing football in the final third to create chances. Would be happy to sacrifice a bit of possession if meant we could be more free flowing and creative in the final third. Not necessarily precious about using this formation either although I do like the balanced nature of it.

I took over a couple years ago when they got relegated to the Championship and this year is first season back in the Premier League

Below is a screenshot of my tactic and also screenshots of my first choice 11 (first 11 players) and select squad players who are on the cusp of the first team.

Any help or suggestions will be greatly appreciated!

Edited April 20, 2020 by charliecul12
Added in additional sentence

[Justified]

Are you good enough to play WBIB against teams of a higher quality then yourself? I don't think you have anything fundamentally wrong with your tactic apart from maybe you're not adjusting to bigger teams? Personally I don't play short passing as I prefer not to stick to just passing to the closest player to the ball. "There is no long or short, just the right pass" as the saying goes. But that's again a personal preference. I'd probably look to get Gouri on IFat, could be lethal in the box and you're playing a DLFat anyways, might as well use him to set up a better finisher.

[charliecul12]

16 hours ago, Justified said:

Are you good enough to play WBIB against teams of a higher quality then yourself? I don't think you have anything fundamentally wrong with your tactic apart from maybe you're not adjusting to bigger teams? Personally I don't play short passing as I prefer not to stick to just passing to the closest player to the ball. "There is no long or short, just the right pass" as the saying goes. But that's again a personal preference. I'd probably look to get Gouri on IFat, could be lethal in the box and you're playing a DLFat anyways, might as well use him to set up a better finisher.

So you would recommend playing both a IFat and DLFat? 
 

My only concern there would be becoming less solid especially down the left hand side where I have a full back on attack.

 

I did try and take off work the ball into the box and be more expressive but we still looked absolutely clueless in the final third!

[Justified]

You have a DLPsu on the left as well which is a holding role so actually having the IFat and FBat on that side gives him loads of running options. Possibly the short passing is taking too long to get to the opposition box? Or maybe your DLF should be played on a support role to give you another support option? Try a few tweaks to passing and duties to see what works.

[Experienced Defender]

21 hours ago, charliecul12 said:

 

21 hours ago, charliecul12 said:

Any help or suggestions will be greatly appreciated!

Honestly, I do not see anything wrong in this tactic per se. And even after looking at your starting 11 player profiles - the tactic still makes sense. So I can only assume it needs just little tweaking. But only you yourself can sort out what these couple of tweaks should be. So you need to watch the matches carefully and take notes of what you observe. 

 

21 hours ago, charliecul12 said:

this year is first season back in the Premier League

Maybe this suggests that the tactic needs to be toned down a bit. It can be done in different ways, but whichever way you opt for - make sure you keep the overall tactical balance, which is good in your current tactic. 

[DimitrisLar]

my god those regens! very good players there m8. I think you have low attributes on teamwork to play good possession but ok. Check if slow tempo helps you. It worked wonders for me.

[charliecul12]

2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

 

Honestly, I do not see anything wrong in this tactic per se. And even after looking at your starting 11 player profiles - the tactic still makes sense. So I can only assume it needs just little tweaking. But only you yourself can sort out what these couple of tweaks should be. So you need to watch the matches carefully and take notes of what you observe. 

 

Maybe this suggests that the tactic needs to be toned down a bit. It can be done in different ways, but whichever way you opt for - make sure you keep the overall tactical balance, which is good in your current tactic. 

Many thanks for your advice (and to the others who give advice).

In terms of toning down the tactic what would you suggest in terms of areas to look at toning down a tactic for a newly promoted team?

[sporadicsmiles]

One thing I would say is to play Benmalek as the CM(A) for a bit. His plays one-twos can be very nice for that role, 

In terms of not scoring, I can understand it somewhat. Your DLF looks like he can become a bit isolated and useless in long attacking phases, when the defence is set. Which should happen since you have work ball into box. At that stage he becomes nothing but a target for crosses really. When he will excel is on the counter, and this is a phase you could look to exploit. Again, with long phases of possession, I can see most of your chances coming from crosses. The winger is going to cross, and the FB(A) is going to cross. The IF(S) will likely create space for him (which is pretty much all he will do in such phases). Which is fine in itself, But it can be a little one dimensional. 

The obvious question is why WBIB? It hinders one obvious set of chances you will get, which is pull backs outside the box to the CM(A). The DLF makes space for him by holding the CBs, so he should get the chance reasonably often. With WBIB that may be discouraged. 

Related to this, you are not really creating many overloads, which will give sides an easy ride when defending against you. They rarely have to commit extra players to defend a particular area of the field. The left flank, perhaps, at times. I'd think about how to get players attacking similar areas of the pitch to pull sides out of shape, and then work out which players you want to put into the space you create. Right now, I feel like you could struggle to create space, and that makes your attacking possession sterile. 

One thing you can do is be a more direct team when you play bigger sides. Do not play out of defence, do not use short passing, and aim to get the ball forward more quickly. Your DLF will do well like this, and he has players around him to bring into the game. If you notice a team committing a lot of people forward, consider this a valid option. 

Finally, you are a newly promoted side with a lot of youngsters. You can probably expect a tough season, because players do have to find their feet in high level football. 

[Experienced Defender]

3 hours ago, charliecul12 said:

In terms of toning down the tactic what would you suggest in terms of areas to look at toning down a tactic for a newly promoted team?

As I said, there are different ways to do that. Given that your tactic is fairly well balanced and pretty simple (which is good), the first thing I would try is dropping the mentality by just one notch - from Positive to Balanced. You may also consider giving Soyuncu the cover duty, given that you do not use offside trap and he looks like more defensively reliable of your 2 starting CBs. 

Make these 2 tweaks - mentality and cover duty - then play and see what happens. If there is no tangible improvement, report back what you have observed to see what further tweaks could be tried. 

[afailed10]

Excellent team. But I'd add more bite to the tactic. Change both Fb's to CWB-S since they have decent off the ball/dribbling and the physicals to pull it off. I'd increase pressing intensity a notch as well.

[charliecul12]

On 21/04/2020 at 22:26, Experienced Defender said:

As I said, there are different ways to do that. Given that your tactic is fairly well balanced and pretty simple (which is good), the first thing I would try is dropping the mentality by just one notch - from Positive to Balanced. You may also consider giving Soyuncu the cover duty, given that you do not use offside trap and he looks like more defensively reliable of your 2 starting CBs. 

Make these 2 tweaks - mentality and cover duty - then play and see what happens. If there is no tangible improvement, report back what you have observed to see what further tweaks could be tried. 

Made the changes suggested and things improved for about 10 games were we played good football and were scoring goals. And the usual thing happened that has happened every single time I appear to have found a tactic that works we completely regress and lose any idea of how to play attacking football.

I am completely at a loss - my teams just dont pass the ball with any sort of purpose its so slow for example the central defenders even when they have a easy pass on to a midfielder just pass it back to the goalkeeper. And my wingers rather than crossing dribble towards goal and shoot from stupid angles, my inside forward cuts in and shoots miles wide and when we dont finally create an opening my strikers are incapable of shooting with any sort of power.

Apologies for the rant but I just dont have a clue how to fix any of these issues nothing I have tried or any tweaks have worked for any period of time.

How often would you expect to have to tweak a tactic to keep it working? Because I cant keep one working for longer than 15/20 games even when they are simple and make sense from a distribution of roles.

[Experienced Defender]

29 minutes ago, charliecul12 said:

How often would you expect to have to tweak a tactic to keep it working?

When you start overachieving. the AI will usually begin to approach matches against you with more caution and respect and will therefore look to adapt its tactic accordingly. I don't know what exactly your tactic looks like at the moment, so I am just guessing based on how you described the situation. 

Also an important question is how realistic you are when it comes to your expectations. Because - as far as I remember - you are managing a team that have just been promoted to the EPL. 

[charliecul12]

13 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

When you start overachieving. the AI will usually begin to approach matches against you with more caution and respect and will therefore look to adapt its tactic accordingly. I don't know what exactly your tactic looks like at the moment, so I am just guessing based on how you described the situation. 

Also an important question is how realistic you are when it comes to your expectations. Because - as far as I remember - you are managing a team that have just been promoted to the EPL. 

Current tactic below.

Just finished the season (2nd season since being promoted) and actually in terms of league position I finished 8th which was pretty good in terms of where you would expect a team in its second season after promotion to finish. Its more the style of play that I find so frustrating - I have a host of good attacking players but just dont create chances or score goals. Finished the season with a winless run of 9 games and only scored 6 goals in those games and didnt look like scoring any more than those 6!

[Experienced Defender]

13 minutes ago, charliecul12 said:

Just finished the season (2nd season since being promoted) and actually in terms of league position I finished 8th which was pretty good in terms of where you would expect a team in its second season after promotion to finish

That's a great achievement, whatever you may think. 

 

14 minutes ago, charliecul12 said:

Its more the style of play that I find so frustrating

When it comes specifically to your tactic, there are 2 tweaks I would definitely make first - changing the IF's duty to support and the striker's to attack.

Whether or not some tweaks may also be needed in terms of instructions - that's something only you can figure out watching your matches. 

[Djuicer]

Try to mix it up on the right side. The winger on support and central midfield on attack is a good combo. But when the CMa moves forward there is a slot that can be filled in midfield. Try out the inverted wing back. Its a great role (with the right player).

 

[Experienced Defender]

Just now, Djuicer said:

But when the CMa moves forward there is a slot that can be filled in midfield. Try out the inverted wing back. Its a great role (with the right player)

I absolutely agree with this (and that's one of my favorite role combinations). However, the problem is that IWB as a role can be pretty demanding, so he needs to make sure his fullback is good enough to play it. 

[charliecul12]

2 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

I absolutely agree with this (and that's one of my favorite role combinations). However, the problem is that IWB as a role can be pretty demanding, so he needs to make sure his fullback is good enough to play it. 

Thanks Both - below is my full back would he be considered a good option as inverted full back? And on what duty would you suggest?

Thanks

 

[Djuicer]

Just now, Experienced Defender said:

I absolutely agree with this (and that's one of my favorite role combinations). However, the problem is that IWB as a role can be pretty demanding, so he needs to make sure his fullback is good enough to play it. 

If Bogle is at the same level as in the earlier post he should be able to pull it off. A little warning though, Bogle runs down the right and hugs the line, might not be much inside movement anyway.

[Djuicer]

Just now, charliecul12 said:

Thanks Both - below is my full back would he be considered a good option as inverted full back? And on what duty would you suggest?

Thanks

 

Thats an amazing inverted wing back. I would test support duty first.

[Experienced Defender]

10 hours ago, charliecul12 said:

 

10 hours ago, charliecul12 said:

would he be considered a good option as inverted full back? And on what duty would you suggest?

I think this guy should be able to play decently as an IWB. The most logical duty in your current setup would be support (with CM on attack and winger on support in front of him and DM on defend duty). So test him as an IWB support and see how he fares in the role. If you notice some serious issus, switch him back to a regular FB on support. 

[charliecul12]

Many thanks both - I will give this a try tonight and see how it goes.

[retrodude09]

On 28/04/2020 at 14:50, Experienced Defender said:

When it comes specifically to your tactic, there are 2 tweaks I would definitely make first - changing the IF's duty to support and the striker's to attack.

Whether or not some tweaks may also be needed in terms of instructions - that's something only you can figure out watching your matches. 

ED - I'm curious as to why you would change the IF to Support & the DLF to Attack? 

[Experienced Defender]

13 hours ago, retrodude09 said:

ED - I'm curious as to why you would change the IF to Support & the DLF to Attack? 

As is always the case in my tactics - for better balance. Because he already has an attacking FB on that flank, so with IF on support (instead of attack), it's not just more stable defensively but also creates a natural overlap. Plus, the DLP is less likely to end up without viable passing options when he has the IF/IW on support duty on his side. 

Changing the DLF to attack is a direct consequence of changing the IF to support - as I still want penetration up front, just more centrally focused. 

But if he played a WB on support instead of FB on attack, that would be a different story:

              DLFsu

IFat

        DLPsu   CMat

WBsu

[charliecul12]

Just about ready to throw my laptop out of the window and give up on the game altogther!

Just cant score goals and no idea how to get my team scoring goals! Plenty of quality attacking players but only 24 goals in 28 games.

I use simple logical tactics with players in the right positions and have tried making small tweaks to try and solve the issue but no difference.

Strikers with good finishing and composure stats in great positions never taking chances and normally just rolling the ball back to the goalkeeper. Wingers either not crossing or take an age to get a cross in. Wingers and full backs not squaring the ball when other players in great positions and easy to find. Players shooting miles wide from stupid positions even when there are players in much better positions and a simple pass would find them.

I have just completely run out of ideas - any help anyone can give on how to score more goals will be greatly appreciated otherwise I think that will be it for me with this game - does seem unfeasibly difficult to score goals on this game.

[retrodude09]

I'm currently playing as Leicester. Finished 3rd in my 1st season & currently 7th 2nd season (partly because I tried changing from my 4-3-3 to a 4-2-3-1 that killed us). I've been using a 4-3-3 & just went on an 18 game unbeaten run (12W 6D). It looks something like this:

PF (A)

IF (S)                               W (S)

BBM (S) - Mez (A)

DM (D)

WB (S) - CD (D) - CD (D) - IWB (S)

SK (S)

Positive; Shorter Passing; Higher Tempo; PoD; WBiB. Counter-Press; Counter. Much Higher DL & LOE; Offside Trap